[Danny ~~_/) ~~_/) ~~_/) ~~]

On Sep 12, 1:46*pm, Tobiah wrote:
Younger then that,
you might have had a taste in music but rarely will *you be
accomplished. The per capita musician has dropped like crazy do to
changes of times..... IMO

At least it makes the skill more rare. *Maybe I'll get a spot on
a talk show in 20 years as an old timer that makes music by stretching
strings across a box - with no computer.

And I, one that can play an arpeggio with fingers instead of pushing
the button and twisting the rate knob.

[PStamler]

On Sep 12, 3:23*pm, "Danny ~~_/) ~~_/) ~~_/) ~~"
wrote:
On Sep 12, 1:42*pm, PStamler wrote:



On Sep 12, 10:22*am, "Danny ~~_/) ~~_/) ~~_/) wrote:

We're in a time when very few people have

ever really studied music. You pretty much have to be over 40 to be in
a generation that bothered to learn an instrument. Younger then that,
you might have had a taste in music but rarely will *you be
accomplished. The per capita musician has dropped like crazy do to
changes of times..... IMO

I'm not sure you're right about that. I work at a university which is
loaded with musicians (we have a very active music school, but a lot
of the students in the rest of the university also play). Many of them
are accomplished beyond my wildest dreams.

Peace,
Paul

Sounds like you are great musical environment. I'm sure you'd feel
different if you were not there.

I dunno. This city (St. Louis) is positively crawling with musicians.
I see an awful lot of people playing, singing, rapping, etc..I think
you're too pessimistic.

Peace,
Paul

[Trevor]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
The problem with disposable gear is that you get to the point where you
can work with it... and then it breaks and you replace it and then you
have
to learn a whole new piece of gear...

So just buy the same one again. But since we were talking mainly about cheap
mixers, do you really find it that hard to swap from one to another? I
regularly use Yamaha, Behringer, Mackie, Allen and Heath, Soundcraft and
Midas without a problem. How hard is it to just make one swap?
Now if were were just talking about digital mixers, (which are hardly
disposable items at the moment) then it is a little more difficult I guess.

Trevor.

[Mike Rivers]

On 9/12/2011 11:39 PM, Trevor wrote:

So just buy the same one again. But since we were talking mainly about cheap
mixers, do you really find it that hard to swap from one to another?

You can buy something similar, and there really isn't that
much different as long as you stick with cheap mixers, But
start adding features that make them attractive to the small
budget user and that's where the product life is pretty
short, usually because those added features involve
software, either directly or indirectly.

For example, you buy a particular mixer because it includes
a Firewire audio interface for negligible added cost. When
it fails, you may find that either there's no direct
replacement, or the closest functional replacement turns out
to have a driver that's incompatible with your computer. Or,
you make one that still works obsolete when you get a new
computer with a new operating system, or an incompatible
Firewire port.

So, not only do you lose your mixer, you lose your
computer's audio I/O.

regularly use Yamaha, Behringer, Mackie, Allen and Heath, Soundcraft and
Midas without a problem. How hard is it to just make one swap?

I was able to replace a Mackie 1640 with a 1640i, and a
1402VLZ Pro with a 1402 VLZ3. But interfacing analog gear is
simple. When it comes to the digital side, there are unknown
or unpredictable incompatibilities lurking around every corner.

Now if were were just talking about digital mixers, (which are hardly
disposable items at the moment) then it is a little more difficult I guess.

It depends on who's defining "disposable." To the part time
musician, essentially nothing is disposable except maybe
guitar strings. Not mixers, not mics, not even cables. But a
sound company that has a good share of business providing a
lot of small sound systems for conventions and small parties
can take great advantage of a shop full of $400 "disposable"
mixers. One or two gigs and the mixer is paid for. But the
struggling personal user who occasionally sells a few tunes
as downloads simply doesn't have income from music to pay
for his gear. It has to come out of some other budget.




--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
Scott Dorsey wrote:

Mike Rivers wrote:
On 9/9/2011 11:53 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:

Everyone has taken a cue from the computer people and now it's common
to
announce products years before they are actually available (if they
even
become available at all).

Remember the Alesis ADAT? The first NAMM press conference
for that was at least a year and a half before release. But
at least they demonstrated it by sticking a video cassette
into a slot in the wall of the booth where it got swallowed
by a VCR. They didn't even play any audio from it.

Sure, but IBM was selling products like that fifty years earlier!
--scott

Getting in shape to work with Gates.

More like Gates getting out of shape so MS could follow IBM into being a
victim of their own success. It would be interesting to count how many of
their proverbial nine lives that MS has already used up.

[Scott Dorsey]

Trevor wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
The problem with disposable gear is that you get to the point where you
can work with it... and then it breaks and you replace it and then you
have
to learn a whole new piece of gear...

So just buy the same one again.

That was LAST week's model.

But since we were talking mainly about cheap
mixers, do you really find it that hard to swap from one to another? I
regularly use Yamaha, Behringer, Mackie, Allen and Heath, Soundcraft and
Midas without a problem. How hard is it to just make one swap?

A major pain. The EQ on them all sounds totally different.. the center
frequencies are in different places. The knobs are all in different places.
I need to be able to go for a knob without taking my eye off the score or
off the band; if I have to look down at what I am doing something is wrong.

And then there are the real annoyances, like the consoles that have the
lights that come on to show the channel strip is muted, vs. the ones that have
the lights that come on to show that the channel strip is active. If you
have to spend a fraction of a second thinking about it, you just made yourself
a fraction of a second late on a cue.

Now if were were just talking about digital mixers, (which are hardly
disposable items at the moment) then it is a little more difficult I guess.

The digital mixers are just as disposable as the analogue ones these days,
on the low end of the market, but the problem is the same.

I get used to a piece of equipment, I get very fast on it to the point
where I can think about the music and not the equipment, and then it gets
changed. For me it's not all that bad since I pretty much drive my own
console around and it's a tank that is probably going to outlast me,
but I deal with it constantly with other gear.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Trevor]

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...
It depends on who's defining "disposable." To the part time musician,
essentially nothing is disposable except maybe guitar strings. Not mixers,
not mics, not even cables.

Well that's just silly. Disposable is anything that costs as much or more to
fix or have fixed than it costs to replace (allowing for down time for
repair, plus warranty on new items)
If I can fix a $10 item myself in 5 minutes with no parts required, I don't
dispose of it. IF I can't fix, or get fixed a $500 mixer for less than
$250-$300 it's disposable as far as I'm concerned. And sometimes I can even
sell that $500 mixer with one or two dead channels for $150, so that brings
my "buy new rather than repair" break point down to $150-$200.

Others get to make their own choices of course, but I'm totally amazed when
someone spends nearly the cost of a new item on repairs, AND waits weeks for
it to be repaired!

Trevor.

[Trevor]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
So just buy the same one again.

That was LAST week's model.

And the latest Behringer analog mixers are much the same as those of ten
years ago, only better and cheaper. Same for most of the other brands too.


A major pain. The EQ on them all sounds totally different.. the center
frequencies are in different places. The knobs are all in different
places.
I need to be able to go for a knob without taking my eye off the score or
off the band; if I have to look down at what I am doing something is
wrong.

Yes, you need to use it before the gig. In any case the new models from the
same brand rarely change layout drastically. Or even EQ frequencies etc.
So as I said, buy the same again IF you are so happy with it.


And then there are the real annoyances, like the consoles that have the
lights that come on to show the channel strip is muted, vs. the ones that
have
the lights that come on to show that the channel strip is active.

Right, annoying when swapping from one brand to another which I have to do
often. NOT so for those simply replacing a broken mixer with the same brand.


If you
have to spend a fraction of a second thinking about it, you just made
yourself
a fraction of a second late on a cue.

Right, but if I have to check the led's to know whether to turn a channel on
or not, I'm not paying attention.


The digital mixers are just as disposable as the analogue ones these days,
on the low end of the market, but the problem is the same.

The purchase cost is usually high enough to justify repair at the moment.
That will change of course.


I get used to a piece of equipment, I get very fast on it to the point
where I can think about the music and not the equipment, and then it gets
changed. For me it's not all that bad since I pretty much drive my own
console around and it's a tank that is probably going to outlast me,
but I deal with it constantly with other gear.

Well it's just another skill set knowing the quirks of many brands, and
having used them all often enough not to worry about using any of them.
In any case the argument under discussion is about making ONE swap to a
similar mixer of the same brand, rather than pay for, and wait for repairs
to the old one.
It's usually a simple decision for me.

Trevor.

[Mike Rivers]

On 9/14/2011 1:52 AM, Trevor wrote:

Disposable is anything that costs as much or more to
fix or have fixed than it costs to replace (allowing for down time for
repair, plus warranty on new items)

That might be the textbook description of "expendable" but
people who are stretching their budget to do something that
they want to do don't think that it will ever need
replacement, at least not until they decide that they've
outgrown the capabilities.

There's really no reason why a mixer can't be made to not
need fixing for at least 10 or 15 years, and do it
inexpensively, particularly if it's being used in a
studio-like application where it gets tossed into the van a
couple of times a week. Why can't they build television set
reliability into mixers that are priced like television
sets? That's a rhetorical question, of course. I know the
answer.

If I can fix a $10 item myself in 5 minutes with no parts required, I don't
dispose of it. IF I can't fix, or get fixed a $500 mixer for less than
$250-$300 it's disposable as far as I'm concerned.

But we're talking about people here who say "My mixer hums.
Does anyone have a schematic?" They barely know how to
change a fuse. These people are totally dependent on a shop
for repairs, and they may not even be able to find one. Nor
do they expect to pay for a couple of hours of labor even if
it only needs a $5 part.

You and I can say that these people shouldn't be buying
their own studio gear but should let someone else do it and
pay for recording by the hour when they're ready, but the
temptatio is just too great and this isn't going to change.

Others get to make their own choices of course, but I'm totally amazed when
someone spends nearly the cost of a new item on repairs, AND waits weeks for
it to be repaired!

The reality, I think, is that few do, and they end up
replacing a $400 mixer with a new $350 mixer that does more,
but they had counted on a lifetime investment of $400, not
$750. Remember, these are people who, as a rule, are getting
no income from their investment in recording equipment,
though some do get a return from live sound gear if they
have a working band.

Go to a school that has a music program and you'll take
business courses that will teach you about this stuff. But
when you have to convince the family that you need a new
mixer when the kids need a computer for school and the
budget might not accommodate both.



--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[Mike Rivers]

On 9/14/2011 2:10 AM, Trevor wrote:

Yes, you need to use it before the gig. In any case the new models from the
same brand rarely change layout drastically. Or even EQ frequencies etc.
So as I said, buy the same again IF you are so happy with it.

This is another of those "human nature" things for the class
of humans I've been talking about here. Your Mackie mixer
fails after 5 years and you read about how well built and
reliable they are. You will never buy another Mackie product
as long as you live (and will declare that to the world on
Gearslutz or someplace like that). So three years later,
your Behringer or your Soundcraft fails.

After a few cycles, you'll catch on, but to most people
served by the low end, the concept of cost-of-ownership
beyond initial purchase price is just something they never
think about.

It doesn't get any better, really, with Midas or Yamaha pro
gear either, you just do business differently. Here's where
you not only invest in the equipment, but you also invest in
building up repair skills or resources, spare parts, and
have backup plans so you're not out of a $2,000 job because
your $10,000 mixer is on the fritz.



--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[Trevor]

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...
There's really no reason why a mixer can't be made to not need fixing for
at least 10 or 15 years, and do it inexpensively,

Right, my ten year old Behringer 16 channel would be an example I guess.


Why can't they build television set reliability into mixers that are
priced like television sets?

Gee, I'm glad they don't. Most new TV's are NOT made any better than cheap
mixers. I know someone who paid $10k for a plasma screen about 8 years ago.
It lasted less than 4 years and was not repairable for less than a new one.
That's over $2.5k per year which is a lot more than I'd want to spend. Just
like all other cheap electronics, the cost has now fallen enough that you
may get sufficient value out of it before it goes to the tip. And the ONLY
reason is the cost of Chinese labour. If you want cheap repairs, they need
to be done there as well.


But we're talking about people here who say "My mixer hums. Does anyone
have a schematic?" They barely know how to change a fuse. These people
are totally dependent on a shop for repairs, and they may not even be able
to find one. Nor do they expect to pay for a couple of hours of labor even
if it only needs a $5 part.

Who cares what they expect! I meet so many people who happily pay over $100
per hour to have their car serviced, but expect to get their electronics
fixed for less than $10 per hour. They can send them back to China if they
want, or get a reality check!


You and I can say that these people shouldn't be buying their own studio
gear but should let someone else do it and pay for recording by the hour
when they're ready, but the temptatio is just too great and this isn't
going to change.

I have no problem with them doing what they want. Most people learn the hard
way.


The reality, I think, is that few do, and they end up replacing a $400
mixer with a new $350 mixer that does more, but they had counted on a
lifetime investment of $400, not $750.

Unrealistic expectations are their problem. And $750 is not the end of it
unless they die before the next mixer does, or give up the need for one.


Go to a school that has a music program and you'll take business courses
that will teach you about this stuff.

I already seem to have a far better handle on it than you, and all the
stupid people you seem worried about. Thanks all the same.

Trevor.

[Trevor]

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...
This is another of those "human nature" things for the class of humans
I've been talking about here. Your Mackie mixer fails after 5 years and
you read about how well built and reliable they are. You will never buy
another Mackie product as long as you live

But WOULD spend the same amount to have it repaired instead? How silly.


So three years later, your Behringer or your Soundcraft fails.
After a few cycles, you'll catch on, but to most people served by the low
end, the concept of cost-of-ownership beyond initial purchase price is
just something they never think about.

Their problem. What's YOUR point?

Trevor.

[Mike Rivers]

On 9/14/2011 10:55 PM, Trevor wrote:

Why can't they build television set reliability into mixers that are
priced like television sets?

Gee, I'm glad they don't. Most new TV's are NOT made any better than cheap
mixers. I know someone who paid $10k for a plasma screen about 8 years ago.
It lasted less than 4 years and was not repairable for less than a new one.

well, this is new technology. Probably it was the screen
that failed, not the TV electronics. CRTs rarely failed. I
have a 19" LCD TV set that cost $179. If it fails in 4 years
I won't be all that unhappy. But the Zenith that I've had
since about 1983 is still working.


I meet so many people who happily pay over $100
per hour to have their car serviced, but expect to get their electronics
fixed for less than $10 per hour.

That's because their cars cost $30,000 and their electronics
(with the exception of large flat screen TVs) cost less than
10% of that.

I have no problem with them doing what they want. Most people learn the hard
way.

Or they don't learn at all, or they learn to accept short
useful life for low investment cost and the opportunity to
get something with more features for the same cost the next
time around. Some people like that.

I already seem to have a far better handle on it than you, and all the
stupid people you seem worried about. Thanks all the same.

You may understand business (though not better than I do)
but you don't understand people. That's not my problem, and
obviously not yours either. But if you were in the business
of repairing electronics, I'll bet you'd care, or at least
understand why you can't sustain your business.


--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[Mike Rivers]

On 9/14/2011 11:00 PM, Trevor wrote:

So three years later, your Behringer or your Soundcraft fails.
After a few cycles, you'll catch on, but to most people served by the low
end, the concept of cost-of-ownership beyond initial purchase price is
just something they never think about.

Their problem. What's YOUR point?


If I have a point at all, it's that poor people manage their
money differently than wealthy or well-financed people. It's
a matter of cash flow.



--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[Scott Dorsey]

Trevor wrote:

Who cares what they expect! I meet so many people who happily pay over $100
per hour to have their car serviced, but expect to get their electronics
fixed for less than $10 per hour. They can send them back to China if they
want, or get a reality check!

Well, part of the problem is that it takes so many hours to fix a lot of
this gear.

With an API console, you remove two screws, pull the channel strip out,
and there it is on the bench so you can work on it. With a Mackie 8-buss
it's an hour's job just getting the board exposed and then another hour
getting it back. So you're paying a couple hundred dollars just to get
the thing _ready_ to do the repair....
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Audio1]

On 9/15/2011 8:50 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
wrote:

Who cares what they expect! I meet so many people who happily pay over $100
per hour to have their car serviced, but expect to get their electronics
fixed for less than $10 per hour. They can send them back to China if they
want, or get a reality check!

Well, part of the problem is that it takes so many hours to fix a lot of
this gear.

With an API console, you remove two screws, pull the channel strip out,
and there it is on the bench so you can work on it. With a Mackie 8-buss
it's an hour's job just getting the board exposed and then another hour
getting it back. So you're paying a couple hundred dollars just to get
the thing _ready_ to do the repair....
--scott

I repaired one of the early Mackie 8-buss consoles. I found out it's
cheaper, both in terms of parts and labor, to simply swap out circuit
boards than to go looking for bad individual components.

[Scott Dorsey]

In article , Audio1 wrote:
On 9/15/2011 8:50 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:

With an API console, you remove two screws, pull the channel strip out,
and there it is on the bench so you can work on it. With a Mackie 8-buss
it's an hour's job just getting the board exposed and then another hour
getting it back. So you're paying a couple hundred dollars just to get
the thing _ready_ to do the repair....

I repaired one of the early Mackie 8-buss consoles. I found out it's
cheaper, both in terms of parts and labor, to simply swap out circuit
boards than to go looking for bad individual components.

It's all one board in those things.... swapping out the circuit board is
more or less like swapping the whole console out. Which, come to think of
it, is what people do....
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...

On 9/14/2011 10:55 PM, Trevor wrote:

Why can't they build television set reliability into mixers that are
priced like television sets?

Gee, I'm glad they don't. Most new TV's are NOT made any better than
cheap
mixers. I know someone who paid $10k for a plasma screen about 8 years
ago.
It lasted less than 4 years and was not repairable for less than a new
one.

Were these persons so clueless that did not know that they were investing in
the bleeding edge?

You can always tell the pioneers by the arrows in their backs. Been there,
done that. After 4 years my $900 first-on-the-block CDP 101 could be
replaced with a technically superior product for about 1/4 the price, and 4
years after that, the cost was cut in half again and the product was even
better.

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...

Trevor wrote:

Who cares what they expect! I meet so many people who happily pay over
$100
per hour to have their car serviced, but expect to get their electronics
fixed for less than $10 per hour. They can send them back to China if they
want, or get a reality check!

Well, part of the problem is that it takes so many hours to fix a lot of
this gear.

With an API console, you remove two screws, pull the channel strip out,
and there it is on the bench so you can work on it. With a Mackie 8-buss
it's an hour's job just getting the board exposed and then another hour
getting it back. So you're paying a couple hundred dollars just to get
the thing _ready_ to do the repair....

With a modern car it always seems that acessing the failing part requires
removing one or more unrelated parts that block your access.

[Scott Dorsey]

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message

With an API console, you remove two screws, pull the channel strip out,
and there it is on the bench so you can work on it. With a Mackie 8-buss
it's an hour's job just getting the board exposed and then another hour
getting it back. So you're paying a couple hundred dollars just to get
the thing _ready_ to do the repair....

With a modern car it always seems that acessing the failing part requires
removing one or more unrelated parts that block your access.

It gets better and it gets worse. My father's Mercury requires you to
pull the radiator to get to the plugs, but you only have to replace the
plugs every 100,000 miles so it's not a big worry.

On the other hand, my mechanic owns a new Lamborghini, which requires you to
pull the engine in order to replace the water pump.

But... these are basically consumer products to varying degrees. Compare
these with a modern Mack truck, which is designed for rapid and easy repair
at the expense of up-front cost. Or NASCAR vehicles, which are designed to
be completely torn down and rebuilt at a quick pit stop.

The design changes based upon the application, and the ease of repairability
should change based upon the need for repair and how heavily the equipment
is expected to be used. And you expect professional gear to be both easier
to repair and more reliable than consumer gear, and you should expect to pay
for that up front.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...

It gets better and it gets worse. My father's Mercury requires you to
pull the radiator to get to the plugs, but you only have to replace the
plugs every 100,000 miles so it's not a big worry.

My memory leaps to 1967 and a Hawk site south of Homestead, Fla. Our Radar
maintenance warrant officer tools up in his new Mercury Cyclone GT,
featuring a 390 V8 in a body that was designed for an inline 6 or the new
260 V8. You couldn't change about half of the plugs without at minimum
loosening up the motor mounts and lifting the front of the engine. Of course
this was in the days of coil/distributor ignition where plug life was maybe
6000 miles. Shortly after he bought it, it developed a random miss that the
dealer couldn't (or wouldn't) fix...

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 14:00:26 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...

It gets better and it gets worse. My father's Mercury requires you to
pull the radiator to get to the plugs, but you only have to replace the
plugs every 100,000 miles so it's not a big worry.

My memory leaps to 1967 and a Hawk site south of Homestead, Fla. Our Radar
maintenance warrant officer tools up in his new Mercury Cyclone GT,
featuring a 390 V8 in a body that was designed for an inline 6 or the new
260 V8. You couldn't change about half of the plugs without at minimum
loosening up the motor mounts and lifting the front of the engine. Of course
this was in the days of coil/distributor ignition where plug life was maybe
6000 miles. Shortly after he bought it, it developed a random miss that the
dealer couldn't (or wouldn't) fix...


If you want to change the spark plugs in an old Bugatti Royale, your
first job is to remove the rear axle.

d

[Ron Capik[_3_]]

On 9/15/2011 12:40 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Arny wrote:
"Scott wrote in message

With an API console, you remove two screws, pull the channel strip out,
and there it is on the bench so you can work on it. With a Mackie 8-buss
it's an hour's job just getting the board exposed and then another hour
getting it back. So you're paying a couple hundred dollars just to get
the thing _ready_ to do the repair....

With a modern car it always seems that acessing the failing part requires
removing one or more unrelated parts that block your access.

...snip...

On the other hand, my mechanic owns a new Lamborghini, which requires you to
pull the engine in order to replace the water pump.

...snip...

--scott

I know the feeling. I had to do that with my
old Lotus.

Later...
Ron Capik
--

[Trevor]

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...
well, this is new technology. Probably it was the screen that failed, not
the TV electronics.

Right, but no comfort when you are out of pocket $10k after 4 years or less.

CRTs rarely failed. I have a 19" LCD TV set that cost $179. If it fails in
4 years I won't be all that unhappy. But the Zenith that I've had since
about 1983 is still working.

And my 1989 27" Sony that cost $1600 has LONG since gone to the tip after
being repaired 3 times. I replaced it with a no name $300, 30" widescreen
CRT which is far better than the Sony ever was. (and I was a trintron fan
for many years) So the Sony turned out to be disposable and very expensive
(especially after repair costs!), whilst the no name Chinese set is FAR
cheaper, far better, and still disposable. If I get ten years I will be a
happy man, and that looks very likely now. Even if I had only gotten 3 years
it was still only going to be $100 per year, MUCH less than the Sony cost.
Modern electronics coupled with cheap Chinese manufacture has been a REAL
saving for most people. I'm SO glad I didn't have to pay $1600 again for
another 27" 4:3 CRT!!! When the $300 set fails, there is no way it can be
fixed for less money these days. And there is NO WAY I would have paid $300
to have the Sony repaired in leiu of the brand new 30" widescreen Chinese
one I replaced it with!!!!


I meet so many people who happily pay over $100
per hour to have their car serviced, but expect to get their electronics
fixed for less than $10 per hour.

That's because their cars cost $30,000 and their electronics (with the
exception of large flat screen TVs) cost less than 10% of that.

EXACTLY my point, so do YOU really think the technicians that repair your
electronics are worth 1/10th that of the mechanics who repair your car, just
so you can get them fixed for less than the cost of replacing them with new
Chinese built ones! If you do then you obviously know why you can't find a
competent electronics repair technician to work for that right?


I have no problem with them doing what they want. Most people learn the
hard
way.

Or they don't learn at all,

True for many unfortunately.


or they learn to accept short useful life for low investment cost and the
opportunity to get something with more features for the same cost the next
time around. Some people like that.

Exactly, I can't see the problem. It's nice to have the choice IMO.


I already seem to have a far better handle on it than you, and all the
stupid people you seem worried about. Thanks all the same.

You may understand business (though not better than I do)

Your bloated ego is showing again. :-)


but you don't understand people.

Seems I do, that's why I accept the choices many people currently make and
you bemoan them!


That's not my problem, and obviously not yours either. But if you were in
the business of repairing electronics, I'll bet you'd care, or at least
understand why you can't sustain your business.

Lets get this straight, *I'M* the one who stated all along why it is
uneconomic to repair cheap items in high labor cost countries, and YOU
bemoaned the fact that so many items are disposable these days. IF you have
now seen the light, GOOD, but don't rewrite what I have said to pretend you
are as superior as you like to think you are.
Anyway I'm glad you now appear to agree with what I said all along, you
*can't* sustain a business repairing cheap Chinese electronics, and many
people are happy to have a choice of buying cheap disposable items rather
than not at all.

Trevor.

[Trevor]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
With an API console, you remove two screws, pull the channel strip out,
and there it is on the bench so you can work on it. With a Mackie 8-buss
it's an hour's job just getting the board exposed and then another hour
getting it back. So you're paying a couple hundred dollars just to get
the thing _ready_ to do the repair....

Exactly, making them that way is cheaper to manufacture, repairs are not a
consideration. YOU have the choice of buying the API rather than the Mackie,
and whilst there is no comparison in quality, *I* wouldn't expect the TCO to
be cheaper, just because repair time is! :-)

Trevor.

[Trevor]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
With a modern car it always seems that acessing the failing part requires
removing one or more unrelated parts that block your access.

And some not all that modern. I'm always amazed how difficult it is to
replace timing belts on so many cars considering they are a regular service
item. One GF had a local car that required a belt replacement every 40,000
Km (25k miles) at around $500 a time (not including other service costs).
Left it a bit long once and it cost over $2k for repairs :-(
So not only was the belt overstressed for the application, NO thought was
given to making it easy to replace.

Trevor.

[Trevor]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
Gee, I'm glad they don't. Most new TV's are NOT made any better than
cheap mixers. I know someone who paid $10k for a plasma screen about 8
years ago. It lasted less than 4 years and was not repairable for less
than
a new one.

Were these persons so clueless that did not know that they were investing
in the bleeding edge?

Unfortuately yes, but they could afford it obviously, so I have little
sympathy.


You can always tell the pioneers by the arrows in their backs. Been there,
done that. After 4 years my $900 first-on-the-block CDP 101 could be
replaced with a technically superior product for about 1/4 the price, and
4 years after that, the cost was cut in half again and the product was
even better.

Right, lets not talk about the $4k I spent in 1983 dollars for a PC then,
but I'm so glad I don't have to spend that now for ***FAR*** better
performance.
I would NOT be a happier man if the cost of a new PC still made fixing that
old one an economic proposition! :-)

Trevor.

[John Williamson]

Trevor wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
With a modern car it always seems that acessing the failing part requires
removing one or more unrelated parts that block your access.

And some not all that modern. I'm always amazed how difficult it is to
replace timing belts on so many cars considering they are a regular service
item. One GF had a local car that required a belt replacement every 40,000
Km (25k miles) at around $500 a time (not including other service costs).
Left it a bit long once and it cost over $2k for repairs :-(
So not only was the belt overstressed for the application, NO thought was
given to making it easy to replace.

Belts replaced chains, which suffered rattles and random failures. The
best way to set the timing is by gears, which if they're correctly
specified will last the life of the engine. They make an audible whining
noise which most people find annoying, so Ford used fibre gears, which
cured the noise problem, but they used to fail randomly every couple of
years, and needed a complete engine removal and stripdown to replace.

To be honest, how long should you expect a reinforced rubber band with
teeth moulded into it to last under the conditions in the average engine
bay? Bearing in mind that people want their cars to be as cheap as
possible, and a better timing method would put a hundred dollars or so
on the cost of building the engine.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Trevor]

"John Williamson" wrote in message
...
To be honest, how long should you expect a reinforced rubber band with
teeth moulded into it to last under the conditions in the average engine
bay? Bearing in mind that people want their cars to be as cheap as
possible, and a better timing method would put a hundred dollars or so on
the cost of building the engine.

Some last 200,000 km which is fine for most people. However it would simply
be proper design to make them easier to change for those expected to be
changed every couple of years or less.

Trevor.

[Scott Dorsey]

Trevor wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
With an API console, you remove two screws, pull the channel strip out,
and there it is on the bench so you can work on it. With a Mackie 8-buss
it's an hour's job just getting the board exposed and then another hour
getting it back. So you're paying a couple hundred dollars just to get
the thing _ready_ to do the repair....

Exactly, making them that way is cheaper to manufacture, repairs are not a
consideration. YOU have the choice of buying the API rather than the Mackie,
and whilst there is no comparison in quality, *I* wouldn't expect the TCO to
be cheaper, just because repair time is! :-)

TCO can be way, way cheaper on the API.

One lost session with a full orchestra sitting around cooling their heels
while you try and track down a temporary replacement will pay for a new
API a couple times over.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

"Trevor" wrote in message
u...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
Gee, I'm glad they don't. Most new TV's are NOT made any better than
cheap mixers. I know someone who paid $10k for a plasma screen about 8
years ago. It lasted less than 4 years and was not repairable for less
than
a new one.

Were these persons so clueless that did not know that they were investing
in the bleeding edge?

Unfortuately yes, but they could afford it obviously, so I have little
sympathy.


You can always tell the pioneers by the arrows in their backs. Been
there, done that. After 4 years my $900 first-on-the-block CDP 101 could
be replaced with a technically superior product for about 1/4 the price,
and 4 years after that, the cost was cut in half again and the product
was even better.

Right, lets not talk about the $4k I spent in 1983 dollars for a PC then,
but I'm so glad I don't have to spend that now for ***FAR*** better
performance.`

I spent $3K in the same time frame for a PC. 3 years later I spent about
$1200 for a better one. A machine with far, far, far better performance now
costs about $300.

I would NOT be a happier man if the cost of a new PC still made fixing
that old one an economic proposition! :-)

I have a friend who bought a 60" DLP HDCD maybe 4 years ago for about $3K.

I bought a nominally similar TV but with better performance last year for
under $1K and have seen it as low as $700 since then. This time I let
someone else gather the arrows with their back! ;-)

[hank alrich]

Trevor wrote:

I already seem to have a far better handle on it than you, and all the
stupid people you seem worried about. Thanks all the same.

If you hold tight to both your ears and pull really hard you might or
might not be able to extract your head from your ass.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[Trevor]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
TCO can be way, way cheaper on the API.

One lost session with a full orchestra sitting around cooling their heels
while you try and track down a temporary replacement will pay for a new
API a couple times over.

Well if you are using a full orchestra and a cheap Behringer (especially
with no backup to hand) you are too stupid to be in business in the first
place! There are a million possibilities between the two extremes however.
Not saying API don't have their place, just that TCO is *not* one of the
benefits.

Trevor.

[Trevor]

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
If you hold tight to both your ears and pull really hard you might or
might not be able to extract your head from your ass.

If that's all you can add to an argument, I'm glad I'm not as stupid as you
anyway.

Trevor.

[Scott Dorsey]

Trevor wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
TCO can be way, way cheaper on the API.

One lost session with a full orchestra sitting around cooling their heels
while you try and track down a temporary replacement will pay for a new
API a couple times over.

Well if you are using a full orchestra and a cheap Behringer (especially
with no backup to hand) you are too stupid to be in business in the first
place!

There are lots of them out there.

There's a guy using a Mackie 1604 for symphonic work for broadcast
in my area.

The consumer grade equipment has begun to permeate the entire industry.

There are a million possibilities between the two extremes however.
Not saying API don't have their place, just that TCO is *not* one of the
benefits.

The problem is that there aren't many possibilities between the two
extremes in terms of available equipment. The cheap consumer gear has
driven most of the mid-range equipment out of the market, so what you
have is the very cheap and the very expensive and little in-between today.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Trevor]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
The problem is that there aren't many possibilities between the two
extremes in terms of available equipment. The cheap consumer gear has
driven most of the mid-range equipment out of the market, so what you
have is the very cheap and the very expensive and little in-between today.

Not from my supliers, there still seems to be an adequate choice of
equipment, and I still have a choice how I choose to implement it
thankfully.

Trevor.

[Scott Dorsey]

Trevor wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
The problem is that there aren't many possibilities between the two
extremes in terms of available equipment. The cheap consumer gear has
driven most of the mid-range equipment out of the market, so what you
have is the very cheap and the very expensive and little in-between today.

Not from my supliers, there still seems to be an adequate choice of
equipment, and I still have a choice how I choose to implement it
thankfully.

What is there in the way of consoles from your suppliers, then?

About the only mid-range console I can think of that is left is the Crest.

The Midas Venice sounds great, but it falls apart pretty quickly if you
take it on the road; the pots go intermittent and the eq sections start
oscillating, and it's got the same unrepairable faders all the other
cheap crap has. Likewise the mid-priced Allen and Heaths (although they
don't oscillate).

Quolle makes a nice little console but you can't actually get
it in the US.

D&R is gone, the DDA/EV/Klark-Technik Interface is gone, all that
midrange stuff has disappeared. The Yamaha line has split in the middle.
PR&E is gone. ATI went upscale.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[PStamler]

I read an interview with Marc Aubort yesterday where he mentioned that
he now does his recordings with a Mackie mixer, for reasons of weight.
I was a bit surprised.

Peace,
Paul

[Richard Webb[_3_]]

On Fri 2011-Sep-16 20:39, Scott Dorsey writes:
TCO can be way, way cheaper on the API.
One lost session with a full orchestra sitting around cooling their heels
while you try and track down a temporary replacement will pay for a new
API a couple times over.

Well if you are using a full orchestra and a cheap Behringer (especially
with no backup to hand) you are too stupid to be in business in the first
place!

There are lots of them out there.

YEs there are, your comment below speaks volumes as to why.

There's a guy using a Mackie 1604 for symphonic work for broadcast
in my area.

I'm not at all surprised.

The consumer grade equipment has begun to permeate the entire
industry.

YEs it has, and some of us do have a problem with that.

Not saying API don't have their place, just that TCO is *not* one of the
benefits.

The problem is that there aren't many possibilities between the two
extremes in terms of available equipment. The cheap consumer gear
has driven most of the mid-range equipment out of the market, so
what you have is the very cheap and the very expensive and little
in-between today.

That's just my complaint. At one time one could find good
midrange gear with reasonably reliability that one didn't
expect to become landfill fodder inside a year. The only
advantage for that guy doing orchestra work with his 1604 is that he can bring a spare along to the gig.

yEt before Katrina I had a 1202 vlz in a rack with some
power amps, some 31 band eq units, and had a quick and dirty live sound rig in a rack that served me quite well for one
man band gigs, or the sound job for the special event at the church. I'll spend the price of a 1202 or equivalent as an
equivalent to the bic lighter, but I won't spend $2k for a
bic lighter.

I can understand why for the hire company having half a
dozen bic lighter consoles might be an effective business
model, but for folks like me it just doesn't make good
business sense.

Regards,
Richard
--
| Remove .my.foot for email
| via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet-Internet Gateway Site
| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.

[hank alrich]

PStamler wrote:

I read an interview with Marc Aubort yesterday where he mentioned that
he now does his recordings with a Mackie mixer, for reasons of weight.
I was a bit surprised.

Bob Olhsson has written about attending a location classical recording
session in Nashville where a Mackie Onyx was used for the console,
including the preamps. He said he was favorably impressed with the
sound.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri