Here's my restaurant audio system requirement:

- 12 speakers all playing the same source
- 3 seperate volume controlled zones (8, 2, and 2 speakers)
- 5 sources
- am/fm
- cd player
- dvd
- cable tv
- pc (mp3)
- all components will be mounted in a 19" standard cabinet

I need help on picking out the audio components (speakers, receiver,
amplifier, volume controls), and advice on how everything hooks up. I
don't need state of the art stuff, but I don't want crap either. In
other words, I'm on a budget so a cost affordable solution is key! I
have an 8 foot tall, 19" server rack that will hold all of the
components so everything should be able to mount right into that rack.
All the speaker cable is already run so that's all set. I need to be
able to play soft, background dining music as well as loud foreground
music for football games, and other big sporting events.

Any help will be MUCH appreciated!

Sorry, all the speakers should be ceiling mounted (11 foot ceiling).


wrote:
Here's my restaurant audio system requirement:

- 12 speakers all playing the same source
- 3 seperate volume controlled zones (8, 2, and 2 speakers)
- 5 sources
- am/fm
- cd player
- dvd
- cable tv
- pc (mp3)
- all components will be mounted in a 19" standard cabinet

I need help on picking out the audio components (speakers, receiver,
amplifier, volume controls), and advice on how everything hooks up. I
don't need state of the art stuff, but I don't want crap either. In
other words, I'm on a budget so a cost affordable solution is key! I
have an 8 foot tall, 19" server rack that will hold all of the
components so everything should be able to mount right into that rack.
All the speaker cable is already run so that's all set. I need to be
able to play soft, background dining music as well as loud foreground
music for football games, and other big sporting events.

Any help will be MUCH appreciated!

wrote in message
oups.com...
Here's my restaurant audio system requirement:

- 12 speakers all playing the same source
- 3 seperate volume controlled zones (8, 2, and 2 speakers)
- 5 sources
- am/fm
- cd player
- dvd
- cable tv
- pc (mp3)
- all components will be mounted in a 19" standard cabinet

I need help on picking out the audio components (speakers, receiver,
amplifier, volume controls), and advice on how everything hooks up. I
don't need state of the art stuff, but I don't want crap either. In
other words, I'm on a budget so a cost affordable solution is key! I
have an 8 foot tall, 19" server rack that will hold all of the
components so everything should be able to mount right into that rack.
All the speaker cable is already run so that's all set. I need to be
able to play soft, background dining music as well as loud foreground
music for football games, and other big sporting events.

Any help will be MUCH appreciated!

This is not a good idea.
If you make the rack into a bunch of shelves, and have a high volume blower,
it will work. But it would be better to just throw out the rack; it is not
an asset. Consumer equipment is not made to fit into a rack and still cool
properly.
Since you're talking quality, a receiver is not the answer. In order to
match impedances, you would have to hook the speakers in a series/parallel
arrangment, and use pads for volume. This is bad for quality.
The optimum way is with a bunch of professional, fan cooled amps. Each
amplifier should be able to handle as many as three 8 ohm speakers in
parallel per channel. These amps are not that expensive; they are available
from multiple sources. My favorite is Halfer; QSC is an inferior
alternative, but still vastly superior to a receiver for this app.
You will need two amps for the 8 speaker zone, and one amp for each two
speaker zone.

Ceiling mounted speakers are, at their very best, not very good. Ask
yourself what you expect to achieve.

wrote in message
oups.com...
Here's my restaurant audio system requirement:

- 12 speakers all playing the same source
- 3 separate volume controlled zones (8, 2, and 2 speakers)
- 5 sources
- am/fm
- CD player
- DVD
- cable TV
- pc (mp3)
- all components will be mounted in a 19" standard cabinet

I need help on picking out the audio components (speakers, receiver,
amplifier, volume controls), and advice on how everything hooks up. I
don't need state of the art stuff, but I don't want crap either. In
other words, I'm on a budget so a cost affordable solution is key! I
have an 8 foot tall, 19" server rack that will hold all of the
components so everything should be able to mount right into that rack.
All the speaker cable is already run so that's all set. I need to be
able to play soft, background dining music as well as loud foreground
music for football games, and other big sporting events.

The only part of this system that should take much thought is the speaker
connections. When you say that the speaker cable is already run, what do you
mean by that?

What are the speakers like, and how are they currently hooked up?

wrote in message
oups.com...
Here's my restaurant audio system requirement:

- 12 speakers all playing the same source
- 3 seperate volume controlled zones (8, 2, and 2 speakers)
- 5 sources
- am/fm
- cd player
- dvd
- cable tv
- pc (mp3)
- all components will be mounted in a 19" standard cabinet

I need help on picking out the audio components (speakers, receiver,
amplifier, volume controls), and advice on how everything hooks up. I
don't need state of the art stuff, but I don't want crap either. In
other words, I'm on a budget so a cost affordable solution is key! I
have an 8 foot tall, 19" server rack that will hold all of the
components so everything should be able to mount right into that rack.
All the speaker cable is already run so that's all set. I need to be
able to play soft, background dining music as well as loud foreground
music for football games, and other big sporting events.

Any help will be MUCH appreciated!

**By far the best method is to use 3 X 70 Volt (or 100 Volt) line
amplifiers. This will allow enormous flexibility and adequate fidelity for a
restaurant situation. It also allows for easy adjustment of the 3 zones. The
100 Volt line transformers allows adjustments to be made to individual
speakers, during and after installation. Using decent speakers and
reasonable transformers (on each speaker) the sound quality will be
surprisingly reasonable. In my setups, it is VERY easy to pick the
difference between FM radio and CD, for instance. Cost will also be
respectable. Here's a few suggestions, based on my experience with such
setups:

If you're using ceiling/wall speakers, choose models which have a small(ish)
bass driver (175mm) and a reasonable dome tweeter. If you're suing box type
speakers, then choose whatever you want, but smaller is usually better.
Smaller and more speakers is the key. You may require the addition of a
subwoofer, if you really require big bass (VERY rare, in most setups). There
are many brands available which will be suitable. Use more speakers than you
think you'll need. This will reduce the likelihood of 'hotspots' and give a
rather pleasant all over, even sound level. Nothing worse than a couple
sitting romantically directly under a single speaker, blasting out enough
level to suit people sitting 5 Metres away! Much better to reduce each
speaker's level, but keeping overall SPL at the right level.

Using several amps provides for a level of redundancy, not possible with a
single amp. Nothing worse than catering that big group of (big spending) ad
execs and finding that the amp has failed, it's 9:00 PM and no one can
service it. With some judicious re-wiring, one of the other amps can be
coaxed into doing double duty. This is easy with 100 Volt line amps.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

"Robert Morein" wrote

My favorite is Halfer;...

Hafler has tanked, mr. bad advice.
http://hafler.com/home/

"arny krueger" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
oups.com...
Here's my restaurant audio system requirement:

- 12 speakers all playing the same source
- 3 separate volume controlled zones (8, 2, and 2 speakers)
- 5 sources
- am/fm
- CD player
- DVD
- cable TV
- pc (mp3)
- all components will be mounted in a 19" standard cabinet

I need help on picking out the audio components (speakers, receiver,
amplifier, volume controls), and advice on how everything hooks up. I
don't need state of the art stuff, but I don't want crap either. In
other words, I'm on a budget so a cost affordable solution is key! I
have an 8 foot tall, 19" server rack that will hold all of the
components so everything should be able to mount right into that rack.
All the speaker cable is already run so that's all set. I need to be
able to play soft, background dining music as well as loud foreground
music for football games, and other big sporting events.

The only part of this system that should take much thought is the speaker
connections. When you say that the speaker cable is already run, what do
you
mean by that?

What are the speakers like, and how are they currently hooked up?

He seems to want something good. A series parallel connection is fine for
typical lousy quality, but he seems to want something better.

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
oups.com...
Here's my restaurant audio system requirement:

- 12 speakers all playing the same source
- 3 seperate volume controlled zones (8, 2, and 2 speakers)
- 5 sources
- am/fm
- cd player
- dvd
- cable tv
- pc (mp3)
- all components will be mounted in a 19" standard cabinet

I need help on picking out the audio components (speakers, receiver,
amplifier, volume controls), and advice on how everything hooks up. I
don't need state of the art stuff, but I don't want crap either. In
other words, I'm on a budget so a cost affordable solution is key! I
have an 8 foot tall, 19" server rack that will hold all of the
components so everything should be able to mount right into that rack.
All the speaker cable is already run so that's all set. I need to be
able to play soft, background dining music as well as loud foreground
music for football games, and other big sporting events.

Any help will be MUCH appreciated!

This is not a good idea.
If you make the rack into a bunch of shelves, and have a high volume
blower,
it will work. But it would be better to just throw out the rack; it is not
an asset. Consumer equipment is not made to fit into a rack and still cool
properly.
Since you're talking quality, a receiver is not the answer. In order to
match impedances, you would have to hook the speakers in a series/parallel
arrangment, and use pads for volume. This is bad for quality.
The optimum way is with a bunch of professional, fan cooled amps. Each
amplifier should be able to handle as many as three 8 ohm speakers in
parallel per channel. These amps are not that expensive; they are
available
from multiple sources. My favorite is Halfer;

Hafler's professional line is gone you twit.


QSC is an inferior

No, it's built like a ****ing tank and sounds just the same as Hafler or
anything else designed for flat response.

alternative, but still vastly superior to a receiver for this app.

That would depen on the receiver, since there are mult-zone receivers THAT
ARE HIGH CURRENT AS WELL.

You will need two amps for the 8 speaker zone, and one amp for each two
speaker zone.

Or one multi channel amp

Ceiling mounted speakers are, at their very best, not very good. Ask
yourself what you expect to achieve.

If he's using them for ambient music they are probably fine, I assume he
simply wants something that is better than a squak box. There are cieling
speakers made by some very well known companies that are more than adequate
for their pupose. Naturally you wouldn't know this since you only
pronounce, you never really listen or test. Anti-scientist thaT YOU ARE.

Thanks forthe advice. Here's some additional information:

Here is the rack we purchased:

http://www.hyannisweb.com/inventorypics/16226.jpg
http://www.hyannisweb.com/inventorypics/16231.jpg
http://www.hyannisweb.com/inventorypics/16230.jpg

Can you give me model numbers of the amplifiers you mentioned?

Thanks again....

I still haven't purchased the speakers. I ran the cable though. Each
speaker will cover roughly 100 square feet of floor space (they are
roughly 10 feet apart from each other). The wire run to each speaker
location is 16 AWG speaker wire. Hope that helps. Reccomendations on
decent speakers would be greatly appreciated. Thanks...

Trevor, can you send me the model numbers or website of the components
you mentioned? I am not going to need a subwoofer in my application.
Again, this is just for ambience music and the occasional sporting
event. Also, more info on my three zones:

- Zone 1 is the dining room. It's about 1,500 square feet and I have 8
speakers covering that area.
- Zone 2 is the lounge/waiting area which is about 50 square feet and
will have 2 speakers
- Zone 3 is the mens and women's room. 1 speaker in each bathroom

Again, all zones will play the same source and should be on seperate
volume controls. I feel that I have more than enough speakers to cover
the area. I found this component online that looks like it may do the
trick:

http://www.specotech.com/cart/produc....asp?prodID=46

What do you think?

wrote in message
oups.com...
Trevor, can you send me the model numbers or website of the components
you mentioned?

**Gee, you don't want much, do you? Seriously though, I am in Australia.
What I have available to me may not be the same as what you have. I can send
you details on local products, but I am not (with the greatest of respect)
going spend several hours out of my day finding parts for you in your
locality. You will need to do your own legwork. Make sense?

I am not going to need a subwoofer in my application.
Again, this is just for ambience music and the occasional sporting
event. Also, more info on my three zones:

- Zone 1 is the dining room. It's about 1,500 square feet and I have 8
speakers covering that area.

**Depending on shape and ceiling height, I would suggest you need a few
more. However, 8 should be adequate, but not optimum.

- Zone 2 is the lounge/waiting area which is about 50 square feet and
will have 2 speakers

**That should be fine.

- Zone 3 is the mens and women's room. 1 speaker in each bathroom

**Also fine.


Again, all zones will play the same source and should be on seperate
volume controls. I feel that I have more than enough speakers to cover
the area. I found this component online that looks like it may do the
trick:

http://www.specotech.com/cart/produc....asp?prodID=46

What do you think?

**Completely unnecessary, if you follow my advice.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

wrote in message
oups.com...
Thanks forthe advice. Here's some additional information:

Here is the rack we purchased:

http://www.hyannisweb.com/inventorypics/16226.jpg
http://www.hyannisweb.com/inventorypics/16231.jpg
http://www.hyannisweb.com/inventorypics/16230.jpg

Can you give me model numbers of the amplifiers you mentioned?

Thanks again....

I'm afraid Hafler went out of business.
You can use any fan cooled professional amp in that rack. Just remember that
it's not enough to screw it into the front. Most of these amps require
support from the rear as well.

I suggest these: http://www.qscaudio.com/products/amps/cx/cx8/cx8.htm
You'll be able to use the front panel gain controls to trim the output of
each speaker.
You will not need to use L-pads or other resistive gear, which kill sound
quality.

For a higher quality amp, look to Crown:
http://www.usspeaker.com/amplifiers-1.htm#Crown

wrote in message
oups.com...
Thanks forthe advice. Here's some additional information:

Here is the rack we purchased:

http://www.hyannisweb.com/inventorypics/16226.jpg
http://www.hyannisweb.com/inventorypics/16231.jpg
http://www.hyannisweb.com/inventorypics/16230.jpg

Can you give me model numbers of the amplifiers you mentioned?

Thanks again....

Take a look he http://www.qscaudio.com/products/amps/cx/cx8/cx8.htm

In article . com, wrote:
I still haven't purchased the speakers. I ran the cable though. Each
speaker will cover roughly 100 square feet of floor space (they are
roughly 10 feet apart from each other). The wire run to each speaker
location is 16 AWG speaker wire. Hope that helps. Reccomendations on
decent speakers would be greatly appreciated. Thanks...


There are practically no speakers made that are really good for this purpose.
Each speaker should have a coverage depending on its exact position. Having
many, like your planning is really good. They need to point at the people, not
straight ahead or away, except in the case where its a couple feet away.
I highly recommend stereo, unlike most all systems. Having 10 foot spaced
speakers is very good for stereo. The channels of course need to be staggered.
You also get much better high frequency resolution using stereo
vs mono. Having fairly small sized speakers using no more than 6 inch
drivers will work best. This then brings up the possible need for a separate subwoofer
system, which is no big deal. When I was looking at some B&W speakers some time ago for
a resturant, they definately didn't recommend using transformers for splitting loads. I
never tried using transformers, but they may be ok in some cases.

greg

"GregS" wrote:

There are practically no speakers made that are really good for this purpose.
Each speaker should have a coverage depending on its exact position. Having
many, like your planning is really good. They need to point at the people, not
straight ahead or away, except in the case where its a couple feet away.
I highly recommend stereo, unlike most all systems. Having 10 foot spaced
speakers is very good for stereo. The channels of course need to be staggered.


This whole thread has been filled with mostly dodgy advice.

A professional installation needs a qualified system designer and installer.
A distributed system like you describe should only use 70v or 100v
components. And running this kind of system should only be done to code - -
a mate of mine with a business did non-approved sparky work, and when the
place burned down the insurance refused to pay.

Get a professional and stop trolling around a Google group for "free" advice
- - that's usually what it's worth.

"Michael Conzo" wrote in message
...
"GregS" wrote:

"Michael Conzo" = "OFFICIAL RAM BLUEBOOK VALUATION", who is actually Brian
L. McCarty, a pest on rec.audio.marketplace, where he accuses innocent
sellers of various
misdeeds. He appears to be a pathological liar, with unknown motivations.

The "advice" he offers is bogus.

McCarty is the owner of websites http://www.coralseastudios.com, and
http://www.worldjazz.com, both of which have used fraudulent advertising in
attempts to attract investors. Both have been unsuccessful.

McCarty is an American expatriate, originally from the Chicago area, then LA
where he worked as a sound mixer,
currently living in Cairns Australia, where he manages the Baskin-Robbins
ice cream franchise located at
Shop G6, 59 The Esplanade
Cairns QLD 4870
07 4051 4034

McCarty lives in the Coral Sands apartment complex at 65 Vasey Esplanade,
Trinity beach, a bit north of metropolitan Cairns.

Baskin-Robbins Australia may be contacted at
.

you're area seems big, but you really think you
need 13 speakers? I think when it comes to
music in these places - less is more.
maybe you could do what they do in
some used record shops.
I've been to many used vinyl stores,
the best setup they
use is simple, dirty, and cheap -
get some small used polk monitors - the 5's -
$50 a set on ebay, buy 6 or 8 sets, a few will be
bad, they are small, and they won't stick out
too bad.
or something similar new, sony makes some
decent monitors in the $125 a set range,
nothing special, but they sound good.
The SS-MB350H is like $100 a set, they sound
decent.
trevor wilson gave you a nice technical
way to do it right - but the dirty way that will
still sound good,
I was in a record shop where they
did this and then I think they piggybacked a bunch (3 or 4)
of the same cheap
AV receiver using the tape out loop -
I was pretty amazed - it was the first public place
where the music was just right, not overpowering
or bright, and not too boomy and not too thin.
it was a tad stronger than "ambience" because
a customer would ask to hear something and they'd
play it off a turntable, or they ran FM..
I'm afraid the new stuff you're get is gonna
sound like every restaurant or bar or pub
I go to - thin, metallic, bright, and grating.
those little KLH and similar boxes they
hang - ugh. makes me grit my teeth.

In article .com, wrote:
you're area seems big, but you really think you
need 13 speakers? I think when it comes to
music in these places - less is more.
maybe you could do what they do in
some used record shops.
I've been to many used vinyl stores,
the best setup they
use is simple, dirty, and cheap -
get some small used polk monitors - the 5's -
$50 a set on ebay, buy 6 or 8 sets, a few will be
bad, they are small, and they won't stick out
too bad.
or something similar new, sony makes some
decent monitors in the $125 a set range,
nothing special, but they sound good.
The SS-MB350H is like $100 a set, they sound
decent.
trevor wilson gave you a nice technical
way to do it right - but the dirty way that will
still sound good,
I was in a record shop where they
did this and then I think they piggybacked a bunch (3 or 4)
of the same cheap
AV receiver using the tape out loop -
I was pretty amazed - it was the first public place
where the music was just right, not overpowering
or bright, and not too boomy and not too thin.
it was a tad stronger than "ambience" because
a customer would ask to hear something and they'd
play it off a turntable, or they ran FM..
I'm afraid the new stuff you're get is gonna
sound like every restaurant or bar or pub
I go to - thin, metallic, bright, and grating.
those little KLH and similar boxes they
hang - ugh. makes me grit my teeth.


Out our way MTX speakers are the norm for jukeboxes, unless
someone goes with the Bose system. The MTX speakers
might not be that bad except for the piezo tweeters, allthough
one can never really listen the them properly, unless you carry
a tall ladder with you. They are usually fixed in the upper corners
pointing at the opposite upper corner.

I think you gave some good advice on inexpensive speakers.
One should always check out those used speakers when received to
make sure they function, without buzzes. Shipping sometimes
causes driver failure if not packed well.

Some moght go for KLH for the cheapness, but I found those
to be horrible also.

greg