I don't think I could ever be a full-time recording engineer, as I don't
like a huge chunk of what's apparently popular. It seems to me that one of
the drawbacks of trying to make a living in the recording industry is that
as hard as I hear people say it is to make any money, you would have to take
projects on music that you don't care for. Yes? No? Also what about dealing
with the variety of knuckleheads that often seem to gravitate toward musical
circles?

Do any of you have so much work/cashflow coming in that you never do a
project you don't care for?

On the subject of knuckleheads, as an example on a small-time basis - a
friend who does music production referred someone to me since the nature of
what they told my friend they wanted to do was outside the scope of their
niche. I was told that this girl wanted to record a couple of Christmas
songs to give to her friends and family as a Christmas card. Okay, seemed
like something I could handle.

Turns out, what this girl wanted to do wasn't just a vanity track or two,
but record an *album* of Christmas songs, with full orchestral arrangements.
And she wanted to have it "in the stores in time for Christmas". By "the
stores" she meant the major retail outlets, Walmart, Best Buy etc. It was
October when I was presented with this.

Obviously, neither this girl nor her mother had a clue on earth. Do you ever
have successful projects with people like this?

Doc wrote:

Do any of you have so much work/cashflow coming in that you never do a
project you don't care for?

No, but I do have enough work coming in that I can turn town projects
that I know will be disasters.

I still work with a group we fondly refer to as "the choir that can't
sing." They pay a little more than the standard rate, and they pay on
time. Their money is good.

I turn down offers to cut dance and rap vinyl. Not because I don't like
the music, but because I don't understand the music and so I don't think
I could do justice to it.

On the subject of knuckleheads, as an example on a small-time basis - a
friend who does music production referred someone to me since the nature of
what they told my friend they wanted to do was outside the scope of their
niche. I was told that this girl wanted to record a couple of Christmas
songs to give to her friends and family as a Christmas card. Okay, seemed
like something I could handle.

Turns out, what this girl wanted to do wasn't just a vanity track or two,
but record an *album* of Christmas songs, with full orchestral arrangements.
And she wanted to have it "in the stores in time for Christmas". By "the
stores" she meant the major retail outlets, Walmart, Best Buy etc. It was
October when I was presented with this.

Obviously, neither this girl nor her mother had a clue on earth. Do you ever
have successful projects with people like this?

These people don't have successful projects. At least not as successful
as they expect. But sometimes they have a lot of money and can afford
to pay for a vanity press job like that. I feel like taking their money
is the least I can do.

I do warn people that their job needs to be completed by August if they
want to be in stores by Christmas. I have a bunch of local semiclassical
groups that record Christmas albums in January when they are in good
practice for Christmas music.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I relish the opportunity to type on this issue. I was a recording
engineer full stop for 13 years. I can't remember refusing a project.
Well, maybe a few rap projects if those clients had actually been
serious- we used to turn down look-sees from rap artists (ok, kick me)
I found my interest in the average project declined fairly quickly
after my first year or so. My interest in pleasing the clients
remained quite high however, and I was always interested in furnishing
excellent results. After ten years I realized I didn't really like the
conventions of pop music at all- I'd only bought a handful of pop
recordings in my lifetime- and sought to direct my attention away from
mainstream-directed music. That limitation brought me away from audio
work eventually, the money was just not there.

I have wanted to share my knucklehead stories for a long time. Just a
short one. I mixed an album for a well-known producer who talked on the
phone 8 hours a day for two weeks, while polishing off a case of
Coronas each day. The only article of studio equipment he touched was
the wheel of an H3000, and had almost nothing to say about levels, EQ,
panning, effects. When the studio got the CD in the mail eventually, I
was credited as "Assistant Engineer." Incidentally, there was no
assistant engineer. Later, I did a record of East Asian music with an
(apparently) well-known musicologist with an impressive resume and
discography. He spent the sessions screaming at his musicians, many of
whom had just gotten in from 14 hour flights and hadn't slept in days.
He made a female komongo (I know it's spelled with a u, I don't want to
get sued) player weep and cry with his fanatical cruelty.

These are just the beginning. But back to the actual subject....
(sorry)

Alstead

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
I turn down offers to cut dance and rap vinyl. Not because I don't like
the music, but because I don't understand the music and so I don't think
I could do justice to it.

That gave me a good laugh! It's true though, if you understand
dance/techno/rap you generally can't produce "real music" well, and vice
versa. It's a delicate thing to explain to rap artists though.

Another amusing irony is how rap artists are more likely to show their
pimped-out studios in their music videos, when the recording could have been
produced just as well on a basic DAW. I wonder how much of their gear
actually gets used.

"Doc" wrote in message
ink.net...
I don't think I could ever be a full-time recording engineer, as I don't
like a huge chunk of what's apparently popular. It seems to me that one of
the drawbacks of trying to make a living in the recording industry is that
as hard as I hear people say it is to make any money, you would have to
take
projects on music that you don't care for. Yes? No? Also what about
dealing
with the variety of knuckleheads that often seem to gravitate toward
musical
circles?

Do any of you have so much work/cashflow coming in that you never do a
project you don't care for?

On the subject of knuckleheads, as an example on a small-time basis - a
friend who does music production referred someone to me since the nature
of
what they told my friend they wanted to do was outside the scope of their
niche. I was told that this girl wanted to record a couple of Christmas
songs to give to her friends and family as a Christmas card. Okay, seemed
like something I could handle.

Turns out, what this girl wanted to do wasn't just a vanity track or two,
but record an *album* of Christmas songs, with full orchestral
arrangements.
And she wanted to have it "in the stores in time for Christmas". By "the
stores" she meant the major retail outlets, Walmart, Best Buy etc. It was
October when I was presented with this.

Obviously, neither this girl nor her mother had a clue on earth. Do you
ever
have successful projects with people like this?

Yup, I was told "50's band needs a demo CD", but when I sat down with the
frontman he showed me the signed consent forms from the copyright owners for
18 songs from Pretty Woman to La Bamba, and he went on to say he had $2k
left in the budget to do the studio recording of the 11-piece band. When I
regained conciousness I said the first step was to record a live show for
pre-production and figure things out from there. Well it turns out the
subsequent two shows were at an excellent theater with great gear, the house
tech nailed the mix, the band was extra prepped and put on two flawless
shows. You guessed it, we cherry-picked the live recordings and it came
together freakishly well. They sold the first 1000 before they could place
an order for another 5000. They ended up paying me more than the cost of
the gear I used to record it.

I have a friend that has a cut-rate studio that can do pretty good work when
the musicianship allows, but most of the time he's recording half-assed punk
bands, everyone at once in one room with no pre-production. He does really
well at that all things considered, but his reputation will never get off
the ground floor because the recordings obviously aren't very impressive
overall. Still, he's always got work because every punk band and their dog
is in need of a sub-$1000 album...

Myself I'm diversified enough that I can pick and choose. If there's not
much going on, I'll take a tour of nearby towns, catch some new bands, and
offer to record live for free. It's the perfect promotional networking
tool. "Hi, my buddy told me to check you guys out, and I've got my
recording gear here, thought I might tape you. [look for heaviest piece of
gear in the van] Hey, nice Ampeg, lemme give you a hand with that..." It's
a good time, never fails to get some work which always leads to more, and I
write everything off. The hard part is keeping up with the after-show
festivities, and booze-cans don't tend to issue receipts...

Doc wrote:
I don't think I could ever be a full-time recording engineer, as I
don't
like a huge chunk of what's apparently popular. It seems to me that
one of
the drawbacks of trying to make a living in the recording industry is
that
as hard as I hear people say it is to make any money, you would have
to take
projects on music that you don't care for. Yes? No? Also what about
dealing
with the variety of knuckleheads that often seem to gravitate toward
musical
circles?

Do any of you have so much work/cashflow coming in that you never do
a
project you don't care for?

On the subject of knuckleheads, as an example on a small-time basis -
a
friend who does music production referred someone to me since the
nature of
what they told my friend they wanted to do was outside the scope of
their
niche. I was told that this girl wanted to record a couple of
Christmas
songs to give to her friends and family as a Christmas card. Okay,
seemed
like something I could handle.

Turns out, what this girl wanted to do wasn't just a vanity track or
two,
but record an *album* of Christmas songs, with full orchestral
arrangements.
And she wanted to have it "in the stores in time for Christmas". By
"the
stores" she meant the major retail outlets, Walmart, Best Buy etc.
It was
October when I was presented with this.

Obviously, neither this girl nor her mother had a clue on earth. Do
you ever
have successful projects with people like this?


I've had my share of bad projects. In those situations, I try to focus
on the people involved (if they're nice), the money coming in, the fact
that I get to do this for a living, the idea that I'm helping someone
else do something they want to do, etc. There's a lot to enjoy.
Sometimes all I can do is learn another "what not to do" to use or pass
along to someone else...

Mikey Wozniak
Nova Music Productions
this sig is haiku

I'm currently courting a regional symphony orchestra (talk about stepping
into the viper's nest!) and have been negotiating to do a DVD video + SACD
recording of their 60th anniversary concert this coming fall.

I attended a dress rehearsal last Friday, and the orchestra is top-notch.
Time was limited, but I took copious notes during the rehearsal and spoke
briefly with an orchestra administrator and the stage manager.

With symphony orchestras, there is a definate 'pecking order' and recording
engineers are in the 'untouchable' or 'dirty peasant' class. I was told that
I was NOT to talk to the conductor (not even introduce myself) or the
members of the orchestra, but that the admin staff and Orchestra Chair would
do the negotiating.

Well anyway, it gets more involved. It's a union orchestra. I have to sell
the members on the benefit to THEM. I'm not really in this particular gig
for the money, but more to put myself on the map as the next "Jack Renner"
of 24-bit audio. I told them that I wish to do an experimental recording,
trying out some miking techniques that I have in mind, and to vette out new
hardware. I also pointed out that I have a video production company and can
produce the whole show as a DVD video. The orchestra would be free to use
the video for self-promotion and I would be free to use the DVD as a resume
of my achievements in sound recording.

Given the union and the soloists, it's not cut and dried though. They said I
can't record the soloists (they're not part of the orchestra, but
internationally-aclaimed performers that travel and perform with many
orchestras). I, of course, would think that a vide/audio recording of an
event with the solos chopped out would look ridiculous, so I plan to use my
best negotiating skills to work out individual deals with each of the
soloists so that I can include the entire performance on the finished
product.

Logistics and mechanics also present a challenge: no dollies, nothing is to
move during the performance. That rules out jib cranes for aerial "float"
shots, and may preclude my plan to put a 'mic tree' in the third row center
seat in the audience. If that happens, I may be left with the only option of
placing eight mics in an arc around the conductor's podium. The stage is
cramped with scores of musicians up there, though it's over 50' wide.

I think I have camera angles figured out (one looking at the conductor from
a trap door in the stage background, another at stage left, looking through
an open panel, and two in the balconey for frontal shots.) The mics should
be less of a problem, but power is a concern (I may bring a UPS to make sure
the MOTU 896 never skips a beat in the event of a power dropout) and the
long extention cords that would be needed. I'm going to another rehearsal in
a couple weeks to iron out the other mechanical details.

Short term task now is to write a proposal to the orchestra chair and try to
successfully convey that I'm not doing this to rip them off and sell the
product for my own profit.

I could probably get small gigs relatively easily by just advertising in the
papers, but what passes for 'local' music is dreadful these days, and I
think doing a symphony orchestra is a wonderful thing, if I can pull it off.


--
Best Regards,

Mark A. Weiss, P.E.
www.mwcomms.com
-

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss wrote:
With symphony orchestras, there is a definate 'pecking order' and recording
engineers are in the 'untouchable' or 'dirty peasant' class. I was told that
I was NOT to talk to the conductor (not even introduce myself) or the
members of the orchestra, but that the admin staff and Orchestra Chair would
do the negotiating.

Wow, that's pretty amazing. And people wonder why more people aren't
interested in classical music. That kind of attitude is worse than,
well, lots of rock stars' attitudes!

- Logan

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...

Obviously, neither this girl nor her mother had a clue on earth. Do you
ever
have successful projects with people like this?

These people don't have successful projects. At least not as successful
as they expect. But sometimes they have a lot of money and can afford
to pay for a vanity press job like that. I feel like taking their money
is the least I can do.

I do warn people that their job needs to be completed by August if they
want to be in stores by Christmas. I have a bunch of local semiclassical
groups that record Christmas albums in January when they are in good
practice for Christmas music.

In this particular case, they hadn't actually considered how to get one's
album into major retailers. Last I heard, one doesn't simply go to Best Buy
and say "hi, I want to sell my albums here". Daughter says "Mommy, I want
to record an album" and Mommy says, "okay dear.." Nor had they an inkling
about securing the rights to distribute the songs that weren't in public
domain, how much work it is to create the orchestrations, nor how involved
it is to record and master the tracks, nor where finished CD's actually come
from.

Mommy was concerned about price and asked questions like "well, what if it's
just a little bit of orchestra". She never could quite explain what she
meant. I explained that I had to know exactly what they wanted to tell them
how much. That besides the huge amount of time it would take for me to do
the orchestrations then turn them into actual tracks off midi, it also
mattered whether they wanted me to be the one who actually recorded her and
mixed/mastered the whole thing or just create the tracks and wish them good
luck. I tried to explain the process to her in as fundamental terms as
possible but I don't think much of it sank in. I never heard back from them.

I could never hire out as an engineer (assuming someone was
interested). I've been on way too many crappy sessions as a guitar
player but at least on a session you can play your part and leave.
The engineer has to hear the thing way too many times, and also has to
be present for any drama that may take place.

Al

On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 00:35:58 GMT, "Doc"
wrote:

I don't think I could ever be a full-time recording engineer, as I don't
like a huge chunk of what's apparently popular. It seems to me that one of
the drawbacks of trying to make a living in the recording industry is that
as hard as I hear people say it is to make any money, you would have to take
projects on music that you don't care for. Yes? No? Also what about dealing
with the variety of knuckleheads that often seem to gravitate toward musical
circles?

Do any of you have so much work/cashflow coming in that you never do a
project you don't care for?

On the subject of knuckleheads, as an example on a small-time basis - a
friend who does music production referred someone to me since the nature of
what they told my friend they wanted to do was outside the scope of their
niche. I was told that this girl wanted to record a couple of Christmas
songs to give to her friends and family as a Christmas card. Okay, seemed
like something I could handle.

Turns out, what this girl wanted to do wasn't just a vanity track or two,
but record an *album* of Christmas songs, with full orchestral arrangements.
And she wanted to have it "in the stores in time for Christmas". By "the
stores" she meant the major retail outlets, Walmart, Best Buy etc. It was
October when I was presented with this.

Obviously, neither this girl nor her mother had a clue on earth. Do you ever
have successful projects with people like this?

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by Doc

I don't think I could ever be a full-time recording engineer, as I don't
like a huge chunk of what's apparently popular. It seems to me that one of
the drawbacks of trying to make a living in the recording industry is that
as hard as I hear people say it is to make any money, you would have to take
projects on music that you don't care for. Yes? No? Also what about dealing
with the variety of knuckleheads that often seem to gravitate toward musical
circles?

You're not there to "like the music", you're there to translate variations in air pressure to a storage medium in a manner that pleases your client... much in the way that a Gynacologist isn't going to turn away work because the client isn't a "Victoria Secret" model, we don't turn away work because we don't particularly care for the music... or at least we shouldn't.

Doc wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
Obviously, neither this girl nor her mother had a clue on earth. Do you
ever
have successful projects with people like this?

These people don't have successful projects. At least not as successful
as they expect. But sometimes they have a lot of money and can afford
to pay for a vanity press job like that. I feel like taking their money
is the least I can do.

I do warn people that their job needs to be completed by August if they
want to be in stores by Christmas. I have a bunch of local semiclassical
groups that record Christmas albums in January when they are in good
practice for Christmas music.

In this particular case, they hadn't actually considered how to get one's
album into major retailers. Last I heard, one doesn't simply go to Best Buy
and say "hi, I want to sell my albums here". Daughter says "Mommy, I want
to record an album" and Mommy says, "okay dear.." Nor had they an inkling
about securing the rights to distribute the songs that weren't in public
domain, how much work it is to create the orchestrations, nor how involved
it is to record and master the tracks, nor where finished CD's actually come
from.

So offer to do that from them. Tell them, "I can deal with your rights
issues and arrangements for $10k." Either they come up with a lot of
money or they go away. Every once in a while some of these folks actually
do come up with a lot of money.

Getting records promoted is their problem, not yours. But for, say, $20k,
I could get a promotion company in on it.

You can do anything, or alternatively contract anything out. All it takes
is lots and lots of money.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

If you're going to be in a union house, find out whom to
talk to, how to talk to them, and what you're going to do if
it becomes a problem for you. You may not be able to string
a cord, carry a case past the loading door, tape a cable
down, plug into the wall or even be backstage if you haven't
cleared it with them, or if you're not willing to pay for
crew. Not saying that will be the case - just a heads up.

Dealing with union musicians in terms of recording can be
touchy as you're learning. Much of what you're dealing with
has little to do with what YOU think would benefit THEM. It
has to do with their contracts, both local and national.
They violate their contract(s) - which usually contain very
specific language concerning recording - THEY could be in
deep kim chee. More than likely, it will work out for you,
but don't be too disappointed if it doesn't. That you say
you "aren't in it for the money" is a dead giveaway that you
are. Sometimes a good way to deal with organizations of this
type is to let them think THEY came up with the idea(s) and
approach you about it. On the other hand, if you're just
getting started and they don't know you, that's how you'll
be treated, as you've seen.

There's lots more, but you have plenty of time.



TM



Mark & Mary Ann Weiss wrote:

I'm currently courting a regional symphony orchestra (talk about stepping
into the viper's nest!) and have been negotiating to do a DVD video + SACD
recording of their 60th anniversary concert this coming fall.

With symphony orchestras, there is a definate 'pecking order' and recording
engineers are in the 'untouchable' or 'dirty peasant' class. I was told that
I was NOT to talk to the conductor (not even introduce myself) or the
members of the orchestra, but that the admin staff and Orchestra Chair would
do the negotiating.

Well anyway, it gets more involved. It's a union orchestra. I have to sell
the members on the benefit to THEM. I'm not really in this particular gig
for the money,

Given the union and the soloists, it's not cut and dried though. They said I
can't record the soloists (they're not part of the orchestra, but
internationally-aclaimed performers that travel and perform with many
orchestras). I, of course, would think that a vide/audio recording of an
event with the solos chopped out would look ridiculous, so I plan to use my
best negotiating skills to work out individual deals with each of the
soloists so that I can include the entire performance on the finished
product.

Short term task now is to write a proposal to the orchestra chair and try to
successfully convey that I'm not doing this to rip them off and sell the
product for my own profit.

Scott Dorsey wrote:
Doc wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message

In this particular case, they hadn't actually considered how to get
one's
album into major retailers. Last I heard, one doesn't simply go to
Best Buy
and say "hi, I want to sell my albums here". Daughter says "Mommy,
I want
to record an album" and Mommy says, "okay dear.." Nor had they an
inkling
about securing the rights to distribute the songs that weren't in
public
domain, how much work it is to create the orchestrations, nor how
involved
it is to record and master the tracks, nor where finished CD's
actually come
from.

So offer to do that from them. Tell them, "I can deal with your
rights
issues and arrangements for $10k." Either they come up with a lot of
money or they go away. Every once in a while some of these folks
actually
do come up with a lot of money.

To be honest, I've never dealt with this stuff either, but I know
there's more to it than showing up at the door of Best Buy with a case
of CD's and saying "where can do I put 'em?". Distribution, tax issues,
ISBN and bar code, licensing.

I'm not sure of the details but the local area Best Buys have or at
least used to have a section for local artists, essentially as a
community service where they can sell their vanity albums and bypass
some of the rigamaroll. But these people were talking about national
distribution. I'm sure they hadn't even thought as far as the where's
and how's of getting the cd's made, artwork, etc. I'm pretty sure they
were thinking on the order of a few hundred bucks, not multiple
thousands.

wrote:

To be honest, I've never dealt with this stuff either, but I know
there's more to it than showing up at the door of Best Buy with a case
of CD's and saying "where can do I put 'em?". Distribution, tax issues,
ISBN and bar code, licensing.

Yup, but there are guys who HAVE dealt with this stuff, and they will
deal with it for you. You just have to pay them. There are distribution
companies that will handle getting stuff into stores and getting promo
discs sent out. They aren't cheap (even if you do the envelope stuffing
yourself), but they'll do it.

I'm not sure of the details but the local area Best Buys have or at
least used to have a section for local artists, essentially as a
community service where they can sell their vanity albums and bypass
some of the rigamaroll. But these people were talking about national
distribution. I'm sure they hadn't even thought as far as the where's
and how's of getting the cd's made, artwork, etc. I'm pretty sure they
were thinking on the order of a few hundred bucks, not multiple
thousands.

In that case, they'll go away. But if you make a habit of telling people
what things really should cost, sooner or later someone will pay it.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I don't know about that being unable to understand "real music"
comment. I understand both, and do both. Although admittedly, not at
the same level.

Sounds like an Archie Bunker thing to me.

I spent a few years working on projects I tried to like but the results never
seemed to live up to the potential. The issue was often that the songs just
weren't that good. I got a lot better at capturing what was played accurately,
but the end result was still GIGO. I remember one particular session that a
friend booked with first-class musicians he hired to play a truly stupid song.
The sound was good, cool arrangement, the playing excellent, but the lyrics were
just embarrassing. I still keep the recording around to impress people (the
drummer was Sheila Escovedo with the rest of Pete's band), but the laughter
never fails as soon as the lyrics kick in.

I managed to find a way of recording much better music, but it involved giving
up on the idea of doing commercial recording for a living.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x---------- http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jay/ ------------x

Fletcher wrote:



You're not there to "like the music", you're there to translate
variations in air pressure to a storage medium in a manner that pleases
your client...

True...but you still have to understand the vibe to record it the right way.
For example different genre's want to hear a kick drum different ways, if you
aren't hip to it or even worse don't like it, I don't see how you could
become engaged in the process and give a client what they want. I guess I
just assume that is why people go with rock producers/engineers when they are
doing rock and R&B people when they are doing R&B( at least that is why I get
hired a lot of the times). Of course there are a few people that can cross
over genre's really well, but not many.

much in the way that a Gynacologist isn't going to turn
away work because the client isn't a "Victoria Secret" model, we don't
turn away work because we don't particularly care for the music... or
at least we shouldn't.

I sure hope that engineers work isn't compared to a GYO.. being as cold to
the reality of what you are doing as a doctor has to be isn't right.

PapaNate

As much as someone is willing to pay me.
Phil Brown

On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 06:12:53 GMT, "Mark & Mary Ann Weiss"
wrote:

They said I
can't record the soloists (they're not part of the orchestra, but
internationally-aclaimed performers that travel and perform with many
orchestras).

Many artists' contracts include rights for the venue to tape
the performance for archival purposes. Maybe you could
approach the venue and offer what they'd otherwise be paying
somebody (not much) for.

Good fortune; sounds like fun,

Chris Hornbeck
"Hum is more than just not knowing the words." -ha

"Fletcher" wrote in message
...

You're not there to "like the music", you're there to translate
variations in air pressure to a storage medium in a manner that pleases
your client... much in the way that a Gynacologist isn't going to turn
away work because the client isn't a "Victoria Secret" model, we don't
turn away work because we don't particularly care for the music... or
at least we shouldn't.

I'd rather be beaten with a chain than listen to rap, and various other
"styles" aren't far behind to me. About 98% of the time I switch or mute the
channel on SNL when they have their musical segments. I just never got into
the music a lot of my peers did. It's unfathomable to me that anyone ever
actually paid money to hear Kiss, Nirvana, whoever the hell that band is on
the Toyota Camry commercial where the son is trying to convince his dad he
didn't take it out the night before and gets busted when his dad plays the
radio, etc. I can't imagine being immersed in something I can't stand for
the amount of time it would take to record/edit/mix it. Besides, I would
think if I feel outright contempt or indifference to the music, surely it's
going to show.

It's funny when some bunch of headbangers is on one of the Late Night talk
shows and the host has to force out a vacant "hey guys that was great" and
you can tell it ain't his cup 'o tea.

"Doc" wrote in message
link.net...

"Fletcher" wrote in message
...

You're not there to "like the music", you're there to translate
variations in air pressure to a storage medium in a manner that pleases
your client... much in the way that a Gynacologist isn't going to turn
away work because the client isn't a "Victoria Secret" model, we don't
turn away work because we don't particularly care for the music... or
at least we shouldn't.

I'd rather be beaten with a chain than listen to rap, and various other
"styles" aren't far behind to me. About 98% of the time I switch or mute
the
channel on SNL when they have their musical segments. I just never got
into
the music a lot of my peers did. It's unfathomable to me that anyone ever
actually paid money to hear Kiss, Nirvana, whoever the hell that band is
on
the Toyota Camry commercial where the son is trying to convince his dad he
didn't take it out the night before and gets busted when his dad plays the
radio, etc. I can't imagine being immersed in something I can't stand for
the amount of time it would take to record/edit/mix it. Besides, I would
think if I feel outright contempt or indifference to the music, surely
it's
going to show.

It's funny when some bunch of headbangers is on one of the Late Night talk
shows and the host has to force out a vacant "hey guys that was great" and
you can tell it ain't his cup 'o tea.

So, do you make your living recording music? It is a serious question. My
commercial studio experience was in studios with 15 to 30 employees. The
staff and their families depended on the owners to provide a salary every
two weeks. We didn't have the luxury of choosing our clients according to
each engineer's musical tastes. I'm with Fletcher on this one, who said, in
effect, the engineer's job is to capture the sounds the clients create in a
way that pleases the client.

Steve King

"Steve King" wrote in message
...

So, do you make your living recording music? It is a serious question.

See the title of the thread and the original post.

"Doc" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"Steve King" wrote in message
...

So, do you make your living recording music? It is a serious question.

See the title of the thread and the original post.


Sorry. I read it but forgot. Yes, you would have a difficult time.

Steve King

On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 00:35:58 GMT, "Doc"
wrote:

I don't think I could ever be a full-time recording engineer, as I don't
like a huge chunk of what's apparently popular.

Liking the music is part of the motivation when you get started as an
engineer, but as you grow , you need to be verstatile and learn from
different genres.

It seems to me that one of
the drawbacks of trying to make a living in the recording industry is that
as hard as I hear people say it is to make any money, you would have to take
projects on music that you don't care for. Yes? No? Also what about dealing
with the variety of knuckleheads that often seem to gravitate toward musical
circles?

I have a harder time dealing with the "knukleheads" than with the
musical styles, and all styles have "knukleheads", even assholes.

Do any of you have so much work/cashflow coming in that you never do a
project you don't care for?

Yes, but I've taken on many that I didn't care for. Not working is
worse than working on bad music. Again, it's the bad people I avoid
the second time around, not the music.

On the subject of knuckleheads, as an example on a small-time basis - a
friend who does music production referred someone to me since the nature of
what they told my friend they wanted to do was outside the scope of their
niche. I was told that this girl wanted to record a couple of Christmas
songs to give to her friends and family as a Christmas card. Okay, seemed
like something I could handle.

Turns out, what this girl wanted to do wasn't just a vanity track or two,
but record an *album* of Christmas songs, with full orchestral arrangements.
And she wanted to have it "in the stores in time for Christmas". By "the
stores" she meant the major retail outlets, Walmart, Best Buy etc. It was
October when I was presented with this.

Everybody gets involved with those types of clients at one point or
another. You just have to tell them what's up, and how much it costs.
If they hem and haw, move on. Once again, it's the people you have to
gage. And get some money up front.

mark

In article ,
Steve King wrote:

So, do you make your living recording music? It is a serious question. My
commercial studio experience was in studios with 15 to 30 employees. The
staff and their families depended on the owners to provide a salary every
two weeks. We didn't have the luxury of choosing our clients according to
each engineer's musical tastes.

Well, there's "tastes" and then there's where you draw the line.

Some might do any gig whatsoever to pay the bills (and they might need
to). But do you have to draw the line somewhere? A photo studio might
draw the line for porn work. Or they might just draw it at "tasteless
porn". An internet provider might be willing to keep subscribers that
spam or do tasteless websites, or they might not.

There's gotta be a line like this for music recording. You don't
*really* take any client with any material, just because they can pay,
do you? I understand if you *do*, because I realize this is a hungry
business.

james wrote:

Well, there's "tastes" and then there's where you draw the line.

Some might do any gig whatsoever to pay the bills (and they might need
to). But do you have to draw the line somewhere? A photo studio might
draw the line for porn work. Or they might just draw it at "tasteless
porn". An internet provider might be willing to keep subscribers that
spam or do tasteless websites, or they might not.

I once worked at a place where they got a request to do some mastering
work on a neo-Nazi album. It basically was solidly full of offensive
lyrics like "Zyklon-B / That's what they use / Zyklon-B / It's the best
thing for the Jews."

Personally I thought it was so over the top that it was almost a parody
of Naziism, but the management decided to turn it down.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Good for them! Too much hate in the world as it is!!!!

Tom

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
james wrote:

Well, there's "tastes" and then there's where you draw the line.

Some might do any gig whatsoever to pay the bills (and they might need
to). But do you have to draw the line somewhere? A photo studio might
draw the line for porn work. Or they might just draw it at "tasteless
porn". An internet provider might be willing to keep subscribers that
spam or do tasteless websites, or they might not.

I once worked at a place where they got a request to do some mastering
work on a neo-Nazi album. It basically was solidly full of offensive
lyrics like "Zyklon-B / That's what they use / Zyklon-B / It's the best
thing for the Jews."

Personally I thought it was so over the top that it was almost a parody
of Naziism, but the management decided to turn it down.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Just roped into a great example of this.

Regularly record an audition-only youth orchestra with fine talent. Love
recording their concerts.

Every year they do a gala fund raiser. Recorded in a ballroom full of
people eating supper and talking. Recording a group only half-rehearsed
and uncaring of performance values ("Why worry? They aren't listening
anyway."). I spend days turd polishing.

I have to record the fund raiser to get to record the good concerts.

On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:05:10 GMT, "Doc"
wrote:

Mommy was concerned about price and asked questions like "well, what if it's
just a little bit of orchestra". She never could quite explain what she
meant. I explained that I had to know exactly what they wanted to tell them
how much. That besides the huge amount of time it would take for me to do
the orchestrations then turn them into actual tracks off midi, it also
mattered whether they wanted me to be the one who actually recorded her and
mixed/mastered the whole thing or just create the tracks and wish them good
luck. I tried to explain the process to her in as fundamental terms as
possible but I don't think much of it sank in. I never heard back from them.

I thought they wanted an orchestra? What's this midi thing?