Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 22:41:29 +1100, Patrick Turner
wrote:



Ian Iveson wrote:

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote

Besides, I don't 'bash' *good* tube amps, just the ones which
sound
different from the input signal.

What does the input signal sound like? I use amplifiers and speakers
because I can't hear it on its own.

Perhaps you mean *measure* like?

He can hear the measurements; his hearing has improved to compensate for

his one eyedness.

Bull**** - you are being dishonest, as you're perfectly well aware
that I'm talking about a bypass test, not any kind of measurement.

I am not being dishonest. I am being fractious, vexatious, bypassious,
even confabulatory, but not measurementitious, and yer can put it all in your
pipe and smoke it.

I'd rather be out sailing.

Patrick Turner.


--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 23:59:36 +0100, Sander deWaal
wrote:

Stewart Pinkerton said:

Sir Robert Watson-Watt was born in Brechin, Angus, about five miles
from my home town of Montrose (Watson and Watt are very local names to
this area), and got his degree at University College, Dundee. I worked
at the same Institute for some time - indeed, I was working there when
he died. He did most of his work in England (as do many Scots!), but
he died in Inverness in 1973, so he remained a true Scot to the very
end.

A true Scot would have refused the H.M. title :-)

One should not refight old battles, and Lizzie is Queen of the United
Kingdom, not just England. Of course, she's not QE the *second* of
Scotland, which caused some fuss when the Clyde-built ship was
launched..........................

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

I hope you recover from your sickness soon, since it must be awkward
trying to judge distances with only one eye.

Not if you have a laser rangefinder.

I spent five of my years at HP selling those while they had a Civil Engineering
Division. It was great going to work with the land surveyors in jeans & mud
boots!!
Got to see a lot of wolderness country while at it too.

Cheers anyway, John Stewart

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"Ian Iveson" said:

...Would the missing beats sound different on
different systems?

This is exactly how music compression like ATRAC works.
The comparisons and ABX tests have been done to death on that
subject.

Oh. Didn't know they were so clever but as I said, the big companies
know some stuff. And do different systems render the absent sound
differently? Do you have a reference please?


What I actually meant was the mechanism of masking that you described
earlier on in this thread.

There's enough to find about that on the internet.

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 12:08:05 -0500, John Stewart
wrote:

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

I hope you recover from your sickness soon, since it must be awkward
trying to judge distances with only one eye.

Not if you have a laser rangefinder.

I spent five of my years at HP selling those while they had a Civil Engineering
Division. It was great going to work with the land surveyors in jeans & mud
boots!!
Got to see a lot of wolderness country while at it too.

Fun toys, lasers. I did some consultancy work for Keeler Instruments
in Windsor a while back, working on an ophthalmic surgery laser -
basically a spot-welder for eyeballs! :-)
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 10:22:11 +1100, Trevor Wilson wrote:
A true Scot would have refused the H.M. title :-)

**Nope. The Scots have a long and proud history of opportunism.

You mean, like when the Scots sold the Encyclopaedia
Brittanica to the University of Chicago? At least they
sold it to place that's well endowed and has lots of
Nobel Prize winners to its credit, rather than some
English dump like, say, Oxford ;-)

--
Ned Carlson Triode Electronics Chicago,IL USA
www.triodeelectronics.com

On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 17:21:47 +0000, Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
As has been pointed out ad nauseam, a simple bypass test will show whether
an amplifier audible colours the sound (nothing to do with measurements).
You can even use a real speaker load, if you have through-wall cabling and
good sound insulation.

Speakers colour the sound a good deal more than any electronic item in
the signal chain, then you've got the interaction between the amplifier
(that'd like to see an ideal load) and the speaker (which is never an
ideal load).

"Real speaker load"? What's that, a Klipschorn, a Quad, a Polk,
a Bose? The load on the amplifier affects its distortion
characteristics, that's been known for 60 years at least.

Source material isn't sterile, it's usually EQ'd before it's
recorded, and it's heavily influenced by selection of
microphones (there's a discission that could on forever),
the tube (heh, heh) that's in the microphone (find a studio worth
its salt that doesn't have a tube mic, or a whole vault
of tube mics, I dare you), the position of the mics, and
mixing. Then it gets burned into a CD (whole 'nother argument).
So we're talking about an amp modifying source material
that's not "virgin" to begin with.

If I could assume clinically sterile source material and
predictible, constant speaker loads, then I'd buy your arguments
(or course, you're going to keep on arguing, anyway)
and your blind A/B comparisons. But such things don't exist.

Let's put it this way, if tubes weren't around, I think
Klipsch would've disappeared years ago. Have you tried
listening to a Klipsch with a transistor amp? Ick, IMNSHO.

--
Ned Carlson Triode Electronics Chicago,IL USA
www.triodeelectronics.com

"Ned Carlson" wrote in message
news
snnnnnnnnnnnnip.

| Let's put it this way, if tubes weren't around, I think
| Klipsch would've disappeared years ago. Have you tried
| listening to a Klipsch with a transistor amp? Ick, IMNSHO.
|
| --
| Ned Carlson Triode Electronics Chicago,IL USA
| www.triodeelectronics.com
|
|
|

I did;
MF A1 DIY version-modified
JLH 10 watter
tweaked Hafler DH200
some local fabricated EI 2x70W (modified) amp.
they all played very nice ,unlike many others (both-Tube sheeeeeet and Solid
sheeeeeeet).......
yep-with efficient spks no two amps play the same

--
--
.................................................. ........................
Choky
Prodanovic Aleksandar
YU

"don't use force, "don't use force,
use a larger hammer" use a larger tube
- Choky and IST"
- ZM
.................................................. ...........................

in article , Stewart Pinkerton at
wrote on 2/7/05 12:27 PM:

On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 12:06:18 +0100, "Yves"
wrote:

"Ian Iveson" a écrit dans le message de
news: ...
"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote

Besides, I don't 'bash' *good* tube amps, just the ones which sound
different from the input signal.

What does the input signal sound like? I use amplifiers and speakers
because I can't hear it on its own.

Perhaps you mean *measure* like?

Interresting idea !
I can't imagine wich test setup could be used to compare output vs input of
an amplifier.

In that case, you have a very poor imagination.

All you need is a switch, a suitable dummy speaker load, and an
attenuator of the same value as the gain of the amplifier under test.
Plus of course another high quality power amp.

Switch between the direct input signal, and the attenuated output from
the amplifier under test, which should be the same amplitude within
+/- 0.1dB. If you can hear a difference, then the amp under test is
audibly modifying the input signal.


* * * *


OK Pinkie, you promised that you would design a SS amp to compare, contrast,
and compete with a tubed design. February was the time frame you cited,
IIRC.

We have a saying in this country (which I think might actually have had its
origin in the Isles): "It's time to sh*! Or get off the pot . . . . "

Cheers and get working,

Jon

On 9 Feb 2005 01:44:03 -0600, "Ned Carlson"
wrote:

On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 17:21:47 +0000, Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
As has been pointed out ad nauseam, a simple bypass test will show whether
an amplifier audible colours the sound (nothing to do with measurements).
You can even use a real speaker load, if you have through-wall cabling and
good sound insulation.

Speakers colour the sound a good deal more than any electronic item in
the signal chain, then you've got the interaction between the amplifier
(that'd like to see an ideal load) and the speaker (which is never an
ideal load).

Yes, so what? Use headphones if you like - but make sure the amp is
still decently loaded.

"Real speaker load"? What's that, a Klipschorn, a Quad, a Polk,
a Bose? The load on the amplifier affects its distortion
characteristics, that's been known for 60 years at least.

Sure, but not *audibly*, for a good SS amp.

Source material isn't sterile, it's usually EQ'd before it's
recorded, and it's heavily influenced by selection of
microphones (there's a discission that could on forever),
the tube (heh, heh) that's in the microphone (find a studio worth
its salt that doesn't have a tube mic, or a whole vault
of tube mics, I dare you), the position of the mics, and
mixing. Then it gets burned into a CD (whole 'nother argument).
So we're talking about an amp modifying source material
that's not "virgin" to begin with.

So what? The source material will still have a particular sound, which
may or may not be modified by the amplifier. It doesn't really matter
what the source is, it's the *additional* colouration you're listening
for. Use a live mic feed if you like.

If I could assume clinically sterile source material and
predictible, constant speaker loads, then I'd buy your arguments
(or course, you're going to keep on arguing, anyway)
and your blind A/B comparisons. But such things don't exist.

Don't be such a ****, you just use the same source and speakers that
you would use for normal listening, and substitute amplifiers.

Let's put it this way, if tubes weren't around, I think
Klipsch would've disappeared years ago. Have you tried
listening to a Klipsch with a transistor amp? Ick, IMNSHO.

Have you tried listening to a Klipsch with *any* amp? Ick..........
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"Ned Carlson" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 17:21:47 +0000, Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
As has been pointed out ad nauseam, a simple bypass test will show
whether
an amplifier audible colours the sound (nothing to do with measurements).
You can even use a real speaker load, if you have through-wall cabling
and
good sound insulation.

Speakers colour the sound a good deal more than any electronic item in
the signal chain, then you've got the interaction between the amplifier
(that'd like to see an ideal load) and the speaker (which is never an
ideal load).

"Real speaker load"? What's that, a Klipschorn, a Quad, a Polk,
a Bose? The load on the amplifier affects its distortion
characteristics, that's been known for 60 years at least.

Source material isn't sterile, it's usually EQ'd before it's
recorded, and it's heavily influenced by selection of
microphones (there's a discission that could on forever),
the tube (heh, heh) that's in the microphone (find a studio worth
its salt that doesn't have a tube mic, or a whole vault
of tube mics, I dare you), the position of the mics, and
mixing. Then it gets burned into a CD (whole 'nother argument).
So we're talking about an amp modifying source material
that's not "virgin" to begin with.

If I could assume clinically sterile source material and
predictible, constant speaker loads, then I'd buy your arguments
(or course, you're going to keep on arguing, anyway)
and your blind A/B comparisons. But such things don't exist.

Let's put it this way, if tubes weren't around, I think
Klipsch would've disappeared years ago. Have you tried
listening to a Klipsch with a transistor amp? Ick, IMNSHO.

**Why do you (seem to) take the line that: Transistors = bad, Tubes = good?
I've listened to a LOT of Klipsch speakers, over the years. Some sounded
diabolically bad (the Heresy) and some very good (Belles, Forte'). The
Heresys, for instance, sounded just as bad with tubes, as they did with an
SS amp. More seriously, however, I've heard a goodly number of really bad
tube amps, which sounded bad, regardless of which speaker was connected to
them. I've also heard a few really crappy transistor amps, too.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

with (or even without) all respect-Pinky and Trevor behave like idiots or
just they are idiots;

imagine that someone drove 100 KM just to sit in your backyard and say "my
wife is better in bed than your wife ! "



WTF you talk about my wife?



-same ole Choky who make and have and respect both sides of same coin



btw-my coin is shinier than yours!

On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:15:44 +0100, "Choky" wrote:

with (or even without) all respect-Pinky and Trevor behave like idiots or
just they are idiots;

imagine that someone drove 100 KM just to sit in your backyard and say "my
wife is better in bed than your wife ! "

WTF you talk about my wife?

WTF you talking about at all?

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Jon Yaeger wrote:

in article , Stewart Pinkerton at
wrote on 2/7/05 12:27 PM:

On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 12:06:18 +0100, "Yves"
wrote:

"Ian Iveson" a écrit dans le message de
news: ...
"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote

Besides, I don't 'bash' *good* tube amps, just the ones which sound
different from the input signal.

What does the input signal sound like? I use amplifiers and speakers
because I can't hear it on its own.

Perhaps you mean *measure* like?

Interresting idea !
I can't imagine wich test setup could be used to compare output vs input of
an amplifier.

In that case, you have a very poor imagination.

All you need is a switch, a suitable dummy speaker load, and an
attenuator of the same value as the gain of the amplifier under test.
Plus of course another high quality power amp.

Switch between the direct input signal, and the attenuated output from
the amplifier under test, which should be the same amplitude within
+/- 0.1dB. If you can hear a difference, then the amp under test is
audibly modifying the input signal.

* * * *

OK Pinkie, you promised that you would design a SS amp to compare, contrast,
and compete with a tubed design. February was the time frame you cited,
IIRC.

We have a saying in this country (which I think might actually have had its
origin in the Isles): "It's time to sh*! Or get off the pot . . . . "

We say "put up or shut up".

Its origin is unclear, the meaning is clear and unchanged.


Patrick Turner.



Cheers and get working,

Jon

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 05:24:04 +1100, Trevor Wilson wrote:
**Why do you (seem to) take the line that: Transistors = bad, Tubes =
good?

Well, for one thing, I sell tubes. Secondly, I like tubes, and I
like the way tube amps sound. So do lots of folks who know more
about electronics than I ever will.
Thirdly, I think fiddling with tubes and tube amps is fun.
If you're not having fun and enjoying yourself, what's the
point? Turn on the cable or DVD and watch the Three Stooges (the 1930's
ones with Curly are the best IMHO), instead.

I've listened to a LOT of Klipsch speakers, over the years. Some
sounded diabolically bad (the Heresy) and some very good (Belles, Forte').
The Heresys, for instance, sounded just as bad with tubes, as they did
with an SS amp. More seriously, however, I've heard a goodly number of
really bad tube amps, which sounded bad, regardless of which speaker was
connected to them. I've also heard a few really crappy transistor amps,
too.

While I may have been overgeneralizing about Klipsches, you're basically
making my point, which is that speakers and their interaction with
amplifiers is all over the map. And you're only talking about
Klipsches.

--
Ned Carlson Triode Electronics Chicago,IL USA
www.triodeelectronics.com

Choky wrote:

with (or even without) all respect-Pinky and Trevor behave like idiots or
just they are idiots;

imagine that someone drove 100 KM just to sit in your backyard and say "my
wife is better in bed than your wife ! "

WTF you talk about my wife?

-same ole Choky who make and have and respect both sides of same coin

btw-my coin is shinier than yours!

Just watch out that your darling wife doesn't go some hens meeting,
then come home to tell you that she heard one gal say that she had a very good
husband, better than the rest,
and he took her to all the expensive places, and he bought her a better house,
a nice shiny new car, and
he never gets cranky, and he don't drink, isn't fat, and he don't farnarkle
around with audio gear.....

Being good in bed doesn't mean much to the ladies' minds; they are thinking
more horrible thoughts......

But BTW, wives whose husbands do have tube gear can often tell
if the husband changes the amp to SS. even if she's sitting on the loo
up the halway. I know a couple like that.......

No need for me to argue here much about it at all.

Patrick Turner.

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
| On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:15:44 +0100, "Choky" wrote:
|
| with (or even without) all respect-Pinky and Trevor behave like idiots or
| just they are idiots;
|
| imagine that someone drove 100 KM just to sit in your backyard and say
"my
| wife is better in bed than your wife ! "
|
| WTF you talk about my wife?
|
| WTF you talking about at all?
|
| --
|
| Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

I already know that your brain is frozen
ie-in must worse shape than my English writing

go to RAO and stay there arguing with similar sort of old farts .

for tube audio- Verve is conditio sine qua non ;
as for every other aspect of audio as hobby , even as profession.

without Verve -you are just employee.
this news group have clear and straight title
RAtubes is for ppl with verve for audio engineering,primary with tubes.
if you (or anybody else) can't respect this attitude,you are just idiot or
you are person with serious social problems.


--
--
.................................................. ........................
Choky
Prodanovic Aleksandar
YU

"don't use force, "don't use force,
use a larger hammer" use a larger tube
- Choky and IST"
- ZM
.................................................. ...........................

"Choky" wrote in message ...

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...

I already know that your brain is frozen
...

WTF I want to know about is...why you all still replying. I plonked the
thread long ago, couldn't be happier. Unfortunately this has skewed off and
once again must be killfiled.

Tim

--
"I've got more trophies than Wayne Gretsky and the Pope combined!"
- Homer Simpson
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:25:34 +0100, "Choky" wrote:

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
.. .
| On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:15:44 +0100, "Choky" wrote:
|
| with (or even without) all respect-Pinky and Trevor behave like idiots or
| just they are idiots;
|
| imagine that someone drove 100 KM just to sit in your backyard and say
"my
| wife is better in bed than your wife ! "
|
| WTF you talk about my wife?
|
| WTF you talking about at all?

I already know that your brain is frozen
ie-in must worse shape than my English writing

Choky, you're a clown. You've always been a clown, and that seems
unlikely to change. You certainly don't do the tube 'cause' any
favours..................

for tube audio- Verve is conditio sine qua non ;
as for every other aspect of audio as hobby , even as profession.

without Verve -you are just employee.

WTF are you talking about *now*?

this news group have clear and straight title
RAtubes is for ppl with verve for audio engineering,primary with tubes.
if you (or anybody else) can't respect this attitude,you are just idiot or
you are person with serious social problems.

As noted - I didn't start this thread, indeed I have said several
times that this isn't a good forum for such threads. However, when the
tubies start making false statements, they will naturally be rebutted.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:59:50 +1100, Patrick Turner
wrote:

Jon Yaeger wrote:

OK Pinkie, you promised that you would design a SS amp to compare, contrast,
and compete with a tubed design. February was the time frame you cited,
IIRC.

Your memory is incorrect in several respects. However, I have a paper
design for KISASS, which is a simple SS design with no global
feedback, operating in Class A and providing less than ten watts
maximum output into loads between 4 and 8 ohms, with a predominantly
single-ended transfer function. While it may 'compare and contrast'
with KISS, no 'competition' is involved, since there are far more
linear ways to design an amplifier of this complexity - to wit, the
classic John Linsley-Hood design.

We have a saying in this country (which I think might actually have had its
origin in the Isles): "It's time to sh*! Or get off the pot . . . . "

The paper design is complete, but since on reflection I consider this
to be a particularly pointless exercise, I'll leave it to someone else
to build it, if anyone is sufficiently interested. BTW, I note that
you're not giving Andre a hard time for not having posted any more
details of KISS. Sauce for the goose.....................

We say "put up or shut up".

Its origin is unclear, the meaning is clear and unchanged.

Indeed. Anyone have a preference for where I should post the paper
design?

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"Ned Carlson" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 05:24:04 +1100, Trevor Wilson wrote:
**Why do you (seem to) take the line that: Transistors = bad, Tubes =
good?

Well, for one thing, I sell tubes.

**Nothing wrong with that.

Secondly, I like tubes, and I
like the way tube amps sound. So do lots of folks who know more
about electronics than I ever will.

**Are you so deluded that you think that ALL tube amps are good? You are, of
course, well aware that many tube amps distort the signal? Those amps have
no place in a hi fi system. Ditto for the SS amps which distort. IME, really
GOOD tube amps are impossible to distinguish between really GOOD SS amps. It
is only the bad amps (in each technology) which can easily be detected.

BTW: I have the balls to actually have performed some blind tests between
highly rated tube and SS amps. I incorrectly picked a tube amp in preference
to a SS amp on more than one instance. Have you the balls to perform such a
test?

Thirdly, I think fiddling with tubes and tube amps is fun.

**I have no issue with that. What I have issue with is making the stupid
statement that SS = Bad and tube = good.

If you're not having fun and enjoying yourself, what's the
point?

**Indeed. Again, I have no issue with fun and experimentation. What I take
issue with is the obvious nonsensical lie: SS = bad, tubes = good.

Turn on the cable or DVD and watch the Three Stooges (the 1930's
ones with Curly are the best IMHO), instead.

I've listened to a LOT of Klipsch speakers, over the years. Some
sounded diabolically bad (the Heresy) and some very good (Belles,
Forte').
The Heresys, for instance, sounded just as bad with tubes, as they did
with an SS amp. More seriously, however, I've heard a goodly number of
really bad tube amps, which sounded bad, regardless of which speaker was
connected to them. I've also heard a few really crappy transistor amps,
too.

While I may have been overgeneralizing about Klipsches, you're basically
making my point, which is that speakers and their interaction with
amplifiers is all over the map. And you're only talking about
Klipsches.

**No, I'm not. Points:

* I always judge a speaker on an amplifier which acts as a 'pure Voltage
source'. One with inaudible levels of noise and distortion and a linear
frequency response. After doing so, it may be decided that lesser amplifier
may be usable on a particular speaker.
* Klipsch speaker demonstrate a generally benign load impedance and can be
used with most decent tube amps without problem.
* The Heresy is a spectacularly bad product. As I stated before, I worked
for the importer. That importer ended giving the things away to La Scala
purchasers, because no one else wanted to buy them.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

Stewart Pinkerton said:

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:59:50 +1100, Patrick Turner
wrote:

Jon Yaeger wrote:

OK Pinkie, you promised that you would design a SS amp to compare, contrast,
and compete with a tubed design. February was the time frame you cited,
IIRC.

Your memory is incorrect in several respects. However, I have a paper
design for KISASS, which is a simple SS design with no global
feedback, operating in Class A and providing less than ten watts
maximum output into loads between 4 and 8 ohms, with a predominantly
single-ended transfer function. While it may 'compare and contrast'
with KISS, no 'competition' is involved, since there are far more
linear ways to design an amplifier of this complexity - to wit, the
classic John Linsley-Hood design.

We have a saying in this country (which I think might actually have had its
origin in the Isles): "It's time to sh*! Or get off the pot . . . . "

The paper design is complete, but since on reflection I consider this
to be a particularly pointless exercise, I'll leave it to someone else
to build it, if anyone is sufficiently interested. BTW, I note that
you're not giving Andre a hard time for not having posted any more
details of KISS. Sauce for the goose.....................

We say "put up or shut up".

Its origin is unclear, the meaning is clear and unchanged.

Indeed. Anyone have a preference for where I should post the paper
design?


He
http://www.imageshack.us/

Just post the link here and I'll probably build it when our move is
done.

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

I'm speechless............

you really have problems with ppl
--
--
.................................................. ........................
Choky
Prodanovic Aleksandar
YU

"don't use force, "don't use force,
use a larger hammer" use a larger tube
- Choky and IST"
- ZM
.................................................. ...........................


"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
| On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:25:34 +0100, "Choky" wrote:
|
| "Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
| .. .
| | On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:15:44 +0100, "Choky" wrote:
| |
| | with (or even without) all respect-Pinky and Trevor behave like idiots
or
| | just they are idiots;
| |
| | imagine that someone drove 100 KM just to sit in your backyard and say
| "my
| | wife is better in bed than your wife ! "
| |
| | WTF you talk about my wife?
| |
| | WTF you talking about at all?
|
| I already know that your brain is frozen
| ie-in must worse shape than my English writing
|
| Choky, you're a clown. You've always been a clown, and that seems
| unlikely to change. You certainly don't do the tube 'cause' any
| favours..................
|
| for tube audio- Verve is conditio sine qua non ;
| as for every other aspect of audio as hobby , even as profession.
|
| without Verve -you are just employee.
|
| WTF are you talking about *now*?
|
| this news group have clear and straight title
| RAtubes is for ppl with verve for audio engineering,primary with tubes.
| if you (or anybody else) can't respect this attitude,you are just idiot
or
| you are person with serious social problems.
|
| As noted - I didn't start this thread, indeed I have said several
| times that this isn't a good forum for such threads. However, when the
| tubies start making false statements, they will naturally be rebutted.
| --
|
| Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"Choky" wrote

imagine that someone drove 100 KM just to sit in your backyard and
say "my
wife is better in bed than your wife ! "

Surely a discrete personal approach is better than gossiping to all
and sundry?

WTF you talk about my wife?

Where else is there to go for those who passionately hate valve
audio?

No point in preaching to the converted. Evangelists need sinners.

cheers, Ian

The paper design is complete, but since on reflection I consider this
to be a particularly pointless exercise, I'll leave it to someone else
to build it, if anyone is sufficiently interested. BTW, I note that
you're not giving Andre a hard time for not having posted any more
details of KISS. Sauce for the goose.....................


Why bother with Andre . . . ?

There's 105 dB of "noise" vs. signal in any of his threads. Patrick can
design around him in circles!

- J

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 00:04:08 +0100, "Choky" wrote:

I'm speechless............

If only................

you really have problems with ppl

I'm not the one starting attack threads in this forum, am I?
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


Jon Yaeger wrote:

in article , Stewart Pinkerton
at
wrote on 2/7/05 12:27 PM:

On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 12:06:18 +0100, "Yves"
wrote:

"Ian Iveson" a écrit dans le
message de
news: ...
"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote

Besides, I don't 'bash' *good* tube amps, just the ones which sound
different from the input signal.

What does the input signal sound like? I use amplifiers and speakers
because I can't hear it on its own.

Perhaps you mean *measure* like?

Interresting idea !
I can't imagine wich test setup could be used to compare output vs
input of
an amplifier.

In that case, you have a very poor imagination.

All you need is a switch, a suitable dummy speaker load, and an
attenuator of the same value as the gain of the amplifier under test.
Plus of course another high quality power amp.

Switch between the direct input signal, and the attenuated output from
the amplifier under test, which should be the same amplitude within
+/- 0.1dB. If you can hear a difference, then the amp under test is
audibly modifying the input signal.

* * * *

OK Pinkie, you promised that you would design a SS amp to compare,
contrast,
and compete with a tubed design. February was the time frame you cited,
IIRC.

We have a saying in this country (which I think might actually have had
its
origin in the Isles): "It's time to sh*! Or get off the pot . . . . "

We say "put up or shut up".

Its origin is unclear, the meaning is clear and unchanged.


I think it's something along the lines of "put up your dukes", meanin' fight
or shut up.
-dim

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
: On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 12:06:18 +0100, "Yves"
: wrote:
:
: "Ian Iveson" a écrit dans le message de
: news: ...
: "Stewart Pinkerton" wrote
:
: Besides, I don't 'bash' *good* tube amps, just the ones which sound
: different from the input signal.
:
: What does the input signal sound like? I use amplifiers and speakers
: because I can't hear it on its own.
:
: Perhaps you mean *measure* like?
:
: Interresting idea !
: I can't imagine wich test setup could be used to compare output vs input of
: an amplifier.
:
: In that case, you have a very poor imagination.
:
: All you need is a switch, a suitable dummy speaker load, and an
: attenuator of the same value as the gain of the amplifier under test.
: Plus of course another high quality power amp.
:

You are really serious, aren't you ??
lets have some science here, for a change, mr. Pinkerton!

1. there *is* no direct input signal audible, we have the inputsignal
amplified by the supposedly blameless amplifier driving the speaker
2. the comparison with the amplifier-under-test driving a dummy
load is meaningless: it is the sound pressure as coming from the
speaker driven by the amp-under-test that matters

these two points alone completely invalidate your 'methodology' !!

nice try,
better luck next time,
Rudy

: Switch between the direct input signal, and the attenuated output from
: the amplifier under test, which should be the same amplitude within
: +/- 0.1dB. If you can hear a difference, then the amp under test is
: audibly modifying the input signal.
: --
:
: Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:48:25 +0100, "Ruud Broens"
wrote:

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
.. .
: On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 12:06:18 +0100, "Yves"
: wrote:
:
: "Ian Iveson" a écrit dans le message de
: news: ...
: "Stewart Pinkerton" wrote
:
: Besides, I don't 'bash' *good* tube amps, just the ones which sound
: different from the input signal.
:
: What does the input signal sound like? I use amplifiers and speakers
: because I can't hear it on its own.
:
: Perhaps you mean *measure* like?
:
: Interresting idea !
: I can't imagine wich test setup could be used to compare output vs input of
: an amplifier.
:
: In that case, you have a very poor imagination.
:
: All you need is a switch, a suitable dummy speaker load, and an
: attenuator of the same value as the gain of the amplifier under test.
: Plus of course another high quality power amp.
:

You are really serious, aren't you ??

Always! :-)

lets have some science here, for a change, mr. Pinkerton!

For a change? That's fightin' talk, dude!

1. there *is* no direct input signal audible, we have the inputsignal
amplified by the supposedly blameless amplifier driving the speaker

There is such a signal audible, if we amplify it.

2. the comparison with the amplifier-under-test driving a dummy
load is meaningless: it is the sound pressure as coming from the
speaker driven by the amp-under-test that matters

Which can be simulated by the bypass test. Note that I've already
stated that the 'dummy load' can be a real speaker, in which case you
just need a second pair of speakers hidden away in another room.

these two points alone completely invalidate your 'methodology' !!

No, not really. Why are you guys so afraid of any kind of apples vs
apples comparison? Let me guess........................

nice try,
better luck next time,
Rudy

Luck is not a requirement!

: Switch between the direct input signal, and the attenuated output from
: the amplifier under test, which should be the same amplitude within
: +/- 0.1dB. If you can hear a difference, then the amp under test is
: audibly modifying the input signal.

Please explain why this simple test is a problem for you.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
: On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:48:25 +0100, "Ruud Broens"
: wrote:
: :
: : All you need is a switch, a suitable dummy speaker load, and an
: : attenuator of the same value as the gain of the amplifier under test.
: : Plus of course another high quality power amp.
: :
:
: You are really serious, aren't you ??
:
: Always! :-)
:
: lets have some science here, for a change, mr. Pinkerton!
:
: For a change? That's fightin' talk, dude!
:
: 1. there *is* no direct input signal audible, we have the inputsignal
: amplified by the supposedly blameless amplifier driving the speaker
:
: There is such a signal audible, if we amplify it.

You're sure ? Naah, it's the 'blameless' reference amp - loudspeaker
combination we hear...sorry, thought you had gathered that, *by now* :-)
Rudy


:
: 2. the comparison with the amplifier-under-test driving a dummy
: load is meaningless: it is the sound pressure as coming from the
: speaker driven by the amp-under-test that matters
:
: Which can be simulated by the bypass test. Note that I've already
: stated that the 'dummy load' can be a real speaker, in which case you
: just need a second pair of speakers hidden away in another room.
:
: these two points alone completely invalidate your 'methodology' !!
:
: No, not really. Why are you guys so afraid of any kind of apples vs
: apples comparison? Let me guess........................
:
: nice try,
: better luck next time,
: Rudy
:
: Luck is not a requirement!
:
: : Switch between the direct input signal, and the attenuated output from
: : the amplifier under test, which should be the same amplitude within
: : +/- 0.1dB. If you can hear a difference, then the amp under test is
: : audibly modifying the input signal.
:
: Please explain why this simple test is a problem for you. * see above *
: --
:
: Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
snip
As noted - I didn't start this thread, indeed I have said several
times that this isn't a good forum for such threads. However, when the
tubies start making false statements, they will naturally be rebutted.

Why? What does anyone gain (other than harmless venting of some non - audio
related frustrations - which may be cause enough)? You're not one of those
folks who argue with loons in the street, are you?
-dim (who can follow schitzo's verbiage better than most... And darn proud
of it.)
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


Choky wrote:

with (or even without) all respect-Pinky and Trevor behave like idiots
or
just they are idiots;

imagine that someone drove 100 KM just to sit in your backyard and say
"my
wife is better in bed than your wife ! "

WTF you talk about my wife?

-same ole Choky who make and have and respect both sides of same coin

btw-my coin is shinier than yours!

Just watch out that your darling wife doesn't go some hens meeting,
then come home to tell you that she heard one gal say that she had a very
good
husband, better than the rest,
and he took her to all the expensive places, and he bought her a better
house,
a nice shiny new car, and
he never gets cranky, and he don't drink, isn't fat, and he don't
farnarkle
around with audio gear.....

Being good in bed doesn't mean much to the ladies' minds; they are
thinking
more horrible thoughts......

But BTW, wives whose husbands do have tube gear can often tell
if the husband changes the amp to SS. even if she's sitting on the loo
up the halway. I know a couple like that.......

No need for me to argue here much about it at all.

Patrick Turner.


It's my dumpster-diving my GF had to get used to... She is, now, to an
extent ... she got a bit irked last night when I jumped into a dumpster,
flipped a bathtub off a Vespa scooter (now running), and asked a passing guy
for a hand lowering the thing out of the dumpster... I guess I could see
her point. Scavenger cultcha' - I couldn't care less for the finished
product. That's why I'm a proud owner of things like a digital to analog
(with 35mm film head) converter. Cool thing, had to be saved & brought up
to snuff... And that silly radar spectrum analyzer, before I ever ventured
into the GHz territory...
-dim
-dim

"shiva" wrote in message news:M3SPd.26321$t46.4536@trndny04...
: It's my dumpster-diving my GF had to get used to... She is, now, to an
: extent ... she got a bit irked last night when I jumped into a dumpster,
: flipped a bathtub off a Vespa scooter (now running), and asked a passing guy
: for a hand lowering the thing out of the dumpster... I guess I could see
: her point. Scavenger cultcha' - I couldn't care less for the finished
: product. That's why I'm a proud owner of things like a digital to analog
: (with 35mm film head) converter. Cool thing, had to be saved & brought up
: to snuff... And that silly radar spectrum analyzer, before I ever ventured
: into the GHz territory...
: -dim

cool. you seem to have gathered enough weird stuff for a dim-museum
some day :-)
Rudy