I bought a new AudioControl Epic-160 on eBay. I knew that I
wouldn't be getting a warranty with it, and that's no problem for me.
But once it arrived, I noticed something weird. It came in an
AudioControl box, with the factory label sealing the lid of the box.
When I opened it up, the Quality Assurance test card, all the packing
material, and the Epic-160 itself looked undisturbed. However, there
was no serial number sticker, and there was no warranty card in the
box.
Do some units leave AudioControl without warranty cards and
serial numbers, or did the reseller I bought from just figure out a
way to open the box and remove those items without disturbing the
seal?
BTW, it works and looks great, so I'm not too concerned either
way, just curious.

Scott Gardner

Scott,
It is fairly common in car audio to recieve it like you did.
Some of the dealers are pretty good about resealing the
factory seals to fool you...

The dealer you bought it from is not likely to be a legit
(approved by audio control) dealer, he may have bought
the piece from another dealer thats not too reputable...

For many of the high end brands, they only sell to thier approved
stores, and dont allow internet sales... Dealers break thier agreement
or contract with the manufacturers by selling to another dealer
or on ebay... They could get in trouble for doing this.

By trouble I mean they could loose thier ability to buy from that
manufacturer (get cut off) or they could actually be sued by
the manufacturer (since they broke a legal contract)...

And so they dont get in trouble, they often ALTER the serial number so it
cannot be traced back to the original dealer... (he is a bad guy for
breaking his contract for the manufacturer)... And with an altered
serial number you usually have no warrantly direct from the manufacturer.

No big deal for you, you didnt care about the warranty and you
got a good deal.

THE PROBLEM IS!
It is against federal law to alter or remove any serial number from
ANY electronic equipment in the USA... They broke the law! and
the problem for you is if the cops ever pull you over and see the
altered serial number they will most probably assume YOU STOLE IT!
And you could be accused of illegally altering the serial number...

You can look up altering serial numbers on Google I am sure you
can easily find the law about it...

Good luck.

Eddie Runner


Scott Gardner wrote:

I bought a new AudioControl Epic-160 on eBay. I knew that I
wouldn't be getting a warranty with it, and that's no problem for me.
But once it arrived, I noticed something weird. It came in an
AudioControl box, with the factory label sealing the lid of the box.
When I opened it up, the Quality Assurance test card, all the packing
material, and the Epic-160 itself looked undisturbed. However, there
was no serial number sticker, and there was no warranty card in the
box.
Do some units leave AudioControl without warranty cards and
serial numbers, or did the reseller I bought from just figure out a
way to open the box and remove those items without disturbing the
seal?
BTW, it works and looks great, so I'm not too concerned either
way, just curious.

Scott Gardner

That's interesting. I did a Google search on altered serial
numbers, but the only references I found were manufacturers saying
they wouldn't honor a warranty on a device with a missing or altered
serial number. I didn't find anybody else claiming it was a violation
of any federal law.
There *was* a discussion about it being illegal to alter the
serial number on firearms, but that's a whole different kettle of
fish.
Can you point me to the federal law you referenced? Does it
only apply to retailers, or does it apply to consumers as well? What
if I had been the one to remove the serial number sticker so I could
powdercoat the chassis to match my car? Is that against the law too?

Scott Gardner


On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 21:34:50 GMT, Eddie Runner
wrote:


THE PROBLEM IS!
It is against federal law to alter or remove any serial number from
ANY electronic equipment in the USA... They broke the law! and
the problem for you is if the cops ever pull you over and see the
altered serial number they will most probably assume YOU STOLE IT!
And you could be accused of illegally altering the serial number...

You can look up altering serial numbers on Google I am sure you
can easily find the law about it...

Good luck.

Eddie Runner

I'm not sure about a federal law, but here in Washington State, it's called
obsuring the identity of a machine, a misdemeanor.

Tony


--


What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the
universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that
he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't
have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact
"Scott Gardner" wrote in message
...
That's interesting. I did a Google search on altered serial
numbers, but the only references I found were manufacturers saying
they wouldn't honor a warranty on a device with a missing or altered
serial number. I didn't find anybody else claiming it was a violation
of any federal law.
There *was* a discussion about it being illegal to alter the
serial number on firearms, but that's a whole different kettle of
fish.
Can you point me to the federal law you referenced? Does it
only apply to retailers, or does it apply to consumers as well? What
if I had been the one to remove the serial number sticker so I could
powdercoat the chassis to match my car? Is that against the law too?

Scott Gardner


On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 21:34:50 GMT, Eddie Runner
wrote:


THE PROBLEM IS!
It is against federal law to alter or remove any serial number from
ANY electronic equipment in the USA... They broke the law! and
the problem for you is if the cops ever pull you over and see the
altered serial number they will most probably assume YOU STOLE IT!
And you could be accused of illegally altering the serial number...

You can look up altering serial numbers on Google I am sure you
can easily find the law about it...

Good luck.

Eddie Runner

I found similar laws for several cities, but nothing so far on
the federal level.
One interesting thing, though. In several of the city codes,
it says that the removal or alteration of a serial number is illegal
only if it's done with the intent to conceal the true ownership of the
item. That makes sense. However, in the city code for Lenexa,
Kansas, it goes even further to say that mere possession of items with
altered or removed serial numbers is prima facie evidence of intent to
misrepresent the ownership of the item. Pretty draconian, if you ask
me. Here's the link to the Lenexa city code:

http://tinyurl.com/x9sk

Scott Gardner
On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 14:06:45 -0800, "Tony Fernandes"
wrote:

I'm not sure about a federal law, but here in Washington State, it's called
obsuring the identity of a machine, a misdemeanor.

Tony


--


What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the
universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that
he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't
have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact
"Scott Gardner" wrote in message
...
That's interesting. I did a Google search on altered serial
numbers, but the only references I found were manufacturers saying
they wouldn't honor a warranty on a device with a missing or altered
serial number. I didn't find anybody else claiming it was a violation
of any federal law.
There *was* a discussion about it being illegal to alter the
serial number on firearms, but that's a whole different kettle of
fish.
Can you point me to the federal law you referenced? Does it
only apply to retailers, or does it apply to consumers as well? What
if I had been the one to remove the serial number sticker so I could
powdercoat the chassis to match my car? Is that against the law too?

Scott Gardner


On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 21:34:50 GMT, Eddie Runner
wrote:


THE PROBLEM IS!
It is against federal law to alter or remove any serial number from
ANY electronic equipment in the USA... They broke the law! and
the problem for you is if the cops ever pull you over and see the
altered serial number they will most probably assume YOU STOLE IT!
And you could be accused of illegally altering the serial number...

You can look up altering serial numbers on Google I am sure you
can easily find the law about it...

Good luck.

Eddie Runner

wow, I didnt realize it would be so hard to find. Serching for
serial number or even serial number removal gets 1000s of hit
that are mostly pertaining to software piracy....

I read it somewhere that altering the serial numbers on electronics
became a federal law.. seems like it was a couple of years ago now
it was probably in one of the installer only magazines I get... .

I dont think I imagined it. ;-)

There are a bunch of state laws that say its illegal to remove
a serial number to prevent the item to be tracked or whatever
did you see any of those... Just like guns, just like cars, bycicles
and more..

Scott Gardner wrote:


Can you point me to the federal law you referenced? Does it
only apply to retailers, or does it apply to consumers as well? What
if I had been the one to remove the serial number sticker so I could
powdercoat the chassis to match my car? Is that against the law too?

Scott Gardner

That is not unusual... equipment missing the serial numbers is
frequently impounded by police in many areas. And what's worse, if it's
yours and gets stolen with no serial number, you'll have one helluva
time gettig it back even if it's recovered and you are somehow notified
(it may be recovered with other stuff that has your name on it for
example) that the police have found it.

I'd damn sure add some kind of indelible marking to it, and take pics of
that with whatever documentation you have for the transaction next to it
in the pic so you could prove ownership if it came down to it.

JD

Scott Gardner wrote:

I found similar laws for several cities, but nothing so far on
the federal level.
One interesting thing, though. In several of the city codes,
it says that the removal or alteration of a serial number is illegal
only if it's done with the intent to conceal the true ownership of the
item. That makes sense. However, in the city code for Lenexa,
Kansas, it goes even further to say that mere possession of items with
altered or removed serial numbers is prima facie evidence of intent to
misrepresent the ownership of the item. Pretty draconian, if you ask
me. Here's the link to the Lenexa city code:

http://tinyurl.com/x9sk

Scott Gardner
On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 14:06:45 -0800, "Tony Fernandes"
wrote:



I'm not sure about a federal law, but here in Washington State, it's called
obsuring the identity of a machine, a misdemeanor.

Tony


--


What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the
universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that
he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't
have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact
"Scott Gardner" wrote in message
...


That's interesting. I did a Google search on altered serial
numbers, but the only references I found were manufacturers saying
they wouldn't honor a warranty on a device with a missing or altered
serial number. I didn't find anybody else claiming it was a violation
of any federal law.
There *was* a discussion about it being illegal to alter the
serial number on firearms, but that's a whole different kettle of
fish.
Can you point me to the federal law you referenced? Does it
only apply to retailers, or does it apply to consumers as well? What
if I had been the one to remove the serial number sticker so I could
powdercoat the chassis to match my car? Is that against the law too?

Scott Gardner


On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 21:34:50 GMT, Eddie Runner
wrote:




THE PROBLEM IS!
It is against federal law to alter or remove any serial number from
ANY electronic equipment in the USA... They broke the law! and
the problem for you is if the cops ever pull you over and see the
altered serial number they will most probably assume YOU STOLE IT!
And you could be accused of illegally altering the serial number...

You can look up altering serial numbers on Google I am sure you
can easily find the law about it...

Good luck.

Eddie Runner

I think the spirit of the law here in WA is soley to prevent people from
stealing items and then obliterating the serial number thus preventing its
traceability. Of course, in situations where there was only a sticker on
the item with the serial number, and the sticker can be easily peeled off,
the mere absence of a number upon inspection reveals absolutley nothing
since there are no scratch marks, etc. showing that there used to be a
serial number. Why a company would ever decide not to engrave a serial
number on a piece of electronic equipement is beyond me, though.

Of course, even though mere possession of an altered item is a crime, the
more important questions would be 1) Why would someone scratch the serial
number off of an item they already own? and, 2) Why would someone purchase
an item with the serial number already scratched off? The latter question
could be interpreted as any prudent person under normal circumstances would
draw a conclusion that any such item with an altered serial number is most
likely stolen. Then the companion crime of possession of stolen property
would also apply.

Tony


--


What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the
universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that
he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't
have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact
"Scott Gardner" wrote in message
...
I found similar laws for several cities, but nothing so far on
the federal level.
One interesting thing, though. In several of the city codes,
it says that the removal or alteration of a serial number is illegal
only if it's done with the intent to conceal the true ownership of the
item. That makes sense. However, in the city code for Lenexa,
Kansas, it goes even further to say that mere possession of items with
altered or removed serial numbers is prima facie evidence of intent to
misrepresent the ownership of the item. Pretty draconian, if you ask
me. Here's the link to the Lenexa city code:

http://tinyurl.com/x9sk

Scott Gardner
On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 14:06:45 -0800, "Tony Fernandes"
wrote:

I'm not sure about a federal law, but here in Washington State, it's
called
obsuring the identity of a machine, a misdemeanor.

Tony


--


What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the
universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or,
that
he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we
wouldn't
have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact
"Scott Gardner" wrote in message
...
That's interesting. I did a Google search on altered serial
numbers, but the only references I found were manufacturers saying
they wouldn't honor a warranty on a device with a missing or altered
serial number. I didn't find anybody else claiming it was a violation
of any federal law.
There *was* a discussion about it being illegal to alter the
serial number on firearms, but that's a whole different kettle of
fish.
Can you point me to the federal law you referenced? Does it
only apply to retailers, or does it apply to consumers as well? What
if I had been the one to remove the serial number sticker so I could
powdercoat the chassis to match my car? Is that against the law too?

Scott Gardner


On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 21:34:50 GMT, Eddie Runner
wrote:


THE PROBLEM IS!
It is against federal law to alter or remove any serial number from
ANY electronic equipment in the USA... They broke the law! and
the problem for you is if the cops ever pull you over and see the
altered serial number they will most probably assume YOU STOLE IT!
And you could be accused of illegally altering the serial number...

You can look up altering serial numbers on Google I am sure you
can easily find the law about it...

Good luck.

Eddie Runner