[west[_4_]]

There are several different types of noise to avoid and reduce, if we can,
in designing tube circuits, from what I been studying. We can discuss these
different types of noises in general but for now I would like to concentrate
on 1 type of noise, current noise, the kind that is generated in a plate
load resistor. I believe that this is especially important in preamp
circuits.
Some tubies advocate that boutique components are all fluff and a waste of
money and I think they have a point, to a degree. However, will a low noise
resistor make a difference in reducing plate current noise? If yes, then
they can make a difference.
The question is ...can we quantify this difference and how? I think it would
be cool to measure this noise and simultaneously hear what difference a low
noise boutique resistor can make. I may be off base with this idea, if so
chalk it up to an inexperienced but eager to learn Rodent. Thoughts? Thanks.

Cordially,
west

[Eeyore]

west wrote:

There are several different types of noise to avoid and reduce, if we can,
in designing tube circuits, from what I been studying. We can discuss these
different types of noises in general but for now I would like to concentrate
on 1 type of noise, current noise, the kind that is generated in a plate
load resistor. I believe that this is especially important in preamp
circuits.

Do you mean 'excess noise' ? It's specified as a function of voltage and is
measured in uV of noise per V of applied DC ( uV/V ).

It varies with the resistive material used and construction.

The best performers are bulk metal, metal oxide (virtually extinct now) and
metal film. I imagine that wirewound types would have low excess noise too but
their inductance means they're not suitable for these kinds of gain stages.

Carbon film types can have quite low excess noise too. It does vary hugely from
manufacturer to manufacturer though. I've come across 'cheap' metal film that
was noisier than well-made carbon film for example.

Carbon composition has *huge* excess noise.

Graham

[Andre Jute]

west wrote:

There are several different types of noise to avoid and reduce, if we can,
in designing tube circuits, from what I been studying. We can discuss these
different types of noises in general but for now I would like to concentrate
on 1 type of noise, current noise, the kind that is generated in a plate
load resistor. I believe that this is especially important in preamp
circuits.
Some tubies advocate that boutique components are all fluff and a waste of
money and I think they have a point, to a degree. However, will a low noise
resistor make a difference in reducing plate current noise? If yes, then
they can make a difference.
The question is ...can we quantify this difference and how? I think it would
be cool to measure this noise and simultaneously hear what difference a low
noise boutique resistor can make. I may be off base with this idea, if so
chalk it up to an inexperienced but eager to learn Rodent. Thoughts? Thanks.

Cordially,
west

Westley: I wrote a nice post and then scratched it when I discovered
that I already covered the subject 22 June last year. So I just repeat
that post, as being funnier and more pointed than my nice dull techie-
type post of today. My ire isn't directed at you. And even Stevenson
today made a useful post in reply to yours. Must be the weather!

The only piece of Really Useful Information (RUI) that isn't in the
old post from 22 June 2006 below is this: if you pass heavy current
through a resistor at high voltage, your concern may be justified.
This is of course not a preamp case, the only place in audiophoolery
where resistor noise is even marginally important in conservative
design. But I had such a case recently where 6SN7 were used as power
tubes, and the 6SL7 driver also being noise-critical; this was in a
design of an OTL to drive Stax electrostatic headphone. The solution
is not fancy resistors (you usually can't get them in the right
ratings) but to use standard oversized metal films in smaller values
in series, say 6x10K rather than one 62K; in fact I specified my usual
Kiwame ground silicon resistors, simply to be different. You can
always win some extra silence by just using higher ratings of
resistors than are striclty necessary, which is one reason I specify
Kiwame: their smallest is 2W.

So here is my old post, aimed at Poopie but containing all the
relevant information:

****

Elsewhere on RAT we have Graham "Poopie" Stevenson, writing as
"eyeore", telling off Vishay for imaginitve copy aimed at
audiophools,
and Prune telling us that Caddocks are good for "critical
applications
like feedback".

This is a tube audio conference. We don't do irrelevantly vanishing
noise levels. That is a pointless obsession of only the most
unimaginative engineers. We work with big chunks of voltage and
current. If you have a "critical application" in tubes that requires
a
resistor trimmed to within .01 of its life, you're obsessing about
the
machine and not the music. You want to get out more or, at least,
considering that you have probably arrived at this condition because
(unlike Al and me) you have zero people-skills, recover from solder
fumes by looking at pornography.

Even at the furthest reaches of tube tech, carbon film and metal film
resistors are all you need, as long as you buy the 2W ones that can
handle tube-type voltages. They're pretty too: my T113 Triple Threat
EL34 Trioded Push Pull amp is designed specifically to show tubes,
film
caps and common RS catalogue resistors on the board behind an open
mesh
grille, and very good it looks too if well built.

If on a tube conference you have to discuss Johnson noise, shot
noise,
flicker noise, and suchlike techie erotica to show how elevated your
audiophile pretension are, you've crawled so far up your own arsehole
that the firemen won't be able to pull you out; surgery will be
required to fold you right way out again.

Anyway, if you can't enjoy your music without being able to tell
someone how trick you are, the answer is Kiwame resistors. They're
silicon, they're difficult to get, they're so butt-ugly that they
can't
be fashionable so they're cheap for trick resistors, and they're
rated
at a hefty 2W and 5W for modest footprints. And they detract nothing
from the sound except a measurable amount of noise, though I wouldn't
want to pretend it is an instantly audible amount of noise except to
a
very experienced ear like mine having a good day.

One type of highly regarded audiophool resistor, the antique carbon
comps, more often than not are so wretchedly aged that they *add*
audible noise. Value-added euphonics, anyone?

Andre Jute
Our legislators managed to criminalize fox-hunting and smoking; when
they will get off their collective fat arse and criminalize negative
feedback? It is clearly consumed only by undesirables.

[Patrick Turner]

Andre Jute wrote:

west wrote:

There are several different types of noise to avoid and reduce, if we can,
in designing tube circuits, from what I been studying. We can discuss these
different types of noises in general but for now I would like to concentrate
on 1 type of noise, current noise, the kind that is generated in a plate
load resistor. I believe that this is especially important in preamp
circuits.
Some tubies advocate that boutique components are all fluff and a waste of
money and I think they have a point, to a degree. However, will a low noise
resistor make a difference in reducing plate current noise? If yes, then
they can make a difference.
The question is ...can we quantify this difference and how? I think it would
be cool to measure this noise and simultaneously hear what difference a low
noise boutique resistor can make. I may be off base with this idea, if so
chalk it up to an inexperienced but eager to learn Rodent. Thoughts? Thanks.

Cordially,
west

Westley: I wrote a nice post and then scratched it when I discovered
that I already covered the subject 22 June last year. So I just repeat
that post, as being funnier and more pointed than my nice dull techie-
type post of today. My ire isn't directed at you. And even Stevenson
today made a useful post in reply to yours. Must be the weather!

The only piece of Really Useful Information (RUI) that isn't in the
old post from 22 June 2006 below is this: if you pass heavy current
through a resistor at high voltage, your concern may be justified.
This is of course not a preamp case, the only place in audiophoolery
where resistor noise is even marginally important in conservative
design. But I had such a case recently where 6SN7 were used as power
tubes, and the 6SL7 driver also being noise-critical; this was in a
design of an OTL to drive Stax electrostatic headphone. The solution
is not fancy resistors (you usually can't get them in the right
ratings) but to use standard oversized metal films in smaller values
in series, say 6x10K rather than one 62K; in fact I specified my usual
Kiwame ground silicon resistors, simply to be different. You can
always win some extra silence by just using higher ratings of
resistors than are striclty necessary, which is one reason I specify
Kiwame: their smallest is 2W.

So here is my old post, aimed at Poopie but containing all the
relevant information:

****

Elsewhere on RAT we have Graham "Poopie" Stevenson, writing as
"eyeore", telling off Vishay for imaginitve copy aimed at
audiophools,
and Prune telling us that Caddocks are good for "critical
applications
like feedback".

This is a tube audio conference. We don't do irrelevantly vanishing
noise levels. That is a pointless obsession of only the most
unimaginative engineers. We work with big chunks of voltage and
current. If you have a "critical application" in tubes that requires
a
resistor trimmed to within .01 of its life, you're obsessing about
the
machine and not the music. You want to get out more or, at least,
considering that you have probably arrived at this condition because
(unlike Al and me) you have zero people-skills, recover from solder
fumes by looking at pornography.

Even at the furthest reaches of tube tech, carbon film and metal film
resistors are all you need, as long as you buy the 2W ones that can
handle tube-type voltages. They're pretty too: my T113 Triple Threat
EL34 Trioded Push Pull amp is designed specifically to show tubes,
film
caps and common RS catalogue resistors on the board behind an open
mesh
grille, and very good it looks too if well built.

If on a tube conference you have to discuss Johnson noise, shot
noise,
flicker noise, and suchlike techie erotica to show how elevated your
audiophile pretension are, you've crawled so far up your own arsehole
that the firemen won't be able to pull you out; surgery will be
required to fold you right way out again.

Anyway, if you can't enjoy your music without being able to tell
someone how trick you are, the answer is Kiwame resistors. They're
silicon, they're difficult to get, they're so butt-ugly that they
can't
be fashionable so they're cheap for trick resistors, and they're
rated
at a hefty 2W and 5W for modest footprints. And they detract nothing
from the sound except a measurable amount of noise, though I wouldn't
want to pretend it is an instantly audible amount of noise except to
a
very experienced ear like mine having a good day.

One type of highly regarded audiophool resistor, the antique carbon
comps, more often than not are so wretchedly aged that they *add*
audible noise. Value-added euphonics, anyone?

After all my experiments with resistances placed ahead of sensitive
preamps,
I found that the number of ohms was what determined noise, and it
mattered not one bit what kind of resistor
it was as long as the contacts to each end were mechanically tight.
Higher wattage resistances are quieter only because they run cooler,
because temperature
affects noise.
I got a box full of NOS 1935 made resistors. Primitive they are.
I've never used any of them.

Use whatever resistors you think give you low noise and good music, it
matters not
if your'e right or wrong about it; a quiet and untroubled mind is needed
for
music.
Auricaps are supposed to sound best as well but like resistances, I hear
no differences....

Patrick Turner.



Andre Jute
Our legislators managed to criminalize fox-hunting and smoking; when
they will get off their collective fat arse and criminalize negative
feedback? It is clearly consumed only by undesirables.

[Patrick Turner]

west wrote:

There are several different types of noise to avoid and reduce, if we can,
in designing tube circuits, from what I been studying. We can discuss these
different types of noises in general but for now I would like to concentrate
on 1 type of noise, current noise, the kind that is generated in a plate
load resistor. I believe that this is especially important in preamp
circuits.
Some tubies advocate that boutique components are all fluff and a waste of
money and I think they have a point, to a degree. However, will a low noise
resistor make a difference in reducing plate current noise? If yes, then
they can make a difference.
The question is ...can we quantify this difference and how? I think it would
be cool to measure this noise and simultaneously hear what difference a low
noise boutique resistor can make. I may be off base with this idea, if so
chalk it up to an inexperienced but eager to learn Rodent. Thoughts? Thanks.

Cordially,
west

If you study RDH4 about noise and resistance, you won't need to ask your
question here
because the book has the answers.

Or, the question you might ask if you had studied RDH4 might be one
unanswered by RDH4,
and then its worth asking here, eh.

Are you asking what is the EXTRA noise a resistor generates when a DC or
AC flow exists?

Do you undertsand your own question?


Patrick Turner.

[Patrick Turner]

Eeyore wrote:

west wrote:

There are several different types of noise to avoid and reduce, if we can,
in designing tube circuits, from what I been studying. We can discuss these
different types of noises in general but for now I would like to concentrate
on 1 type of noise, current noise, the kind that is generated in a plate
load resistor. I believe that this is especially important in preamp
circuits.

Do you mean 'excess noise' ? It's specified as a function of voltage and is
measured in uV of noise per V of applied DC ( uV/V ).

It varies with the resistive material used and construction.

The best performers are bulk metal, metal oxide (virtually extinct now) and
metal film. I imagine that wirewound types would have low excess noise too but
their inductance means they're not suitable for these kinds of gain stages.

Carbon film types can have quite low excess noise too. It does vary hugely from
manufacturer to manufacturer though. I've come across 'cheap' metal film that
was noisier than well-made carbon film for example.

Carbon composition has *huge* excess noise.

Graham

I must have missed out experiencing resistances what were more noisy
than the
number of ohms predicted they should be.

Does the OP ask what noise is generated by a DC flow or AC flow in
addition to the
noise naturally occuring without any current flow?

Patrick Turner.

[Phil Allison]

"Patrick Turner"

Does the OP ask what noise is generated by a DC flow or AC flow in
addition to the
noise naturally occuring without any current flow?


** Read the bloody heading

- you ****ing moron.




......... Phil

[Eeyore]

Patrick Turner wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
west wrote:

There are several different types of noise to avoid and reduce, if we can,
in designing tube circuits, from what I been studying. We can discuss these
different types of noises in general but for now I would like to concentrate
on 1 type of noise, current noise, the kind that is generated in a plate
load resistor. I believe that this is especially important in preamp
circuits.

Do you mean 'excess noise' ? It's specified as a function of voltage and is
measured in uV of noise per V of applied DC ( uV/V ).

It varies with the resistive material used and construction.

The best performers are bulk metal, metal oxide (virtually extinct now) and
metal film. I imagine that wirewound types would have low excess noise too but
their inductance means they're not suitable for these kinds of gain stages.

Carbon film types can have quite low excess noise too. It does vary hugely from
manufacturer to manufacturer though. I've come across 'cheap' metal film that was
noisier than well-made carbon film for example.

Carbon composition has *huge* excess noise.


I must have missed out experiencing resistances what were more noisy
than the number of ohms predicted they should be.

It's quite audible in some cases. However I'm not sure if tube circuitry can be made
quiet enough to easily demonstrate the effect.

Don't expect to be able to measure it very easily either, you need to listen. It
doesn't have a nice white sound to it either, you'll hear pops and crackles.


Does the OP ask what noise is generated by a DC flow or AC flow in
addition to the noise naturally occuring without any current flow?

That's how I read it.

The thermal / Johnson noise will be there regardless of any excess noise.

Graham

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Wed, 6 Jun 2007 12:48:50 +1000, "Phil Allison"
wrote:

"Patrick Turner"

Does the OP ask what noise is generated by a DC flow or AC flow in
addition to the
noise naturally occuring without any current flow?


** Read the bloody heading

Current noise is unrelated to any DC or AC current flow. It
might seem that more than just the OP are unaware of this.



- you ****ing moron.

Chris Hornbeck

[Eeyore]

Chris Hornbeck wrote:

"Phil Allison" wrote:
"Patrick Turner"

Does the OP ask what noise is generated by a DC flow or AC flow in
addition to the
noise naturally occuring without any current flow?


** Read the bloody heading

Current noise is unrelated to any DC or AC current flow. It
might seem that more than just the OP are unaware of this.

You must be thinking of currant noise.

Graham

[west[_4_]]

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


west wrote:

There are several different types of noise to avoid and reduce, if we
can,
in designing tube circuits, from what I been studying. We can discuss
these
different types of noises in general but for now I would like to
concentrate
on 1 type of noise, current noise, the kind that is generated in a plate
load resistor. I believe that this is especially important in preamp
circuits.
Some tubies advocate that boutique components are all fluff and a waste
of
money and I think they have a point, to a degree. However, will a low
noise
resistor make a difference in reducing plate current noise? If yes, then
they can make a difference.
The question is ...can we quantify this difference and how? I think it
would
be cool to measure this noise and simultaneously hear what difference a
low
noise boutique resistor can make. I may be off base with this idea, if
so
chalk it up to an inexperienced but eager to learn Rodent. Thoughts?
Thanks.

Cordially,
west

If you study RDH4 about noise and resistance, you won't need to ask your
question here
because the book has the answers.

Or, the question you might ask if you had studied RDH4 might be one
unanswered by RDH4,
and then its worth asking here, eh.

Are you asking what is the EXTRA noise a resistor generates when a DC or
AC flow exists?

Do you undertsand your own question?


Patrick Turner.

I think Phil A. answered your question already.

west

[Andre Jute]

west wrote:
There are several different types of noise to avoid and reduce, if we can,
in designing tube circuits, from what I been studying. We can discuss these
different types of noises in general but for now I would like to concentrate
on 1 type of noise, current noise, the kind that is generated in a plate
load resistor. I believe that this is especially important in preamp
circuits.
Some tubies advocate that boutique components are all fluff and a waste of
money and I think they have a point, to a degree. However, will a low noise
resistor make a difference in reducing plate current noise? If yes, then
they can make a difference.
The question is ...can we quantify this difference and how? I think it would
be cool to measure this noise and simultaneously hear what difference a low
noise boutique resistor can make. I may be off base with this idea, if so
chalk it up to an inexperienced but eager to learn Rodent. Thoughts? Thanks.

Cordially,
west

West:

This thread has already spiralled off into contending experts ego-
tripping. The two items of useful information in it is where Patrick
states the practical problem and where I tell you how to solve it.

Here Patrick states the problem: "the number of ohms was what
determined noise, and it mattered not one bit what kind of resistor it
was as long as the contacts to each end were mechanically tight"

And here I show how to solve the problem: "The solution is not fancy
resistors (you usually can't get them in the right ratings) but to use
standard oversized metal films in smaller values in series, say 6x10K
rather than one 62K." Thus you get both the silence of the smaller
ohmic value of each resistor (6x10k makes less noise than one by 62K)
and the silence of the oversized resistors running cooler. *That* is
why on all my amps the power resistors are, in strictly cost-
accounting engineering terms, overspecified; ditto for all the best
audiophile-designed tube amps. (The idiot Worthless Wieckless made an
offensive song and dance about overspecced resistors in my T39 Ultra-
Fi once because he is bog-ignorant -- I very carefully didn't explain
the real reason to him; he's such a wretched little man that nobody
else helped him out either. But those big ballast resistors account
for a good part of the silence of the amp.)

All the rest is, as I say, audiophoolery or "experts" tripping over
each other in their eagerness to show off.

Nobody stops you experimenting for yourself though; discovering
whether you like one sort of component better than another is half the
fun of building your own tube amps. There was a time when I swore by
Dale "non-inductive" cathode resistors on 300B and 845; today I just
use the 50W ali-cased jobs out of the RS catalogue. And I still like
Solen polyprops better than any other kind; you can get Solens in the
widest possible range of values in high voltage ratings and they sound
right in my amps and don't take up as much space as the (more
expensive) motor run polys I can buy locally.

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site
containing vital gems of wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review

[Ian Iveson]

Patrick said:

I must have missed out experiencing resistances what were more noisy
than the
number of ohms predicted they should be.

Does the OP ask what noise is generated by a DC flow or AC flow in
addition to the
noise naturally occuring without any current flow?

I don't know if it's true, but this page might help:

http://www.nikhef.nl/~jds/vlsi/noise/basicnoise.PDF

Google's first hit for "current noise"

cheers, Ian

[Jon Yaeger]

in article , Andre Jute
at wrote on 6/6/07 7:04 AM:


west wrote:
There are several different types of noise to avoid and reduce, if we can,
in designing tube circuits, from what I been studying. We can discuss these
different types of noises in general but for now I would like to concentrate
on 1 type of noise, current noise, the kind that is generated in a plate
load resistor. I believe that this is especially important in preamp
circuits.
Some tubies advocate that boutique components are all fluff and a waste of
money and I think they have a point, to a degree. However, will a low noise
resistor make a difference in reducing plate current noise? If yes, then
they can make a difference.
The question is ...can we quantify this difference and how? I think it would
be cool to measure this noise and simultaneously hear what difference a low
noise boutique resistor can make. I may be off base with this idea, if so
chalk it up to an inexperienced but eager to learn Rodent. Thoughts? Thanks.

Cordially,
west

West:

This thread has already spiralled off into contending experts ego-
tripping. The two items of useful information in it is where Patrick
states the practical problem and where I tell you how to solve it.

Here Patrick states the problem: "the number of ohms was what
determined noise, and it mattered not one bit what kind of resistor it
was as long as the contacts to each end were mechanically tight"

And here I show how to solve the problem: "The solution is not fancy
resistors (you usually can't get them in the right ratings) but to use
standard oversized metal films in smaller values in series, say 6x10K
rather than one 62K." Thus you get both the silence of the smaller
ohmic value of each resistor (6x10k makes less noise than one by 62K)
and the silence of the oversized resistors running cooler. *That* is
why on all my amps the power resistors are, in strictly cost-
accounting engineering terms, overspecified; ditto for all the best
audiophile-designed tube amps. (The idiot Worthless Wieckless made an
offensive song and dance about overspecced resistors in my T39 Ultra-
Fi once because he is bog-ignorant -- I very carefully didn't explain
the real reason to him; he's such a wretched little man that nobody
else helped him out either. But those big ballast resistors account
for a good part of the silence of the amp.)

All the rest is, as I say, audiophoolery or "experts" tripping over
each other in their eagerness to show off.

Nobody stops you experimenting for yourself though; discovering
whether you like one sort of component better than another is half the
fun of building your own tube amps. There was a time when I swore by
Dale "non-inductive" cathode resistors on 300B and 845; today I just
use the 50W ali-cased jobs out of the RS catalogue. And I still like
Solen polyprops better than any other kind; you can get Solens in the
widest possible range of values in high voltage ratings and they sound
right in my amps and don't take up as much space as the (more
expensive) motor run polys I can buy locally.

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site
containing vital gems of wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review



There are many kinds of noise. Jutean noise tend to be unpleasant, widely
distributed over the spectrum, and of long duration. Westian noise, on the
other hand, is of short duration, and of very limited bandwidth, but
unpleasant nonetheless.

Please tell me, Mr. Designer Guru, how (10) 6K resistors are supposedly
quieter than a single 60K resistor, when the equation for thermal noise,
expressed in volts/ sq. root of Hz, is:

Take the square root of: 4 * 1.38 * 10^-23 * R

Where R = ohms

Do the math and post your answers here.

Jon

[Peter Wieck]

On Jun 6, 7:11 am, "Ian Iveson"
wrote:
Patrick said:

I must have missed out experiencing resistances what were more noisy
than the
number of ohms predicted they should be.

Does the OP ask what noise is generated by a DC flow or AC flow in
addition to the
noise naturally occuring without any current flow?

I don't know if it's true, but this page might help:

http://www.nikhef.nl/~jds/vlsi/noise/basicnoise.PDF

Google's first hit for "current noise"

cheers, Ian

Please don't ask west to do any actual reseach before posting his
questions. He is searching for attention at a pseudo-learned level vs.
attempting anything that might be construed as actual discussion.

I am with Patrick on this one, based both on 35 years around the hobby
and extensive repairs of various sorts of tube equipment from that
made in the 20s to that made in the 90s. Good quality resistors,
carefully installed, of more-than-ample current rating against heat,
and heat-sinked if appropriate are about as noiseless as is audible on
any tube equipment. Wire-wound resistors tend to be the most rugged,
but as noted induction can be an issue in some circuits. Correct
shielding will reduce this problem, but one would question the need
for that sort of resistor unless in a very old-fashioned divider
network... something common in a lot of 30s-vintage equipment. A more
appropriate power-supply would be the better approach.

Thermal effects are the primary source of noise, all other things
being equal, so resistors able to withstand heating (read a repeat of
the current rating above) are best. At the levels most of us discuss,
the cost of any one sort of part or component is minimal as against
the time and labor lavished on the entirety. So the incremental cost
of a 1-watt resistor vs. a 1/2 watt resistor is effectively 0. All and
at the same time, boutique-resistors are in nearly every possible case
simply silly as compared to their more mundane brothers and sisters as
can actually be heard or measured. They may be pretty had have
significant eye-wash effects... and there are those who 'hear' with
their eyes (and their wallet) of course.

Soon the pretenders, sock-puppets and phools will ring in... 'twas
ever thus.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

[Phil Allison]

"Jon Yaeger Garage Vermin "



Please tell me, Mr. Designer Guru, how (10) 6K resistors are supposedly
quieter than a single 60K resistor, when the equation for thermal noise,
expressed in volts/ sq. root of Hz, is:



** Cos the subject is ** CURRENT NOISE **


- you ****ing, tenth witted P R I C K !!




......... Phil

[Andre Jute]

Stop looking people in the arse, Yeager. Instead, raise your eyes to
the subject. It is "Current Noise". -- Andre Jute

Jon Yaeger wrote:
in article , Andre Jute
at wrote on 6/6/07 7:04 AM:


west wrote:
There are several different types of noise to avoid and reduce, if we can,
in designing tube circuits, from what I been studying. We can discuss these
different types of noises in general but for now I would like to concentrate
on 1 type of noise, current noise, the kind that is generated in a plate
load resistor. I believe that this is especially important in preamp
circuits.
Some tubies advocate that boutique components are all fluff and a waste of
money and I think they have a point, to a degree. However, will a low noise
resistor make a difference in reducing plate current noise? If yes, then
they can make a difference.
The question is ...can we quantify this difference and how? I think it would
be cool to measure this noise and simultaneously hear what difference a low
noise boutique resistor can make. I may be off base with this idea, if so
chalk it up to an inexperienced but eager to learn Rodent. Thoughts? Thanks.

Cordially,
west

West:

This thread has already spiralled off into contending experts ego-
tripping. The two items of useful information in it is where Patrick
states the practical problem and where I tell you how to solve it.

Here Patrick states the problem: "the number of ohms was what
determined noise, and it mattered not one bit what kind of resistor it
was as long as the contacts to each end were mechanically tight"

And here I show how to solve the problem: "The solution is not fancy
resistors (you usually can't get them in the right ratings) but to use
standard oversized metal films in smaller values in series, say 6x10K
rather than one 62K." Thus you get both the silence of the smaller
ohmic value of each resistor (6x10k makes less noise than one by 62K)
and the silence of the oversized resistors running cooler. *That* is
why on all my amps the power resistors are, in strictly cost-
accounting engineering terms, overspecified; ditto for all the best
audiophile-designed tube amps. (The idiot Worthless Wieckless made an
offensive song and dance about overspecced resistors in my T39 Ultra-
Fi once because he is bog-ignorant -- I very carefully didn't explain
the real reason to him; he's such a wretched little man that nobody
else helped him out either. But those big ballast resistors account
for a good part of the silence of the amp.)

All the rest is, as I say, audiophoolery or "experts" tripping over
each other in their eagerness to show off.

Nobody stops you experimenting for yourself though; discovering
whether you like one sort of component better than another is half the
fun of building your own tube amps. There was a time when I swore by
Dale "non-inductive" cathode resistors on 300B and 845; today I just
use the 50W ali-cased jobs out of the RS catalogue. And I still like
Solen polyprops better than any other kind; you can get Solens in the
widest possible range of values in high voltage ratings and they sound
right in my amps and don't take up as much space as the (more
expensive) motor run polys I can buy locally.

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site
containing vital gems of wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review



There are many kinds of noise. Jutean noise tend to be unpleasant, widely
distributed over the spectrum, and of long duration. Westian noise, on the
other hand, is of short duration, and of very limited bandwidth, but
unpleasant nonetheless.

Please tell me, Mr. Designer Guru, how (10) 6K resistors are supposedly
quieter than a single 60K resistor, when the equation for thermal noise,
expressed in volts/ sq. root of Hz, is:

Take the square root of: 4 * 1.38 * 10^-23 * R

Where R = ohms

Do the math and post your answers here.

Jon

[Jon Yaeger]

Andre,

Last time I checked, E=IR. Also, the same amount of current flows through a
row of (10) 6K resistors as through a single 60K part.

You make the claim that 10 parts are quieter than 1. Call it what you want
- you are mistaken in any case. Or prove me wrong, using math instead of
anecdote.

Jon






in article , Andre Jute
at wrote on 6/6/07 8:00 AM:

Stop looking people in the arse, Yeager. Instead, raise your eyes to
the subject. It is "Current Noise". -- Andre Jute

Jon Yaeger wrote:
in article , Andre Jute
at wrote on 6/6/07 7:04 AM:


west wrote:
There are several different types of noise to avoid and reduce, if we can,
in designing tube circuits, from what I been studying. We can discuss these
different types of noises in general but for now I would like to
concentrate
on 1 type of noise, current noise, the kind that is generated in a plate
load resistor. I believe that this is especially important in preamp
circuits.
Some tubies advocate that boutique components are all fluff and a waste of
money and I think they have a point, to a degree. However, will a low noise
resistor make a difference in reducing plate current noise? If yes, then
they can make a difference.
The question is ...can we quantify this difference and how? I think it
would
be cool to measure this noise and simultaneously hear what difference a low
noise boutique resistor can make. I may be off base with this idea, if so
chalk it up to an inexperienced but eager to learn Rodent. Thoughts?
Thanks.

Cordially,
west

West:

This thread has already spiralled off into contending experts ego-
tripping. The two items of useful information in it is where Patrick
states the practical problem and where I tell you how to solve it.

Here Patrick states the problem: "the number of ohms was what
determined noise, and it mattered not one bit what kind of resistor it
was as long as the contacts to each end were mechanically tight"

And here I show how to solve the problem: "The solution is not fancy
resistors (you usually can't get them in the right ratings) but to use
standard oversized metal films in smaller values in series, say 6x10K
rather than one 62K." Thus you get both the silence of the smaller
ohmic value of each resistor (6x10k makes less noise than one by 62K)
and the silence of the oversized resistors running cooler. *That* is
why on all my amps the power resistors are, in strictly cost-
accounting engineering terms, overspecified; ditto for all the best
audiophile-designed tube amps. (The idiot Worthless Wieckless made an
offensive song and dance about overspecced resistors in my T39 Ultra-
Fi once because he is bog-ignorant -- I very carefully didn't explain
the real reason to him; he's such a wretched little man that nobody
else helped him out either. But those big ballast resistors account
for a good part of the silence of the amp.)

All the rest is, as I say, audiophoolery or "experts" tripping over
each other in their eagerness to show off.

Nobody stops you experimenting for yourself though; discovering
whether you like one sort of component better than another is half the
fun of building your own tube amps. There was a time when I swore by
Dale "non-inductive" cathode resistors on 300B and 845; today I just
use the 50W ali-cased jobs out of the RS catalogue. And I still like
Solen polyprops better than any other kind; you can get Solens in the
widest possible range of values in high voltage ratings and they sound
right in my amps and don't take up as much space as the (more
expensive) motor run polys I can buy locally.

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site
containing vital gems of wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review



There are many kinds of noise. Jutean noise tend to be unpleasant, widely
distributed over the spectrum, and of long duration. Westian noise, on the
other hand, is of short duration, and of very limited bandwidth, but
unpleasant nonetheless.

Please tell me, Mr. Designer Guru, how (10) 6K resistors are supposedly
quieter than a single 60K resistor, when the equation for thermal noise,
expressed in volts/ sq. root of Hz, is:

Take the square root of: 4 * 1.38 * 10^-23 * R

Where R = ohms

Do the math and post your answers here.

Jon

[Andre Jute]

The Atlanta rentass and garage vermin Jon Yaeger wrote:
Andre,

I wasn't aware that we are on firstname terms, Yaeger. Who knows what
disease one can contract from permitting someone like you to be
familiar?

Last time I checked, E=IR. Also, the same amount of current flows through a
row of (10) 6K resistors as through a single 60K part.

You make the claim that 10 parts are quieter than 1.

No, I didn't say, nor "claim" that "10 parts are quieter than 1". You
haven't read what I said. You haven't read the thread. Can you read?
Do you comprehend?

Call it what you want

I haven't called it anything, and shan't until I know what it is
you're trying to discuss. Unlike your friend Krueger, I don't just
talk to hear the sound of my own voice (unless someone pays me in
excess of ten bucks a word, of course, and then I talk -- or write --
so that the multitude may hear and little old me becomes irrelevant in
the amazement of many voices).

- you are mistaken in any case.

A delightful occurrence which fortunately often happens to me, and
then I serendipidously run into a charming man who wants to help me on
the road to knowledge, or often even into a charming woman ditto.
Every time I am mistaken, I learn something and make a new friend.
Magic!

Or prove me wrong,

Of course I shall, as soon as I discover what it is you want to
discuss. Given your track record on RAT and mine, the statistical
likelihood that I could be wrong and you right must be vanishingly
small, don't you agree? I wish it were different, that you knew
something useful to me, but I'm not holding my breath.

using math instead of anecdote.

Any port in a storm. Do the sailors still say that where you work?

Jon

in article , Andre Jute
at wrote on 6/6/07 8:00 AM:

Stop looking people in the arse, Yeager. Instead, raise your eyes to
the subject. It is "Current Noise". -- Andre Jute

Yup, I got it right first time round.

Unsigned for the usual reasons


Jon Yaeger wrote:
in article , Andre Jute
at wrote on 6/6/07 7:04 AM:


west wrote:
There are several different types of noise to avoid and reduce, if we can,
in designing tube circuits, from what I been studying. We can discuss these
different types of noises in general but for now I would like to
concentrate
on 1 type of noise, current noise, the kind that is generated in a plate
load resistor. I believe that this is especially important in preamp
circuits.
Some tubies advocate that boutique components are all fluff and a waste of
money and I think they have a point, to a degree. However, will a low noise
resistor make a difference in reducing plate current noise? If yes, then
they can make a difference.
The question is ...can we quantify this difference and how? I think it
would
be cool to measure this noise and simultaneously hear what difference a low
noise boutique resistor can make. I may be off base with this idea, if so
chalk it up to an inexperienced but eager to learn Rodent. Thoughts?
Thanks.

Cordially,
west

West:

This thread has already spiralled off into contending experts ego-
tripping. The two items of useful information in it is where Patrick
states the practical problem and where I tell you how to solve it.

Here Patrick states the problem: "the number of ohms was what
determined noise, and it mattered not one bit what kind of resistor it
was as long as the contacts to each end were mechanically tight"

And here I show how to solve the problem: "The solution is not fancy
resistors (you usually can't get them in the right ratings) but to use
standard oversized metal films in smaller values in series, say 6x10K
rather than one 62K." Thus you get both the silence of the smaller
ohmic value of each resistor (6x10k makes less noise than one by 62K)
and the silence of the oversized resistors running cooler. *That* is
why on all my amps the power resistors are, in strictly cost-
accounting engineering terms, overspecified; ditto for all the best
audiophile-designed tube amps. (The idiot Worthless Wieckless made an
offensive song and dance about overspecced resistors in my T39 Ultra-
Fi once because he is bog-ignorant -- I very carefully didn't explain
the real reason to him; he's such a wretched little man that nobody
else helped him out either. But those big ballast resistors account
for a good part of the silence of the amp.)

All the rest is, as I say, audiophoolery or "experts" tripping over
each other in their eagerness to show off.

Nobody stops you experimenting for yourself though; discovering
whether you like one sort of component better than another is half the
fun of building your own tube amps. There was a time when I swore by
Dale "non-inductive" cathode resistors on 300B and 845; today I just
use the 50W ali-cased jobs out of the RS catalogue. And I still like
Solen polyprops better than any other kind; you can get Solens in the
widest possible range of values in high voltage ratings and they sound
right in my amps and don't take up as much space as the (more
expensive) motor run polys I can buy locally.

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site
containing vital gems of wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review



There are many kinds of noise. Jutean noise tend to be unpleasant, widely
distributed over the spectrum, and of long duration. Westian noise, on the
other hand, is of short duration, and of very limited bandwidth, but
unpleasant nonetheless.

Please tell me, Mr. Designer Guru, how (10) 6K resistors are supposedly
quieter than a single 60K resistor, when the equation for thermal noise,
expressed in volts/ sq. root of Hz, is:

Take the square root of: 4 * 1.38 * 10^-23 * R

Where R = ohms

Do the math and post your answers here.

Jon

[Jon Yaeger]

The Atlanta rentass and garage vermin Jon Yaeger wrote:
Andre,

I wasn't aware that we are on firstname terms, Yaeger. Who knows what
disease one can contract from permitting someone like you to be
familiar?


**** I'm sorry. Permit me to start over. Hey asswipe!


Last time I checked, E=IR. Also, the same amount of current flows through a
row of (10) 6K resistors as through a single 60K part.

You make the claim that 10 parts are quieter than 1.

No, I didn't say, nor "claim" that "10 parts are quieter than 1". You
haven't read what I said. You haven't read the thread. Can you read?
Do you comprehend?

**** Me bad. Your ratio was 6-1 instead of 10-1. Yup, my mistake. True, I
don't read your posts very carefully . . . I don't care for the fatuous
B.S. and most of what you write interests me zero.

**** Like I said before, I appreciate your writing as both good and
original. But what is original isn't very good, and what is good isn't
original . . .

Call it what you want

I haven't called it anything, and shan't until I know what it is
you're trying to discuss. Unlike your friend Krueger, I don't just
talk to hear the sound of my own voice (unless someone pays me in
excess of ten bucks a word, of course, and then I talk -- or write --
so that the multitude may hear and little old me becomes irrelevant in
the amazement of many voices).

**** Of course, Asswipe. Those recipes and bike trips that you publish
were in response to urgent inquiries, no doubt. You are obviously a
self-made man who worships his creator.

- you are mistaken in any case.

A delightful occurrence which fortunately often happens to me, and
then I serendipidously run into a charming man who wants to help me on
the road to knowledge, or often even into a charming woman ditto.
Every time I am mistaken, I learn something and make a new friend.
Magic!

Or prove me wrong,

Of course I shall, as soon as I discover what it is you want to
discuss. Given your track record on RAT and mine, the statistical
likelihood that I could be wrong and you right must be vanishingly
small, don't you agree? I wish it were different, that you knew
something useful to me, but I'm not holding my breath.

**** OK, pull it out and show us. Statistical probability has nothing to do
with anything.

using math instead of anecdote.

**** Just do the numbers, and STFU.

Any port in a storm. Do the sailors still say that where you work?

**** You're the one with the penchant for semen, not me . . . .




Jon

in article , Andre Jute
at wrote on 6/6/07 8:00 AM:

Stop looking people in the arse, Yeager. Instead, raise your eyes to
the subject. It is "Current Noise". -- Andre Jute

Yup, I got it right first time round.

Unsigned for the usual reasons


Jon Yaeger wrote:
in article , Andre Jute
at wrote on 6/6/07 7:04 AM:


west wrote:
There are several different types of noise to avoid and reduce, if we
can,
in designing tube circuits, from what I been studying. We can discuss
these
different types of noises in general but for now I would like to
concentrate
on 1 type of noise, current noise, the kind that is generated in a plate
load resistor. I believe that this is especially important in preamp
circuits.
Some tubies advocate that boutique components are all fluff and a waste
of
money and I think they have a point, to a degree. However, will a low
noise
resistor make a difference in reducing plate current noise? If yes, then
they can make a difference.
The question is ...can we quantify this difference and how? I think it
would
be cool to measure this noise and simultaneously hear what difference a
low
noise boutique resistor can make. I may be off base with this idea, if so
chalk it up to an inexperienced but eager to learn Rodent. Thoughts?
Thanks.

Cordially,
west

West:

This thread has already spiralled off into contending experts ego-
tripping. The two items of useful information in it is where Patrick
states the practical problem and where I tell you how to solve it.

Here Patrick states the problem: "the number of ohms was what
determined noise, and it mattered not one bit what kind of resistor it
was as long as the contacts to each end were mechanically tight"

And here I show how to solve the problem: "The solution is not fancy
resistors (you usually can't get them in the right ratings) but to use
standard oversized metal films in smaller values in series, say 6x10K
rather than one 62K." Thus you get both the silence of the smaller
ohmic value of each resistor (6x10k makes less noise than one by 62K)
and the silence of the oversized resistors running cooler. *That* is
why on all my amps the power resistors are, in strictly cost-
accounting engineering terms, overspecified; ditto for all the best
audiophile-designed tube amps. (The idiot Worthless Wieckless made an
offensive song and dance about overspecced resistors in my T39 Ultra-
Fi once because he is bog-ignorant -- I very carefully didn't explain
the real reason to him; he's such a wretched little man that nobody
else helped him out either. But those big ballast resistors account
for a good part of the silence of the amp.)

All the rest is, as I say, audiophoolery or "experts" tripping over
each other in their eagerness to show off.

Nobody stops you experimenting for yourself though; discovering
whether you like one sort of component better than another is half the
fun of building your own tube amps. There was a time when I swore by
Dale "non-inductive" cathode resistors on 300B and 845; today I just
use the 50W ali-cased jobs out of the RS catalogue. And I still like
Solen polyprops better than any other kind; you can get Solens in the
widest possible range of values in high voltage ratings and they sound
right in my amps and don't take up as much space as the (more
expensive) motor run polys I can buy locally.

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site
containing vital gems of wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review



There are many kinds of noise. Jutean noise tend to be unpleasant, widely
distributed over the spectrum, and of long duration. Westian noise, on the
other hand, is of short duration, and of very limited bandwidth, but
unpleasant nonetheless.

Please tell me, Mr. Designer Guru, how (10) 6K resistors are supposedly
quieter than a single 60K resistor, when the equation for thermal noise,
expressed in volts/ sq. root of Hz, is:

Take the square root of: 4 * 1.38 * 10^-23 * R

Where R = ohms

Do the math and post your answers here.

Jon

[Jon Yaeger]

Oops! That should be "seamen." What was I thinking???

[Andre Jute]

Jon Yaeger wrote:

The Atlanta rentass and garage vermin Jon Yaeger wrote:
Andre,

I wasn't aware that we are on firstname terms, Yaeger. Who knows what
disease one can contract from permitting someone like you to be
familiar?

**** I'm sorry. Permit me to start over. Hey asswipe!

What is it you're starting *over*, Yaeger? We haven't started the
first thing yet. I'm still trying to find out what you're on about.

Last time I checked, E=IR. Also, the same amount of current flows through a
row of (10) 6K resistors as through a single 60K part.

You make the claim that 10 parts are quieter than 1.

No, I didn't say, nor "claim" that "10 parts are quieter than 1". You
haven't read what I said. You haven't read the thread. Can you read?
Do you comprehend?

**** Me bad. Your ratio was 6-1 instead of 10-1. Yup, my mistake. True, I
don't read your posts very carefully . . . I don't care for the fatuous
B.S. and most of what you write interests me zero.

Then why are you carrying on this extended correspondence with me? The
only facts in it so far is the one that whenever you try to argue with
me you lose first your temper and then the argument.

**** Like I said before, I appreciate your writing as both good and
original. But what is original isn't very good, and what is good isn't
original . . .

Your limply worn, plagiarized joke explains why my books run to 300
editions and you can't get yours published.

Call it what you want

I haven't called it anything, and shan't until I know what it is
you're trying to discuss. Unlike your friend Krueger, I don't just
talk to hear the sound of my own voice (unless someone pays me in
excess of ten bucks a word, of course, and then I talk -- or write --
so that the multitude may hear and little old me becomes irrelevant in
the amazement of many voices).

**** Of course, Asswipe. Those recipes and bike trips that you publish
were in response to urgent inquiries, no doubt.

If you look carefully, Yeager, you will discover that I sold those
cycling articles elsewhere first. But why should I not promote my town
as I see fit? I don't understand what business it is of yours. Perhaps
you should get a life of your own rather than try to live mine.

You are obviously a
self-made man who worships his creator.

I admit to good taste. So, what else is new?

- you are mistaken in any case.

A delightful occurrence which fortunately often happens to me, and
then I serendipidously run into a charming man who wants to help me on
the road to knowledge, or often even into a charming woman ditto.
Every time I am mistaken, I learn something and make a new friend.
Magic!

Or prove me wrong,

Of course I shall, as soon as I discover what it is you want to
discuss. Given your track record on RAT and mine, the statistical
likelihood that I could be wrong and you right must be vanishingly
small, don't you agree? I wish it were different, that you knew
something useful to me, but I'm not holding my breath.

**** OK, pull it out and show us. Statistical probability has nothing to do
with anything.

Why are you so obsessed with people's private parts, Yaeger? Surely
you get enough of that in your work.

using math instead of anecdote.

**** Just do the numbers, and STFU.

What numbers? You haven't offered me any numbers to work with. And you
already know that you aren't man enough to shut me up.

Any port in a storm. Do the sailors still say that where you work?

**** You're the one with the penchant for semen, not me . . . .

Holy ****! I speak of navigation in adverse weather, and you jump from
there to semen. What is it with you, Yaeger? Are you too diseased to
work any more?

Jon

in article , Andre Jute
at wrote on 6/6/07 8:00 AM:

Stop looking people in the arse, Yeager. Instead, raise your eyes to
the subject. It is "Current Noise". -- Andre Jute

Yup, I got it right first time round.

Unsigned for the usual reasons

Nothing is changed except my time is being wasted. Tell me what you
want, Yaeger, in a single sentence, or I'm gone.

Unsigned for the usual reasons, intensified.


Jon Yaeger wrote:
in article , Andre Jute
at wrote on 6/6/07 7:04 AM:


west wrote:
There are several different types of noise to avoid and reduce, if we
can,
in designing tube circuits, from what I been studying. We can discuss
these
different types of noises in general but for now I would like to
concentrate
on 1 type of noise, current noise, the kind that is generated in a plate
load resistor. I believe that this is especially important in preamp
circuits.
Some tubies advocate that boutique components are all fluff and a waste
of
money and I think they have a point, to a degree. However, will a low
noise
resistor make a difference in reducing plate current noise? If yes, then
they can make a difference.
The question is ...can we quantify this difference and how? I think it
would
be cool to measure this noise and simultaneously hear what difference a
low
noise boutique resistor can make. I may be off base with this idea, if so
chalk it up to an inexperienced but eager to learn Rodent. Thoughts?
Thanks.

Cordially,
west

West:

This thread has already spiralled off into contending experts ego-
tripping. The two items of useful information in it is where Patrick
states the practical problem and where I tell you how to solve it.

Here Patrick states the problem: "the number of ohms was what
determined noise, and it mattered not one bit what kind of resistor it
was as long as the contacts to each end were mechanically tight"

And here I show how to solve the problem: "The solution is not fancy
resistors (you usually can't get them in the right ratings) but to use
standard oversized metal films in smaller values in series, say 6x10K
rather than one 62K." Thus you get both the silence of the smaller
ohmic value of each resistor (6x10k makes less noise than one by 62K)
and the silence of the oversized resistors running cooler. *That* is
why on all my amps the power resistors are, in strictly cost-
accounting engineering terms, overspecified; ditto for all the best
audiophile-designed tube amps. (The idiot Worthless Wieckless made an
offensive song and dance about overspecced resistors in my T39 Ultra-
Fi once because he is bog-ignorant -- I very carefully didn't explain
the real reason to him; he's such a wretched little man that nobody
else helped him out either. But those big ballast resistors account
for a good part of the silence of the amp.)

All the rest is, as I say, audiophoolery or "experts" tripping over
each other in their eagerness to show off.

Nobody stops you experimenting for yourself though; discovering
whether you like one sort of component better than another is half the
fun of building your own tube amps. There was a time when I swore by
Dale "non-inductive" cathode resistors on 300B and 845; today I just
use the 50W ali-cased jobs out of the RS catalogue. And I still like
Solen polyprops better than any other kind; you can get Solens in the
widest possible range of values in high voltage ratings and they sound
right in my amps and don't take up as much space as the (more
expensive) motor run polys I can buy locally.

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site
containing vital gems of wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review



There are many kinds of noise. Jutean noise tend to be unpleasant, widely
distributed over the spectrum, and of long duration. Westian noise, on the
other hand, is of short duration, and of very limited bandwidth, but
unpleasant nonetheless.

Please tell me, Mr. Designer Guru, how (10) 6K resistors are supposedly
quieter than a single 60K resistor, when the equation for thermal noise,
expressed in volts/ sq. root of Hz, is:

Take the square root of: 4 * 1.38 * 10^-23 * R

Where R = ohms

Do the math and post your answers here.

Jon

[Andre Jute]

Jon Yaeger wrote:
semen
Oops! That should be "seamen." What was I thinking???

Would you mind not telling us about your work. We're trying to clean
up RAT. Thanks for your understanding. -- Andre Jute

[Peter Wieck]

On Jun 6, 1:01 pm, Andre Jute wrote:

Nothing is changed except my time is being wasted. Tell me what you
want, Yaeger, in a single sentence, or I'm gone.

Jon:

Pretty please, don't answer. Maybe Mr. Jute will actually carry out
one of his many threats... just once.

Pretty please?

And

Pretty please keep this promise. Forever. And for the first time ever.
Prove that you can be an honest man!

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

[Sander deWaal]

Peter Wieck said:


On Jun 6, 1:01 pm, Andre Jute wrote:

Nothing is changed except my time is being wasted. Tell me what you
want, Yaeger, in a single sentence, or I'm gone.


Jon:

Pretty please, don't answer. Maybe Mr. Jute will actually carry out
one of his many threats... just once.

Pretty please?

And

Pretty please keep this promise. Forever. And for the first time ever.
Prove that you can be an honest man!


"Those of us who have the entire Jute coterie killfiled do not see
this crap until some poor benighted fool gives it feet and answers it.
In this case, that would be you. "

;-)


As far as resistor noise goes, current-induced or not: soldering them
with a too high tip temperature, or/and heating them up for too long
will ruin them.

Solder them quickly, and don't bend the wires too close to the
resistor body.

--

- Maggies are an addiction for life. -

[Eeyore]

Andre Jute wrote:

"The solution is not fancy
resistors (you usually can't get them in the right ratings) but to use
standard oversized metal films in smaller values in series, say 6x10K
rather than one 62K." Thus you get both the silence of the smaller
ohmic value of each resistor (6x10k makes less noise than one by 62K)
and the silence of the oversized resistors running cooler.

Can you elaborate on your point... "6x10k makes less noise than one by 62K" ?

Running a resistor cooler by using a larger bodied part will indeed reduce the
thermal noise contribution from it.


Graham

[Eeyore]

Andre Jute wrote:

And I still like
Solen polyprops better than any other kind; you can get Solens in the
widest possible range of values in high voltage ratings and they sound
right in my amps and don't take up as much space as the (more
expensive) motor run polys I can buy locally.

Now I'd have to ask if why you're so keen on Solen as a brand. Is it simply brand
loyalty ?

Graham

[Eeyore]

Phil Allison wrote:

"Jon Yaeger Garage Vermin "

Please tell me, Mr. Designer Guru, how (10) 6K resistors are supposedly
quieter than a single 60K resistor, when the equation for thermal noise,
expressed in volts/ sq. root of Hz, is:

** Cos the subject is ** CURRENT NOISE **

- you ****ing, tenth witted P R I C K !!

You should have made that point in response to the joot's post actually, where
with casual disregard he entirely abandoned the topic of the thread..

Graham

[Eeyore]

Andre Jute wrote:

Stop looking people in the arse, Yeager. Instead, raise your eyes to
the subject. It is "Current Noise". -- Andre Jute

So why did you post about "Thermal Noise" ?

Graham

[Eeyore]

Jon Yaeger wrote:

Oops! That should be "seamen." What was I thinking???

You were right the first time. Andrew Joot is not a great fancier of the
'fairer' sex.

Graham

[Iain Churches]

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Andre Jute wrote:

"The solution is not fancy
resistors (you usually can't get them in the right ratings) but to use
standard oversized metal films in smaller values in series, say 6x10K
rather than one 62K." Thus you get both the silence of the smaller
ohmic value of each resistor (6x10k makes less noise than one by 62K)
and the silence of the oversized resistors running cooler.

Can you elaborate on your point... "6x10k makes less noise than one by
62K" ?

Running a resistor cooler by using a larger bodied part will indeed reduce
the
thermal noise contribution from it.

Perhaps for this very reason I have seen resistors replaced by several
parallel values to give the equivalent of the single value?

Iain

[Peter Wieck]

On Jun 6, 1:47 pm, Sander deWaal wrote:

As far as resistor noise goes, current-induced or not: soldering them
with a too high tip temperature, or/and heating them up for too long
will ruin them.

Solder them quickly, and don't bend the wires too close to the
resistor body.

A properly hot iron for a few seconds will do a much better and less
damaging job to the workpiece than a cooler iron for longer. And a
miniature flat-jaw alligator clip soldered to a couple of inches/50mm
of 12ga. copper wire makes a super heat-sink for fine work.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

[Peter Wieck]

On Jun 6, 2:45 pm, "Iain Churches" wrote:
"Eeyore" wrote in message

...







Andre Jute wrote:

"The solution is not fancy
resistors (you usually can't get them in the right ratings) but to use
standard oversized metal films in smaller values in series, say 6x10K
rather than one 62K." Thus you get both the silence of the smaller
ohmic value of each resistor (6x10k makes less noise than one by 62K)
and the silence of the oversized resistors running cooler.

Can you elaborate on your point... "6x10k makes less noise than one by
62K" ?

Running a resistor cooler by using a larger bodied part will indeed reduce
the
thermal noise contribution from it.

Perhaps for this very reason I have seen resistors replaced by several
parallel values to give the equivalent of the single value?

Iain- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There are other reasons that do not bear repetition here, but
certainly spreading the load (and the associated heat build-up) is an
ancillary benefit. And if one does not have the correct heavier values
at hand, this is a valid expedient. Of course, unless each resistor is
(almost exactly) the same value, heat (load) will be distributed
across them by specific resistance.

I am not so sure I see the benefit in series-resistors unless the goal
is a voltage divider network, ultimately. Each resistor 'sees' the
entire load, so there are no heat benefits, all of them would have to
have the minimum rating required anyway.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

[Iain Churches]

"Peter Wieck" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Jun 6, 2:45 pm, "Iain Churches" wrote:
"Eeyore" wrote in message

...







Andre Jute wrote:

"The solution is not fancy
resistors (you usually can't get them in the right ratings) but to use
standard oversized metal films in smaller values in series, say 6x10K
rather than one 62K." Thus you get both the silence of the smaller
ohmic value of each resistor (6x10k makes less noise than one by 62K)
and the silence of the oversized resistors running cooler.

Can you elaborate on your point... "6x10k makes less noise than one by
62K" ?

Running a resistor cooler by using a larger bodied part will indeed
reduce
the
thermal noise contribution from it.

Perhaps for this very reason I have seen resistors replaced by several
parallel values to give the equivalent of the single value?

Iain- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There are other reasons that do not bear repetition here, but
certainly spreading the load (and the associated heat build-up) is an
ancillary benefit. And if one does not have the correct heavier values
at hand, this is a valid expedient. Of course, unless each resistor is
(almost exactly) the same value, heat (load) will be distributed
across them by specific resistance.

Yes of course. I have seen several schematics with such parallel
networks, and a pal of mine in the UK made me a very useful
Excel spreadsheet in which one can enter the required value and
ascertain the resistors required for a two or three component
parallel equivalent. I find this very useful.

Regards to all
Iain

[Arny Krueger]

"Eeyore" wrote in
message
Chris Hornbeck wrote:

"Phil Allison" wrote:
"Patrick Turner"

Does the OP ask what noise is generated by a DC flow
or AC flow in addition to the
noise naturally occuring without any current flow?


** Read the bloody heading

Current noise is unrelated to any DC or AC current flow.
It might seem that more than just the OP are unaware of
this.

You must be thinking of currant noise.

We only have currant noise around here over the holidays... ;-)

[west[_4_]]

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

"Jon Yaeger Garage Vermin "



Please tell me, Mr. Designer Guru, how (10) 6K resistors are supposedly
quieter than a single 60K resistor, when the equation for thermal noise,
expressed in volts/ sq. root of Hz, is:



** Cos the subject is ** CURRENT NOISE **


- you ****ing, tenth witted P R I C K !!




........ Phil

I think I love you, Phil!

west

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 04:43:32 GMT, Eeyore
wrote:

Current noise is unrelated to any DC or AC current flow. It
might seem that more than just the OP are unaware of this.

You must be thinking of currant noise.

Just read through the whole current (currant?) thread.
It seems like only you and Patrick know the meaning of
excess noise or current noise. Or that they're unrelated.
Or that one applies to resistors and one doesn't,
ferzample.

Noise is a topic that folks here might appreciate a
short post about. Wanna take a swing?

Much thanks, as always,

Chris Hornbeck

[Andre Jute]

Chris Hornbeck wrote:
On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 04:43:32 GMT, Eeyore
wrote:

Current noise is unrelated to any DC or AC current flow. It
might seem that more than just the OP are unaware of this.

You must be thinking of currant noise.

Just read through the whole current (currant?) thread.
It seems like only you and Patrick know the meaning of
excess noise or current noise. Or that they're unrelated.
Or that one applies to resistors and one doesn't,
ferzample.

How many angels did you say are dancing on the head of your pin,
Chris?

Pray explain the difference between current noise, excess noise. 1/f
noise, and flicker noise. lt's a trick question, of course.

Noise is a topic that folks here might appreciate a
short post about. Wanna take a swing?

We already have too much experience of waiting forever for Poopie to
do something useful; he's a worse dilator than Pinkerton ever was. You
want the job done, do it yourself. That Poopie didn't do it is not an
acceptable excuse. Too hackneyed, even if we all know it is
true.

Much thanks, as always,

Chris Hornbeck

Duh.

Andre Jute
Just bright enough to doublecheck everything I read on RAT with a
reliable authority

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 16:39:19 -0700, Andre Jute
wrote:

Pray explain the difference between current noise, excess noise. 1/f
noise, and flicker noise. lt's a trick question, of course.

These four types of noise are unrelated and come from four
different causes. Confusion among them is common, but
mistaken, although one term is generic enough to cover
the others.

All four you've listed can readily be described, but one of the
four has mysterious origins. It's a trick question, of course.

Batter up!


Much thanks, as always,

Chris Hornbeck

[Peter Wieck]

On Jun 6, 5:31 pm, "west" wrote:

I think I love you, Phil!

west


Uh, why am I not surprised?

west, your name would be?

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA