[sortech]

I just got an amp with rusty power and output transformers. I have
noticed that people buy amps like this on E-bay. Does the rust short the
laminations? would spraying with liquid wrench damage the transformers?
How about rustolium paint? Any advice would be appreciated.

[Phil Allison[_3_]]

"sortech"

I just got an amp with rusty power and output transformers. I have noticed
that people buy amps like this on E-bay. Does the rust short the
laminations?

** No.

would spraying with liquid wrench damage the transformers?


** What you need is a stiff wire brush, stroked along the line of the lams
until nothing more comes off.

Then some rust treatment like WD40 or the stuff you mentioned.

After 48 hours clean it off thorougly.

Then brush with gloss, black enamel paint.



...... Phl

[Raymond Koonce]

sortech wrote:
I just got an amp with rusty power and output transformers. I have
noticed that people buy amps like this on E-bay. Does the rust short the
laminations? would spraying with liquid wrench damage the transformers?
How about rustolium paint? Any advice would be appreciated.

I've found that a good sanding/wire brushing to remove the rust and then
several coats of black "Sharpie" permanent marker looks very nice.

Raymond

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Fri, 26 Jun 2009 07:43:10 -0500, Raymond Koonce
wrote:

sortech wrote:
I just got an amp with rusty power and output transformers. I have
noticed that people buy amps like this on E-bay. Does the rust short the
laminations? would spraying with liquid wrench damage the transformers?
How about rustolium paint? Any advice would be appreciated.

I've found that a good sanding/wire brushing to remove the rust and then
several coats of black "Sharpie" permanent marker looks very nice.

Raymond

Hammerite is the stuff to use. Gives the right vintage look too.

d

[PeterD]

On Fri, 26 Jun 2009 00:02:59 -0600, sortech wrote:

I just got an amp with rusty power and output transformers. I have
noticed that people buy amps like this on E-bay. Does the rust short the
laminations?

No.

would spraying with liquid wrench damage the transformers?

Might, I'd not recommend any solvent on a transformer.

How about rustolium paint?

Sure, if that turns you on. Wipe off any rust, or clean it well
without allowing solvent into the laminations.

Any advice would be appreciated.

[Sal]

I restored a Dynaco ST-70 for a customer last year, transformers were a
rusty mess. I took the transformers off the chassis, sanded the end
bells and laminate core, gave them 2 coats of primer and 2 coats of
semi-gloss black.

The before photo is http://www.tuberadios.com/dynaco-st70/st70notnice1.jpg

and the after picture is http://www.tuberadios.com/dynaco-st70/st70nice.jpg

Sal

[Engineer[_2_]]

On Jun 26, 5:52*pm, Sal wrote:
I restored a Dynaco ST-70 for a customer last year, transformers were a
rusty mess. I took the transformers off the chassis, sanded the end
bells and laminate core, gave them 2 coats of primer and 2 coats of
semi-gloss black.

The before photo is *http://www.tuberadios.com/dynaco-st70/st70notnice1..jpg

and the after picture ishttp://www.tuberadios.com/dynaco-st70/st70nice.jpg

Sal

Very nice, Sal... like new!
I would just add, wire brush or and/or steel wool. No solvents, just
paint. I use "Painters Choice" and "Rustoleum" brands from Home Depot
(in pressure cans), semi-gloss for lams, gloss for bells.
BTW, as ugly as rust is, any rusty electrical path is of too high
resistance to allow significant eddy currents in the core.
Cheers,
Roger

[Sal]

Thanks Roger,
I used Rustoleum primer and Rustoleum Semi-Gloss paint on the core and
end bells, all painted separately.

I lightly sanded the laminates just to remove the loose rust, the end
bells, I took all the old paint off with sandpaper.

Regards,
Sal



Engineer wrote:
On Jun 26, 5:52 pm, Sal wrote:
I restored a Dynaco ST-70 for a customer last year, transformers were a
rusty mess. I took the transformers off the chassis, sanded the end
bells and laminate core, gave them 2 coats of primer and 2 coats of
semi-gloss black.

The before photo is http://www.tuberadios.com/dynaco-st70/st70notnice1.jpg

and the after picture ishttp://www.tuberadios.com/dynaco-st70/st70nice.jpg

Sal

Very nice, Sal... like new!
I would just add, wire brush or and/or steel wool. No solvents, just
paint. I use "Painters Choice" and "Rustoleum" brands from Home Depot
(in pressure cans), semi-gloss for lams, gloss for bells.
BTW, as ugly as rust is, any rusty electrical path is of too high
resistance to allow significant eddy currents in the core.
Cheers,
Roger

[Patrick Turner]

Phil Allison wrote:

"sortech"

I just got an amp with rusty power and output transformers. I have noticed
that people buy amps like this on E-bay. Does the rust short the
laminations?

** No.

would spraying with liquid wrench damage the transformers?

** What you need is a stiff wire brush, stroked along the line of the lams
until nothing more comes off.

Then some rust treatment like WD40 or the stuff you mentioned.

After 48 hours clean it off thorougly.

Then brush with gloss, black enamel paint.

..... Phl

All that advice is fine Phil.

WD40 might stop paint from adhering though.

But what caused the rust?

Water, no?

The OPT could still be damp inside so it would be wise to warm up the
amp to say 50C in an oven then place in a vacuum chamber so that most
moisture trapped inside will then boil off and be sucked away by the
vacuum pump.

I always would have grave doubts about old amps that may have been in
flooded premises. There must have been dozens of amps flooded in New
Orleans by Katrina. Maybe they sound well with Blues music.

Are the trannies varnished or waxed? if varnished, their resistance to
moisture effects is better than if only waxed. If the OPT has been
waxed, maybe immersing in a vat of molten wax at 110C for 4 hours will
drive out water.

But wax stops paint adhering, so after wax soaking the OPT should be
left to drain and then the external surfaces should be cleaned with a
solvent to remove wax, so the paint will stick on.

Its all a painful bother, and just one reason I have never ever bought
anything on E-bay.

Patrick Turner.

[Phil Allison[_3_]]

"Patrick Turner"
Phil Allison wrote:

"sortech"

I just got an amp with rusty power and output transformers. I have
noticed
that people buy amps like this on E-bay. Does the rust short the
laminations?

** No.

would spraying with liquid wrench damage the transformers?

** What you need is a stiff wire brush, stroked along the line of the
lams
until nothing more comes off.

Then some rust treatment like WD40 or the stuff you mentioned.

After 48 hours clean it off thorougly.

Then brush with gloss, black enamel paint.


All that advice is fine Phil.

WD40 might stop paint from adhering though.



** I did say to " clean it off thoroughly " !!!!

A rag dipped in turps is the way to do that.

Worked for me....



...... Phil

[Patrick Turner]

Phil Allison wrote:

"Patrick Turner"
Phil Allison wrote:

"sortech"

I just got an amp with rusty power and output transformers. I have
noticed
that people buy amps like this on E-bay. Does the rust short the
laminations?

** No.

would spraying with liquid wrench damage the transformers?

** What you need is a stiff wire brush, stroked along the line of the
lams
until nothing more comes off.

Then some rust treatment like WD40 or the stuff you mentioned.

After 48 hours clean it off thorougly.

Then brush with gloss, black enamel paint.


All that advice is fine Phil.

WD40 might stop paint from adhering though.

** I did say to " clean it off thoroughly " !!!!

A rag dipped in turps is the way to do that.

Worked for me....

..... Phil

Indeed many tricks are done with rags dipped in turps.....

But who here would ever think of it....

I did once pick up a Geloso 17W musicians wedding amp, or "brick" amp at
as rubbish tip moments before a bulldozer would have run right over it.
It had an arcing OPT with only 320Vdc. The arc was from wires outside
the winding and after cleaning all the wax and carbon build up and doing
slight wire relocation and re-waxing, the amp has been going well for
many years. I also re-designed and re-wired it, and many little faults
were fixed. Luckily the OPT and PT were not soaking wet. I sold it to a
guy who had another Geloso and he wanted to have a pair.

Patrick Turner.

[Engineer[_2_]]

On Jun 28, 7:33*am, Patrick Turner wrote:
Phil Allison wrote:

"sortech"

I just got an amp with rusty power and output transformers. I have noticed
that people buy amps like this on E-bay. Does the rust short the
laminations?

** *No.

would spraying with liquid wrench damage the transformers?

** What you need is a stiff wire brush, stroked along the line of the lams
until nothing more comes off.

*Then some rust treatment like WD40 or the stuff you mentioned.

*After 48 hours clean it off thorougly.

*Then brush with gloss, black enamel paint.

..... * Phl

All that advice is fine Phil.

WD40 might stop paint from adhering though.

But what caused the rust?

Water, no?

The OPT could still be damp inside so it would be wise to warm up the
amp to say 50C in an oven then place in a vacuum chamber so that most
moisture trapped inside will then boil off and be sucked away by the
vacuum pump.

I always would have grave doubts about old amps that may have been in
flooded premises. There must have been dozens of amps flooded in New
Orleans by Katrina. Maybe they sound well with Blues music.

Are the trannies varnished or waxed? if varnished, their resistance to
moisture effects is better than if only waxed. If the OPT has been
waxed, maybe immersing in a vat of molten wax at 110C for 4 hours will
drive out water.

But wax stops paint adhering, so after wax soaking the OPT should be
left to drain and then the external surfaces should be cleaned with a
solvent to remove wax, so the paint will stick on.

Its all a painful bother, and just one reason I have never ever bought
anything on E-bay.

Patrick Turner.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

An idea about drying out an MT... one might power up the transformer
with all secondaries shorted out at VERY low voltage (use a variac
with current measurement plus a filament transformer, the 6.3 or 12.6
VAC sec. to mains primary winding.) Calculate the watts input and keep
it low, say 10 to 15 watts. Let the transformer warm up for several
hours until certainly dry. Might also work for an OPT... shoet speaker
secondaries and power the P-P primay.
Disclaimer: I've never done this with any transformer - outside
temperature will lag power input, so could burn out windings with
exterior still cold - watch all currents, power and resultant heating
like a hawk!
Of course, if there are enough iron losses just power it up off-load
and wait until it dries out... I have done this!
Cheers,
Roger

[Jon Yaeger]

in article , Phil Allison at
wrote on 6/28/09 7:41 AM:


"Patrick Turner"
Phil Allison wrote:

"sortech"

I just got an amp with rusty power and output transformers. I have
noticed
that people buy amps like this on E-bay. Does the rust short the
laminations?

** No.

would spraying with liquid wrench damage the transformers?

** What you need is a stiff wire brush, stroked along the line of the
lams
until nothing more comes off.

Then some rust treatment like WD40 or the stuff you mentioned.

After 48 hours clean it off thorougly.

Then brush with gloss, black enamel paint.


All that advice is fine Phil.

WD40 might stop paint from adhering though.



** I did say to " clean it off thoroughly " !!!!

A rag dipped in turps is the way to do that.

Worked for me....



..... Phil



WD40 migrates and gets into all of the nooks and crannies.

I certainly wouldn't use it on a rust transformer, and especially if I was
going to paint it.

If you are lucky, the compound will become part of the paint. If not,
you've got a mess.

[Dr. Barry L. Ornitz]

"Jon Yaeger" wrote in message
...
in article , Phil Allison at
wrote on 6/28/09 7:41 AM:

"Patrick Turner"
Phil Allison wrote:

"sortech"

I just got an amp with rusty power and output transformers. I have
noticed
that people buy amps like this on E-bay. Does the rust short the
laminations?

** No.

would spraying with liquid wrench damage the transformers?

** What you need is a stiff wire brush, stroked along the line of
the
lams
until nothing more comes off.

Then some rust treatment like WD40 or the stuff you mentioned.

After 48 hours clean it off thorougly.

Then brush with gloss, black enamel paint.


All that advice is fine Phil.

WD40 might stop paint from adhering though.



** I did say to " clean it off thoroughly " !!!!

A rag dipped in turps is the way to do that.

Worked for me....



..... Phil



WD40 migrates and gets into all of the nooks and crannies.

I certainly wouldn't use it on a rust transformer, and especially if I
was
going to paint it.

If you are lucky, the compound will become part of the paint. If not,
you've got a mess.

Chemically, the major component in WD-40 is Stoddard Solvent. Other
names for this include mineral spirits, solvent naphtha, aliphatic
petroleum distillate, and PAINT THINNER. If the paint to be applied is
alkyd or oil-based paint, there should be little problem. However, WD-40
does contain around 30 to 35 percent of "solvent dewaxed heavy paraffinic
petroleum distillates" or lubricating oil. Since this is not a drying
oil like linseed or tung oil, it may leave the paint slightly sticky or
it may delay the drying of the paint. [Technically oil based paints do
not dry, but react with oxygen in the air to cross link and polymerize.
Drying oils have carbon-carbon double bonds that allow this to happen.]
Wiping the transformer off with a rag soaked in paint thinner or naphtha
is all that is needed to remove the lubricating oil before painting.

As for rust, one of the classic books on transformer design in my library
notes that allowing the laminations to rust slightly can take the place
of insulating the laminations from each other. This was common practice
in many inexpensive transformers in early years.

One negative thing about painting a transformer is a slight reduction in
the heat dissipation of the unit. Transformer life is halved for every 8
°C rise in temperature. The maximum service temperature of a transformer
should be less than 60 °C for good engineering design. If you can touch
the transformer laminations and keep your fingers in contact, then the
transformer is not running too hot.

73, Barry WA4VZQ

[Phil Allison[_3_]]

"Dr. Barry L. Ornitz"
Phil Allison wrote:


** What you need is a stiff wire brush, stroked along the line of the
lams until no more comes off.

Then some rust treatment like WD40 or the stuff you mentioned.

After 48 hours clean it off thorougly.

Then brush with gloss, black enamel paint.



Chemically, the major component in WD-40 is Stoddard Solvent. Other names
for this include mineral spirits, solvent naphtha, aliphatic petroleum
distillate, and PAINT THINNER.


** You fail to realsise that ALL the volatile parts of WD40 soon evaporate
from a surface.


If the paint to be applied is alkyd or oil-based paint, there should be
little problem.

** There simply is no " thinner " there when you paint.


However, WD-40 does contain around 30 to 35 percent of "solvent dewaxed
heavy paraffinic petroleum distillates" or lubricating oil.


** See my instruction the "thoroughly clean" the surface ??


Since this is not a drying oil like linseed or tung oil, it may leave the
paint slightly sticky or it may delay the drying of the paint.


** See my instruction the "thoroughly clean" the surface ??


Wiping the transformer off with a rag soaked in paint thinner or naphtha
is all that is needed to remove the lubricating oil before painting.

** Ah - now he sees it !!!!


One negative thing about painting a transformer is a slight reduction in
the heat dissipation of the unit.


** Not one tiny bit likely.

A black surface radiates heat far better than other colours and convection
cooling is not affected by a thin layer of enamel paint.

BTW

In Australia " paint thinner " = acetone.

And "mineral spirits" = White Spirits.



...... Phil

[GregS[_3_]]

In article , "Dr. Barry L. Ornitz" wrote:
"Jon Yaeger" wrote in message
...
in article , Phil Allison at
wrote on 6/28/09 7:41 AM:

"Patrick Turner"
Phil Allison wrote:

"sortech"

I just got an amp with rusty power and output transformers. I have
noticed
that people buy amps like this on E-bay. Does the rust short the
laminations?

** No.

would spraying with liquid wrench damage the transformers?

** What you need is a stiff wire brush, stroked along the line of
the
lams
until nothing more comes off.

Then some rust treatment like WD40 or the stuff you mentioned.

After 48 hours clean it off thorougly.

Then brush with gloss, black enamel paint.


All that advice is fine Phil.

WD40 might stop paint from adhering though.



** I did say to " clean it off thoroughly " !!!!

A rag dipped in turps is the way to do that.

Worked for me....



..... Phil



WD40 migrates and gets into all of the nooks and crannies.

I certainly wouldn't use it on a rust transformer, and especially if I
was
going to paint it.

If you are lucky, the compound will become part of the paint. If not,
you've got a mess.

Chemically, the major component in WD-40 is Stoddard Solvent. Other
names for this include mineral spirits, solvent naphtha, aliphatic
petroleum distillate, and PAINT THINNER. If the paint to be applied is
alkyd or oil-based paint, there should be little problem. However, WD-40
does contain around 30 to 35 percent of "solvent dewaxed heavy paraffinic
petroleum distillates" or lubricating oil. Since this is not a drying
oil like linseed or tung oil, it may leave the paint slightly sticky or
it may delay the drying of the paint. [Technically oil based paints do
not dry, but react with oxygen in the air to cross link and polymerize.
Drying oils have carbon-carbon double bonds that allow this to happen.]
Wiping the transformer off with a rag soaked in paint thinner or naphtha
is all that is needed to remove the lubricating oil before painting.

As for rust, one of the classic books on transformer design in my library
notes that allowing the laminations to rust slightly can take the place
of insulating the laminations from each other. This was common practice
in many inexpensive transformers in early years.

One negative thing about painting a transformer is a slight reduction in
the heat dissipation of the unit. Transformer life is halved for every 8
°C rise in temperature. The maximum service temperature of a transformer
should be less than 60 °C for good engineering design. If you can touch
the transformer laminations and keep your fingers in contact, then the
transformer is not running too hot.

73, Barry WA4VZQ

The question arises, what is one trying to accomplish. You could use a very
small amount of paint with a whole lot of mineral spirits, and that would also try
to seep into the laminates and dry. Then progressively use thicker coatings.
With no need to oil it up, why bother, except for a quick fix.

I only redid one transformer in my life, and I used Shellac to coat the laminations.
I don't think thats good stuff. Seems like Shellac absorbs moisture
from what I have seen.

greg

[GregS[_3_]]

In article , "Phil Allison" wrote:

"Dr. Barry L. Ornitz"
Phil Allison wrote:


** What you need is a stiff wire brush, stroked along the line of the
lams until no more comes off.

Then some rust treatment like WD40 or the stuff you mentioned.

After 48 hours clean it off thorougly.

Then brush with gloss, black enamel paint.


Any chemical or acid will likely just cause an uneven surface
like the "POR" products.




Chemically, the major component in WD-40 is Stoddard Solvent. Other names
for this include mineral spirits, solvent naphtha, aliphatic petroleum
distillate, and PAINT THINNER.


** You fail to realsise that ALL the volatile parts of WD40 soon evaporate
from a surface.

Seems like the company used to stress drying to a protective film.
I thought the dry film was essentialy, varnish.

Hey you could paint with WD-40 !!


If the paint to be applied is alkyd or oil-based paint, there should be
little problem.

** There simply is no " thinner " there when you paint.


However, WD-40 does contain around 30 to 35 percent of "solvent dewaxed
heavy paraffinic petroleum distillates" or lubricating oil.


** See my instruction the "thoroughly clean" the surface ??


Since this is not a drying oil like linseed or tung oil, it may leave the
paint slightly sticky or it may delay the drying of the paint.


** See my instruction the "thoroughly clean" the surface ??


Wiping the transformer off with a rag soaked in paint thinner or naphtha
is all that is needed to remove the lubricating oil before painting.

** Ah - now he sees it !!!!


One negative thing about painting a transformer is a slight reduction in
the heat dissipation of the unit.


** Not one tiny bit likely.

Makes sense.


A black surface radiates heat far better than other colours and convection
cooling is not affected by a thin layer of enamel paint.

BTW

In Australia " paint thinner " = acetone.

And "mineral spirits" = White Spirits.


I was just using an old can of paint thinner. Under that name in parenthesis
is "mineral spirts" I always thought it did the same, but was not the same.
Perhaps they can charge more money for paint thinner.

Any time I use acetone its gone before I can do anything with it.




...... Phil

[GregS[_3_]]

In article , "Phil Allison" wrote:

"Dr. Barry L. Ornitz"
Phil Allison wrote:


** What you need is a stiff wire brush, stroked along the line of the
lams until no more comes off.

Then some rust treatment like WD40 or the stuff you mentioned.

After 48 hours clean it off thorougly.

Then brush with gloss, black enamel paint.



Chemically, the major component in WD-40 is Stoddard Solvent. Other names
for this include mineral spirits, solvent naphtha, aliphatic petroleum
distillate, and PAINT THINNER.


On my contact cleaner research page, I got an email from a guy saying in
1962 the Navy banned the use of WD-40 on hydrophones because it
contained a small amount of silicone.That would be great for a paint
job !!! Perhaps now the formula has changed. That would be WD-41 !!

greg


** You fail to realsise that ALL the volatile parts of WD40 soon evaporate
from a surface.

[Dr. Barry L. Ornitz]

Rather than re-quote excessive text, let me combine several questions
and answers into one message.

GregS wrote:
The question arises, what is one trying to accomplish. You could
use a very small amount of paint with a whole lot of mineral
spirits, and that would also try to seep into the laminates and
dry. Then progressively use thicker coatings. With no need to oil
it up, why bother, except for a quick fix.

I see no need for any oil either. Even if diluted into a very low
viscosity, oil based paint between the laminations may never dry
completely (*). Oxygen must diffuse through the cured film on the
surface and then must diffuse down the narrow spaces between
laminations. Even the paint thinner will be slow to evaporate as it
has this same torturous path to diffuse through to evaporate. But
when the transformer gets hot in use, the thinner will develop a
considerably higher vapor pressure. It could be high enough to drive
the laminations apart or harm the dried paint film on the surface.

Since slightly rusty laminations do not harm the transformer, the
main reason for painting is cosmetic. If the transformer buzzes,
paint may help. Or you could take the transformer to a motor
rewinding shop and have it vacuum impregnated with an alkyd varnish
that cures (polymerizes) when heated. Glyptal is one such resin, and
it has been around since the late 1920's.

I only redid one transformer in my life, and I used Shellac to coat
the laminations. I don't think thats good stuff. Seems like
Shellac absorbs moisture from what I have seen.

Shellac should work fine. It is a natural resin dissolved in
alcohol. While it does absorb moisture, this should not be much of a
problem with transformers. It can be a problem with wood finishes.

** You fail to realsise that ALL the volatile parts of WD40 soon
evaporate from a surface.

Early formulations of WD-40 had less lubricating oil than do today's
versions. They would soon evaporate, usually within a few days. WD-
40 today contains much more lubricating oil, and it has a higher
molecular weight. This evaporates slowly after the Stoddard solvent
is gone. But its useful lifetime is now months instead of days.

Seems like the company used to stress drying to a protective film.
I thought the dry film was essentialy, varnish.

No, they are referring to the lubricating oil. This oil has a low
percentage of double bonds (chemists call this saturated) so it forms
little "varnish". Varnish here refers to the films found in
automotive applications, not varnish like used as wood finishes.

Hey you could paint with WD-40 !!

Yes but it would be like painting with water - no lasting protective
coating would form.

On my contact cleaner research page, I got an email from a guy
saying in 1962 the Navy banned the use of WD-40 on hydrophones
because it contained a small amount of silicone.That would be great
for a paint job !!! Perhaps now the formula has changed. That would
be WD-41 !!

To the best of my knowledge, WD-40 has never contained silicones.
The earliest compositions of WD-40 had mainly Stoddard solvent with
small amounts of lubricating oil. This has changed over the years as
now WD-40 contains up to 35% of lubricating oil. The exact
composition of WD-40 changes from batch to batch depending on who
supplies the solvent and oils. If the oils are more viscous, they
add more solvent. Remember that all petroleum products are mixtures.

I personally think the entire "story" of WD-40 is a fake. I had a
chemical engineering professor who once worked at a refinery that
sold to the makers of WD-40. He said that Stoddard solvent was
essentially a waste product that was often burned as a fuel. Its
molecular weight was too low to be diesel fuel, but too high for
gasoline. I think it may be used in some high-altitude jet fuels
where it lowers the cloud point temperature. When it was stored in
older tanks that were riveted rather than welded, it would seep out
through even very tiny cracks. This property was well known in the
refining industry and it is why most penetrating oil mixtures contain
Stoddard solvent. Of course, this origin was not exotic enough to
sell to the public. A formulation chemist would have begun his
formulation studies with a mixture similar to what is today WD-40.

As another example of where the story differs from reality, the real
invention of Eastman 910 adhesive, the original "superglue", is quite
different than the story generally told the public. The technician
who glued the prisms in the Abbe refractometer worked down the hall
from my office. Soon after Fred Joyner retired, the infamous
refractometer disappeared. I think it was thrown out in the trash!
The chemist who Fred was working for, Harry Coover, rode his
"discovery" to a Kodak vice-president's position. It appears that
most websites now claim Fred Joyner was a fellow PhD to Harry
Coover. He was actually Coover's technician, and I am not sure if he
even had a BS in chemistry. Fred was, however, a wonderful fellow
who had many tales of Eastman during its post-war growth. Fred died
in 1994 if I remember correctly.

73, Barry WA4VZQ

(*) Have you ever left a can of oil-based paint open for a long
time? It forms a polymerized skin on top, but if you remove the
skin, the paint below is usually still good. The skin will stop
growing in thickness when the diffusion of oxygen through the skin
stops.

[Patrick Turner]

Engineer wrote:

On Jun 28, 7:33 am, Patrick Turner wrote:
Phil Allison wrote:

"sortech"

I just got an amp with rusty power and output transformers. I have noticed
that people buy amps like this on E-bay. Does the rust short the
laminations?

** No.

would spraying with liquid wrench damage the transformers?

** What you need is a stiff wire brush, stroked along the line of the lams
until nothing more comes off.

Then some rust treatment like WD40 or the stuff you mentioned.

After 48 hours clean it off thorougly.

Then brush with gloss, black enamel paint.

..... Phl

All that advice is fine Phil.

WD40 might stop paint from adhering though.

But what caused the rust?

Water, no?

The OPT could still be damp inside so it would be wise to warm up the
amp to say 50C in an oven then place in a vacuum chamber so that most
moisture trapped inside will then boil off and be sucked away by the
vacuum pump.

I always would have grave doubts about old amps that may have been in
flooded premises. There must have been dozens of amps flooded in New
Orleans by Katrina. Maybe they sound well with Blues music.

Are the trannies varnished or waxed? if varnished, their resistance to
moisture effects is better than if only waxed. If the OPT has been
waxed, maybe immersing in a vat of molten wax at 110C for 4 hours will
drive out water.

But wax stops paint adhering, so after wax soaking the OPT should be
left to drain and then the external surfaces should be cleaned with a
solvent to remove wax, so the paint will stick on.

Its all a painful bother, and just one reason I have never ever bought
anything on E-bay.

Patrick Turner.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

An idea about drying out an MT... one might power up the transformer
with all secondaries shorted out at VERY low voltage (use a variac
with current measurement plus a filament transformer, the 6.3 or 12.6
VAC sec. to mains primary winding.) Calculate the watts input and keep
it low, say 10 to 15 watts. Let the transformer warm up for several
hours until certainly dry. Might also work for an OPT... shoet speaker
secondaries and power the P-P primay.
Disclaimer: I've never done this with any transformer - outside
temperature will lag power input, so could burn out windings with
exterior still cold - watch all currents, power and resultant heating
like a hawk!
Of course, if there are enough iron losses just power it up off-load
and wait until it dries out... I have done this!
Cheers,
Roger

It won't work the way you say Roger.

If you want to heat a tranny with current, it should be dc current, and
the current applied must be carefully monitored lest you over heat the
one winding that you are heating. Trouble is, moisture is merely moved
from one part of the tranny to another. If a winding goes to say 105C,
water boils away, but condenses elsewhere.

The whole tranny must be heated to 110C to ensure moisture loss. You
have to worry abou the old insulation material melting and varnish
degrading which may have been used.

Patrick Turner.

[Patrick Turner]

"Dr. Barry L. Ornitz" wrote:

Rather than re-quote excessive text, let me combine several questions
and answers into one message.

GregS wrote:
The question arises, what is one trying to accomplish. You could
use a very small amount of paint with a whole lot of mineral
spirits, and that would also try to seep into the laminates and
dry. Then progressively use thicker coatings. With no need to oil
it up, why bother, except for a quick fix.

I see no need for any oil either. Even if diluted into a very low
viscosity, oil based paint between the laminations may never dry
completely (*). Oxygen must diffuse through the cured film on the
surface and then must diffuse down the narrow spaces between
laminations. Even the paint thinner will be slow to evaporate as it
has this same torturous path to diffuse through to evaporate. But
when the transformer gets hot in use, the thinner will develop a
considerably higher vapor pressure. It could be high enough to drive
the laminations apart or harm the dried paint film on the surface.

Rusty laminations need to be VERY rusty before significant oxidation of
the iron occurs and then rendering the iron useless in the transformer.
Probably all that needs tobe done about an existing tranny's rust is to
stop it getting worse which means sealing the external surfaces to
prevent further moisture ingress causing more rust. So first the
existing water in the tranny should be romoved with the least heating
and trauma as possible, ie, 50C plus vacuum, then mechanical wire
brushing and sanding followed by painting without delay, or soaking in
electrical varnish and re-baking at 125C for 4 hours but only if its
cetain that won't damage anything.

I can't see any benefits with WD40.


Since slightly rusty laminations do not harm the transformer, the
main reason for painting is cosmetic. If the transformer buzzes,
paint may help. Or you could take the transformer to a motor
rewinding shop and have it vacuum impregnated with an alkyd varnish
that cures (polymerizes) when heated. Glyptal is one such resin, and
it has been around since the late 1920's.


So where is Glyptal available? Is it a low vicosity liquid easily
applied? tell us more about Glyptal.



I only redid one transformer in my life, and I used Shellac to coat
the laminations. I don't think thats good stuff. Seems like
Shellac absorbs moisture from what I have seen.

Shellac should work fine. It is a natural resin dissolved in
alcohol. While it does absorb moisture, this should not be much of a
problem with transformers. It can be a problem with wood finishes.

So is polyurethane timber varnish a problem? ( Wattyl Estapol is a trade
name here in Oz )

** You fail to realsise that ALL the volatile parts of WD40 soon
evaporate from a surface.

Early formulations of WD-40 had less lubricating oil than do today's
versions. They would soon evaporate, usually within a few days. WD-
40 today contains much more lubricating oil, and it has a higher
molecular weight. This evaporates slowly after the Stoddard solvent
is gone. But its useful lifetime is now months instead of days.

Seems like the company used to stress drying to a protective film.
I thought the dry film was essentialy, varnish.

No, they are referring to the lubricating oil. This oil has a low
percentage of double bonds (chemists call this saturated) so it forms
little "varnish". Varnish here refers to the films found in
automotive applications, not varnish like used as wood finishes.

Hey you could paint with WD-40 !!

Yes but it would be like painting with water - no lasting protective
coating would form.

On my contact cleaner research page, I got an email from a guy
saying in 1962 the Navy banned the use of WD-40 on hydrophones
because it contained a small amount of silicone.That would be great
for a paint job !!! Perhaps now the formula has changed. That would
be WD-41 !!

To the best of my knowledge, WD-40 has never contained silicones.
The earliest compositions of WD-40 had mainly Stoddard solvent with
small amounts of lubricating oil. This has changed over the years as
now WD-40 contains up to 35% of lubricating oil. The exact
composition of WD-40 changes from batch to batch depending on who
supplies the solvent and oils. If the oils are more viscous, they
add more solvent. Remember that all petroleum products are mixtures.

I personally think the entire "story" of WD-40 is a fake. I had a
chemical engineering professor who once worked at a refinery that
sold to the makers of WD-40. He said that Stoddard solvent was
essentially a waste product that was often burned as a fuel. Its
molecular weight was too low to be diesel fuel, but too high for
gasoline. I think it may be used in some high-altitude jet fuels
where it lowers the cloud point temperature. When it was stored in
older tanks that were riveted rather than welded, it would seep out
through even very tiny cracks. This property was well known in the
refining industry and it is why most penetrating oil mixtures contain
Stoddard solvent. Of course, this origin was not exotic enough to
sell to the public. A formulation chemist would have begun his
formulation studies with a mixture similar to what is today WD-40.

As another example of where the story differs from reality, the real
invention of Eastman 910 adhesive, the original "superglue", is quite
different than the story generally told the public. The technician
who glued the prisms in the Abbe refractometer worked down the hall
from my office. Soon after Fred Joyner retired, the infamous
refractometer disappeared. I think it was thrown out in the trash!
The chemist who Fred was working for, Harry Coover, rode his
"discovery" to a Kodak vice-president's position. It appears that
most websites now claim Fred Joyner was a fellow PhD to Harry
Coover. He was actually Coover's technician, and I am not sure if he
even had a BS in chemistry. Fred was, however, a wonderful fellow
who had many tales of Eastman during its post-war growth. Fred died
in 1994 if I remember correctly.

73, Barry WA4VZQ

(*) Have you ever left a can of oil-based paint open for a long
time? It forms a polymerized skin on top, but if you remove the
skin, the paint below is usually still good. The skin will stop
growing in thickness when the diffusion of oxygen through the skin
stops.

I have observed that often. Eventually the can of paint which is only
25% full all becomes like treacle and you can't use what's under the
skin. Some cans of paint go right off, and the paint all sets hard after
shrinking. Polyurethane varnishes also do this ****.

So, Mr "Barry" Chemist, what's the best varnish to use when winding up a
tranny and where you brush on the varnish as you wind with the aim to
heat the tranny later to a conveniently low temperature to make the
varnish harden?

Patrick Turner.

[GregS[_3_]]

In article , "Dr. Barry L. Ornitz" wrote:
Rather than re-quote excessive text, let me combine several questions
and answers into one message.

GregS wrote:
The question arises, what is one trying to accomplish. You could
use a very small amount of paint with a whole lot of mineral
spirits, and that would also try to seep into the laminates and
dry. Then progressively use thicker coatings. With no need to oil
it up, why bother, except for a quick fix.

I see no need for any oil either. Even if diluted into a very low
viscosity, oil based paint between the laminations may never dry
completely (*). Oxygen must diffuse through the cured film on the
surface and then must diffuse down the narrow spaces between
laminations. Even the paint thinner will be slow to evaporate as it
has this same torturous path to diffuse through to evaporate. But
when the transformer gets hot in use, the thinner will develop a
considerably higher vapor pressure. It could be high enough to drive
the laminations apart or harm the dried paint film on the surface.

Since slightly rusty laminations do not harm the transformer, the
main reason for painting is cosmetic. If the transformer buzzes,
paint may help. Or you could take the transformer to a motor
rewinding shop and have it vacuum impregnated with an alkyd varnish
that cures (polymerizes) when heated. Glyptal is one such resin, and
it has been around since the late 1920's.

I only redid one transformer in my life, and I used Shellac to coat
the laminations. I don't think thats good stuff. Seems like
Shellac absorbs moisture from what I have seen.

Shellac should work fine. It is a natural resin dissolved in
alcohol. While it does absorb moisture, this should not be much of a
problem with transformers. It can be a problem with wood finishes.

** You fail to realsise that ALL the volatile parts of WD40 soon
evaporate from a surface.

Early formulations of WD-40 had less lubricating oil than do today's
versions. They would soon evaporate, usually within a few days. WD-
40 today contains much more lubricating oil, and it has a higher
molecular weight. This evaporates slowly after the Stoddard solvent
is gone. But its useful lifetime is now months instead of days.

Seems like the company used to stress drying to a protective film.
I thought the dry film was essentialy, varnish.

No, they are referring to the lubricating oil. This oil has a low
percentage of double bonds (chemists call this saturated) so it forms
little "varnish". Varnish here refers to the films found in
automotive applications, not varnish like used as wood finishes.

Some years ago a doctor was telling me he used WD-40 a lot on his firearms.
He noticed it was developing a build up of what he called varnish.

This is supposed to be the real story today.....

http://www.wired.com/science/discove...st_whatsinside





Hey you could paint with WD-40 !!

Yes but it would be like painting with water - no lasting protective
coating would form.

[Ian Iveson]

Jon wrote:

WD40 migrates and gets into all of the nooks and crannies.

I certainly wouldn't use it on a rust transformer, and
especially if I was
going to paint it.

If you are lucky, the compound will become part of the
paint. If not,
you've got a mess.

Quite. It will leach down between the laminations, and then
creep up again under the paint. If you use some other
solvent to remove it, you may as well have used that to
begin with.

It may be compatible with some paints, but not with others.

WD40 is for bodgers. A quick fix responsible for millions of
subsequent catastrophic failures. And it stinks.

I would brush until flat, and wipe with enough phosphoric
acid to penetrate the bit of rust left between the
laminations. Then after a day or two clean with a wipe of
whatever solvent is appropriate for the paint, and allow to
dry thoroughly.

The most important thing for a lasting finish is to ensure
there is no damp remaining between the laminations, which
will cause more rust under the paint.

The paint should be hard or it will soon rub off the
corners. If it can't be baked, a two-part paint such as
epoxy should be considered, because normal air drying paints
take months to harden.

Ian

[GregS[_3_]]

In article , "Ian Iveson" wrote:
Jon wrote:

WD40 migrates and gets into all of the nooks and crannies.

I certainly wouldn't use it on a rust transformer, and
especially if I was
going to paint it.

If you are lucky, the compound will become part of the
paint. If not,
you've got a mess.

Quite. It will leach down between the laminations, and then
creep up again under the paint. If you use some other
solvent to remove it, you may as well have used that to
begin with.

It may be compatible with some paints, but not with others.

WD40 is for bodgers. A quick fix responsible for millions of
subsequent catastrophic failures. And it stinks.

I would brush until flat, and wipe with enough phosphoric
acid to penetrate the bit of rust left between the
laminations. Then after a day or two clean with a wipe of
whatever solvent is appropriate for the paint, and allow to
dry thoroughly.

The most important thing for a lasting finish is to ensure
there is no damp remaining between the laminations, which
will cause more rust under the paint.

Not many transformers are completly sealed.

The paint should be hard or it will soon rub off the
corners. If it can't be baked, a two-part paint such as
epoxy should be considered, because normal air drying paints
take months to harden.

Why would it rub off the corners if no contact is being made?
It does not have to be epoxy to dry fast. Automobile paint
usually comes with a hardner additive, which you add like
and epoxy mix, which makes it pretty dry in a day or two.
If you don't add the hardner it takes, or took me several
months, even with some heat applied, just to get it hard
enought to buff. Still was no way near hard like if
I would have added the hardner. This was on a car I was
detailing last year.

I played with the phosphoric acid last year on the car.
One thing it does not do is penetrate through all rust layers.
What you end up with is a hard coating over remaining rust.
The rust layer cannot be thick to work well. I really don't think phosphoric
acid is going to get through the laminations. I do have some
old Dupont prep which is alcohol based. Phosphoric acid
and alcohol. You can probably mix with alcohol to get
a better seep into the laminations, if
thats what you want to do.

greg


greg

[GregS[_3_]]

In article , (GregS) wrote:
In article , "Ian Iveson"
wrote:
Jon wrote:

WD40 migrates and gets into all of the nooks and crannies.


The paint should be hard or it will soon rub off the
corners. If it can't be baked, a two-part paint such as
epoxy should be considered, because normal air drying paints
take months to harden.


One thing to realize. Paint or epoxy with the catalist not only makes
the thing set fast, but it gets very runny just before
setting creating a very nice smooth shiny finish.
If you want shiny.

greg



Why would it rub off the corners if no contact is being made?
It does not have to be epoxy to dry fast. Automobile paint
usually comes with a hardner additive, which you add like
and epoxy mix, which makes it pretty dry in a day or two.
If you don't add the hardner it takes, or took me several
months, even with some heat applied, just to get it hard
enought to buff. Still was no way near hard like if
I would have added the hardner. This was on a car I was
detailing last year.

I played with the phosphoric acid last year on the car.
One thing it does not do is penetrate through all rust layers.
What you end up with is a hard coating over remaining rust.
The rust layer cannot be thick to work well. I really don't think phosphoric
acid is going to get through the laminations. I do have some
old Dupont prep which is alcohol based. Phosphoric acid
and alcohol. You can probably mix with alcohol to get
a better seep into the laminations, if
thats what you want to do.

greg


greg

[Engineer[_2_]]

On Jun 30, 5:18*am, Patrick Turner wrote:
Engineer wrote:

On Jun 28, 7:33 am, Patrick Turner wrote:
Phil Allison wrote:

"sortech"

I just got an amp with rusty power and output transformers. I have noticed
that people buy amps like this on E-bay. Does the rust short the
laminations?

** *No.

would spraying with liquid wrench damage the transformers?

** What you need is a stiff wire brush, stroked along the line of the lams
until nothing more comes off.

*Then some rust treatment like WD40 or the stuff you mentioned.

*After 48 hours clean it off thorougly.

*Then brush with gloss, black enamel paint.

..... * Phl

All that advice is fine Phil.

WD40 might stop paint from adhering though.

But what caused the rust?

Water, no?

The OPT could still be damp inside so it would be wise to warm up the
amp to say 50C in an oven then place in a vacuum chamber so that most
moisture trapped inside will then boil off and be sucked away by the
vacuum pump.

I always would have grave doubts about old amps that may have been in
flooded premises. There must have been dozens of amps flooded in New
Orleans by Katrina. Maybe they sound well with Blues music.

Are the trannies varnished or waxed? if varnished, their resistance to
moisture effects is better than if only waxed. If the OPT has been
waxed, maybe immersing in a vat of molten wax at 110C for 4 hours will
drive out water.

But wax stops paint adhering, so after wax soaking the OPT should be
left to drain and then the external surfaces should be cleaned with a
solvent to remove wax, so the paint will stick on.

Its all a painful bother, and just one reason I have never ever bought
anything on E-bay.

Patrick Turner.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

An idea about drying out an MT... one might power up the transformer
with all secondaries shorted out at VERY low voltage (use a variac
with current measurement plus a filament transformer, the 6.3 or 12.6
VAC sec. to mains primary winding.) Calculate the watts input and keep
it low, say 10 to 15 watts. *Let the transformer warm up for several
hours until certainly dry. Might also work for an OPT... shoet speaker
secondaries and power the P-P primay.
Disclaimer: I've never done this with any transformer - outside
temperature will lag power input, so could burn out windings with
exterior still cold - watch all currents, power and resultant heating
like a hawk!
Of course, if there are enough iron losses just power it up off-load
and wait until it dries out... *I have done this!
Cheers,
Roger

It won't work the way you say Roger.

If you want to heat a tranny with current, it should be dc current, and
the current applied must be carefully monitored lest you over heat the
one winding that you are heating. Trouble is, moisture is merely moved
from one part of the tranny to another. If a winding goes to say 105C,
water boils away, but condenses elsewhere.

The whole tranny must be heated to 110C to ensure moisture loss. You
have to worry abou the old insulation material melting and varnish
degrading which may have been used.

Patrick Turner.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Patrick, you have a point, but I was not thinking of boiling water
off, rather just getting the transformer warm enough to let any
moisture evaporate slowly before painting... say 50 deg.C for 48
hours, or as long as it needs to heat soak. BTW, what's wrong with AC
to heat the windings? As you know, S/C testing produces I^2.R losses,
only, heating the copper with no iron losses to speak of. But open
circuit (no load) core heating is from iron losses, if there are
enough of them - might be better for drying as it's "more inside". I
have at least one MT that gets quite warm under O/C testing and it
doesn't have shorted turns. I have others that stay virtually stone
cold if unloaded and barely warm up on normal load. Another, in a
circa-1960's Phillips table-top radio, gets very hot under normal load
but I don't think it has shorted turns - it's just a nasty component!
I sold the radio (it's still working fine!)
Cheers,
Roger

[Dr. Barry L. Ornitz]

"GregS" wrote in message
...
Why would it rub off the corners if no contact is being made?
It does not have to be epoxy to dry fast. Automobile paint
usually comes with a hardner additive, which you add like
and epoxy mix, which makes it pretty dry in a day or two.
If you don't add the hardner it takes, or took me several
months, even with some heat applied, just to get it hard
enought to buff. Still was no way near hard like if
I would have added the hardner. This was on a car I was
detailing last year.

The manufacturers of early epoxy resins for the public should have done a
better job of naming the ingredients. The "resin" is actually a monomer
or short chain polymer having an epoxide group at both ends. The
"hardener" is a polyamine monomer. Epoxy is a co-polymer formed when
resin reacts with the hardener, and both need to be in approximately
equal parts. Compare this to unsaturated polyester resins (like Bondo)
which need a polymerization catalyst like methyl-ethyl-ketone peroxide to
start the reaction. Polyester resins will react without the catalyst,
albeit slowly. I am amazed your epoxy hardened at all.

I played with the phosphoric acid last year on the car.
One thing it does not do is penetrate through all rust layers.
What you end up with is a hard coating over remaining rust.
The rust layer cannot be thick to work well. I really don't think
phosphoric
acid is going to get through the laminations. I do have some
old Dupont prep which is alcohol based. Phosphoric acid
and alcohol. You can probably mix with alcohol to get
a better seep into the laminations, if
thats what you want to do.

The phosphoric acid reacts with red iron oxides to convert them to a
tightly adhering black iron phosphate. This will actually prevent
further rusting under the phosphate. Most of the rust should be removed
mechanically before the phosphoric acid is applied, as you note. Let the
iron phosphate dry very thoroughly before painting.

73, Barry WA4VZQ

[Dr. Barry L. Ornitz]

"GregS" wrote in message
...
Some years ago a doctor was telling me he used WD-40 a lot on his
firearms. He noticed it was developing a build up of what he called
varnish.

Yes, there is a small amount of hydrocarbons in WD-40 with covalent
bonds. These can oxidize and form a gummy residue similar to paint
or varnish. Gasoline when stored for a while, exposed to air, can
form varnish too.

This is supposed to be the real story today.....

http://www.wired.com/science/discove...st_whatsinside

It took many tries before this would load. I am not terribly
impressed with their results. Most certainly, the alkanes are not
all linear chains. And if cyclics like dimethyl naphthalene and
cyclohexane are present, there will be other cyclics and isoalkanes
by the score. They should have performed simulated distillation with
the chromatograph. This ramps its temperature up slowly so the less
volatile components will elude from the GC column. WD-40 has
significant levels of C18 through C22 hydrocarbons with lower levels
of even higher molecular weight hydrocarbons. The manufacturer will
not publically divulge what anti-oxidant is used in WD-40. I suspect
that something in the hydroquinone family or either tocopherol
(Vitamin E) is used for this. Wired needs a better lab!

Barry

[Dr. Barry L. Ornitz]

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...

So where is Glyptal available? Is it a low vicosity liquid easily
applied? tell us more about Glyptal.

Glyptal was one of the earliest alkyd varnishes. Its name comes from
GLYcerin and PhThALic acid, the ingredients used to make it. These
ingredients were combined in a condensation polymerization reaction
to produce a low molecular weight liquid polymer. This is applied
and then heated to further polymerize and cross-link, thereby creating
the final cured coating. Most motor rewinding shops have it or an
alternative material for vacuum impregnating motor coils and
transformers. They also have the large ovens for baking it.

Many of these coatings are available from the Glyptal Company
(formerly a part of General Electric). See: http://www.glyptal.com
for details. Getting just a gallon or two from them may be
difficult. Fortunately Caswell Plating carries it,
http://www.caswellplating.com/aids/glyptal.html#. It cannot be
shipped by air, but UPS (United Package Smashers) will carry it.

So is polyurethane timber varnish a problem? ( Wattyl Estapol is a
trade name here in Oz )

The oil based varnish should do well too but read on...

So, Mr "Barry" Chemist, what's the best varnish to use when winding
up a tranny and where you brush on the varnish as you wind with the
aim to heat the tranny later to a conveniently low temperature to
make the varnish harden?

Patrick Turner.

Well, to start, my degrees are in chemical and electrical
engineering, not chemistry. But I am not offended. :-) One of my
hobbies is restoring Boatanchors, which are what ham radio operators
affectionately call vacuum tube radios. The name comes from the
military surplus radios flooding the market after WWII. I used to be
active in a mail reflector specific to vacuum tube radios. Since I
was the one who usually answered questions about glyptal, MPF
(moisture and fungus proofing), wrinkle finish paint, PCBs
(polychlorinated biphenyls), cellulose ester plastics, and other
sundry antique radio stuff, I was respectfully called the "resident
chemist" by the group. Earlier this evening, I wrote some
recommendations for PCB cleanup for Alan, VK2DRR. He was restoring a
venerable old AR88 receiver whose oil filled caps were leaking. I
consider Morris, VK3DOC, another restorer of Boatanchors, one of my
closest friends. One of these days, I plan to visit him down under.
It has been my experience that Aussie hams were some of the most
resourceful hams I have ever met.

Instead of applying Glyptal, or another insulating varnish, by
hand, layer by layer, I suggest visiting a large motor rewinding
shop. They usually have the facilities for vacuum impregnation and
they are a good source for enameled wire too. I have had a large
transformer coated and baked for just a few dollars. The shop also
supplied "fish paper" and Nomex high temperature insulating cloth.
Making a friend there is well worth your while. You can pick up lots
of useful tips for nothing more than the cost of a few cups of coffee
and a box of doughnuts.

73 (amateur radio for Best Regards), Barry WA4VZQ

[GregS[_3_]]

In article , "Dr. Barry L. Ornitz" wrote:
"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...

So where is Glyptal available? Is it a low vicosity liquid easily
applied? tell us more about Glyptal.

Glyptal was one of the earliest alkyd varnishes. Its name comes from
GLYcerin and PhThALic acid, the ingredients used to make it. These
i

Instead of applying Glyptal, or another insulating varnish, by
hand, layer by layer, I suggest visiting a large motor rewinding
shop. They usually have the facilities for vacuum impregnation and
they are a good source for enameled wire too. I have had a large
transformer coated and baked for just a few dollars. The shop also
supplied "fish paper" and Nomex high temperature insulating cloth.
Making a friend there is well worth your while. You can pick up lots
of useful tips for nothing more than the cost of a few cups of coffee
and a box of doughnuts.

73 (amateur radio for Best Regards), Barry WA4VZQ


I went to a shop in the early 80's. Some woman was in charge of a bunch of workers.
It was mostly a transformer shop. I got copper wire for cheap along with free mica tape and
laminations.

greg

[GregS[_3_]]

In article , "Dr. Barry L. Ornitz" wrote:
Rather than re-quote excessive text, let me combine several questions
and answers into one message.

GregS wrote:
The question arises, what is one trying to accomplish. You could
use a very small amount of paint with a whole lot of mineral
spirits, and that would also try to seep into the laminates and
dry. Then progressively use thicker coatings. With no need to oil
it up, why bother, except for a quick fix.

I see no need for any oil either. Even if diluted into a very low
viscosity, oil based paint between the laminations may never dry

On my contact cleaner research page, I got an email from a guy
saying in 1962 the Navy banned the use of WD-40 on hydrophones
because it contained a small amount of silicone.That would be great
for a paint job !!! Perhaps now the formula has changed. That would
be WD-41 !!

To the best of my knowledge, WD-40 has never contained silicones.
The earliest compositions of WD-40 had mainly Stoddard solvent with
small amounts of lubricating oil. This has changed over the years as
now WD-40 contains up to 35% of lubricating oil. The exact
composition of WD-40 changes from batch to batch depending on who
supplies the solvent and oils. If the oils are more viscous, they
add more solvent. Remember that all petroleum products are mixtures.

I don't know if it was true, and I don't know what Navy.(US) That was
from a person who I will quote below..

As WD-40 contains small amounts of silicone, we advise against its use.
The problem with any product containing silicone it that when it is
exposed to salt, it can form 'waterglass', which ie an excellent
insulator and it is very difficult to remove! In 1962, the US navy
banned its use in sonar hydrophones for that reason. I have friends who
are commercial pilots who sprayed it on wing-flap hinges; the
consequence was that the skin of the flap developed hairline cracks. The
normal technique of 'Stop drilling' did not prevent the propagation of
the crack.

Wm. M. Wright, CEO
S. W. Electrochemicals Ltd.

[Dr. Barry L. Ornitz]

"GregS" wrote in message
...
I don't know if it was true, and I don't know what Navy.(US) That was
from a person who I will quote below..

As WD-40 contains small amounts of silicone, we advise against its use.
The problem with any product containing silicone it that when it is
exposed to salt, it can form 'waterglass', which ie an excellent
insulator and it is very difficult to remove! In 1962, the US navy
banned its use in sonar hydrophones for that reason. I have friends who
are commercial pilots who sprayed it on wing-flap hinges; the
consequence was that the skin of the flap developed hairline cracks.
The
normal technique of 'Stop drilling' did not prevent the propagation of
the crack.


This still sounds like a Navy fish story to me. Waterglass is sodium
silicate and it is trivial to remove as it dissolves in water; it also is
an electrical conductor when wet. Also silicones are very resistant to
salt solutions. Not many things attack silicone. A few that do include
the now banned dichloro-difluoro-ethylene which is a good solvent for low
molecular weight silicones, and strong caustics like concentrated
potassium hydroxide and sodium hydroxide. In fact, silicone potting
compounds are used in hydrophone construction. Silicone compounds have
been used since WWII to encapsulate the Rochelle salt piezoelectric
crystals.

What I suspect was happening to the hydrophones was the use of one-part
silicone which, when it cures, releases acetic acid (some newer silicones
release alcohols which are much more benign). One-part silicones will
not cure deeper than a centimeter or so too. For deep section cures, two
part silicones are needed as they need no the exposure to air and do not
release any reaction byproducts. Eastman Chemical Company learned this
the hard way when they tried to seal some thermocouples used in their
coal gasifier. I was called in from their research labs to find out why
their thermocouple life was so short. Switching to two-part silicones
cured half of their problems. The other half of the problems required
the assistance of one of the plant metallurgists.

WD-40 provides very little long-term lubrication, especially early
formulations of WD-40. With air flowing past the hinges at high
velocity, the evaporation of WD-40 would increase leaving the hinges with
NO lubrication. But the cracks appear much more like stress corrosion
cracking than anything in WD-40. I know of no ingredients in WD-40 that
would cause stress corrosion cracking.

Does your friend, perchance, sell his own version of WD-40? It sure
sounds like he is stretching facts to dissuade people from using WD-40.

Barry

[bigwig]

On Jul 1, 9:08*pm, "Dr. Barry L. Ornitz"
wrote:
"GregS" wrote in message

...

I don't know if it was true, and I don't know what Navy.(US) That was
from a person who I will quote below..

As WD-40 contains small amounts of silicone, we advise against its use.
The problem with any product containing silicone it that when it is
exposed to salt, it can form 'waterglass', which ie an excellent
insulator and it is very difficult to remove! In 1962, the US navy
banned its use in sonar hydrophones for that reason. I have friends who
are commercial pilots who sprayed it on wing-flap hinges; the
consequence was that the skin of the flap developed hairline cracks.
The
normal technique of 'Stop drilling' did not prevent the propagation of
the crack.

This still sounds like a Navy fish story to me. *Waterglass is sodium
silicate and it is trivial to remove as it dissolves in water; it also is
an electrical conductor when wet. *Also silicones are very resistant to
salt solutions. *Not many things attack silicone. *A few that do include
the now banned dichloro-difluoro-ethylene which is a good solvent for low
molecular weight silicones, and strong caustics like concentrated
potassium hydroxide and sodium hydroxide. *In fact, silicone potting
compounds are used in hydrophone construction. *Silicone compounds have
been used since WWII to encapsulate the Rochelle salt piezoelectric
crystals.

What I suspect was happening to the hydrophones was the use of one-part
silicone which, when it cures, releases acetic acid (some newer silicones
release alcohols which are much more benign). *One-part silicones will
not cure deeper than a centimeter or so too. *For deep section cures, two
part silicones are needed as they need no the exposure to air and do not
release any reaction byproducts. *Eastman Chemical Company learned this
the hard way when they tried to seal some thermocouples used in their
coal gasifier. *I was called in from their research labs to find out why
their thermocouple life was so short. *Switching to two-part silicones
cured half of their problems. *The other half of the problems required
the assistance of one of the plant metallurgists.

WD-40 provides very little long-term lubrication, especially early
formulations of WD-40. *With air flowing past the hinges at high
velocity, the evaporation of WD-40 would increase leaving the hinges with
NO lubrication. *But the cracks appear much more like stress corrosion
cracking than anything in WD-40. *I know of no ingredients in WD-40 that
would cause stress corrosion cracking.

Does your friend, perchance, sell his own version of WD-40? *It sure
sounds like he is stretching facts to dissuade people from using WD-40.

* * * * Barry

This is a really great thread.
WD 40. Well its the best selling bodge-tastic do it all nothingness
that exists.
It does have its uses though. When I worked at Dowtys they used to buy
it in 5 gallon drums (expensive). We used it as a first shot at
freeing a broken stud/bolt etc. Sometimes it worked although 90
percent of the time we ended up drilling/grinding and generally
munching the thing out.
I still use it now as cutting fluid for aluminium alloys. On the
last fine cut you really cant beat it, although unless you can afford
it just use normal parafin for roughing out. I have some old Rocol
branded stuff that is the best penetrating fluid. Its solvent is
"trike" 111, dont ask me to spell it although I know its banned
(builds up in your liver) great stuff for killing flies too.
Anyway as for WD 40 I am certain it contains silicone because if you
have it anywhere near your prep work for painting you end up with
blotches (and the paint). You can even use it to advantage if you want
a Hammerite type finish.
Cheers
Matt.
I agree about the waterglass nonesense. Its jelly like, disolves in
water and is no real problem

[Phil Allison[_3_]]

"bigwig = bigwank "


WD 40. Well its the best selling bodge-tastic do it all nothingness
that exists.


** Funny how so many folk find it so useful - then.


Anyway as for WD 40 I am certain it contains silicone..


** It says right on the can " No Silicone. No kerosene ".

But ****wits like YOU can never be convinced of anything.



.... Phil

[Patrick Turner]

Engineer wrote:

On Jun 30, 5:18 am, Patrick Turner wrote:
Engineer wrote:

On Jun 28, 7:33 am, Patrick Turner wrote:
Phil Allison wrote:

"sortech"

I just got an amp with rusty power and output transformers. I have noticed
that people buy amps like this on E-bay. Does the rust short the
laminations?

** No.

would spraying with liquid wrench damage the transformers?

** What you need is a stiff wire brush, stroked along the line of the lams
until nothing more comes off.

Then some rust treatment like WD40 or the stuff you mentioned.

After 48 hours clean it off thorougly.

Then brush with gloss, black enamel paint.

..... Phl

All that advice is fine Phil.

WD40 might stop paint from adhering though.

But what caused the rust?

Water, no?

The OPT could still be damp inside so it would be wise to warm up the
amp to say 50C in an oven then place in a vacuum chamber so that most
moisture trapped inside will then boil off and be sucked away by the
vacuum pump.

I always would have grave doubts about old amps that may have been in
flooded premises. There must have been dozens of amps flooded in New
Orleans by Katrina. Maybe they sound well with Blues music.

Are the trannies varnished or waxed? if varnished, their resistance to
moisture effects is better than if only waxed. If the OPT has been
waxed, maybe immersing in a vat of molten wax at 110C for 4 hours will
drive out water.

But wax stops paint adhering, so after wax soaking the OPT should be
left to drain and then the external surfaces should be cleaned with a
solvent to remove wax, so the paint will stick on.

Its all a painful bother, and just one reason I have never ever bought
anything on E-bay.

Patrick Turner.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

An idea about drying out an MT... one might power up the transformer
with all secondaries shorted out at VERY low voltage (use a variac
with current measurement plus a filament transformer, the 6.3 or 12.6
VAC sec. to mains primary winding.) Calculate the watts input and keep
it low, say 10 to 15 watts. Let the transformer warm up for several
hours until certainly dry. Might also work for an OPT... shoet speaker
secondaries and power the P-P primay.
Disclaimer: I've never done this with any transformer - outside
temperature will lag power input, so could burn out windings with
exterior still cold - watch all currents, power and resultant heating
like a hawk!
Of course, if there are enough iron losses just power it up off-load
and wait until it dries out... I have done this!
Cheers,
Roger

It won't work the way you say Roger.

If you want to heat a tranny with current, it should be dc current, and
the current applied must be carefully monitored lest you over heat the
one winding that you are heating. Trouble is, moisture is merely moved
from one part of the tranny to another. If a winding goes to say 105C,
water boils away, but condenses elsewhere.

The whole tranny must be heated to 110C to ensure moisture loss. You
have to worry abou the old insulation material melting and varnish
degrading which may have been used.

Patrick Turner.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Patrick, you have a point, but I was not thinking of boiling water
off, rather just getting the transformer warm enough to let any
moisture evaporate slowly before painting... say 50 deg.C for 48
hours, or as long as it needs to heat soak.

50C for all week long still won't dry out the tranny thouroughly.

BTW, what's wrong with AC
to heat the windings?

Its because you have to apply fairly high voltages, and if there is a HV
secondary and water present maybe you get arcing.

The application of dc means voltages are all very low and the coils heat
up according to I*R.
But the cores don't heat from the dc; the coils heat and transfer heat
to the core, so you need to wrap the item in a blanket and allow time
for the heat to soak out into the core. Very tricky.

In many PT, with no load and applied ac, the cores don't heat up much at
all, unless you raise the applied voltage to push the cores into
saturation, and then you get high current peaks and copper heating as
well.

I don't lke any of these techniques, and using an oven to heat up a
tranny to 50C then place it in a vacuum chamber, and a compressor set up
to suck rather than blow will do from a suitable enclosure and a small
dia hose pipe.

As you know, S/C testing produces I^2.R losses,
only, heating the copper with no iron losses to speak of. But open
circuit (no load) core heating is from iron losses, if there are
enough of them - might be better for drying as it's "more inside". I
have at least one MT that gets quite warm under O/C testing and it
doesn't have shorted turns. I have others that stay virtually stone
cold if unloaded and barely warm up on normal load. Another, in a
circa-1960's Phillips table-top radio, gets very hot under normal load
but I don't think it has shorted turns - it's just a nasty component!
I sold the radio (it's still working fine!)
Cheers,
Roger

Many cheap radios had 30C rise in temp above ambient. It means that on a
30C day the PT rises to 60C, ouch!

Many were designed like that and had ordinary paper insulation thatafter
60 years goes very dry and brittle.
Sometimes you can extend life by soaking the tranny when it is dry in
varnish and baking it.

Patrick Turner.

[Patrick Turner]

"Dr. Barry L. Ornitz" wrote:

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...

So where is Glyptal available? Is it a low vicosity liquid easily
applied? tell us more about Glyptal.

Glyptal was one of the earliest alkyd varnishes. Its name comes from
GLYcerin and PhThALic acid, the ingredients used to make it. These
ingredients were combined in a condensation polymerization reaction
to produce a low molecular weight liquid polymer. This is applied
and then heated to further polymerize and cross-link, thereby creating
the final cured coating. Most motor rewinding shops have it or an
alternative material for vacuum impregnating motor coils and
transformers. They also have the large ovens for baking it.

There are suppliers selling "electrical varnish" that pongs badly while
using it and which hardens in air, but not under layers of wire and
insulation unless heated at 125C for 4 hours. I have no idae if its
Glyptal.

Many of these coatings are available from the Glyptal Company
(formerly a part of General Electric). See: http://www.glyptal.com
for details. Getting just a gallon or two from them may be
difficult. Fortunately Caswell Plating carries it,
http://www.caswellplating.com/aids/glyptal.html#. It cannot be
shipped by air, but UPS (United Package Smashers) will carry it.

So is polyurethane timber varnish a problem? ( Wattyl Estapol is a
trade name here in Oz )

The oil based varnish should do well too but read on...

It doesn't seem to really go very hard after heating. Sort of mushy, and
then its easy to over heat it and its brittle.


So, Mr "Barry" Chemist, what's the best varnish to use when winding
up a tranny and where you brush on the varnish as you wind with the
aim to heat the tranny later to a conveniently low temperature to
make the varnish harden?

Patrick Turner.

Well, to start, my degrees are in chemical and electrical
engineering, not chemistry. But I am not offended. :-) One of my
hobbies is restoring Boatanchors, which are what ham radio operators
affectionately call vacuum tube radios. The name comes from the
military surplus radios flooding the market after WWII. I used to be
active in a mail reflector specific to vacuum tube radios. Since I
was the one who usually answered questions about glyptal, MPF
(moisture and fungus proofing), wrinkle finish paint, PCBs
(polychlorinated biphenyls), cellulose ester plastics, and other
sundry antique radio stuff, I was respectfully called the "resident
chemist" by the group. Earlier this evening, I wrote some
recommendations for PCB cleanup for Alan, VK2DRR. He was restoring a
venerable old AR88 receiver whose oil filled caps were leaking. I
consider Morris, VK3DOC, another restorer of Boatanchors, one of my
closest friends. One of these days, I plan to visit him down under.
It has been my experience that Aussie hams were some of the most
resourceful hams I have ever met.

I have 3 AR88 and several other old radios waiting for the day when I
get some time to maybe make 1 or two really good AR88 from the 3 I have.
I inherited them and in an uncompleted state, with some spare parts from
an old guy whose time ran out. Plus I got several pick up loads of other
junk, so I had to build serious storage to accomodate it, then tell
myself never again......

Instead of applying Glyptal, or another insulating varnish, by
hand, layer by layer, I suggest visiting a large motor rewinding
shop. They usually have the facilities for vacuum impregnation and
they are a good source for enameled wire too.

There is a guy here who I did visit for just that purpose but he didn't
ever use a vacuum chamber for the motors he re-wound because was no
need. The varnish just soaks in easily to motor windings because there
are no flat thin windings between cheeks with insulation tightly fitting
to prevent vanish ingress. I hunted around for someone with a vac
chamber but no luck.
So I made a vac chamber.

The trouble is that I can submerge a warmed up item in a can of varnish
within the vac chamber, and draw the vacuum, but the big risk is that
the varnish boils at the lower pressure then gets into the vaccum pump,
where it causes grief to the piston and its sealing rings and valves.
YUK!. I stuffed an old fridge compressor I was using backwards. Now I
have a 1HP painter's compressor, and I don't want to **** that up.
The vacuum I get is only 95%, but good enough.

I have had a large
transformer coated and baked for just a few dollars. The shop also
supplied "fish paper" and Nomex high temperature insulating cloth.
Making a friend there is well worth your while. You can pick up lots
of useful tips for nothing more than the cost of a few cups of coffee
and a box of doughnuts.

Well, sometimes the guys at the motor re-winders are not all that
friendly. The ones I knew are rather surly, and always busy worrying
about everything, and never take time off during working hours for
coffee and a dougnut. After working hours they rush off home; they can't
bear to stay another minute. And the soak method is unreliable for PT or
OPT. One gave me 4L can of varnish for its cost price, but next time I
enquired he said he didn't want to give me any. They don't like having
to keep ordering it in bulk more often. The slighytest thing thay did
for me always cost money, so I figured I needed to be independant.

And you have not ansered my question, what's the best goop that you can
paint with a paint brush on while winding neat layers, and then heat
afterwards to a temperature not exceeding say 60C? It needs to be able
to adhere to polythene or polyester. I'm used to the stuff that hardens
at 125C after 4+ hours. Very smelly while whatever solvent is boiled off
and whatever else. For my oven, I use an old electric frypan with a lid
that has been increased in height to take largish PT with say a 2kW
rating. The temp control appears to be OK and if I set it at 260F the
varnish does appear to go dry and hard under the outer layers of clear
coloured insulation around an item. If it ain't baked enough, you can
see that the varnish is still liquid and squishy under the insulation.
Further within the winding things would be worse.
I wanted something that didn't need such a high temp and thus gave me
some leeway against melting insulation.

I have used Wattyl 7008 floor varnish which comes equal cans of part A
and partB which you mix as you need it. Its also terrible to use while
winding because it gets everywhere and on your hands and stinks like
hell. You need a can of methylated spirts and cloth to keep cleaning
hands and your fingers are black for a week afterwards. Lord knows what
the fumes do to lungs.
Its good stuff though because its pot life is 8 hours, and you paint it
on generously and you can clamp up layered tranny winding between blocks
of wood to make sure the height of winding gets down to what you've
calculated so the E&I lams will fit in later. Next day the clamps are
removed, and the winding stays down to the clamped dimensions, and
insertion of E&I is easy.
But it doesn't stick very well to other plastics used for interlayer
insulation, so in an OPT you can get some howl because there is still
some microscopic vibration possible between where things have little
adherance. What appears to howl ther least is a compound that does not
harden completely, but which stays a bit gooey, sort of like tars or
heavy waxes, so that itm is damped rather than glued together. Tars of
course are usless for varnishing; they are far too viscous but are ideal
for potting compound, and they are cheap.
Trouble is the local road emoleum used here is liquid at 60C, and even
at 30C it will run slowly out of a pot used for potting a tranny. The
roofer's pitch won't run at 30C or even 60C, but you need to heat it to
150C to use it, so when its poured in around a tranny in a can you have
to allow a big space so it gets in without setting hard as it cools
against items in the can.
I tried waxes, but they melt too easily, and you get pools of it under
amps on a warm day. I tried styrene as a hardener but it did virtually
nothing to improve matters. Corboba wax was not much better and it
shrank a lot after it had cooled.
The real mc'coy potting compound is a terribler price!.
Good stuff, but like the casting resin I now use for potting, but if you
ever need to re-wind the tranny its extremely difficult to remove the
core. For a usless tranny with a shorted turn or open winding I
generally place the itm in a wood fire after drilling a few holes to let
vapors under pressure get out without explosions. When I cansee the core
is just dull read then next day the mess will fall apart and I can
recover the lams. But it doesn't work with toroids or C-cores because
the lams are strips glued together with epoxy glue of some kind, but I
am not sure what though.
I have an open fireplace with a door that closes down and the terrible
smelling smoke goes up the chimney late at night. I don't do it often.
From what I have observed, the cores magnetic performance does not
suffer from the heating. They are used later in chokes where core
material is not critical. The fire vaporizes any plastics, and the wire
can be easily cut free for the re-cycle bin.
The varnish between lams is also vaporized and the tranny is easy to
dismantle.
So if ever a house with a huge collection of boat anchor electronics
burns down, at least there will be a pile of cores somewhere for that
dedicated old bugger somewhere who will beging to re-build.

Patrick Turner.







73 (amateur radio for Best Regards), Barry WA4VZQ

[GregS[_3_]]

In article , "Dr. Barry L. Ornitz" wrote:
"GregS" wrote in message
...
I don't know if it was true, and I don't know what Navy.(US) That was
from a person who I will quote below..

As WD-40 contains small amounts of silicone, we advise against its use.
The problem with any product containing silicone it that when it is
exposed to salt, it can form 'waterglass', which ie an excellent
insulator and it is very difficult to remove! In 1962, the US navy
banned its use in sonar hydrophones for that reason. I have friends who
are commercial pilots who sprayed it on wing-flap hinges; the
consequence was that the skin of the flap developed hairline cracks.
The
normal technique of 'Stop drilling' did not prevent the propagation of
the crack.


This still sounds like a Navy fish story to me. Waterglass is sodium
silicate and it is trivial to remove as it dissolves in water; it also is

WD-40 provides very little long-term lubrication, especially early
formulations of WD-40. With air flowing past the hinges at high
velocity, the evaporation of WD-40 would increase leaving the hinges with
NO lubrication. But the cracks appear much more like stress corrosion
cracking than anything in WD-40. I know of no ingredients in WD-40 that
would cause stress corrosion cracking.

Does your friend, perchance, sell his own version of WD-40? It sure
sounds like he is stretching facts to dissuade people from using WD-40.


He sells Stabilant.
http://www.stabilant.com/

I got to using Tal 5 from WD-40 company, then they quit making it.
I explained they should have made the can look more like the WD-40
can. It was a better lubricator. I use a lot of CRC 2-26 lately.
My favorite all purpose liquid.

greg

[GregS[_3_]]

In article , "Phil Allison" wrote:

"bigwig = bigwank "


WD 40. Well its the best selling bodge-tastic do it all nothingness
that exists.


** Funny how so many folk find it so useful - then.


Anyway as for WD 40 I am certain it contains silicone..


** It says right on the can " No Silicone. No kerosene ".

But ****wits like YOU can never be convinced of anything.



.... Phil




I never thought of WD-40 as containing silicone. It never ever
seemed to have any silicone slippery feel when dry.

greg

[GregS[_3_]]

In article , (GregS) wrote:
In article , "Dr. Barry L. Ornitz"
wrote:
"GregS" wrote in message
...
I don't know if it was true, and I don't know what Navy.(US) That was
from a person who I will quote below..

As WD-40 contains small amounts of silicone, we advise against its use.
The problem with any product containing silicone it that when it is
exposed to salt, it can form 'waterglass', which ie an excellent
insulator and it is very difficult to remove! In 1962, the US navy
banned its use in sonar hydrophones for that reason. I have friends who
are commercial pilots who sprayed it on wing-flap hinges; the
consequence was that the skin of the flap developed hairline cracks.
The
normal technique of 'Stop drilling' did not prevent the propagation of
the crack.


This still sounds like a Navy fish story to me. Waterglass is sodium
silicate and it is trivial to remove as it dissolves in water; it also is

WD-40 provides very little long-term lubrication, especially early
formulations of WD-40. With air flowing past the hinges at high
velocity, the evaporation of WD-40 would increase leaving the hinges with
NO lubrication. But the cracks appear much more like stress corrosion
cracking than anything in WD-40. I know of no ingredients in WD-40 that
would cause stress corrosion cracking.

Does your friend, perchance, sell his own version of WD-40? It sure
sounds like he is stretching facts to dissuade people from using WD-40.


He sells Stabilant.
http://www.stabilant.com/

I got to using Tal 5 from WD-40 company, then they quit making it.
I explained they should have made the can look more like the WD-40
can. It was a better lubricator. I use a lot of CRC 2-26 lately.
My favorite all purpose liquid.


One of the great things about 2-26, when you push the nozzile
slowly, it comes out in a foam, and seems to penetrate
and stick to materials with ease. It says its plastic safe, and improves
electrical properties right on the can.

I keep thinking, or dreaming, of an old WD-40 can with assemblies
on the can including TV tuners. Am I wrong?

I often coat entire electronics boards with WD-40 after I wash them with water
I actually prefer Bullfrog electrical cleaner and corrosion blocker with VCI's
for this purpose. It also smell sweet like maple syrup, but not sticky.
I just read low odor on the can. Thats a lie.

greg

[bigwig]

On Jul 2, 12:53*am, "Phil Allison" wrote:
"bigwig = bigwank "

WD 40. Well its the best selling bodge-tastic do it all nothingness
that exists.

*** Funny how so many folk find it so useful - *then.

Anyway as for WD 40 I am certain it contains silicone..

** It says right on the can " No Silicone. No kerosene ".

*But *****wits like YOU can never be convinced of anything.

* *.... *Phil

You are a complete ****ing ****. It may well say that it has no
silicone but we were not allowed to use it in the clean room because
it may well do.

Anyway it certainly doesnt say no kerosene, you complete ****in retard
open your remaining eye or are you using them both to watch your self
wank to your own cleverness. Prick.