Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
#161
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
Moving-coil cartridges
On Fri, 10 Jul 2009 08:25:38 -0700, Stephen McElroy wrote
(in article ): In article , Sonnova wrote: That's intersting, becase according to 'Perfecting Sound Forever', Stokowski was all about radically processing the recorded sound to make it 'better' than live. Yeah, and Stokowski (real name Leo Stokes. Father was a coal miner from Wales) was a pretentious loon. He insisted that RCA Victor let him adjust the levels on his Philadelphia Orchestra recording sessions. Of course, RCA wasn't about to let him do that, so they gave him a VU meter with a knob attached to it. All the knob did was vary the level of the meter, nothing else. Stokowski would conduct and twiddle the knob to his heart's content. On playback. he would beam and say to the engineers: "See this is perfect, this is how it SHOULD be done. Why can't you overpaid recording engineers do that?" The "overpaid recording engineers" would smile at each other and wink. OTOH, Stokowski WAS responsible for talking Musicians Union maven James C, Patrillo out of doubling the recording fees for stereophonic recording sessions (two channels? Two recordings)! Another Stokowski story that I recall was that when he was the resident conductor of the Dallas Symphony in the late 1960's, he decided to marry the local Dallas Opera diva, a soprano with a very plain name Jane Smith or some such (I don't remember her name). Before he would marry her, he made her LEGALLY change her name to Countess Vlotovsky or some such pretentious nonsense. He as a character. His pretensions to technical audio knowledge are legendary, but he did promote technical innovation in both the production and playback of recorded music. The public trusted him as a famous "authority" and so he did a lot of good for the business and the hobby. He wasn't a bad conductor either - as long as he didn't try to "re-arrange" the works of the masters (which unfortunately, he did all too often). His recording of the Virgil Thompson Suites from "The River" and "The PLow That Broke The Plains" are THE best recordings of those works and the only recording of them formally acknowledged by the composer. From wiki: After Stokowski's death, Tom Burnam writes, the "concatenization of canards" that had arisen around him was revived‹that his name and accent were phony; that his musical education was deficient; that his musicians did not respect him; that he cared about nobody but himself. Burnam suggests that there was a dark, hidden reason for these rumors. Stokowski deplored the segregation of symphony orchestras in which women and minorities were excluded, and, so Burnam claims, the bigots got revenge by slandering Stokowski. Well, many people believed these stories, including some famous musicologists such as Nicolas Slonimsky, which is where I got the stories about his "real name" and his requiring his fiance to change her name. -- http://www.stokowski.org/Leopold%20S...0Biography.htm This page includes an image of his birth certificate. Stokowski's first wife, Olga Samaroff, was born Lucy Mary Olga Agnes Hickenlooper but performed under her stage name for years before their marriage. Touching up scores was standard practice for the early twentieth century. Please provide an example of a "re-arrangement" that showed he was a "bad conductor." Sorry, I never stated nor even implicated that I thought he was a bad conductor. He wasn't. Like I said yesterday, his recording, on Vanguard, of the two Virgil Thompson pieces is considered definitive. But I don't particularly care for his "arrangements" of Beethoven's 9th or Bach's D minor Cantata and Fugue. That doesn't mean that his recordings of these arrangements are in any way deficient or sloppy. But when I'm following the score of a Beethoven symphony while listening to it and find that the conductor has done such things as change the order of certain passages or skipped repeats altogether, why, I tend to get a little testy. 8^) |
#162
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
Moving-coil cartridges
On Jul 10, 8:26*am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Scott" wrote in message Neither the LPs I compared nor any of the analysis that I did are currently in my possession What can you tell us from memory? Not much. What specific titles did you compare? What specific masterings and pressings were they? Too numerous to remember, but they included both classical and rock titles. Such is the nature of memory. It is very unreliable. So we have the admitted extreme unreliability of your distant memory coupled wih the unreliability of your lack of use of bias controls. That makes your assertions about European vinyl v. U.S. vinyl pretty useless as any indicator. |
#163
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
Moving-coil cartridges
In article ,
Sonnova wrote: On Fri, 10 Jul 2009 08:25:38 -0700, Stephen McElroy wrote (in article ): In article , Sonnova wrote: That's intersting, becase according to 'Perfecting Sound Forever', Stokowski was all about radically processing the recorded sound to make it 'better' than live. Yeah, and Stokowski (real name Leo Stokes. Father was a coal miner from Wales) was a pretentious loon. He insisted that RCA Victor let him adjust the levels on his Philadelphia Orchestra recording sessions. Of course, RCA wasn't about to let him do that, so they gave him a VU meter with a knob attached to it. All the knob did was vary the level of the meter, nothing else. Stokowski would conduct and twiddle the knob to his heart's content. On playback. he would beam and say to the engineers: "See this is perfect, this is how it SHOULD be done. Why can't you overpaid recording engineers do that?" The "overpaid recording engineers" would smile at each other and wink. OTOH, Stokowski WAS responsible for talking Musicians Union maven James C, Patrillo out of doubling the recording fees for stereophonic recording sessions (two channels? Two recordings)! Another Stokowski story that I recall was that when he was the resident conductor of the Dallas Symphony in the late 1960's, he decided to marry the local Dallas Opera diva, a soprano with a very plain name Jane Smith or some such (I don't remember her name). Before he would marry her, he made her LEGALLY change her name to Countess Vlotovsky or some such pretentious nonsense. He as a character. His pretensions to technical audio knowledge are legendary, but he did promote technical innovation in both the production and playback of recorded music. The public trusted him as a famous "authority" and so he did a lot of good for the business and the hobby. He wasn't a bad conductor either - as long as he didn't try to "re-arrange" the works of the masters (which unfortunately, he did all too often). His recording of the Virgil Thompson Suites from "The River" and "The PLow That Broke The Plains" are THE best recordings of those works and the only recording of them formally acknowledged by the composer. From wiki: After Stokowski's death, Tom Burnam writes, the "concatenization of canards" that had arisen around him was revived‹that his name and accent were phony; that his musical education was deficient; that his musicians did not respect him; that he cared about nobody but himself. Burnam suggests that there was a dark, hidden reason for these rumors. Stokowski deplored the segregation of symphony orchestras in which women and minorities were excluded, and, so Burnam claims, the bigots got revenge by slandering Stokowski. Well, many people believed these stories, including some famous musicologists such as Nicolas Slonimsky, which is where I got the stories about his "real name" and his requiring his fiance to change her name. -- http://www.stokowski.org/Leopold%20S...0Biography.htm This page includes an image of his birth certificate. Stokowski's first wife, Olga Samaroff, was born Lucy Mary Olga Agnes Hickenlooper but performed under her stage name for years before their marriage. Touching up scores was standard practice for the early twentieth century. Please provide an example of a "re-arrangement" that showed he was a "bad conductor." Sorry, I never stated nor even implicated that I thought he was a bad conductor. He wasn't. Like I said yesterday, his recording, on Vanguard, of the two Virgil Thompson pieces is considered definitive. But I don't particularly care for his "arrangements" of Beethoven's 9th or Bach's D minor Cantata and Fugue. That doesn't mean that his recordings of these arrangements are in any way deficient or sloppy. But when I'm following the score of a Beethoven symphony while listening to it and find that the conductor has done such things as change the order of certain passages or skipped repeats altogether, why, I tend to get a little testy. 8^) No worries. I jumped to conclusions when you said he wasn't a bad conductor except when he was rearranging works. If it sets your mind at rest, the famous Toccata and Fugue probably isn't by Bach, and Stokie was in good company touching up Beethoven. I'm surprised Sloniminsky retold that "Stokes" canard. I remember reading, I believe, an introduction to the Cyclopedia in which he wrote he believed nothing unless he had seen the original documentation. Stephen |
#164
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
Moving-coil cartridges
On Jul 11, 12:01*am, Scott wrote:
On Jul 10, 8:26*am, "Arny Krueger" wrote: Too numerous to remember, but they included both classical and rock titles. Such is the nature of memory. It is very unreliable. Yeah, just like one's memory of the sound of things. It makes judgements and comparisons of non- proximal presentations of aural stimuli very unreliable without the use of careful controls to ameliorate such effects. That memory sword has a double edge, it seems. |
#165
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
Moving-coil cartridges
Sonnova wrote:
Vlotovsky or some such pretentious nonsense. He as a character. His pretensions to technical audio knowledge are legendary, but he did promote technical innovation in both the production and playback of recorded music. The public trusted him as a famous "authority" and so he did a lot of good for the business and the hobby. He wasn't a bad conductor either - as long as he didn't try to "re-arrange" the works of the masters (which unfortunately, he did all too often). His recording of the Virgil Thompson Suites from "The River" and "The PLow That Broke The Plains" are THE best recordings of those works and the only recording of them formally acknowledged by the composer. His orchestral arrangements/recordings of JS Bach's Toccata & Fugue in D minor, and Debussy's 'Engulfed Cathedral' are guilty pleasures of mine. -- -S We have it in our power to begin the world over again - Thomas Paine |
#166
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
Moving-coil cartridges
On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 21:36:57 -0700, Steven Sullivan wrote
(in article ): Sonnova wrote: Vlotovsky or some such pretentious nonsense. He as a character. His pretensions to technical audio knowledge are legendary, but he did promote technical innovation in both the production and playback of recorded music. The public trusted him as a famous "authority" and so he did a lot of good for the business and the hobby. He wasn't a bad conductor either - as long as he didn't try to "re-arrange" the works of the masters (which unfortunately, he did all too often). His recording of the Virgil Thompson Suites from "The River" and "The PLow That Broke The Plains" are THE best recordings of those works and the only recording of them formally acknowledged by the composer. His orchestral arrangements/recordings of JS Bach's Toccata & Fugue in D minor, and Debussy's 'Engulfed Cathedral' are guilty pleasures of mine. I'll have to admit that I really like his arrangement of "the Engulfed Catherdral" as well. But the "Toccata and Fugue" and his messing with Beethoven are not to my taste. |
#167
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
Moving-coil cartridges
In article ,
Steven Sullivan wrote: His orchestral arrangements/recordings of JS Bach's Toccata & Fugue in D minor, and Debussy's 'Engulfed Cathedral' are guilty pleasures of mine. There's no doubt that "Stokie" was a fine musician, as well as a supreme egotist and control freak, even for conductors of his generation, which is REALLY going a ways! The question of his arrangements is always a popular subject when discussing his work. In my view (which is fairly common), there's nothing wrong with arranging the work of a master, as long as it is stated that it's an arrangement (or "edition"). With the Bach, he did so state. With others, he didn't, which is too bad. For example, when he first performed and composed some works by Percy Grainger, he didn't state that they were arrangements, which really shocked the composer, of course. After heated discussion, Grainger went along with LS's arrangements, but demanded that they were identified in program notes and liner notes that they were indeed arrangements. |
#168
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
Moving-coil cartridges
In article ,
Jenn wrote: In article , Steven Sullivan wrote: His orchestral arrangements/recordings of JS Bach's Toccata & Fugue in D minor, and Debussy's 'Engulfed Cathedral' are guilty pleasures of mine. There's no doubt that "Stokie" was a fine musician, as well as a supreme egotist and control freak, even for conductors of his generation, which is REALLY going a ways! The question of his arrangements is always a popular subject when discussing his work. In my view (which is fairly common), there's nothing wrong with arranging the work of a master, as long as it is stated that it's an arrangement (or "edition"). With the Bach, he did so state. With others, he didn't, which is too bad. For example, when he first performed and composed some works by Percy Grainger, he didn't state that they were arrangements, which really shocked the composer, of course. After heated discussion, Grainger went along with LS's arrangements, but demanded that they were identified in program notes and liner notes that they were indeed arrangements. It was also a time when Kreisler and others could compose pieces and attribute them to dead masters. My Stokie story is from the American Symphony: the celeste was under-pitch, earning the keyboardist Stokie's glare. Once more, in tune! The celeste's pitch is fixed and can't be adjusted quickly. The player's solution was to raise a shoulder as he played, 'raising' the pitch. Stephen |
#169
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
Moving-coil cartridges
On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 09:24:33 -0700, Jenn wrote
(in article ): In article , Steven Sullivan wrote: His orchestral arrangements/recordings of JS Bach's Toccata & Fugue in D minor, and Debussy's 'Engulfed Cathedral' are guilty pleasures of mine. There's no doubt that "Stokie" was a fine musician, as well as a supreme egotist and control freak, even for conductors of his generation, which is REALLY going a ways! The question of his arrangements is always a popular subject when discussing his work. In my view (which is fairly common), there's nothing wrong with arranging the work of a master, as long as it is stated that it's an arrangement (or "edition"). With the Bach, he did so state. With others, he didn't, which is too bad. For example, when he first performed and composed some works by Percy Grainger, he didn't state that they were arrangements, which really shocked the composer, of course. After heated discussion, Grainger went along with LS's arrangements, but demanded that they were identified in program notes and liner notes that they were indeed arrangements. I certainly have no problem with musicians "arranging" the works of the masters as long as you have no problem with me exercising my right to reject them. I prefer, in most cases, to hear the composer's intentions (to the extent possible in any performing art) as opposed to someone who chooses to second-guess the composer by actually changing what the composer wrote. Conductors have enough latitude with regard to tempi and dynamics to express their interpretations of a work without having to resort to actually physically changing them. Just my opinion, you understand. This subject is largely a matter of taste and I'm certainly not dogmatic about it. |
#170
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
Moving-coil cartridges
In article ,
Sonnova wrote: I certainly have no problem with musicians "arranging" the works of the masters as long as you have no problem with me exercising my right to reject them. I prefer, in most cases, to hear the composer's intentions (to the extent possible in any performing art) as opposed to someone who chooses to second-guess the composer by actually changing what the composer wrote. Conductors have enough latitude with regard to tempi and dynamics to express their interpretations of a work without having to resort to actually physically changing them. Just my opinion, you understand. This subject is largely a matter of taste and I'm certainly not dogmatic about it. I very much agree with you. I greatly prefer my Beethoven straight up, thanks! I'm just saying that arranging a composer's work is a legit activity, as long as the changes are stated up front. |
#171
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
Moving-coil cartridges
In article ,
Stephen McElroy wrote: My Stokie story is from the American Symphony: the celeste was under-pitch, earning the keyboardist Stokie's glare. Once more, in tune! The celeste's pitch is fixed and can't be adjusted quickly. The player's solution was to raise a shoulder as he played, 'raising' the pitch. Stephen lol This reminds me of an encounter with a well-known conductor back in the days when I was gigging as a trombonist more than I am today. The conductor had quite a jazz background as well as classical (he's American/British; you can probably guess who this is!) We were playing a "pops" concert at the Hollywood Bowl, and I had a little solo on a ballad. He's stopped and asked for more vibrato from me. I increased my lip/diaphram vibrato. He asked for more. I gave him more; a bigger vibrato than is normally used in any style. He said, "No, I want more, you know..." and made a hand motion like a jazz style slide vibrato. I did a slide vibrato. "Perfect!" he said. The truth is that my slide vibrato was exactly like my lip vibrato was originally! But now he could SEE it happening. It was a big joke in the brass section for months! |
#172
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
Moving-coil cartridges
In article ,
Jenn wrote: In article , Stephen McElroy wrote: My Stokie story is from the American Symphony: the celeste was under-pitch, earning the keyboardist Stokie's glare. Once more, in tune! The celeste's pitch is fixed and can't be adjusted quickly. The player's solution was to raise a shoulder as he played, 'raising' the pitch. Stephen lol This reminds me of an encounter with a well-known conductor back in the days when I was gigging as a trombonist more than I am today. The conductor had quite a jazz background as well as classical (he's American/British; you can probably guess who this is!) We were playing a "pops" concert at the Hollywood Bowl, and I had a little solo on a ballad. He's stopped and asked for more vibrato from me. I increased my lip/diaphram vibrato. He asked for more. I gave him more; a bigger vibrato than is normally used in any style. He said, "No, I want more, you know..." and made a hand motion like a jazz style slide vibrato. I did a slide vibrato. "Perfect!" he said. The truth is that my slide vibrato was exactly like my lip vibrato was originally! But now he could SEE it happening. It was a big joke in the brass section for months! He got what he wanted! :-) I heard an anecdote about the same man concerning recording session including chorus. The tenor section was anticipating an entrance but weren't corrected or helped by the maestro so one of them used a gesture to bring them in at the right time, earning him a note that there was only on conductor on the job. I can see both sides of that one, but, sheesh. Stephen |
#173
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
Moving-coil cartridges
"Jenn" wrote in message
In article , Stephen McElroy wrote: My Stokie story is from the American Symphony: the celeste was under-pitch, earning the keyboardist Stokie's glare. Once more, in tune! The celeste's pitch is fixed and can't be adjusted quickly. The player's solution was to raise a shoulder as he played, 'raising' the pitch. lol This reminds me of an encounter with a well-known conductor back in the days when I was gigging as a trombonist more than I am today. The conductor had quite a jazz background as well as classical (he's American/British; you can probably guess who this is!) We were playing a "pops" concert at the Hollywood Bowl, and I had a little solo on a ballad. He's stopped and asked for more vibrato from me. I increased my lip/diaphram vibrato. He asked for more. I gave him more; a bigger vibrato than is normally used in any style. He said, "No, I want more, you know..." and made a hand motion like a jazz style slide vibrato. I did a slide vibrato. "Perfect!" he said. The truth is that my slide vibrato was exactly like my lip vibrato was originally! But now he could SEE it happening. It was a big joke in the brass section for months! This sort of thing happens incessantly in the realms of audio production, except we do it to ourselves and we discover it ourselves. We have a lot less ego on the line, so there is a far wider instance of the guilty parties admitting their failings to themselves and even others. |
#174
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
|
|||
|
|||
Moving-coil cartridges
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote: "Jenn" wrote in message lol This reminds me of an encounter with a well-known conductor back in the days when I was gigging as a trombonist more than I am today. The conductor had quite a jazz background as well as classical (he's American/British; you can probably guess who this is!) We were playing a "pops" concert at the Hollywood Bowl, and I had a little solo on a ballad. He's stopped and asked for more vibrato from me. I increased my lip/diaphram vibrato. He asked for more. I gave him more; a bigger vibrato than is normally used in any style. He said, "No, I want more, you know..." and made a hand motion like a jazz style slide vibrato. I did a slide vibrato. "Perfect!" he said. The truth is that my slide vibrato was exactly like my lip vibrato was originally! But now he could SEE it happening. It was a big joke in the brass section for months! This sort of thing happens incessantly in the realms of audio production, except we do it to ourselves and we discover it ourselves. We have a lot less ego on the line, so there is a far wider instance of the guilty parties admitting their failings to themselves and even others. Oh, that is usually the case in music as well. We're very self critical and we tend to correct ourselves very quickly. For one thing, it's part of survival in the business. But this conductor isn't, in my opinion, a "real" conductor. Good conductors rely on ears only. This guy, whose name any classical music fan would recognize, came up in a different tradition in Hollywood and is known among players to, well, kind of make it up on the spot ;-) |
Reply |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
FA: Van den Hul MC2 Moving Coil Cartridge | Marketplace | |||
WTB:USED MOVING COIL PHONO CARTRIDGES< TONEARMS | Marketplace | |||
WTB:USED MOVING COIL CARTRIDGES< ASUSA PHONO PREAMP | Vacuum Tubes | |||
WTB:USED MOVING COIL CARTRIDGES, ASUSA PHONO PREAMP | Marketplace | |||
WTB:USED MOVING COIL CARTRIDGES, ASUSA PHONO PREAMP | Marketplace |