[joe h]

Hello,

Right now I have a Shure SM7B going into a Focusrite ISA 430. The
output seems kind of low on the SM7B. It's causing me to coax pretty
high amounts of gain from the various stages of the channel strip,
which is causing some background standing noise in the ISA 430. The
SM7B is also susceptible to hand-held noise. I noticed the lowest LED
input meter gets stronger by about a 1/2 of an LED light when I pick
the mic up compared to having it rest on the table vertically,
indicating an increase in the noise floor. I know the SM7B is
supposed to be a stand-mounted mic, but I really want a hand held
solution.

The expander on the 430 is great. It works very well and totally
cleans up the background noise when there is no programmatic
material. But I can't help but notice the background noise that is
there when I take the expander out. It's not a pro level of surface
noise. It's too much. If I didn't need all the gadgets, I'd go with
something like a Millennia HV-3B.

So now I'm more interested in hotter output, handheld mics than
whatever the SM7B appears to output.
I could almost talk myself into hand-holding a TLM-103, because that
thing outputs an amazing 23mv/PA.

In more practical terms, I'm thinking maybe a Neumann KMS-104 or a
neodymium dynamic. I'm not sure what the good high-output handhelds
are these days. Any ideas?

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

joe h wrote:

Hello,

Right now I have a Shure SM7B going into a Focusrite ISA 430. The
output seems kind of low on the SM7B.

This is no secret in its documentation, it is spec'd to require 60 dB gain
to get average speech to ""0 dBm turf" and an example preamp is suggested.

It's causing me to coax pretty
high amounts of gain from the various stages of the channel strip,
which is causing some background standing noise in the ISA 430.

Can't comment, don't know the ISA 430.

The SM7B is also susceptible to hand-held noise.

It is taking it outside suggested use

I noticed the lowest LED
input meter gets stronger by about a 1/2 of an LED light when I pick
the mic up compared to having it rest on the table vertically,
indicating an increase in the noise floor.

For a guess: pulse noise.

I know the SM7B is
supposed to be a stand-mounted mic, but I really want a hand held
solution.

Wrong mic or build a handle for it.

The expander on the 430 is great. It works very well and totally
cleans up the background noise when there is no programmatic
material. But I can't help but notice the background noise that is
there when I take the expander out.

Wrong preamp then, not that you necessarily need a costly preamp.

It's not a pro level of surface
noise. It's too much. If I didn't need all the gadgets, I'd go with
something like a Millennia HV-3B.

It is OK to use another preamp and a line input instead of using the mic pre
in the mixer/channel strip.

So now I'm more interested in hotter output, handheld mics than
whatever the SM7B appears to output.
I could almost talk myself into hand-holding a TLM-103, because that
thing outputs an amazing 23mv/PA.

Sound quality, including "useful colouration" is a good parameter, output
voltage in itself isn't.

In more practical terms, I'm thinking maybe a Neumann KMS-104 or a
neodymium dynamic. I'm not sure what the good high-output handhelds
are these days. Any ideas?

A couple of guys here like the Heil PR40 and there doesn't seem to be anyone
disliking the RE20, but that one also is for stand mounted use. But if you
got the SM7B for its sound, then you may want to get it to work right.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[mcp6453[_2_]]

On 9/25/2011 10:10 PM, Peter Larsen wrote:
joe h wrote:

Hello,

Right now I have a Shure SM7B going into a Focusrite ISA 430. The
output seems kind of low on the SM7B.

This is no secret in its documentation, it is spec'd to require 60 dB gain
to get average speech to ""0 dBm turf" and an example preamp is suggested.

It's causing me to coax pretty
high amounts of gain from the various stages of the channel strip,
which is causing some background standing noise in the ISA 430.

Can't comment, don't know the ISA 430.

The SM7B is also susceptible to hand-held noise.

It is taking it outside suggested use

I noticed the lowest LED
input meter gets stronger by about a 1/2 of an LED light when I pick
the mic up compared to having it rest on the table vertically,
indicating an increase in the noise floor.

For a guess: pulse noise.

I know the SM7B is
supposed to be a stand-mounted mic, but I really want a hand held
solution.

Wrong mic or build a handle for it.

The expander on the 430 is great. It works very well and totally
cleans up the background noise when there is no programmatic
material. But I can't help but notice the background noise that is
there when I take the expander out.

Wrong preamp then, not that you necessarily need a costly preamp.

It's not a pro level of surface
noise. It's too much. If I didn't need all the gadgets, I'd go with
something like a Millennia HV-3B.

It is OK to use another preamp and a line input instead of using the mic pre
in the mixer/channel strip.

So now I'm more interested in hotter output, handheld mics than
whatever the SM7B appears to output.
I could almost talk myself into hand-holding a TLM-103, because that
thing outputs an amazing 23mv/PA.

Sound quality, including "useful colouration" is a good parameter, output
voltage in itself isn't.

In more practical terms, I'm thinking maybe a Neumann KMS-104 or a
neodymium dynamic. I'm not sure what the good high-output handhelds
are these days. Any ideas?

A couple of guys here like the Heil PR40 and there doesn't seem to be anyone
disliking the RE20, but that one also is for stand mounted use. But if you
got the SM7B for its sound, then you may want to get it to work right.

If you can, try a Heil PR22. A friend has one, and it does a great job with
handling noise. It's not the same sound as a PR40, but it's comparable in many
ways to the SM7B.

If you really have to have a higher output dynamic mic, take a look at the BLUE
enCORE 200. It's a phantom-powered dynamic. Sound wise, it's probably in the
SM58 class. (I've tried to get a demo, but I have not been successful. A friend
has a 100, and that's what he reports.)

[joe h]

Thanks for all the insights.

[PStamler]

On Sep 25, 9:10*pm, "Peter Larsen" wrote:

A couple of guys here like the Heil PR40 and there doesn't seem to be anyone
disliking the RE20, but that one also is for stand mounted use. But if you
got the SM7B for its sound, then you may want to get it to work right.

The RE20, like the SM7B, ls a relatively low-output mic.

You want something which actually sounds good, and is optimized for
hand-held vocal work? Try a Shure KSM9. It'll cost you; it's worth it.

Here's a stupid question, though: Are you sure the noise when you turn
up the preamp is actually electronic noise coming from the preamp? It
could be room noise, including infrasonic junk. Try this: make an XLR
dummy plug with a 150 ohm metal film resistor soldered between pins 2
and 3 -- nothing else. Set up the mic-and-preamp combination the way
you're using it now, with the gain way up and the noise appearing.
Then, without changing anything on the preamp, unplug the mic and plug
in the dummy plug. Is the noise still there? It really is preamp
noise, like you're assuming. Is the noise gone? Then it's probably
room noise, and another microphone probably won't get rid of it.

Peace,
Paul

[PStamler]

Oh and...

The ISA 430 is specified at -128dBu equivalent input noise when set to
+60dB of gain with a 150 ohm source impedance. That's actually very
quiet performance. Again, I suggest the noise you're seeing is much
more likely to be from the room.

Can you record a couple of seconds of noise and post the result
someplace?

Peace,
Paul

[Phil W[_3_]]

joe h:

I know the SM7B is supposed to be a stand-mounted mic,
but I really want a hand held solution.

Why hand-held? Do you need to walk around with the mic in your hand? Or is
it rather lack of convenience with a stand-mounted mike?

In more practical terms, I'm thinking maybe a Neumann KMS-104 or a
neodymium dynamic. I'm not sure what the good high-output handhelds
are these days. Any ideas?

Look at vocal mics for stage use. There are probably more dynamic, than
condenser ones, but you can find both and all serious models have a good
"handling noise" isolation/dampening. Does it have to be a condenser by any
means?

[Scott Dorsey]

joe h wrote:
Right now I have a Shure SM7B going into a Focusrite ISA 430. The
output seems kind of low on the SM7B. It's causing me to coax pretty
high amounts of gain from the various stages of the channel strip,
which is causing some background standing noise in the ISA 430.

What kind of noise? Are you sure it's the preamp?
How do you have the switches on the SM7 set?

The
SM7B is also susceptible to hand-held noise. I noticed the lowest LED
input meter gets stronger by about a 1/2 of an LED light when I pick
the mic up compared to having it rest on the table vertically,
indicating an increase in the noise floor. I know the SM7B is
supposed to be a stand-mounted mic, but I really want a hand held
solution.

You really can't do this sort of thing handheld very well. How will you
turn the pages on the copy? I think you will find all of the standard VO
mikes are going to have severe handling noise issues if you try and handhold
them.

If you absolutely HAVE to handhold, you could try an EV RE-50. This is a
635A omni with some additional shockmounting, and the fact that it has
absolutely zero low end response also reduces the handling noise as well.
However, it won't sound very big (although because it's an omni you can
be careless about positioning, which is also important in a handheld).

The expander on the 430 is great. It works very well and totally
cleans up the background noise when there is no programmatic
material. But I can't help but notice the background noise that is
there when I take the expander out. It's not a pro level of surface
noise. It's too much. If I didn't need all the gadgets, I'd go with
something like a Millennia HV-3B.

Why do you need all th gadgets anyway? And where is the noise coming from?
Is it hiss from the preamp or is it actually room noise?

So now I'm more interested in hotter output, handheld mics than
whatever the SM7B appears to output.
I could almost talk myself into hand-holding a TLM-103, because that
thing outputs an amazing 23mv/PA.

And you'll find the handling noise in the TLM-103 is as bad or worse than
the SM-7. These mikes are not designed for handholding because people in
the studio just don't do that.

In more practical terms, I'm thinking maybe a Neumann KMS-104 or a
neodymium dynamic. I'm not sure what the good high-output handhelds
are these days. Any ideas?

Most of the high grade handheld mikes are designed to have very narrow
patterns, which is not what you want for most of this work. You could
try the Neumann and see....
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[joe h]

That's in interesting idea.

But unless I'm misunderstanding something (which is entirely
possible), I think I have already "one-upped" your idea:

I completely unplug the mic/xlr cable from the preamp, and the surface
level noise is still there. Granted, the noise increase by a 1/2 LED
on the meter, but there is still a steady one-LED background noise on
the LED meter (one out of 11). If I engage the expander/gate, it goes
away in steady (for obvious reasons). But if I disengage the expander/
gate the 1 LED is always lit based on the gain amounts required to get
a -4/-2db signal from the SM7B into the digital card LED ladder based
on my normal speaking voice volumes.

I simply think this box has so many processing blocks to it that it
doesn't like to have to provide a lot of super-clean straight wire
with gain. It's so cool in so many ways, but there's nothing cool
about too much hash in the noise floor. If I don't engage the
expander, the standing noise floor is "beyond obvious" when there is
no spoken word to mask the circumstance.

I'm not going to go so far as to say the box is broken. It seems like
it would be killer for drum gating and getting monster sounds out of
things. But this low output SM7B is exposing a flaw I had not
anticipated. Let's just say Millennia Media doesn't have to worry
about this box overtaking the HV3 series in the clean gain category!

[joe h]

Great points, Mr. Dorsey.

I'm not enthralled by endless processing. In fact, I love the
Millennia HV3. It's more like I need the end result to have a set-and-
forget straight from capture to finished rendering. I'm thinking
something that splits the audio bandwidth into two or more bands. I'm
trying to avoid things rather than seek things out. Here's what I am
trying to avoid:
1) the levels being too jumpy (want it compressed without squashed)
2) sibilance (my singing voice is fine, but my speaking voice has too
much ssss and ch)
3) digital overs (need a no-worry set and forget setup)
4) frequency build ups (don't want boomy frequencies. currently the
Focusrite seems to add a lot of bass build up when my voice is on an
mmm or an nnn)


I'm looking for substantial amounts of sameness. The levels stay the
same from word to word. The high frequency/sibilance never gets too
much or too little. The frequency spectrum doesn't have ranges of
frequency that suddenly jump out depending upon the word being spoken.


Miscellaneous:
I really don't think its the room. I've had other gear in here with
no problems.
I might have not communicated well. I'm not reading from a script.
I'm talking extemporaneously in a podcast setting. I'm using the term
"narration" to indicate a low-to-mid level spoken word setting, rather
than a singing setting which would typically have higher voice sound
output levels (at least for me it would).
I've set the SM7B switches to factory default (bass rolloff and
presence both engaged) as well as flat on both, and also bass at flat
and presence boost on.
I'm pretty good at handholding studio condenser mics. It's not that
practical because you want to use a windscreen to protect the
expensive capsule element. But it's not that hard really. I've
definitely done things where I hold the mic in one hand, and the pop
filter in the other. Once your hand is holding the mic, unless you
tap it for some strange reason, it's fine. Like for example, if I was
shooting out two mics for a particular circumstance, it's easy to do a
quick take with each without having to birdcage both of them on and
off the stand.

[PStamler]

On Sep 26, 9:45*pm, joe h wrote:
Great points, Mr. Dorsey.

I'm not enthralled by endless processing. *In fact, I love the
Millennia HV3. *It's more like I need the end result to have a set-and-
forget straight from capture to finished rendering. *I'm thinking
something that splits the audio bandwidth into two or more bands. *I'm
trying to avoid things rather than seek things out. *Here's what I am
trying to avoid:
1) the levels being too jumpy (want it compressed without squashed)
2) sibilance (my singing voice is fine, but my speaking voice has too
much ssss and ch)
3) digital overs (need a no-worry set and forget setup)
4) frequency build ups (don't want boomy frequencies. currently the
Focusrite seems to add a lot of bass build up when my voice is on an
mmm or an nnn)

I'm looking for substantial amounts of sameness. *The levels stay the
same from word to word. *The high frequency/sibilance never gets too
much or too little. *The frequency spectrum doesn't have ranges of
frequency that suddenly jump out depending upon the word being spoken.

Miscellaneous:
I really don't think its the room. *I've had other gear in here with
no problems.
I might have not communicated well. *I'm not reading from a script.
I'm talking extemporaneously in a podcast setting. *I'm using the term
"narration" to indicate a low-to-mid level spoken word setting, rather
than a singing setting which would typically have higher voice sound
output levels (at least for me it would).
I've set the SM7B switches to factory default (bass rolloff and
presence both engaged) as well as flat on both, and also bass at flat
and presence boost on.

If you're having sibilance problems, turning on the presence boost is
not a good idea.

Go read what the guy in the other thread says about proximity effect.
The SM7B has loads of it (unlike, say, the E-V RE20).

Post a couple-second clip of the noise you're getting someplace so we
can see what it looks like.

Peace,
Paul

[Steve King]

"joe h" wrote in message
...
Great points, Mr. Dorsey.

I'm not enthralled by endless processing. In fact, I love the
Millennia HV3. It's more like I need the end result to have a set-and-
forget straight from capture to finished rendering. I'm thinking
something that splits the audio bandwidth into two or more bands. I'm
trying to avoid things rather than seek things out. Here's what I am
trying to avoid:
1) the levels being too jumpy (want it compressed without squashed)
2) sibilance (my singing voice is fine, but my speaking voice has too
much ssss and ch)

I respond to your "too much ssss...." description above. You can train
yourself to minimize that problem without too much effort.
One session with a speech therapist might do it, show you what's happening
and how to modify it as you wish. Then a bit of practice. I know from
experience.

3) digital overs (need a no-worry set and forget setup)
4) frequency build ups (don't want boomy frequencies. currently the
Focusrite seems to add a lot of bass build up when my voice is on an
mmm or an nnn)

Are you sure its the Focusrite? Sounds like the pre may just be delivering
what it gets from your voice and what the mic, including your mic technique,
is giving it for better or for ill. You can get more level out of an SM7B
by really close micing it. I mean lips on the foam almost.
Its particular brand of proximity bass boost is what makes the
mic appealing to many people. However, some voices are not helped
by the microphone. The bass boost and mid-range presence setting on the mic
can be downright troublesome for some voices. I like the mic for me.
I've always felt there was a sweet spot of distance and off axis for each
voice. Of course, that also means its not the mic to use if the performer
moves around a lot.

I'm looking for substantial amounts of sameness. The levels stay the
same from word to word. The high frequency/sibilance never gets too
much or too little. The frequency spectrum doesn't have ranges of
frequency that suddenly jump out depending upon the word being spoken.

Where you hear that happening now, is it just an amplitude thing that can be
controlled with a little compression?

Miscellaneous:
I really don't think its the room. I've had other gear in here with
no problems.
I might have not communicated well. I'm not reading from a script.
I'm talking extemporaneously in a podcast setting. I'm using the term
"narration" to indicate a low-to-mid level spoken word setting, rather
than a singing setting which would typically have higher voice sound
output levels (at least for me it would).
I've set the SM7B switches to factory default (bass rolloff and
presence both engaged) as well as flat on both, and also bass at flat
and presence boost on.
I'm pretty good at handholding studio condenser mics. It's not that
practical because you want to use a windscreen to protect the
expensive capsule element. But it's not that hard really. I've
definitely done things where I hold the mic in one hand, and the pop
filter in the other. Once your hand is holding the mic, unless you
tap it for some strange reason, it's fine. Like for example, if I was
shooting out two mics for a particular circumstance, it's easy to do a
quick take with each without having to birdcage both of them on and
off the stand.

I don't know your equipment, but I found that I couldn't use an SM7
into a Mackie 1202 VLZ. Had to crank up the trims too much,
right to the edge of that horrible noise shelf that hammers in between
3 and 4 o'clock. ;-)

Steve King

[PStamler]

On Sep 26, 9:27*pm, joe h wrote:
That's in interesting idea.

But unless I'm misunderstanding something (which is entirely
possible), I think I have already "one-upped" your idea:

I completely unplug the mic/xlr cable from the preamp, and the surface
level noise is still there. *Granted, the noise increase by a 1/2 LED
on the meter, but there is still a steady one-LED background noise on
the LED meter (one out of 11). *

Not at all the same thing, and not an appropriate test. With the cable
unplugged the preamp is seeing a source impedance of 13.6k (the total
of the two phantom-power resistors -- I think this is a transformer-
coupled circuit?). Since mic preamp noise performance is almost always
a function of the source impedance, you'll get significantly higher
noise with nothing plugged into the input than you would with an
appropriate impedance like 150 ohms.

Try the experiment again with the 150 ohm dummy plug.

Peace,
Paul

[Ty Ford]

On Sun, 25 Sep 2011 21:16:30 -0400, joe h wrote
(in article
):

Hello,

Right now I have a Shure SM7B going into a Focusrite ISA 430. The
output seems kind of low on the SM7B. It's causing me to coax pretty
high amounts of gain from the various stages of the channel strip,
which is causing some background standing noise in the ISA 430. The
SM7B is also susceptible to hand-held noise.

You're hand holding an SM7B to record?

You should be getting OK level from 2-3 inches away from the SM7B. It's an US
Radio industry standard mic.

Regards,

Ty Ford



--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA

[joe h]

That's interesting. I like private lessons.

When I sing it's not a problem. Because the consonant levels stay
about the same as speaking, but the tonal part of my voice is way
louder when I sing (my best operating loudness is somewhere between
Sam Cooke and Stevie Wonder). So the sibilance isn't a problem when I
sing, because it's proportionally less.

But close micing me speaking in my normal, relatively quiet speaking
voice? Yeah...um, about those speech lessons!

[joe h]

Thanks for the clarification. Definitely a massive transformer
inside. And a dizzying array of carefully laid out circuit components
on two PCB boards (the smaller one floats above the larger one, which
seems to occupy the entire floor of the chassis. A lot of rectangular
IC's. And a smaller Lundahl component in there as well. And the
capacitors looked pretty big. And a whole lot of bundled wires with
plastic connectors going from one place to another. I don't even know
how anybody can understand all of that stuff! It's pretty hectic in
there. It makes you proud to be a human being. Some people are just
ridiculously smart.

[PStamler]

On Sep 27, 5:49*pm, joe h wrote:
Thanks for the clarification. *Definitely a massive transformer
inside. *And a dizzying array of carefully laid out circuit components
on two PCB boards (the smaller one floats above the larger one, which
seems to occupy the entire floor of the chassis. *A lot of rectangular
IC's. *And a smaller Lundahl component in there as well. *And the
capacitors looked pretty big. *And a whole lot of bundled wires with
plastic connectors going from one place to another. *I don't even know
how anybody can understand all of that stuff! *It's pretty hectic in
there. *It makes you proud to be a human being. *Some people are just
ridiculously smart.

It's not really all that hard. You just learn a few components do
(resistors, capacitors, transformers, opamps, tubes, transistors, FETs
and a couple more), learn a few basic principles (Ohm's Law, how
voltage dividers work, how 1st order filters work, a couple more) and
you learn how to follow the signal from one end of the circuit to
another. It's a lot easier than some stuff I've muddled around with,
like organic chemistry.

Peace,
Paul

[Ty Ford]

On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 18:49:32 -0400, joe h wrote
(in article
):

Thanks for the clarification. Definitely a massive transformer
inside. And a dizzying array of carefully laid out circuit components
on two PCB boards (the smaller one floats above the larger one, which
seems to occupy the entire floor of the chassis. A lot of rectangular
IC's. And a smaller Lundahl component in there as well. And the
capacitors looked pretty big. And a whole lot of bundled wires with
plastic connectors going from one place to another. I don't even know
how anybody can understand all of that stuff! It's pretty hectic in
there. It makes you proud to be a human being. Some people are just
ridiculously smart.


Um, here's me...

http://web.mac.com/tyreeford/Site/Learn_Voiceover.html

Regards,

Ty Ford




--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

joe h wrote:

That's interesting. I like private lessons.

When I sing it's not a problem. Because the consonant levels stay
about the same as speaking, but the tonal part of my voice is way
louder when I sing (my best operating loudness is somewhere between
Sam Cooke and Stevie Wonder). So the sibilance isn't a problem when I
sing, because it's proportionally less.

But close micing me speaking in my normal, relatively quiet speaking
voice? Yeah...um, about those speech lessons!

Don't speak, speak up. Go ""where you are when singing"", but speak up
instead so that you turn your vox formants on and project so that your voice
"carries". I didn't say "sing unsung", I said speak up!

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Richard Webb[_3_]]

On Wed 2011-Sep-28 12:26, Peter Larsen writes:

" Don't speak, speak up. Go ""where you are when singing"", but speak
" up instead so that you turn your vox formants on and project so
" that your voice "carries". I didn't say "sing unsung", I said speak
" up!

PEter's right on this one JOe. YOu shouldn't have to eat
the mic if you're doing it right. LIsten to voice talent,
including your local announcers. They speak up, which
enables you to get the microphone a reasonable distance away and still capture adequate level. Project as you would when singing.

Regards,
Richard
.... Remote audio in the southland: See www.gatasound.com
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