OK, here is a question for you SPICE users out there. Where can I get
models for assorted tubes, and whose are the most accurate. Im not
just looking for best fitting curves (although that is the most important),
but also ones that model grid current, saturation current, etc. in a
reasonably correct fashion.

Any help would be mucho appreciated :-)

--
Greg

--The software said it requires Win2000 or better, so I installed Linux.

"Greg Pierce"

OK, here is a question for you SPICE users out there.

** I can feel the hush here after that one.


Where can I get models for assorted tubes, and whose are the most
accurate.

** The Spice Girls might be willing to help.


Im not just looking for best fitting curves (although that is the most
important),


** Most of them have nice curves.....


but also ones that model grid current,


** Sounds kinky....


saturation current, etc. in a reasonably correct fashion.

** Correct fashion is always current.


Seriously - mucking about with tube circuit topologies on a PC
screen is missing the whole point.

You really have to get down and dirty with chassis punches, drills,
soldering irons, suffer burnt fingers and the odd HV zap to keep you wide
awake on the job.

Only wimps opt for a software solution in lieu of such full spectrum
fun as this.

Bet you never get the simulation to match with any real tube either.




............ Phil

Hi
Here is some info from a non-spice user FWIW. I'm pretty much a newbie
at this going at it for a year or so and am still using Tube Cad from
John Broskie which is easier but I have been collecting online info on
Spice so i have it when I get up the time and energy.

Here are some potential online sources if you are not already familiar
with them:

Cheers
Craig Ryder

3) The Duncan site has great information about PSpice for tube
circuits. http://www.duncanamps.com/spicevalvesgt.html
3.1) Norman Koren's Spice Tube Model Page:
http://www.normankoren.com/Audio/index.html
3.2) W. Marshall Leach, Spice Models for Vacuum Tube Amplifiers:
http://users.ece.gatech.edu/~mleach/...mp/tubeamp.pdf
3.3) Norman Koren, Improved Vacuum Tube Models for Spice Simulation:
http://www.normankoren.com/Audio/Tub...e_article.html
http://www.normankoren.com/Audio/
3.4 ) Spice Models of Vacuum tubes:
http://plato.phy.ohiou.edu/~cigna/tubes/spice/
3.5) Links to Online Spice Resources: http://www.penzar.com/links.htm
3.6) Pspice.com http://www.pspice.com/models/default.asp includes a
PSpice user forum.
3.7) eCircuit Center Spice Basics:
http://www.ecircuitcenter.com/Basics.htm
3.8) Cadence, Pspice 9.1 student version free download:
http://www.cadencepcb.com/products/d...nt/default.asp
3.9) Paeng Design Spice Page:
http://digilander.libero.it/paeng/cornice.htm
3.95) Linear Technologies: http://www.linear-tech.com/software/: Spice
and schematic software.
3.96) The Tube Model Page:
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaver...422/index.html
3.97) R. Casey:
http://home.netcom.com/~wb2jia/tubes/spice.txt
http://home.netcom.com/~wb2jia/tubes/spice2.txt

"Greg Pierce" wrote

OK, here is a question for you SPICE users out there. Where can I
get
models for assorted tubes, and whose are the most accurate. Im not
just looking for best fitting curves (although that is the most
important),
but also ones that model grid current, saturation current, etc. in
a
reasonably correct fashion.

Any help would be mucho appreciated :-)

Well, Gregg, when I first talked about spice here I was mobbed by
idiots who say you should experiment with real valves (as if we
don't do that too when we need to), so we've come a long way.

My priority is for a saturatable inductor core. I would like to
build a guitar amp.

Duncan's most recent valves are the most up-to-date. His models
have been incorporated into several packages. Have you checked
Duncan's new(ish) forum? Duncan's have been developed with guitar
amps in mind. Perhaps unfortunately for you (less so for me) his
best and most reliable are in PSPICE, and the 3f4 versions seem in
some cases untested translations that need remedial attention.

I have been searching and building for years. It is difficult to
find enough data, particularly concerning grid current, even if you
have a good model. Saturation would be yet another huge
complication.

I have come across several learned articles on alternatives to the
usual equations (rather than Norman and Duncan-type heuristic
modifications). For example, it is possible to build an
interpolating, data-based model, but the documentation for the
underlying spice is difficult to come by for a particular
implementation. Heaps of polycurves and stats functions. Would be
slow anyway.

No model is ever going to get the kinks right, so we can forget
about the small detail, unfortunately. But do we really want to
model the difference between a Sovtek and a Svetlana EL34? Remember
the published curves are not accurate anyway.

One thing my 6CH6 model got unexpectedly right in my amp was grid
current, by pure fluke more or less, because I only regressed on the
anode and screen characteristics. The picture I get of the
concertina anode's voltage dip as its cathode sees a reduction in
impedance when the 6CH6 it is driving falls below Vgk= -1 shockingly
accurate when I hoped it wouldn't be.

Anyway, I would be happy to share all I know...although sometimes I
feel my whole universal picture is so strange as to be
non-transferable.

cheers, Ian

"Craig" wrote

...Here are some potential online sources if you are not already
familiar
with them: ...

Useful, Craig, thanks.

Ian

Phil Allison wrote:
I can feel the hush here after that one. The Spice Girls might be willing to help.
Most of them have nice curves.....
Sounds kinky.... Correct fashion is always current.


Seriously - mucking about with tube circuit topologies on a PC
screen is missing the whole point.

You really have to get down and dirty with chassis punches, drills,
soldering irons, suffer burnt fingers and the odd HV zap to keep you wide
awake on the job.

Only wimps opt for a software solution in lieu of such full spectrum
fun as this.

Bet you never get the simulation to match with any real tube either.




........... Phil

Hail King Phil, Pleasant salutations all-mighty genius King Phil!

Yes Phil!, Of course Phil, Affirmative Phil, your majesty. How could we
be so stupid Phil, You are a genius Phil, Thanks for your insights Phil,
We are wrong, you are so right Phil. Please excuse us while we go
outside and kill ourselves Phil, for we are but mere insectoids compared
to your infinitely superior intellect, wisdom and wit!

Cheers,
Fred
--
+--------------------------------------------+
| Music: http://www3.telus.net/dogstarmusic/ |
| Projects, Vacuum Tubes & other stuff: |
| http://www.dogstar.dantimax.dk |
+--------------------------------------------+

Fred,

Since the Phil threads appeared last week I have him blocked. His majesty
doesn't make a blip on my radar screen.

Carroll
"Fred Nachbaur" wrote in message
news:O4Bfb.10402$da3.1963@edtnps84...


Phil Allison wrote:
I can feel the hush here after that one. The Spice Girls might be
willing to help.
Most of them have nice curves.....
Sounds kinky.... Correct fashion is always current.


Seriously - mucking about with tube circuit topologies on a PC
screen is missing the whole point.

You really have to get down and dirty with chassis punches, drills,
soldering irons, suffer burnt fingers and the odd HV zap to keep you
wide
awake on the job.

Only wimps opt for a software solution in lieu of such full spectrum
fun as this.

Bet you never get the simulation to match with any real tube either.




........... Phil

Hail King Phil, Pleasant salutations all-mighty genius King Phil!

Yes Phil!, Of course Phil, Affirmative Phil, your majesty. How could we
be so stupid Phil, You are a genius Phil, Thanks for your insights Phil,
We are wrong, you are so right Phil. Please excuse us while we go
outside and kill ourselves Phil, for we are but mere insectoids compared
to your infinitely superior intellect, wisdom and wit!

Cheers,
Fred
--
+--------------------------------------------+
| Music: http://www3.telus.net/dogstarmusic/ |
| Projects, Vacuum Tubes & other stuff: |
| http://www.dogstar.dantimax.dk |
+--------------------------------------------+

** I have my answer Fred.

The evil smell coming from you makes Pat Turner's turds smell like
perfume.





........... Phil

prick

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

Phil Allison wrote:

** I have my answer Fred.

The evil smell coming from you makes Pat Turner's turds smell like
perfume.

And if anyone around here is going to seek out turds
and smell them, Ill Phallison is certainly the one.

Lord Valve
Expert

Hi,

How can I translate a Pspice model to a 3f4 model, is there a dictionary?
With the help of
http://digilander.libero.it/teodorom...ntodeExcel.htm, I have
made a Pspice model for the EL500/EL504/PL500/PL504/27GB5/6GB5 tube. It
works well for Pspice, but now I want to use the model for Circuitmaker (I
like the GUI of Circuitmaker)

How should I change the model so it will work for Circuitmaker?

I know a little about spice, but this model is a bit too complicated for me
to change it into a Circuitmaker model. I've tried to use the simpler
version of this model, but the results were not that good.
The value for KG2 is just an assumption (Heck, I don't even know what this
number does, I assume that it is something for the screen current, it is
from the model for the EL34 and nowhere on this page was told how this value
was calculated. But then again, it works.)

..SUBCKT pl504 1 4 2 3 ; P G2 G1 K (PENTODE)

+ PARAMS: MU=4.335825043 EX=2.531919441 KG1=25449.89513 KG2=4200
KG3=902.2424436 KVB=7.988234727
+ CCG=19P CPG1=2P CCP=10P ; NOT SURE ABOUT THAT
RE1 7 0 0.13MEG ; DUMMY SO NODE 7 HAS 2 CONNECTIONS
E1 7 0 VALUE={V(4,3)/MU+V(2,3)+V(1,3)/KG3}
G1 1 3 VALUE={(PWR(V(7),EX)+PWRS(V(7),EX))/(2*KG1)*ATAN(V(1,3)/KVB)}
G2 4 3 VALUE={(EXP(EX*(LOG((V(4,3)/MU)+V(2,3)))))/KG2}

RCP 1 3 1G ; FOR CONVERGENCE
C1 2 3 {CCG} ; CATHODE GRID 1
C2 1 2 {CPG1} ; GRID 1 PLATE
C3 1 3 {CCP} ; CATHODE PLATE
R1 2 5 {RGI} ; FOR GRID CURRENT
D3 5 3 DX ; FOR GRID CURRENT

..MODEL DX D(IS=1N RS=1 CJO=10PF TT=1N)
..ENDS

Thank you in advance
Regards,

Simon

"Choky" wrote in message ...

prick


** Wind bag.



........ Phil

prick
"Phil Allison" wrote in message
u...

Phil Allison wrote:

** I have my answer Fred.

The evil smell coming from you makes Pat Turner's turds smell like
perfume.


Thankfully King Phil has laid that little existential conundrum to rest.
I'm so relieved, it takes a big load of my mind.

Reminds me of a story. So pull up a chair and sit down (or stand up and
push away the chair).

A young seeker comes to a well-known and highly respected guru. "May I
be your disciple" he asks. The guru replies, "Yes, my son, but you must
first bring me gurudakshina [gift for the guru]. You must to out into
the world and find the absolutely worst thing you can find, and bring it
to me."

The boy dutifully goes out, and every day he finds worse and worse
things. Almost a full year elapses, with each day bringing new
revelations. He is almost in despair of ever finding the worst thing,
when one day he's taking a dump and notices the fruit of his labour.
"Aha!" he exclaims, "I've found the worst thing! No-one wants to touch
it, it stinks, it's so ugly no-one even wants to look at it."

He reaches over to pick it up, and a voice comes: "Stop! What are you
doing?"

"Well, you know, I'm taking you to my prospective guru. You're obviously
the worst thing in the world."

Replies the voice, "Well, yesterday I was the rice and vegetables and
lovely deserts, fruits, fancy appetizers, and all those lovely things at
that banquet you attended yesterday. You have touched me, and now I am
this! So what really is the worst thing in the world?"

Humbled, the boy goes back to the guru. "Have you brought me the
gurudakshina I asked for?"

"Yes, Master," says the boy. "I am here."

"You are my disciple."

Cheers,
Fred
--
+--------------------------------------------+
| Music: http://www3.telus.net/dogstarmusic/ |
| Projects: http://dogstar.dantimax.dk |
+--------------------------------------------+

I don't understand. Fred's one of the nicest guys here at RAT.

C.W.

"Phil Allison" wrote in message u...
** I have my answer Fred.

The evil smell coming from you makes Pat Turner's turds smell like
perfume.





.......... Phil

"Casino" wrote in message

I don't understand. Fred's one of the nicest guys here at RAT.


** No he aint.

He is in a evil conspiracy with Pat Turner ( the ugly Aussie) and
others to control what is "allowed" to be posted.

That makes him a NG fascist.




.............. Phil

"Simon" wrote

How can I translate a Pspice model to a 3f4 model, is there a
dictionary?
With the help of
http://digilander.libero.it/teodorom...ntodeExcel.htm,
I have
made a Pspice model for the EL500/EL504/PL500/PL504/27GB5/6GB5
tube. It
works well for Pspice, but now I want to use the model for
Circuitmaker (I
like the GUI of Circuitmaker)

How should I change the model so it will work for Circuitmaker?

Go to Duncan Munro's site and compare his latest Pspice triode
library with his 3f4 version. There are several levels of
difference.

The underlying spice is much the same for all varieties, otherwise
it would not be spice. They all use the same engine, with perhaps a
few tweaks. Vendors have built their own extensions to add
functionality, and shells to automate common tasks and provide a
windows interface.

Whereas most spice vendors have chosen to follow the 3f4/5+XSPICE
route, PSPICE hatched its own syntax.

At the simplest level, a dictionary would be useful, for example
with the difference between X^3 and PWR(X,3). However, even there it
is not a simple translation because of how fractional and negative
powers are handled (or not...Duncan's translations sometimes fall
down on this point). Also the slightly different way of labelling
lines is fairly simple.

At the next level, the difference between URAMP and LIMIT is more
funtional, although they are both used in context to ensure a
returned value cannot be zero or negative (either to avoid a
division by zero or to prevent positive cathode current, for
example).

At another level is the way they handle parameter-passing. Note that
in Duncan's (and your own) Pspice model library, he has set
parameters at the beginning, then cited those parameters in a single
instance of the model code. Each subsequent valve definition then
only has to list its parameter values and pass these to the one
model. In contrast, my version of 3f4 achieves this by use of its
own form of library file. Because there is no convention for this,
Duncan has copied the parameter values into each of many instances
of the model. You may or may not need to do the same for your
translation. I don't know about CircuitMaker but others here do.

cheers, Ian

I just wanted to thank those who replied with useful information or
enlightenment. You have all been very helpful.

Thanks!
--
Greg

--The software said it requires Win2000 or better, so I installed Linux.

On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 11:39:39 +1000, "Phil Allison"
wrote:


"Casino" wrote in message

I don't understand. Fred's one of the nicest guys here at RAT.


** No he aint.

He is in a evil conspiracy with Pat Turner ( the ugly Aussie) and
others to control what is "allowed" to be posted.

That makes him a NG fascist.




............. Phil


phil

you are obviously deranged, how do Pat and Fred, in your opinion,
try and control what is posted? magic woofle dust, invocation to the
gods, the elves at the bottom of the garden? or the deity CISCO?

I have come across another fruit loop on another newsgroup who was
patently unhinged, I fear that you too may be similarly inflicted.

please desist from your diatribe and it only seems to be incititing
you to lower stages of behaviour.

Kind regards

Bill Ramsay.

"Bill Ramsay" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 11:39:39 +1000, "Phil Allison"
wrote:


"Casino" wrote in message

I don't understand. Fred's one of the nicest guys here at RAT.


** No he aint.

He is in a evil conspiracy with Pat Turner ( the ugly Aussie) and
others to control what is "allowed" to be posted.

That makes him a NG fascist.




............. Phil


phil

you are obviously deranged,


** No, I just know lots of stuff that has gone right over your head.



how do Pat and Fred, in your opinion,
try and control what is posted?


** Simple - they **** on anyone who posts what they do not want to see
posted.


( snip rest of insane insults as part of Fred and Pat's campaign.)


** Go **** yourself - Bill.





........ Phil

thanks,

Simon

"Ian Iveson" schreef in bericht
...
"Simon" wrote

How can I translate a Pspice model to a 3f4 model, is there a
dictionary?
With the help of
http://digilander.libero.it/teodorom...ntodeExcel.htm,
I have
made a Pspice model for the EL500/EL504/PL500/PL504/27GB5/6GB5
tube. It
works well for Pspice, but now I want to use the model for
Circuitmaker (I
like the GUI of Circuitmaker)

How should I change the model so it will work for Circuitmaker?

Go to Duncan Munro's site and compare his latest Pspice triode
library with his 3f4 version. There are several levels of
difference.

The underlying spice is much the same for all varieties, otherwise
it would not be spice. They all use the same engine, with perhaps a
few tweaks. Vendors have built their own extensions to add
functionality, and shells to automate common tasks and provide a
windows interface.

Whereas most spice vendors have chosen to follow the 3f4/5+XSPICE
route, PSPICE hatched its own syntax.

At the simplest level, a dictionary would be useful, for example
with the difference between X^3 and PWR(X,3). However, even there it
is not a simple translation because of how fractional and negative
powers are handled (or not...Duncan's translations sometimes fall
down on this point). Also the slightly different way of labelling
lines is fairly simple.

At the next level, the difference between URAMP and LIMIT is more
funtional, although they are both used in context to ensure a
returned value cannot be zero or negative (either to avoid a
division by zero or to prevent positive cathode current, for
example).

At another level is the way they handle parameter-passing. Note that
in Duncan's (and your own) Pspice model library, he has set
parameters at the beginning, then cited those parameters in a single
instance of the model code. Each subsequent valve definition then
only has to list its parameter values and pass these to the one
model. In contrast, my version of 3f4 achieves this by use of its
own form of library file. Because there is no convention for this,
Duncan has copied the parameter values into each of many instances
of the model. You may or may not need to do the same for your
translation. I don't know about CircuitMaker but others here do.

cheers, Ian

............. Phil


phil

you are obviously deranged,


** No, I just know lots of stuff that has gone right over your head.



do tell.



how do Pat and Fred, in your opinion,
try and control what is posted?


** Simple - they **** on anyone who posts what they do not want to see
posted.


au contraire, so they are not fascists and control what is posted,
they just don't agree with you, and likewise, you don't agree with
them. why the hyperbole.?


( snip rest of insane insults as part of Fred and Pat's campaign.)


** Go **** yourself - Bill.

I'm a bit overweight for that, you seem to dislike anyone who may
exhibit a contrary position to your self.

have you always been pathetically inadequate? did your grandfather
dress up in nazi uniforms and not give you any lollies or sweeties
when you were a widdle iddy biddy little boy?

you oviously have a maturity problem, ie. none at all.

you need to get over your delusions of adequecy, and by the way you
are confusing me with someone who gives a ****.

nil ******* carborundum.

as always, kind regards, love and kisses,

your erstwhile non-admirer

bill ramsay






....... Phil

"Bill Ramsay"

** No, I just know lots of stuff that has gone right over your head.

do tell.


** Who can tell anything to a moronic sheep shagger ???



how do Pat and Fred, in your opinion,try and control what is posted?


** Simple - they **** on anyone who posts what they do not want to see
posted.


au contraire,


** Hey sheep shagger - their posts doing that are all over this NG -
so you are BLIND ????


so they are not fascists and control what is posted,


** You have just used your opinion to prove your opinion - sheep
shagger.


they just don't agree with you,


** Same as Hitler just disagreed with all Jews - right ??


Bugger off you bestialist.




......... Phil

On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 18:02:25 +1000, "Phil Allison"
wrote:


"Bill Ramsay"

** No, I just know lots of stuff that has gone right over your head.

do tell.


** Who can tell anything to a moronic sheep shagger ???



ha ha ha ha, sheep shagger, my how original, what are you then,
recognise the traits through past direct experience?



how do Pat and Fred, in your opinion,try and control what is posted?


** Simple - they **** on anyone who posts what they do not want to see
posted.


au contraire,


** Hey sheep shagger - their posts doing that are all over this NG -
so you are BLIND ????



nope, you however are falling into believing your own hyperbole.


so they are not fascists and control what is posted,


** You have just used your opinion to prove your opinion - sheep
shagger.


no i have not, i have used something, which you seem unacustomed to,
called direct observation. i see that you have the sheep shagger
motif again, how quaint.



they just don't agree with you,


** Same as Hitler just disagreed with all Jews - right ??


pulling a long bow there i think, yes that i something i can do,
unlike others.


Bugger off you bestialist.


so you disagree then i take it. grow up, love and kisses
(baaahhhh!!!!)

kind regards


bill ramsay.




........ Phil

I can't help responding to this and similar threads. Way back years ago
with Altec Voice of the Theater horns, Heathkits and Dynakits, 6l6 and 6V6
output tubes I thought I knew something about audio electronics. I read
Tremaine, Audio mag, and the others over and over. But most of the stuff on
here loses me completely so I must go back to school. But thanks for the
cerebral stimulation.
jack

"j" wrote in message
...
I can't help responding to this and similar threads. Way back years ago
with Altec Voice of the Theater horns, Heathkits and Dynakits, 6l6 and 6V6
output tubes I thought I knew something about audio electronics. I read
Tremaine, Audio mag, and the others over and over. But most of the stuff
on
here loses me completely so I must go back to school. But thanks for the
cerebral stimulation.
jack


Hi, Jack,
I hit the same problem.... Years of playing with pencil and paper and
prototype chassis etc... I bought a Spice package.... Fabulous tool !
Six months later realized I did not have the computer skills, was not good
enough at Mathematics, and didn't have the time ... The local college did
evening classes but I don't have the time.
I have the greatest admiration for those who use this technology, and, yes,
it's a great design tool which can get it virtually right before you start
cutting holes and warming up the iron.
Perhaps in years to come things will have advanced enough that dumbos like
me can use it
kind regards
jim

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
u...

"Casino" wrote in message

I don't understand. Fred's one of the nicest guys here at RAT.


** No he aint.

He is in a evil conspiracy with Pat Turner ( the ugly Aussie) and
others to control what is "allowed" to be posted.

That makes him a NG fascist.




............. Phil


No, no, Phil. It is I. I am the NG Fascist. Fred's just following orders.
-dim (back to tourturing children, helpless invalids & small fuzzy animals)

"Bill Ramsay" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 11:39:39 +1000, "Phil Allison"
wrote:


"Casino" wrote in message

I don't understand. Fred's one of the nicest guys here at RAT.


** No he aint.

He is in a evil conspiracy with Pat Turner ( the ugly Aussie) and
others to control what is "allowed" to be posted.

That makes him a NG fascist.




............. Phil


phil

you are obviously deranged, how do Pat and Fred, in your opinion,
try and control what is posted? magic woofle dust, invocation to the
gods, the elves at the bottom of the garden? or the deity CISCO?

I have come across another fruit loop on another newsgroup who was
patently unhinged, I fear that you too may be similarly inflicted.

please desist from your diatribe and it only seems to be incititing
you to lower stages of behaviour.

Kind regards

Bill Ramsay.



Bill, I'm mking Fred run a variety of killbots, and I've intimidated most
folks runnin' newsservers to honor the kills. Sometimes i feel so guilty...
-dim

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
u...

"Bill Ramsay"

** No, I just know lots of stuff that has gone right over your head.

do tell.


** Who can tell anything to a moronic sheep shagger ???


MARIA (sings)
High on a hill was a lonely goatherd
Lay ee odl lay ee odl lay hee hoo
Loud was the voice of the lonely goatherd
Lay ee odl lay ee odl-oo

Folks in a town that was quite remote heard
Lay ee odl lay ee odl lay hee hoo
Lusty and clear from the goatherd's throat heard
Lay ee odl lay ee odl-oo