Hi,

I'll try to make this concise since you've doubtless seen these
newbie questions a thousand times.

I'm a novice sound engineer doing home recording with:

MOTU 828 MkII
A pair of Groove Tubes GT57 class A FET(!) condenser mics
Shure SM58
EV N/D 457A (dynamic mic)

So far I've been running Mics directly into the 828 MkII. Questions:

* It's my understanding that, to make vocals or guitars sound really
good, I need to add compression before the signal goes digital.
Correct?

* If so, would the FMR RNC be an appropriate choice?

* Should I be thinking about using a dedicated Mic pre rather than
just using the 828 MkII?

* If so, is the FMR RNP a good choice?

* Is there any reason I should be thinking about a tube preamp or
compressor (under $1k -- I wouldn't know what to do with a really
fancy unit anyway; I have lots to learn first)?

I am also doing live sound with the above dynamic mics into a
Behringer UB1622FX driving Mackie SRM350s (for what that's worth). I
happen to like the sound of my voice through the EV when I can keep it
from squealing.

* Would compression help the vocals be heard above the band?

* Would the FMR RNC be an appropriate choice for a live compressor?

* Would adding compression increase the tendency toward feedback, and
if so, is there anything I can do about that?


Thanks so much in advance for your sage advice,

--
Dave Abrahams
Boost Consulting
www.boost-consulting.com

On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 08:36:29 -0400, David Abrahams
wrote:

* It's my understanding that, to make vocals or guitars sound really
good, I need to add compression before the signal goes digital.
Correct?

No, incorrect. On a digital system you have more dynamic range
available than any mic or instrument can provide. You can keep peak
levels comfortably under distortion level without any danger of
falling into the noise floor. No need to do any input processing.

A particular preamp may interface well with a particular microphone.
But don't fall for "magic" preamps, particularly cheaper ones
featuring a highly visible tube.

Laurence Payne lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom writes:

On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 08:36:29 -0400, David Abrahams
wrote:

* It's my understanding that, to make vocals or guitars sound really
good, I need to add compression before the signal goes digital.
Correct?

No, incorrect. On a digital system you have more dynamic range
available than any mic or instrument can provide. You can keep peak
levels comfortably under distortion level without any danger of
falling into the noise floor. No need to do any input processing.

Well, I suppose you can do the compression digitally then... but I'm
still given to believe that one generally wants some compression, to
"smooth out" the sound. All bunk?

--
Dave Abrahams
Boost Consulting
www.boost-consulting.com

On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 09:42:45 -0400, David Abrahams
wrote:

Well, I suppose you can do the compression digitally then... but I'm
still given to believe that one generally wants some compression, to
"smooth out" the sound. All bunk?

Compression is a useful tool. But it doesn't have to be
(irretrievably) applied on input.

When we were recording to tape, with a high noise floor, it made sense
to keep input levels high. If compression was acceptable or desirable
it was a good idea to apply it before the input hit tape. Now the
noise floor is lower. If you want compression for artistic reasons or
to improve bad microphone or playing technique, fine. Apply it when
mixing.

If you have a favourite-sounding mic/preamp that includes a
compressor, and if experience tells you that a little compression is
invariably beneficial, sure - use it in the input path. But you
don't HAVE to, as maybe you did in the analogue days.

David Abrahams wrote:

* It's my understanding that, to make vocals or guitars sound really
good, I need to add compression before the signal goes digital.
Correct?

Not really. It makes it sound different. But for the most part you can
compress before or after the conversion and be happy.

* If so, would the FMR RNC be an appropriate choice?

Depends on the sound you're looking for. The RNC is pretty transparent.
It will bring levels up and make things a little denser without changing
the sound very much.

* Should I be thinking about using a dedicated Mic pre rather than
just using the 828 MkII?

Maybe. I've never used the 828.

* If so, is the FMR RNP a good choice?

I have never used one.

* Is there any reason I should be thinking about a tube preamp or
compressor (under $1k -- I wouldn't know what to do with a really
fancy unit anyway; I have lots to learn first)?

I suggest first playing with the software compression features that your
DAW probably already has. Get a sense of what compression does and what
you can use it for.

I am also doing live sound with the above dynamic mics into a
Behringer UB1622FX driving Mackie SRM350s (for what that's worth). I
happen to like the sound of my voice through the EV when I can keep it
from squealing.

I am sorry. You need to look at your mike and speaker placement.

* Would compression help the vocals be heard above the band?

No, it will make your feedback problems considerably worse. It brings up
the level of soft sounds (like ringing).

* Would the FMR RNC be an appropriate choice for a live compressor?

Sure, if you're looking for something like gainriding for a performer
that has vocal control problems, for instance.

* Would adding compression increase the tendency toward feedback, and
if so, is there anything I can do about that?

There isn't anything you can do except to make the gain before feedback
of the rest of the system as good as possible, so that when the
compressor changes the gain, you'll still be okay. That means careful
mike and speaker placement, maybe some room treatment (even just a
carpet scrap on the stage risers sometimes), maybe bringing down your
backline levels, maybe using a parametric and notching out the worst
feedback modes.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"David Abrahams" wrote in message
...

Hi,

I'll try to make this concise since you've doubtless seen these
newbie questions a thousand times.

I'm a novice sound engineer doing home recording with:

MOTU 828 MkII
A pair of Groove Tubes GT57 class A FET(!) condenser mics
Shure SM58
EV N/D 457A (dynamic mic)

So far I've been running Mics directly into the 828 MkII. Questions:

* It's my understanding that, to make vocals or guitars sound really
good, I need to add compression before the signal goes digital.
Correct?

no. compression is not necessary as a preparatory process.


* If so, would the FMR RNC be an appropriate choice?


people speak highly of them here

* Should I be thinking about using a dedicated Mic pre rather than
just using the 828 MkII?

A good dedicated mic pre will surpass teh 828. Do you notice problems now?


* If so, is the FMR RNP a good choice?

* Is there any reason I should be thinking about a tube preamp or
compressor (under $1k -- I wouldn't know what to do with a really
fancy unit anyway; I have lots to learn first)?

Let your ears guide you rather than talk



I am also doing live sound with the above dynamic mics into a
Behringer UB1622FX driving Mackie SRM350s (for what that's worth). I
happen to like the sound of my voice through the EV when I can keep it
from squealing.

* Would compression help the vocals be heard above the band?

* Would the FMR RNC be an appropriate choice for a live compressor?

* Would adding compression increase the tendency toward feedback, and
if so, is there anything I can do about that?


Thanks so much in advance for your sage advice,

--
Dave Abrahams
Boost Consulting
www.boost-consulting.com

(Scott Dorsey) writes:

* Is there any reason I should be thinking about a tube preamp or
compressor (under $1k -- I wouldn't know what to do with a really
fancy unit anyway; I have lots to learn first)?

I suggest first playing with the software compression features that your
DAW probably already has. Get a sense of what compression does and what
you can use it for.

I'm pretty well familiar with what compression does, but mostly my
experience comes from using guitar compressor pedals. From what I've
heard a good studio compressor tends be a lot subtler in its effects.

I am also doing live sound with the above dynamic mics into a
Behringer UB1622FX driving Mackie SRM350s (for what that's worth). I
happen to like the sound of my voice through the EV when I can keep it
from squealing.

I am sorry. You need to look at your mike and speaker placement.

I have it tuned now so it works out pretty well.

* Would compression help the vocals be heard above the band?

No, it will make your feedback problems considerably worse. It brings up
the level of soft sounds (like ringing).

As you can see from below, I suspected that might be a problem, but
that's a separate question. If it doesn't feed back, will a
compressor help keep the vocals audible above the band?

* Would the FMR RNC be an appropriate choice for a live compressor?

Sure, if you're looking for something like gainriding

gainriding? Best Google can tell me is "intelligent compression."

for a performer that has vocal control problems, for instance.

Well, I'm not a great singer (though I am learning) and I'll be the
first to admit it.

* Would adding compression increase the tendency toward feedback, and
if so, is there anything I can do about that?

There isn't anything you can do except to make the gain before feedback
of the rest of the system as good as possible,

How do you measure "goodness?"

so that when the compressor changes the gain, you'll still be okay.
That means careful mike and speaker placement, maybe some room
treatment (even just a carpet scrap on the stage risers sometimes),

Oh, I definitely need room treatment. But that's a whole other bag o'
worms.

maybe bringing down your backline levels,

Backline? Sorry, I did say I was a novice.

maybe using a parametric and notching out the worst feedback modes.

Yeah, I have a Feedback Destroyer Pro but I've decided I'm better off
without it.

--
Dave Abrahams
Boost Consulting
www.boost-consulting.com

"nappy" writes:

* Should I be thinking about using a dedicated Mic pre rather than
just using the 828 MkII?

A good dedicated mic pre will surpass teh 828. Do you notice problems now?

Not yet; it sounds pretty good to me, but then I don't know what to
listen for. I figure I can only know what "better" sounds like by
comparison.

* If so, is the FMR RNP a good choice?

* Is there any reason I should be thinking about a tube preamp or
compressor (under $1k -- I wouldn't know what to do with a really
fancy unit anyway; I have lots to learn first)?

Let your ears guide you rather than talk

Thanks; it's good to know that, at least according to some "talk" on
rec.audio.pro, I don't *have* to lay out more cash ;-)

Cheers,

--
Dave Abrahams
Boost Consulting
www.boost-consulting.com

David Abrahams wrote:
(Scott Dorsey) writes:

* Is there any reason I should be thinking about a tube preamp or
compressor (under $1k -- I wouldn't know what to do with a really
fancy unit anyway; I have lots to learn first)?

I suggest first playing with the software compression features that your
DAW probably already has. Get a sense of what compression does and what
you can use it for.

I'm pretty well familiar with what compression does, but mostly my
experience comes from using guitar compressor pedals. From what I've
heard a good studio compressor tends be a lot subtler in its effects.

It can be, yes. Play with the software and see. It can also be pretty
aggressive if you want it to be.

I am also doing live sound with the above dynamic mics into a
Behringer UB1622FX driving Mackie SRM350s (for what that's worth). I
happen to like the sound of my voice through the EV when I can keep it
from squealing.

I am sorry. You need to look at your mike and speaker placement.

I have it tuned now so it works out pretty well.

Wait, I thought you said you had feedback issues?

As you can see from below, I suspected that might be a problem, but
that's a separate question. If it doesn't feed back, will a
compressor help keep the vocals audible above the band?

No more than just a person riding the levels will. Probably less effectively
than a person riding the levels.

* Would the FMR RNC be an appropriate choice for a live compressor?

Sure, if you're looking for something like gainriding

gainriding? Best Google can tell me is "intelligent compression."

Slow gain changes, to even levels out, rather than faster change in an
attempt to pump average levels up closer to peaks.

* Would adding compression increase the tendency toward feedback, and
if so, is there anything I can do about that?

There isn't anything you can do except to make the gain before feedback
of the rest of the system as good as possible,

How do you measure "goodness?"

With the master fader. How much headroom over the nominal level can you
crank the master fader up before the syetem feeds back?

If you have 12 dB between your normal level and the feedback level, you
are fine. If you have 6 dB, you are pushing it. If you have 2 dB, you
are in trouble.

so that when the compressor changes the gain, you'll still be okay.
That means careful mike and speaker placement, maybe some room
treatment (even just a carpet scrap on the stage risers sometimes),

Oh, I definitely need room treatment. But that's a whole other bag o'
worms.

Where are you performing? Your goal is to keep the signal from the
mains and monitors out of the mikes. That might involve reducing
reflections or repositioning mikes and speakers.

maybe bringing down your backline levels,

Backline? Sorry, I did say I was a novice.

Instrument amps, drums, etc.. Everything on stage that makes live sound
with the PA off.

maybe using a parametric and notching out the worst feedback modes.

Yeah, I have a Feedback Destroyer Pro but I've decided I'm better off
without it.

I have never used it. What don't you like about it? Can you set the
thing up, make the system feedback as much as possible, set the filters
and then lock them all into place so they never move? The Sabine units
that Behringer modelled their idea after will allow you to do this
easily... you set the notches at the worst two or three feedback modes
during your soundcheck, then leave them locked down and shut all the other
filters off.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

(Scott Dorsey) writes:

David Abrahams wrote:
(Scott Dorsey) writes:

I am also doing live sound with the above dynamic mics into a
Behringer UB1622FX driving Mackie SRM350s (for what that's worth). I
happen to like the sound of my voice through the EV when I can keep it
from squealing.

I am sorry. You need to look at your mike and speaker placement.

I have it tuned now so it works out pretty well.

Wait, I thought you said you had feedback issues?

Sometimes, depending on the mood of the room and mic/speaker placement
and levels.

As you can see from below, I suspected that might be a problem, but
that's a separate question. If it doesn't feed back, will a
compressor help keep the vocals audible above the band?

No more than just a person riding the levels will. Probably less effectively
than a person riding the levels.

I don't have a person to ride the levels, though ;-)

* Would the FMR RNC be an appropriate choice for a live compressor?

Sure, if you're looking for something like gainriding

gainriding? Best Google can tell me is "intelligent compression."

Slow gain changes, to even levels out, rather than faster change in an
attempt to pump average levels up closer to peaks.

I see. Like a person riding the levels, right?

* Would adding compression increase the tendency toward feedback, and
if so, is there anything I can do about that?

There isn't anything you can do except to make the gain before feedback
of the rest of the system as good as possible,

How do you measure "goodness?"

With the master fader. How much headroom over the nominal level can you
crank the master fader up before the syetem feeds back?

If you have 12 dB between your normal level and the feedback level, you
are fine. If you have 6 dB, you are pushing it. If you have 2 dB, you
are in trouble.

Thanks.

so that when the compressor changes the gain, you'll still be okay.
That means careful mike and speaker placement, maybe some room
treatment (even just a carpet scrap on the stage risers sometimes),

Oh, I definitely need room treatment. But that's a whole other bag o'
worms.

Where are you performing?

So far, in my basement practice space/home studio. Have to finish the
demo recording to get gigs

Your goal is to keep the signal from the
mains and monitors out of the mikes. That might involve reducing
reflections or repositioning mikes and speakers.

Yes, I need bass traps to start with. That part of the room is really
resonant.

maybe bringing down your backline levels,

Backline? Sorry, I did say I was a novice.

Instrument amps, drums, etc.. Everything on stage that makes live sound
with the PA off.

Okay. A challenge sometimes in this room.

maybe using a parametric and notching out the worst feedback modes.

Yeah, I have a Feedback Destroyer Pro but I've decided I'm better off
without it.

I have never used it. What don't you like about it?

One of the channels introduces a faint squealing noise (apparently as
the filters search for peaks). Aside from that I couldn't get it
tuned so that it didn't make everything sound bad. Seemed to add a
lot of mud.

Can you set the thing up, make the system feedback as much as
possible, set the filters and then lock them all into place so they
never move?

Yes, that's what you do with it.

The Sabine units that Behringer modelled their idea after will allow
you to do this easily... you set the notches at the worst two or
three feedback modes during your soundcheck, then leave them locked
down and shut all the other filters off.

I think there are just too many powerful nodes in my room to make this
really effective. Treatment is a big project though, and will soak up
some valuable space because bass traps need to be spaced from the
wall. So for right now I have to take more expedient measures.

--
Dave Abrahams
Boost Consulting
www.boost-consulting.com

"David Abrahams" wrote in message
...

Thanks; it's good to know that, at least according to some "talk" on
rec.audio.pro, I don't *have* to lay out more cash ;-)

That's the most important thing to understand .. I think.



Cheers,

--
Dave Abrahams
Boost Consulting
www.boost-consulting.com