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#1
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"Classical performers hearing-damaged" - Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281
Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281:
professional musicians, particularly classical performers, are likely to be hearing-damaged due to exposure to loud sounds Prove this vicious generalization, Krueger. |
#2
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"Classical performers hearing-damaged" - Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281
"Andre Jute" wrote in message oups.com... Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281: professional musicians, particularly classical performers, are likely to be hearing-damaged due to exposure to loud sounds Prove this vicious generalization, Krueger. More so than rockers? or intemperate mixers? |
#3
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"Classical performers hearing-damaged" - Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281
In article .com,
"Andre Jute" wrote: Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281: professional musicians, particularly classical performers, are likely to be hearing-damaged due to exposure to loud sounds Prove this vicious generalization, Krueger. It's clearly a false statement. |
#4
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"Classical performers hearing-damaged" - Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281
Jenn wrote: In article .com, "Andre Jute" wrote: Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281: professional musicians, particularly classical performers, are likely to be hearing-damaged due to exposure to loud sounds Prove this vicious generalization, Krueger. It's clearly a false statement. Hearing impairment in orchestral musicians. Ostri B, Eller N, Dahlin E, Skylv G. Department of Audiology, Bispebjerg Hospital, Copenhagen, Denmark. Symphony orchestra musicians from The Royal Danish Theatre (15 females and 80 males) aged 22 to 64 years were audiologically examined to elucidate the presence and the frequency of noise-induced hearing loss among classical musicians. Compared to a reference material (ISO 7029) the median hearing thresholds of the musicians were increased for all age groups. When using hearing sensitivity in one or both ears less than 20 dB HL as a criterion for normality, it was found the 58% of the musicians had a hearing impairment. 50% of the males and 13% of the females showed a typical audiogram with a notched curve at higher frequencies normally attributed to occupational noise exposure. Furthermore, a significantly poorer hearing on the left ear was found at higher frequencies among the violinists. It is concluded that symphonic musicians suffer from hearing impairment and that the impairment might be ascribed to symphonic music. PMID: 2609103 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Graham |
#5
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"Classical performers hearing-damaged" - Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281
Andre Jute said: Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281: The count might actually be higher, but never mind that now. professional musicians, particularly classical performers, are likely to be hearing-damaged due to exposure to loud sounds Prove this vicious generalization, Krueger. Arnii knows this "fact" because professional musicians freely admit they do not stuff feces in their ears. Without the feces stuffing, Arnii believes ears are vulnerable to damage from music. He learned this lesson the hard way, you know. ;-) |
#6
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"Classical performers hearing-damaged" - Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281
"Pooh Bear" wrote in message ... : : : Jenn wrote: : : In article .com, : "Andre Jute" wrote: : : Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281: : : professional musicians, particularly classical performers, are likely to be : hearing-damaged due to exposure to loud sounds : : Prove this vicious generalization, Krueger. : : It's clearly a false statement. : : Hearing impairment in orchestral musicians. : : Ostri B, Eller N, Dahlin E, Skylv G. : : Department of Audiology, Bispebjerg Hospital, Copenhagen, Denmark. : : Symphony orchestra musicians from The Royal Danish Theatre (15 females and 80 : males) aged 22 to 64 years were audiologically examined to elucidate the presence : and the frequency of noise-induced hearing loss among classical musicians. : Compared to a reference material (ISO 7029) the median hearing thresholds of the : musicians were increased for all age groups. When using hearing sensitivity in one : or both ears less than 20 dB HL as a criterion for normality, it was found the 58% : of the musicians had a hearing impairment. 50% of the males and 13% of the females : showed a typical audiogram with a notched curve at higher frequencies normally : attributed to occupational noise exposure. Furthermore, a significantly poorer : hearing on the left ear was found at higher frequencies among the violinists. It : is concluded that symphonic musicians suffer from hearing impairment and that the : impairment might be ascribed to symphonic music. : : PMID: 2609103 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] : : : Graham : ::::::::::::::::: It is a sad occupational hazard, that indeed the change of running into some form of hearing problem is pretty high. From an posting of mine on RAO, feb 16th: http://orkestengehoor.nl/achtergrond.../r816_3_ra.pdf is a dutch report from 2003 : brass section players are on average exposed to 88 dbA SPL dayly average over a 260 day working year . K. Kähäri (Linholmen Development, Göteborg) reported in 2003 that only 26 % of classical orchestra performers had no hearing impairements within the remaining 74 %: 41 % suffered diminished hearing capabilities 43 % suffered tinnitus 39 % suffered hyperacuses * * * in reaction, "Bryan" wrote in message oups.com... I can vouch for that. I'm not a professional musician and I only play maybe once or twice a week. But when I played in a big band in front of the trumpet section, I actually wore earplugs sometimes because it hurt! I do have tinnitus (ringing in the ears), but it doesn't seem to interfere with "normal" hearing ... yet. * * * Some recommendations are to put the trumpet section on a platform, and a little further to the back - this will end up in regulations in the EU. It appears orchestra's acoustical output has been going up by several dB the last 20 years. Rudy |
#7
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"Classical performers hearing-damaged" - Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281
Andre Jute wrote: Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281: professional musicians, particularly classical performers, are likely to be hearing-damaged due to exposure to loud sounds Prove this vicious generalization, Krueger. While in this thread I'm glad to see Poopie do some work for a change rather than just carp uselessly, the context of Krueger's lie was not about orchestral performers. In fact, Krueger doesn't know about which musicians he made this blanket accusion of hearing damage because I never said which performers I used. That is why Krueger is being asked specifically to: Prove this vicious generalization, Krueger. Andre Jute Precision is the first scientific virtue |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tubes
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"Classical performers hearing-damaged" - Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281
"Andre Jute" wrote in message oups.com... Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281: professional musicians, particularly classical performers, are likely to be hearing-damaged due to exposure to loud sounds Prove this vicious generalization, Krueger. http://www.dizziness-and-balance.com...g/hearing.html "Musical instruments can generate considerable sound and thus can also cause hearing loss. The most damaging type of sounds is in the high-frequencies. The piccolo generates sound levels up to 112 dB.roughly equivalent to a jackhammer at 30 feet. "Violins and violas can be sufficiently loud to cause permanent hearing loss. This is typically worse in the left ear which is nearer the instrument. Unlike other instruments, the ability to hear the high-frequency harmonics is crucial to these musicians. Mutes can be used while practicing to reduce long term exposure. (Karlsson, Lundquist et al. 1983; Ostri, Eller et al. 1989; Royster, Royster et al. 1991; Sataloff 1991; Palin 1994; Teie 1998; Obeling and Poulsen 1999; Hoppmann 2001; Kahari, Axelsson et al. 2001). In a study of rock/Jazz musicions, almost 3/4 had a hearing disorder, with hearing loss, hyperacusis and tinnitus being the most common maladies. (Kaharit, Zachau et al. 2003) http://homepages.kdsi.net/~sherman/hearingloss.htm "But Furtwängler's story illustrates a downside. To fill the larger halls with sufficient sound, the voices, instruments and ensembles had to crank up to potentially ear-damaging levels. Countless violists, who sit right in front of the brass, have been deafened as a result. And some veteran opera singers, thanks to years of being screeched at by their fellow divas at close range, have lost a good deal of hearing. http://www.lhh.org/noise/facts/music.htm Studies show that 37% of rock musicians and 52% of classical musicians have a measurable hearing loss (Chasin, M., 1998). And on, and on, and on... |
#9
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"Classical performers hearing-damaged" - Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281
Arny Krueger wrote: "Andre Jute" wrote in message oups.com... Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281: professional musicians, particularly classical performers, are likely to be hearing-damaged due to exposure to loud sounds Prove this vicious generalization, Krueger. Krueger, I know all that stuff below. But it is about orchestral musicians and singers and jazzmen. They're not the musicians I used for my tests. You rashly made a statement in a particular context about musicians whose description you did not know. Now I'm asking you to prove it. None of the stuff below is more than marginally relevant. Stop wriggling and get on with your proof. Andre Jute Precision is the essential art of science http://www.dizziness-and-balance.com...g/hearing.html "Musical instruments can generate considerable sound and thus can also cause hearing loss. The most damaging type of sounds is in the high-frequencies. The piccolo generates sound levels up to 112 dB.roughly equivalent to a jackhammer at 30 feet. "Violins and violas can be sufficiently loud to cause permanent hearing loss. This is typically worse in the left ear which is nearer the instrument. Unlike other instruments, the ability to hear the high-frequency harmonics is crucial to these musicians. Mutes can be used while practicing to reduce long term exposure. (Karlsson, Lundquist et al. 1983; Ostri, Eller et al. 1989; Royster, Royster et al. 1991; Sataloff 1991; Palin 1994; Teie 1998; Obeling and Poulsen 1999; Hoppmann 2001; Kahari, Axelsson et al. 2001). In a study of rock/Jazz musicions, almost 3/4 had a hearing disorder, with hearing loss, hyperacusis and tinnitus being the most common maladies. (Kaharit, Zachau et al. 2003) http://homepages.kdsi.net/~sherman/hearingloss.htm "But Furtwängler's story illustrates a downside. To fill the larger halls with sufficient sound, the voices, instruments and ensembles had to crankup to potentially ear-damaging levels. Countless violists, who sit right in front of the brass, have been deafened as a result. And some veteran opera singers, thanks to years of being screeched at by their fellow divas at close range, have lost a good deal of hearing. http://www.lhh.org/noise/facts/music.htm Studies show that 37% of rock musicians and 52% of classical musicians have a measurable hearing loss (Chasin, M., 1998). And on, and on, and on... |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tubes
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"Classical performers hearing-damaged" - Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281
In article ,
Pooh Bear wrote: Jenn wrote: In article .com, "Andre Jute" wrote: Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281: professional musicians, particularly classical performers, are likely to be hearing-damaged due to exposure to loud sounds Prove this vicious generalization, Krueger. It's clearly a false statement. Hearing impairment in orchestral musicians. Ostri B, Eller N, Dahlin E, Skylv G. Department of Audiology, Bispebjerg Hospital, Copenhagen, Denmark. Symphony orchestra musicians from The Royal Danish Theatre (15 females and 80 males) aged 22 to 64 years were audiologically examined to elucidate the presence and the frequency of noise-induced hearing loss among classical musicians. Compared to a reference material (ISO 7029) the median hearing thresholds of the musicians were increased for all age groups. When using hearing sensitivity in one or both ears less than 20 dB HL as a criterion for normality, it was found the 58% of the musicians had a hearing impairment. 50% of the males and 13% of the females showed a typical audiogram with a notched curve at higher frequencies normally attributed to occupational noise exposure. Furthermore, a significantly poorer hearing on the left ear was found at higher frequencies among the violinists. It is concluded that symphonic musicians suffer from hearing impairment and that the impairment might be ascribed to symphonic music. PMID: 2609103 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Graham This is far less a concern now than in previous years due to efforts, mostly from the AFofM, to prevent such damage. If you look at the stage set-up of a great many professional orchestras, you will see individual sonic barriers between the percussion and the back row of winds, often attached to individual chairs. Many, many players use ear plugs while on stage. The American Symphony Orchestra League has sponsored studies in the past couple of years to test the effectiveness of such measures; I'll try to dig them out of my library and post them here. In any case, the statement that professional musicians are "likely" to have suffered hearing damage is ridiculous. The majority of classical musicians don't even perform in large ensembles. |
#11
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"Classical performers hearing-damaged" - Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote: "Andre Jute" wrote in message oups.com... Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281: professional musicians, particularly classical performers, are likely to be hearing-damaged due to exposure to loud sounds Prove this vicious generalization, Krueger. http://www.dizziness-and-balance.com...g/hearing.html "Musical instruments can generate considerable sound and thus can also cause hearing loss. The most damaging type of sounds is in the high-frequencies. The piccolo generates sound levels up to 112 dB.roughly equivalent to a jackhammer at 30 feet. "Violins and violas can be sufficiently loud to cause permanent hearing loss. This is typically worse in the left ear which is nearer the instrument. Unlike other instruments, the ability to hear the high-frequency harmonics is crucial to these musicians. Mutes can be used while practicing to reduce long term exposure. (Karlsson, Lundquist et al. 1983; Ostri, Eller et al. 1989; Royster, Royster et al. 1991; Sataloff 1991; Palin 1994; Teie 1998; Obeling and Poulsen 1999; Hoppmann 2001; Kahari, Axelsson et al. 2001). In a study of rock/Jazz musicions, almost 3/4 had a hearing disorder, with hearing loss, hyperacusis and tinnitus being the most common maladies. (Kaharit, Zachau et al. 2003) http://homepages.kdsi.net/~sherman/hearingloss.htm "But Furtwängler's story illustrates a downside. To fill the larger halls with sufficient sound, the voices, instruments and ensembles had to crank up to potentially ear-damaging levels. Countless violists, who sit right in front of the brass, have been deafened as a result. 1. The violinists don't sit "right in front of the brass". 2. The last sentence is obvious hyperbole. "Deafened"? |
#12
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"Classical performers hearing-damaged" - Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281
Jenn commented in
: snip (that's why the reference is left there, folks ...) http://homepages.kdsi.net/~sherman/hearingloss.htm "But Furtwängler's story illustrates a downside. To fill the larger halls with sufficient sound, the voices, instruments and ensembles had to crank up to potentially ear-damaging levels. Countless violists, who sit right in front of the brass, have been deafened as a result. 1. The violinists don't sit "right in front of the brass". Uh, I read "violists". Typo? Or did he mean the viola players? To the right, and in front of? "right in front of", as an approximation? 2. The last sentence is obvious hyperbole. "Deafened"? Uh, 'made deaf(er)', I would think! (to what degree not defined) -- RdM "One thing you have probably wondered about for many years is why musicians who sing rock'n'roll tend to be extremely thin, if not actually dead, whereas those who sing, say, opera, tend to be humongous wads of cellulite. The reason for this phenomenon, scientists now believe, is that fat cells are actually destroyed by stupid lyrics." - Dave Barry "Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels." - 2 Timothy 2:23 |
#13
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"Classical performers hearing-damaged" - Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281
In article ,
RdM wrote: Jenn commented in m: snip (that's why the reference is left there, folks ...) http://homepages.kdsi.net/~sherman/hearingloss.htm "But Furtwängler's story illustrates a downside. To fill the larger halls with sufficient sound, the voices, instruments and ensembles had to crank up to potentially ear-damaging levels. Countless violists, who sit right in front of the brass, have been deafened as a result. 1. The violinists don't sit "right in front of the brass". Uh, I read "violists". Typo? Or did he mean the viola players? To the right, and in front of? "right in front of", as an approximation? My error. 2. The last sentence is obvious hyperbole. "Deafened"? Uh, 'made deaf(er)', I would think! (to what degree not defined) I use the term "deafened" like the first definition in my dictionary: to cause (someone) to lose the power of hearing. |
#14
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"Classical performers hearing-damaged" - Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281
If I am not mistaken they tested rock and orchestral players in a
study in the very late 70s and found that the orchestral types had more hearing loss. However, they were on average 20 to 30 years older. This is a question to be answered by legitimate testing and not opinion and **** slinging. I just don't know where the latest test results are. |
#15
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"Classical performers hearing-damaged" - Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281
Jenn writes back in
: 2. The last sentence is obvious hyperbole. "Deafened"? Uh, 'made deaf(er)', I would think! (to what degree not defined) I use the term "deafened" like the first definition in my dictionary: to cause (someone) to lose the power of hearing. I tend to think of it as having a degree of degree. One can be deafened after a loud noise nearby, albeit temporarily. Or crushed, in an argument. Or flattened. It's a description of a process. It need not mean made profoundly deaf finally and for good in an instant, I'd think, although proximity to high explosives detonating may achieve that, I suppose ... Even your definition "to lose ... "; but to what degree? Partial is included. IMO. Thanks for your reply. Best wishes. -- RdM |
#16
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"Classical performers hearing-damaged" - André Jute Lie No. ?
Dédé "McKelvy" Jute wrote :
While in this thread I'm glad to see Poopie do some work for a change rather than just carp uselessly, the context of Krueger's lie was not about orchestral performers. ....LOL !!! Poor Dédé is too petty and conceited to recognize that he has done an ass of himself. In this story, *you* are the *LIAR*, Dédé, and in the end you sound 10 time worst than the ones you criticize. In French : http://www.french.press.hear-it.org/page.dsp?page=1838 In English : http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyo...0040112a.shtml Do you need more, eh Môron ? |
#17
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Who caused André Jute's humiliation this week? :-D
In , Arny Krueger wrote :
"Andre Jute" wrote in message oups.com... Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281: professional musicians, particularly classical performers, are likely to be hearing-damaged due to exposure to loud sounds Prove this vicious generalization, Krueger. http://www.dizziness-and-balance.com...g/hearing.html "Musical instruments can generate considerable sound and thus can also cause hearing loss. The most damaging type of sounds is in the high-frequencies. The piccolo generates sound levels up to 112 dB.roughly equivalent to a jackhammer at 30 feet. "Violins and violas can be sufficiently loud to cause permanent hearing loss. This is typically worse in the left ear which is nearer the instrument. Unlike other instruments, the ability to hear the high-frequency harmonics is crucial to these musicians. Mutes can be used while practicing to reduce long term exposure. (Karlsson, Lundquist et al. 1983; Ostri, Eller et al. 1989; Royster, Royster et al. 1991; Sataloff 1991; Palin 1994; Teie 1998; Obeling and Poulsen 1999; Hoppmann 2001; Kahari, Axelsson et al. 2001). In a study of rock/Jazz musicions, almost 3/4 had a hearing disorder, with hearing loss, hyperacusis and tinnitus being the most common maladies. (Kaharit, Zachau et al. 2003) http://homepages.kdsi.net/~sherman/hearingloss.htm "But Furtwängler's story illustrates a downside. To fill the larger halls with sufficient sound, the voices, instruments and ensembles had to crank up to potentially ear-damaging levels. Countless violists, who sit right in front of the brass, have been deafened as a result. And some veteran opera singers, thanks to years of being screeched at by their fellow divas at close range, have lost a good deal of hearing. http://www.lhh.org/noise/facts/music.htm Studies show that 37% of rock musicians and 52% of classical musicians have a measurable hearing loss (Chasin, M., 1998). And on, and on, and on... -- "Nobody seemes to have actaully read what i wrote. But what's new around here?" Dave Weil, Sun, 05 Oct 2003 00:57:15 |
#18
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"Classical performers hearing-damaged" - Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281
"Andre Jute" wrote in message ups.com... Arny Krueger wrote: "Andre Jute" wrote in message oups.com... Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281: professional musicians, particularly classical performers, are likely to be hearing-damaged due to exposure to loud sounds Prove this vicious generalization, Krueger. Krueger, I know all that stuff below. But it is about orchestral musicians and singers and jazzmen. They're not the musicians I used for my tests. You rashly made a statement in a particular context about musicians whose description you did not know. Now I'm asking you to prove it. None of the stuff below is more than marginally relevant. Stop wriggling and get on with your proof. In fact Jute, the studies below even mention solo musicians, such as a picolo player. They also mention vocalists. Did you exclude all vocalists from your study? (Watch Jute try to twist and turn his way out of this!) I found 100's if not 1,000's of studies involving all kinds of musicans, ranging from solists, to small ensembles to large orchestras. Jute, learn how to read, and quit changing your story! Andre Jute (proven liar) Precision is the essential art of science, (and Jute has no idea of how to be precise!) http://www.dizziness-and-balance.com...g/hearing.html "Musical instruments can generate considerable sound and thus can also cause hearing loss. The most damaging type of sounds is in the high-frequencies. The piccolo generates sound levels up to 112 dB.roughly equivalent to a jackhammer at 30 feet. "Violins and violas can be sufficiently loud to cause permanent hearing loss. This is typically worse in the left ear which is nearer the instrument. Unlike other instruments, the ability to hear the high-frequency harmonics is crucial to these musicians. Mutes can be used while practicing to reduce long term exposure. (Karlsson, Lundquist et al. 1983; Ostri, Eller et al. 1989; Royster, Royster et al. 1991; Sataloff 1991; Palin 1994; Teie 1998; Obeling and Poulsen 1999; Hoppmann 2001; Kahari, Axelsson et al. 2001). In a study of rock/Jazz musicions, almost 3/4 had a hearing disorder, with hearing loss, hyperacusis and tinnitus being the most common maladies. (Kaharit, Zachau et al. 2003) http://homepages.kdsi.net/~sherman/hearingloss.htm "But Furtwängler's story illustrates a downside. To fill the larger halls with sufficient sound, the voices, instruments and ensembles had to crank up to potentially ear-damaging levels. Countless violists, who sit right in front of the brass, have been deafened as a result. And some veteran opera singers, thanks to years of being screeched at by their fellow divas at close range, have lost a good deal of hearing. http://www.lhh.org/noise/facts/music.htm Studies show that 37% of rock musicians and 52% of classical musicians have a measurable hearing loss (Chasin, M., 1998). And on, and on, and on... |
#19
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"Classical performers hearing-damaged" - Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281
Arny Krueger wrote: "Andre Jute" wrote in message Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281: professional musicians, particularly classical performers, are likelyto be hearing-damaged due to exposure to loud sounds Prove this vicious generalization, Krueger. Krueger then sent a bunch of irrelevant quotations which Jute dismissed with contempt: Krueger, I know all that stuff below. But it is about orchestral musicians and singers and jazzmen. They're not the musicians I used for my tests. You rashly made a statement in a particular context about musicians whose description you did not know. Now I'm asking you to prove it. None of the stuff below is more than marginally relevant. Stop wriggling and get on with your proof. This thrilling mystery hunt continues with the villein of the piece, Arny Krueger, speaking: In fact Jute, the studies below even mention solo musicians, such as a picolo player. Nope. Not a picolo player either. They also mention vocalists. Nope. Those that you condemn, without knowing what kind of musicians they are, are not vocalists either. Did you exclude all vocalists from your study? I'm asking the questions, Krueger. You are the one trying to distract us with bull****. You said musicians, of whom I gave no description, were suffering "endemic hearing damage". (Watch Jute try to twist and turn his way out of this!) I'm sitting relaxed in an ergonomic chair of my own design, licensed and paying royalties. You're the one twisting and turning because in your "zeal to flame Andre" you told several lies about a group of people you don't even know who they are. We'll come to the rest of your lies when we finish with this one. I found 100's if not 1,000's of studies involving all kinds of musicans, ranging from solists, to small ensembles to large orchestras. Yada, yada, yada. A scientist would have ascertained what he is talking about before he shot off his wad over himself and three newsgroups. Only a posturer would shoot off his wad first and then try to find out what he shot it off about. Jute, learn how to read, and quit changing your story! You're commenting in vacuo about a story I haven't told yet. You are making up things about a fact you haven't heard because I didn't tell it to you. This is your life, Arny Krueger, pretend expert. Andre Jute (proven liar) Really? You can sling **** all you like, Krueger, but this is one lie you cannot wriggle out of, because in this letter you already admitted you didn't know which musicians I was talking about. You are a proven liar, Krueger. Precision is the essential art of science, (and Jute has no idea of how to be precise!) Oh, I dug a very precise hole for you, two feet wide and five and a half feet long, a nice grave-shape. You dived into it face first and now you are scrambling to get out. Sling all the insults you want. The fact remains: You didn't have the facts, because I carefully refrained from giving you the crucial fact. You spouted off without the facts. Now you spout off insults to cover up your lies. How can we ever again trust a single word you say? With utmost contempt for the proven liar Krueger. Andre Jute Your mind is a precision instrument. Treat it with respect. -- Andre Jute, graduation speech Here's Krueger's ever more desperately inappropriate "research" to prove he didn't tell a lie about a subject he didn't know the particulars of (because I didn't tell them to him) and which he is now trying to define -- after he told lies about it! And so on and so on round and round the mulberry tree, because Krueger doesn't know which musicians I'm talking about -- I never told him. http://www.dizziness-and-balance.com...g/hearing.html "Musical instruments can generate considerable sound and thus can also cause hearing loss. The most damaging type of sounds is in the high-frequencies. The piccolo generates sound levels up to 112 dB.roughly equivalent to a jackhammer at 30 feet. "Violins and violas can be sufficiently loud to cause permanent hearing loss. This is typically worse in the left ear which is nearer the instrument. Unlike other instruments, the ability to hear the high-frequency harmonics is crucial to these musicians. Mutes can be used while practicing to reduce long term exposure. (Karlsson, Lundquist et al. 1983; Ostri, Eller et al. 1989; Royster, Royster et al. 1991; Sataloff 1991; Palin 1994; Teie 1998; Obeling and Poulsen 1999; Hoppmann 2001; Kahari, Axelsson et al. 2001). In a study of rock/Jazz musicions, almost 3/4 had a hearing disorder, with hearing loss, hyperacusis and tinnitus being the most common maladies. (Kaharit, Zachau et al. 2003) http://homepages.kdsi.net/~sherman/hearingloss.htm "But Furtwängler's story illustrates a downside. To fill the larger halls with sufficient sound, the voices, instruments and ensembles had to crank up to potentially ear-damaging levels. Countless violists, who sit right in front of the brass, have been deafened as a result. And some veteran opera singers, thanks to years of being screeched at by their fellow divas at close range, have lost a good deal of hearing. http://www.lhh.org/noise/facts/music.htm Studies show that 37% of rock musicians and 52% of classical musicians have a measurable hearing loss (Chasin, M., 1998). And on, and on, and on... And so on and so on round and round the mulberry tree, because Krueger doesn't know which musicians I'm talking about -- I never told him. |
#20
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"Classical performers hearing-damaged" - Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281
In article
, Jenn wrote: http://homepages.kdsi.net/~sherman/hearingloss.htm "But Furtwängler's story illustrates a downside. To fill the larger halls with sufficient sound, the voices, instruments and ensembles had to crank up to potentially ear-damaging levels. Countless violists, who sit right in front of the brass, have been deafened as a result. 1. The violinists don't sit "right in front of the brass". 2. The last sentence is obvious hyperbole. "Deafened"? Careful! It says "violists." Stephen |
#21
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"Classical performers hearing-damaged" - Arny Kruger Lie No.51281
Andre Jute wrote:
Andre Jute Precision is the first scientific virtue Second to honesty, but you wouldn't know about that. It appears that your accusation about Arnie is in fact Jute Lie No. 1.618 * 10^99. Orchestral musicians _do_ indeed suffer from noise induced hearing damage. Care to apologise? Andy |
#22
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"Classical performers hearing-damaged" - Arny Kruger Lie No.51281
Jenn wrote:
"But Furtwängler's story illustrates a downside. To fill the larger halls with sufficient sound, the voices, instruments and ensembles had to crank up to potentially ear-damaging levels. Countless violists, who sit right in front of the brass, have been deafened as a result. 2. The last sentence is obvious hyperbole. "Deafened"? Yes, deafened - having their hearing capabilities diminished. Deafness is not an absolute but a whole spectrum of impairments. Andy |
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"Classical performers hearing-damaged" - Arny Kruger Lie No.51281
Jenn wrote:
2. The last sentence is obvious hyperbole. "Deafened"? Uh, 'made deaf(er)', I would think! (to what degree not defined) I use the term "deafened" like the first definition in my dictionary: to cause (someone) to lose the power of hearing. To what degree? Humans with even very profound auditory damage can peceive some sounds by means other than the ears. Deafness is not an absolute but a spectrum of impairment. It is perfectly correct to use deafened for any loss of hearing. Andy |
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"Classical performers hearing-damaged" - Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281
"Andy Cowley" wrote in message ... Andre Jute wrote: Andre Jute Precision is the first scientific virtue Second to honesty, but you wouldn't know about that. It appears that your accusation about Arnie is in fact Jute Lie No. 1.618 * 10^99. Orchestral musicians _do_ indeed suffer from noise induced hearing damage. Care to apologise? Andy Sorry to butt in, Andy, when you are all having such a good time:-) Just for the record, Arny said "classical performers" not orchestral musicians. There is a huge difference as Jenn pointed out. I work daily with classical performers who have never played in a symphony orchestra, and are never likely to do so. I find their levels of audio perception often quite astounding. Just my 2 cents. Carry on:-) Iain |
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"Classical performers hearing-damaged" - Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281
"MINe 109" wrote in message ... In article , Jenn wrote: http://homepages.kdsi.net/~sherman/hearingloss.htm "But Furtwängler's story illustrates a downside. To fill the larger halls with sufficient sound, the voices, instruments and ensembles had to crank up to potentially ear-damaging levels. Countless violists, who sit right in front of the brass, have been deafened as a result. 1. The violinists don't sit "right in front of the brass". 2. The last sentence is obvious hyperbole. "Deafened"? Careful! It says "violists." Stephen Was this Arny again? Maybe he has special information relating to baroque (pre-classical) ensembles, where the viol, with six strings, was indeed used. But, there again, perhaps he just can't spell:-)) Iain |
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"Classical performers hearing-damaged" - Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281
In article ,
"Iain Churches" wrote: "MINe 109" wrote in message ... In article , Jenn wrote: http://homepages.kdsi.net/~sherman/hearingloss.htm "... Countless violists, who sit right in front of the brass, have been deafened as a result. 1. The violinists don't sit "right in front of the brass". 2. The last sentence is obvious hyperbole. "Deafened"? Careful! It says "violists." Was this Arny again? Maybe he has special information relating to baroque (pre-classical) ensembles, where the viol, with six strings, was indeed used. Someone would have to hit you with one to damage your hearing! But, there again, perhaps he just can't spell:-)) That's proven, but it wasn't him in this case. Arny knows about deafening musicians from his volunteer job running monitor mixes. Stephen |
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"Classical performers hearing-damaged" - Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281
"Iain Churches" wrote in message ... Just for the record, Arny said "classical performers" not orchestral musicians. There is a huge difference as Jenn pointed out. It's just more defensive hair-splitting. Fact is that musical instruments and voices can easily be loud enough that they will damage any ears that are nearby, especially after protracted exposures. Look, perfectly innocent and common experiences like cutting the grass can damage your ears. Just because its done in the pursuit of art doesn't make it perfectly safe. |
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"Classical performers hearing-damaged" - Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281
On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:53:26 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote: Look, perfectly innocent and common experiences like cutting the grass can damage your ears. Just because its done in the pursuit of art doesn't make it perfectly safe. I'd be interested in seeing someone cut the grass in the pursuit of art. BTW, thanks for admitting that you've damaged your hearing, since you're on the record as having cut the grass without hearing protection when growing up. and, since youa re in your 60s, 1/4 of your peers have significant hearing loss. Couple that with all of that live recording you claim to do and all of the work in the automotive manufacturing business that you've done, it's a wonder that you can even hear your chruch organ. |
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"Classical performers hearing-damaged" - Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281
On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:07:32 -0600, dave weil
wrote: On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:53:26 -0500, "Arny Krueger" wrote: Look, perfectly innocent and common experiences like cutting the grass can damage your ears. Just because its done in the pursuit of art doesn't make it perfectly safe. I'd be interested in seeing someone cut the grass in the pursuit of art. http://www.iger.bbsrc.ac.uk/Community/GrassArt.htm You lose. |
#30
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"Classical performers hearing-damaged" - Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281
On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 19:12:48 +0000, Goofball_star_dot_etal
wrote: On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:07:32 -0600, dave weil wrote: On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:53:26 -0500, "Arny Krueger" wrote: Look, perfectly innocent and common experiences like cutting the grass can damage your ears. Just because its done in the pursuit of art doesn't make it perfectly safe. I'd be interested in seeing someone cut the grass in the pursuit of art. http://www.iger.bbsrc.ac.uk/Community/GrassArt.htm You lose. No, YOU lose, because there's nothing there about "cutting the grass". BTW, I have no doubt that SOMEBODY has done it. People have certainly done it with grain and corn and just about ANYTHING can be done in the name of art (one artist designated a column of air above a certain plot of land as "art"). Heck, artistic grass cutting is done at American Football stadiums and baseball stadiums all the time. I'm sure that Arnold thanks you for attempting to protect his mangling of the English language though. Shame that you exposed your lack of comprehension skills though. |
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"Classical performers hearing-damaged" - Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281
On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:30:07 -0600, dave weil
wrote: On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 19:12:48 +0000, Goofball_star_dot_etal wrote: On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:07:32 -0600, dave weil wrote: On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:53:26 -0500, "Arny Krueger" wrote: Look, perfectly innocent and common experiences like cutting the grass can damage your ears. Just because its done in the pursuit of art doesn't make it perfectly safe. I'd be interested in seeing someone cut the grass in the pursuit of art. http://www.iger.bbsrc.ac.uk/Community/GrassArt.htm You lose. No, YOU lose, because there's nothing there about "cutting the grass". I've seen it, boyo. It was cut alright, mum knows her grass.. They probably get some deaf sod like a classical performer to do it. Have some mo http://www.artsadmin.co.uk/artists/a...hesistext.html BTW, I have no doubt that SOMEBODY has done it. People have certainly done it with grain and corn and just about ANYTHING can be done in the name of art (one artist designated a column of air above a certain plot of land as "art"). Heck, artistic grass cutting is done at American Football stadiums and baseball stadiums all the time. I'm sure that Arnold thanks you for attempting to protect his mangling of the English language though. Hardly Shame that you exposed your lack of comprehension skills though. Better than your welsh, I think. |
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"Classical performers hearing-damaged" - Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281
"Goofball_star_dot_etal" wrote in message : Better than your *welsh , I think. : * so your real name could be Latte Tod Rats Labfoocgh ... interesting :-) R. |
#33
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"Classical performers hearing-damaged" - Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281
"Jenn" wrote in message ... In article .com, "Andre Jute" wrote: Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281: professional musicians, particularly classical performers, are likely to be hearing-damaged due to exposure to loud sounds Prove this vicious generalization, Krueger. It's clearly a false statement. Bad bet. Arny doesn't post things like this if he doesn't have data to back them up. |
#34
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"Classical performers hearing-damaged" - Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281
"Andre Jute" wrote in message oups.com... Andre Jute wrote: Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281: professional musicians, particularly classical performers, are likely to be hearing-damaged due to exposure to loud sounds Prove this vicious generalization, Krueger. While in this thread I'm glad to see Poopie do some work for a change rather than just carp uselessly, the context of Krueger's lie was not about orchestral performers. You're lying again. He specifically mentioned them. In fact, Krueger doesn't know about which musicians he made this blanket accusion of hearing damage because I never said which performers I used. Actually you did in at least one post. That is why Krueger is being asked specifically to: Prove this vicious generalization, Krueger. Get used to the fact that if it's about audio, Arny will have data to back him up. Andre Jute Precision is the first scientific virtue And one you don't seem to possess. |
#35
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"Classical performers hearing-damaged" - Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281
"Andre Jute" wrote in message ups.com... Arny Krueger wrote: "Andre Jute" wrote in message oups.com... Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281: professional musicians, particularly classical performers, are likely to be hearing-damaged due to exposure to loud sounds Prove this vicious generalization, Krueger. Krueger, I know all that stuff below. But it is about orchestral musicians and singers and jazzmen. They're not the musicians I used for my tests. THEN WHAT KIND OF MUSICANS DID YOU USE? You rashly made a statement in a particular context about musicians whose description you did not know. Now I'm asking you to prove it. None of the stuff below is more than marginally relevant. Stop wriggling and get on with your proof. STOP PLAYING GAMES AND GI E SPECIFICS ON THE KIND OF PEOPLE YOU USED AND YOU'LL GET A SPECIFIC ANSWER So far data has been provided on many diffferent kind of perormers, what did you use? People who play the Zither? Ducimer? Autoharp? Harmonica? Stop being such a **** and get on with it. You want a specific answer give specific data. Andre Jute Precision is the essential art of science http://www.dizziness-and-balance.com...g/hearing.html "Musical instruments can generate considerable sound and thus can also cause hearing loss. The most damaging type of sounds is in the high-frequencies. The piccolo generates sound levels up to 112 dB.roughly equivalent to a jackhammer at 30 feet. "Violins and violas can be sufficiently loud to cause permanent hearing loss. This is typically worse in the left ear which is nearer the instrument. Unlike other instruments, the ability to hear the high-frequency harmonics is crucial to these musicians. Mutes can be used while practicing to reduce long term exposure. (Karlsson, Lundquist et al. 1983; Ostri, Eller et al. 1989; Royster, Royster et al. 1991; Sataloff 1991; Palin 1994; Teie 1998; Obeling and Poulsen 1999; Hoppmann 2001; Kahari, Axelsson et al. 2001). In a study of rock/Jazz musicions, almost 3/4 had a hearing disorder, with hearing loss, hyperacusis and tinnitus being the most common maladies. (Kaharit, Zachau et al. 2003) http://homepages.kdsi.net/~sherman/hearingloss.htm "But Furtwängler's story illustrates a downside. To fill the larger halls with sufficient sound, the voices, instruments and ensembles had to crank up to potentially ear-damaging levels. Countless violists, who sit right in front of the brass, have been deafened as a result. And some veteran opera singers, thanks to years of being screeched at by their fellow divas at close range, have lost a good deal of hearing. http://www.lhh.org/noise/facts/music.htm Studies show that 37% of rock musicians and 52% of classical musicians have a measurable hearing loss (Chasin, M., 1998). And on, and on, and on... |
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"Classical performers hearing-damaged" - Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281
wrote in message nk.net... "Jenn" wrote in message ... In article .com, "Andre Jute" wrote: Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281: professional musicians, particularly classical performers, are likely to be hearing-damaged due to exposure to loud sounds Prove this vicious generalization, Krueger. It's clearly a false statement. Bad bet. Arny doesn't post things like this if he doesn't have data to back them up. It definitely separated the posers from the players. |
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"Classical performers hearing-damaged" - Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281
"Goofball_star_dot_etal" wrote in message ... On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:07:32 -0600, dave weil wrote: On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:53:26 -0500, "Arny Krueger" wrote: Look, perfectly innocent and common experiences like cutting the grass can damage your ears. Just because its done in the pursuit of art doesn't make it perfectly safe. I'd be interested in seeing someone cut the grass in the pursuit of art. http://www.iger.bbsrc.ac.uk/Community/GrassArt.htm You lose. Again. ;-) |
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"Classical performers hearing-damaged" - Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281
On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 19:50:45 +0000, Goofball_star_dot_etal
wrote: I'm sure that Arnold thanks you for attempting to protect his mangling of the English language though. Hardly OK, so he DOESN'T thank you. Ungrateful sod. |
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"Classical performers hearing-damaged" - Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281
On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 15:57:26 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote: I'd be interested in seeing someone cut the grass in the pursuit of art. http://www.iger.bbsrc.ac.uk/Community/GrassArt.htm You lose. Again. ;-) As previously pointed out, nothing in there about cutting the grass. So YOU lose. Again. |
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