Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #56   Report Post  
Stewart Pinkerton
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bit-resolution and Clipping?

On 22 Dec 2003 18:13:29 -0800, (Dick Pierce)
wrote:

(Radium) wrote in message . com...
(Stewart Pinkerton) wrote in message ...
Which will of course have an output dynamic range of less than 22
bits, as with all available '24 bit' DACs...................


Why?


Well, now, think about it. What do YOU think 600 dB means?

Well, if you haven't gotten there, 600 dB means there is a factor
of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 between the amplitudes
of the smallest and largest representable signals. That's 10^30
power.

Fine, so figure out what THAT means.

Okay, didn't bother to go there yet? Fine.

Let's look at hooking up a h-fi system to this rather silly device.
Let's assume that you have adjusted the volume control so that the
very smallest signal this device can put out generates a sound that
is 1/100 as loud as the faintest signal you can hear, that is, at
a sound pressure level of -20 dB re 10^12 watt/m^2 (that's a trillionth
of a watt per square meter).

Fine. How loud can it play? Well, according to you, 600 dB -20 dB or
580 dB SPL. Great, what does THAT mean?

Well, if it's 580 dB above 1 trillionth of a watt, that's 10^27 watts
per square meter of acoustical power. Let's just, for the sake of
simplicity, assume the entire acoustical radiation is confined to that
1 square meter The amount of acoustic power you want to put into that
small area is something like 1,000,000,000,000,000 times greater then
the entire amount of electrical power consumed by the entire United
States for all conceivable and inconceivable reasons. And let's assume that
your speakers are pretty efficienct, say 10%. That means you are going
to have to find yourself an amplifier capable of putting out somewhere
in the range of 10,000,000,000,000,000 watts. Assume such an amplifier
is running at about 40% efficiency. How much power would you need?

Well, the entire output energy output of the sun is probably insufficient
to the task.

Got it?


Perhaps a simpler analogy would be that it represents rather more than
the dynamic range that you would experience if you were standing in
the New Mexico desert at midnight on a perfectly still night - and a
cruise missile exploded ten feet away........... :-)
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
  #57   Report Post  
Stewart Pinkerton
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bit-resolution and Clipping?

On 22 Dec 2003 18:13:29 -0800, (Dick Pierce)
wrote:

(Radium) wrote in message . com...
(Stewart Pinkerton) wrote in message ...
Which will of course have an output dynamic range of less than 22
bits, as with all available '24 bit' DACs...................


Why?


Well, now, think about it. What do YOU think 600 dB means?

Well, if you haven't gotten there, 600 dB means there is a factor
of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 between the amplitudes
of the smallest and largest representable signals. That's 10^30
power.

Fine, so figure out what THAT means.

Okay, didn't bother to go there yet? Fine.

Let's look at hooking up a h-fi system to this rather silly device.
Let's assume that you have adjusted the volume control so that the
very smallest signal this device can put out generates a sound that
is 1/100 as loud as the faintest signal you can hear, that is, at
a sound pressure level of -20 dB re 10^12 watt/m^2 (that's a trillionth
of a watt per square meter).

Fine. How loud can it play? Well, according to you, 600 dB -20 dB or
580 dB SPL. Great, what does THAT mean?

Well, if it's 580 dB above 1 trillionth of a watt, that's 10^27 watts
per square meter of acoustical power. Let's just, for the sake of
simplicity, assume the entire acoustical radiation is confined to that
1 square meter The amount of acoustic power you want to put into that
small area is something like 1,000,000,000,000,000 times greater then
the entire amount of electrical power consumed by the entire United
States for all conceivable and inconceivable reasons. And let's assume that
your speakers are pretty efficienct, say 10%. That means you are going
to have to find yourself an amplifier capable of putting out somewhere
in the range of 10,000,000,000,000,000 watts. Assume such an amplifier
is running at about 40% efficiency. How much power would you need?

Well, the entire output energy output of the sun is probably insufficient
to the task.

Got it?


Perhaps a simpler analogy would be that it represents rather more than
the dynamic range that you would experience if you were standing in
the New Mexico desert at midnight on a perfectly still night - and a
cruise missile exploded ten feet away........... :-)
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
  #58   Report Post  
Stewart Pinkerton
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bit-resolution and Clipping?

On 22 Dec 2003 18:13:29 -0800, (Dick Pierce)
wrote:

(Radium) wrote in message . com...
(Stewart Pinkerton) wrote in message ...
Which will of course have an output dynamic range of less than 22
bits, as with all available '24 bit' DACs...................


Why?


Well, now, think about it. What do YOU think 600 dB means?

Well, if you haven't gotten there, 600 dB means there is a factor
of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 between the amplitudes
of the smallest and largest representable signals. That's 10^30
power.

Fine, so figure out what THAT means.

Okay, didn't bother to go there yet? Fine.

Let's look at hooking up a h-fi system to this rather silly device.
Let's assume that you have adjusted the volume control so that the
very smallest signal this device can put out generates a sound that
is 1/100 as loud as the faintest signal you can hear, that is, at
a sound pressure level of -20 dB re 10^12 watt/m^2 (that's a trillionth
of a watt per square meter).

Fine. How loud can it play? Well, according to you, 600 dB -20 dB or
580 dB SPL. Great, what does THAT mean?

Well, if it's 580 dB above 1 trillionth of a watt, that's 10^27 watts
per square meter of acoustical power. Let's just, for the sake of
simplicity, assume the entire acoustical radiation is confined to that
1 square meter The amount of acoustic power you want to put into that
small area is something like 1,000,000,000,000,000 times greater then
the entire amount of electrical power consumed by the entire United
States for all conceivable and inconceivable reasons. And let's assume that
your speakers are pretty efficienct, say 10%. That means you are going
to have to find yourself an amplifier capable of putting out somewhere
in the range of 10,000,000,000,000,000 watts. Assume such an amplifier
is running at about 40% efficiency. How much power would you need?

Well, the entire output energy output of the sun is probably insufficient
to the task.

Got it?


Perhaps a simpler analogy would be that it represents rather more than
the dynamic range that you would experience if you were standing in
the New Mexico desert at midnight on a perfectly still night - and a
cruise missile exploded ten feet away........... :-)
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
  #59   Report Post  
Peter Larsen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bit-resolution and Clipping?

Per Stromgren wrote:

I can see the ad in front of me: "The new Gizmo 600dB amp will
outperform the sun!"


The multimedia speakers for PC's will get there first .... it was indeed
a well written and entertaining discourse Mr. Pierce delivered.

Per.



Seasons Greetings / God Jul

Peter Larsen


--
************************************************** ***********
* \\\\\\\ Quality Ascii handcrafted by Peter Larsen /////// *
* \\\\\\\ My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk /////// *
************************************************** ***********
  #60   Report Post  
Peter Larsen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bit-resolution and Clipping?

Per Stromgren wrote:

I can see the ad in front of me: "The new Gizmo 600dB amp will
outperform the sun!"


The multimedia speakers for PC's will get there first .... it was indeed
a well written and entertaining discourse Mr. Pierce delivered.

Per.



Seasons Greetings / God Jul

Peter Larsen


--
************************************************** ***********
* \\\\\\\ Quality Ascii handcrafted by Peter Larsen /////// *
* \\\\\\\ My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk /////// *
************************************************** ***********


  #61   Report Post  
Peter Larsen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bit-resolution and Clipping?

Per Stromgren wrote:

I can see the ad in front of me: "The new Gizmo 600dB amp will
outperform the sun!"


The multimedia speakers for PC's will get there first .... it was indeed
a well written and entertaining discourse Mr. Pierce delivered.

Per.



Seasons Greetings / God Jul

Peter Larsen


--
************************************************** ***********
* \\\\\\\ Quality Ascii handcrafted by Peter Larsen /////// *
* \\\\\\\ My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk /////// *
************************************************** ***********
  #71   Report Post  
normanstrong
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bit-resolution and Clipping?


"Dave Platt" wrote in message
...
Which will of course have an output dynamic range of less than 22
bits, as with all available '24 bit' DACs...................


Why?


Several reasons. Noise is one.

All electronics generate noise. One type, known as "thermal" noise,
occurs any time you have a resistance - the amount of noise depends

on
the resistance and the temperature. If you set the maximum output
voltage of your DAC to a useful standard level (e.g. 2 volts
peak-to-peak, as is fairly usual for CD players and other line-level
outputs), you'll find that the thermal noise generated by the
resistances in the DAC circuitry will be down in the 24-bit region.
If you try to resolve signals smaller than that, they'll be buried

in
the noise.


To get technical about it, noise is not dependent on resistance--just
temperature and bandwidth.
It is indeed = kTB, where k is a constant.

Norm Strong


  #72   Report Post  
normanstrong
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bit-resolution and Clipping?


"Dave Platt" wrote in message
...
Which will of course have an output dynamic range of less than 22
bits, as with all available '24 bit' DACs...................


Why?


Several reasons. Noise is one.

All electronics generate noise. One type, known as "thermal" noise,
occurs any time you have a resistance - the amount of noise depends

on
the resistance and the temperature. If you set the maximum output
voltage of your DAC to a useful standard level (e.g. 2 volts
peak-to-peak, as is fairly usual for CD players and other line-level
outputs), you'll find that the thermal noise generated by the
resistances in the DAC circuitry will be down in the 24-bit region.
If you try to resolve signals smaller than that, they'll be buried

in
the noise.


To get technical about it, noise is not dependent on resistance--just
temperature and bandwidth.
It is indeed = kTB, where k is a constant.

Norm Strong


  #73   Report Post  
normanstrong
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bit-resolution and Clipping?


"Dave Platt" wrote in message
...
Which will of course have an output dynamic range of less than 22
bits, as with all available '24 bit' DACs...................


Why?


Several reasons. Noise is one.

All electronics generate noise. One type, known as "thermal" noise,
occurs any time you have a resistance - the amount of noise depends

on
the resistance and the temperature. If you set the maximum output
voltage of your DAC to a useful standard level (e.g. 2 volts
peak-to-peak, as is fairly usual for CD players and other line-level
outputs), you'll find that the thermal noise generated by the
resistances in the DAC circuitry will be down in the 24-bit region.
If you try to resolve signals smaller than that, they'll be buried

in
the noise.


To get technical about it, noise is not dependent on resistance--just
temperature and bandwidth.
It is indeed = kTB, where k is a constant.

Norm Strong


  #74   Report Post  
Stewart Pinkerton
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bit-resolution and Clipping?

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 16:18:56 GMT, "normanstrong"
wrote:


"Dave Platt" wrote in message
...
Which will of course have an output dynamic range of less than 22
bits, as with all available '24 bit' DACs...................

Why?


Several reasons. Noise is one.

All electronics generate noise. One type, known as "thermal" noise,
occurs any time you have a resistance - the amount of noise depends

on
the resistance and the temperature. If you set the maximum output
voltage of your DAC to a useful standard level (e.g. 2 volts
peak-to-peak, as is fairly usual for CD players and other line-level
outputs), you'll find that the thermal noise generated by the
resistances in the DAC circuitry will be down in the 24-bit region.
If you try to resolve signals smaller than that, they'll be buried

in
the noise.


To get technical about it, noise is not dependent on resistance--just
temperature and bandwidth.
It is indeed = kTB, where k is a constant.


To get even more technical, noise *voltage* certainly is dependent on
resistance, even if noise power isn't.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
  #75   Report Post  
Stewart Pinkerton
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bit-resolution and Clipping?

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 16:18:56 GMT, "normanstrong"
wrote:


"Dave Platt" wrote in message
...
Which will of course have an output dynamic range of less than 22
bits, as with all available '24 bit' DACs...................

Why?


Several reasons. Noise is one.

All electronics generate noise. One type, known as "thermal" noise,
occurs any time you have a resistance - the amount of noise depends

on
the resistance and the temperature. If you set the maximum output
voltage of your DAC to a useful standard level (e.g. 2 volts
peak-to-peak, as is fairly usual for CD players and other line-level
outputs), you'll find that the thermal noise generated by the
resistances in the DAC circuitry will be down in the 24-bit region.
If you try to resolve signals smaller than that, they'll be buried

in
the noise.


To get technical about it, noise is not dependent on resistance--just
temperature and bandwidth.
It is indeed = kTB, where k is a constant.


To get even more technical, noise *voltage* certainly is dependent on
resistance, even if noise power isn't.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering


  #76   Report Post  
Stewart Pinkerton
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bit-resolution and Clipping?

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 16:18:56 GMT, "normanstrong"
wrote:


"Dave Platt" wrote in message
...
Which will of course have an output dynamic range of less than 22
bits, as with all available '24 bit' DACs...................

Why?


Several reasons. Noise is one.

All electronics generate noise. One type, known as "thermal" noise,
occurs any time you have a resistance - the amount of noise depends

on
the resistance and the temperature. If you set the maximum output
voltage of your DAC to a useful standard level (e.g. 2 volts
peak-to-peak, as is fairly usual for CD players and other line-level
outputs), you'll find that the thermal noise generated by the
resistances in the DAC circuitry will be down in the 24-bit region.
If you try to resolve signals smaller than that, they'll be buried

in
the noise.


To get technical about it, noise is not dependent on resistance--just
temperature and bandwidth.
It is indeed = kTB, where k is a constant.


To get even more technical, noise *voltage* certainly is dependent on
resistance, even if noise power isn't.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
  #77   Report Post  
Tony Roe
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bit-resolution and Clipping?

Dick - congrats on a great answer to someone who didn't appear to appreciate the
significance of logarithmic units.

On 22 Dec 2003 18:13:29 -0800, (Dick Pierce) wrote:
(Radium) wrote in message . com...
(Stewart Pinkerton) wrote in message ...
Which will of course have an output dynamic range of less than 22
bits, as with all available '24 bit' DACs...................


Why?


Well, now, think about it. What do YOU think 600 dB means?

Well, if you haven't gotten there, 600 dB means there is a factor
of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 between the amplitudes
of the smallest and largest representable signals. That's 10^30
power.

Fine, so figure out what THAT means.

Okay, didn't bother to go there yet? Fine.

Let's look at hooking up a h-fi system to this rather silly device.
Let's assume that you have adjusted the volume control so that the
very smallest signal this device can put out generates a sound that
is 1/100 as loud as the faintest signal you can hear, that is, at
a sound pressure level of -20 dB re 10^12 watt/m^2 (that's a trillionth
of a watt per square meter).

Fine. How loud can it play? Well, according to you, 600 dB -20 dB or
580 dB SPL. Great, what does THAT mean?

Well, if it's 580 dB above 1 trillionth of a watt, that's 10^27 watts
per square meter of acoustical power. Let's just, for the sake of
simplicity, assume the entire acoustical radiation is confined to that
1 square meter The amount of acoustic power you want to put into that
small area is something like 1,000,000,000,000,000 times greater then
the entire amount of electrical power consumed by the entire United
States for all conceivable and inconceivable reasons. And let's assume that
your speakers are pretty efficienct, say 10%. That means you are going
to have to find yourself an amplifier capable of putting out somewhere
in the range of 10,000,000,000,000,000 watts. Assume such an amplifier
is running at about 40% efficiency. How much power would you need?

Well, the entire output energy output of the sun is probably insufficient
to the task.

Got it?


Tony (remove the "_" to reply by email)
  #78   Report Post  
Tony Roe
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bit-resolution and Clipping?

Dick - congrats on a great answer to someone who didn't appear to appreciate the
significance of logarithmic units.

On 22 Dec 2003 18:13:29 -0800, (Dick Pierce) wrote:
(Radium) wrote in message . com...
(Stewart Pinkerton) wrote in message ...
Which will of course have an output dynamic range of less than 22
bits, as with all available '24 bit' DACs...................


Why?


Well, now, think about it. What do YOU think 600 dB means?

Well, if you haven't gotten there, 600 dB means there is a factor
of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 between the amplitudes
of the smallest and largest representable signals. That's 10^30
power.

Fine, so figure out what THAT means.

Okay, didn't bother to go there yet? Fine.

Let's look at hooking up a h-fi system to this rather silly device.
Let's assume that you have adjusted the volume control so that the
very smallest signal this device can put out generates a sound that
is 1/100 as loud as the faintest signal you can hear, that is, at
a sound pressure level of -20 dB re 10^12 watt/m^2 (that's a trillionth
of a watt per square meter).

Fine. How loud can it play? Well, according to you, 600 dB -20 dB or
580 dB SPL. Great, what does THAT mean?

Well, if it's 580 dB above 1 trillionth of a watt, that's 10^27 watts
per square meter of acoustical power. Let's just, for the sake of
simplicity, assume the entire acoustical radiation is confined to that
1 square meter The amount of acoustic power you want to put into that
small area is something like 1,000,000,000,000,000 times greater then
the entire amount of electrical power consumed by the entire United
States for all conceivable and inconceivable reasons. And let's assume that
your speakers are pretty efficienct, say 10%. That means you are going
to have to find yourself an amplifier capable of putting out somewhere
in the range of 10,000,000,000,000,000 watts. Assume such an amplifier
is running at about 40% efficiency. How much power would you need?

Well, the entire output energy output of the sun is probably insufficient
to the task.

Got it?


Tony (remove the "_" to reply by email)
  #79   Report Post  
Tony Roe
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bit-resolution and Clipping?

Dick - congrats on a great answer to someone who didn't appear to appreciate the
significance of logarithmic units.

On 22 Dec 2003 18:13:29 -0800, (Dick Pierce) wrote:
(Radium) wrote in message . com...
(Stewart Pinkerton) wrote in message ...
Which will of course have an output dynamic range of less than 22
bits, as with all available '24 bit' DACs...................


Why?


Well, now, think about it. What do YOU think 600 dB means?

Well, if you haven't gotten there, 600 dB means there is a factor
of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 between the amplitudes
of the smallest and largest representable signals. That's 10^30
power.

Fine, so figure out what THAT means.

Okay, didn't bother to go there yet? Fine.

Let's look at hooking up a h-fi system to this rather silly device.
Let's assume that you have adjusted the volume control so that the
very smallest signal this device can put out generates a sound that
is 1/100 as loud as the faintest signal you can hear, that is, at
a sound pressure level of -20 dB re 10^12 watt/m^2 (that's a trillionth
of a watt per square meter).

Fine. How loud can it play? Well, according to you, 600 dB -20 dB or
580 dB SPL. Great, what does THAT mean?

Well, if it's 580 dB above 1 trillionth of a watt, that's 10^27 watts
per square meter of acoustical power. Let's just, for the sake of
simplicity, assume the entire acoustical radiation is confined to that
1 square meter The amount of acoustic power you want to put into that
small area is something like 1,000,000,000,000,000 times greater then
the entire amount of electrical power consumed by the entire United
States for all conceivable and inconceivable reasons. And let's assume that
your speakers are pretty efficienct, say 10%. That means you are going
to have to find yourself an amplifier capable of putting out somewhere
in the range of 10,000,000,000,000,000 watts. Assume such an amplifier
is running at about 40% efficiency. How much power would you need?

Well, the entire output energy output of the sun is probably insufficient
to the task.

Got it?


Tony (remove the "_" to reply by email)
Reply
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Louder IS Better (With Lossy) Lord Hasenpfeffer Pro Audio 67 July 7th 03 08:56 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:42 PM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AudioBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about Audio and hi-fi"