I'm in line to do an orchestral recording, including a choir. Those in
charge have been only moderately happy with the previous two mic in
front standard. One useful complaint was too much of the hall.
What comes to mind is some kind of abbreviated film date approach.
Get a nice front stereo track, and maybe stereo pairs closer to the
different sections.
This will be recorded in their hall. No audience. They expect editing
will be needed in the end.
I would like to limit the channels to 8, because that's my present
limit, though I would rent additional equipment for good reasons.
Several questions for those with eperience in this area:
1-How would you set up 8 mics? What kind of phase problems should I
expect, and how would I fix them?
2-What mics, where?
3-Which pre-amps.
This will be done in Pro Tools.
I have a good selection of mic's, which I won't mention, hoping not to
taint the advice.

Side note: Frankly, I am not the best choice for this gig, I'm a "pop"
music kind of guy, but I need the gig...I imagine we've all been
there.

see12mic

I'm going to stick my stupid neck out on this one...

Position the orchestra in front of the choir, with the orchestra facing the
choir (ie, back to "audience"). Or vice versa. About 10' apart.

Use just two mics -- spaced ribbons (figure-8s). That's it.

(cringing as rocks are thrown)

In article ,
wrote:

1-How would you set up 8 mics? What kind of phase problems should I
expect, and how would I fix them?

phase is your friend, it gives you the sense of space; don't worry about
it if the wiring is correct.

2-What mics, where?

in front of the orch, ORTF stereo mains, w/ omni outrigger on each side
10-15 ft from center, all in a line approx 6ft behind conductor and up
high looking down into the center of the orch; find the sweet spot in
placement of the ortf mains. matched pair neumann 140 (card)/131 (flat
omni), equivilents in schoeps/b&k/sennheiser will work too

wide cardioid for each of the 4 choir sections; bass, bari, alto, sops
mix to taste, large diaphram won't hurt you here, neumann 170, 89 etc

3-Which pre-amps.
whatever you have that's decent, room tone and people noise will mask
any residual noise of the equipment so long as it's clean and fast
responding. two groups of 4 matched pres is ok.

bring up the ortf, add sense of space with the omnis, then fill in the
choir mics.

it's up to the conductor and performers after that.

if you can't get it with this, it ain't gonna happen.
--
Digital Services Recording Studios
http://www.digisrvs.com

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
I'm going to stick my stupid neck out on this one...

Position the orchestra in front of the choir, with the orchestra facing
the
choir (ie, back to "audience"). Or vice versa. About 10' apart.

Use just two mics -- spaced ribbons (figure-8s). That's it.

(cringing as rocks are thrown)


no rocks from me. i think it's an elegant plan.

i'd ask a couple of questions though.
will there be any solos from the choir?
how many tracks do you have to work with? 2? (i know you have 8 mic
channels)

also, how many piece choir and orch?
any special instruments that you you just have to get on tape?

With your two mic in front arrangement what microphone pattern and type of
mic's were you using. How far back were they? What height were they
mounted.

What is the size and reverb character of the hall? Is a picture of the
hall available online to give us an idea what you have to work with? What
is the size of the orchestra and choir involved? Is it a youth or adult
choir? Do you have a Choir shell available?

Rgds:
Eric
www.webermusic.com

wrote in message
om...
I'm in line to do an orchestral recording, including a choir. Those in
charge have been only moderately happy with the previous two mic in
front standard. One useful complaint was too much of the hall.
What comes to mind is some kind of abbreviated film date approach.
Get a nice front stereo track, and maybe stereo pairs closer to the
different sections.
This will be recorded in their hall. No audience. They expect editing
will be needed in the end.
I would like to limit the channels to 8, because that's my present
limit, though I would rent additional equipment for good reasons.
Several questions for those with eperience in this area:
1-How would you set up 8 mics? What kind of phase problems should I
expect, and how would I fix them?
2-What mics, where?
3-Which pre-amps.
This will be done in Pro Tools.
I have a good selection of mic's, which I won't mention, hoping not to
taint the advice.

Side note: Frankly, I am not the best choice for this gig, I'm a "pop"
music kind of guy, but I need the gig...I imagine we've all been
there.

see12mic

wrote:
I'm in line to do an orchestral recording, including a choir. Those in
charge have been only moderately happy with the previous two mic in
front standard. One useful complaint was too much of the hall.
What comes to mind is some kind of abbreviated film date approach.
Get a nice front stereo track, and maybe stereo pairs closer to the
different sections.

I would tell you not to give up on stereo miking yet. How are you setting
up and have you tried various different configurations?

If you have too much of the hall, get the mikes in closer, or use mikes
with a tighter pattern.

This will be recorded in their hall. No audience. They expect editing
will be needed in the end.
I would like to limit the channels to 8, because that's my present
limit, though I would rent additional equipment for good reasons.
Several questions for those with eperience in this area:
1-How would you set up 8 mics? What kind of phase problems should I
expect, and how would I fix them?

Well, first find out what they want it to sound like. I'd start with
several mikes on each section and mix them down to an individual stem
for each section, then you record eight of those submixes.

I have a tendency to go for ribbon mikes on close-miked choirs and to
do a lot of spotting on strings to get that mushy Barry Manilow sound
for this kind of thing, because that is usually what the situation
calls for. But you need to sit down and find out what the concertmaster
wants to begin with.

2-What mics, where?
3-Which pre-amps.
This will be done in Pro Tools.
I have a good selection of mic's, which I won't mention, hoping not to
taint the advice.

What mikes are you using right now, and how are you setting them up?
Can you do to some rehearsals to dial the sound in?

Heavy close-miking will give you a very particular sound... it's one that
works well on film gigs but not one that I like at all for general classical
jobs. Light spotting added to a main pair will give you something the
concertmaster will be probably a lot happier with, but if you don't start
out with a good main pair that won't work at all.

I really don't like spotting on typical classical gigs except as a last
resort.

Side note: Frankly, I am not the best choice for this gig, I'm a "pop"
music kind of guy, but I need the gig...I imagine we've all been
there.

So, subcontract it and take a cut!
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Hi:
I have a Mix TDM, I have 8 mic pres, so I can record 8 tracks at a
time. That's the limit of what I own. I own Focusrites, Neves, and a
symetrix (mod'ed). I own several of the older AKG family line (C12's,
C28's, 451's and Blue lollipop's).

I haven't met with anyone, I was just asked about my interest. I don't
know the hall size. I haven't heard the recording yet with "too much
hall". I don't know about the shell.

I can't imagine me telling them how to set up for the performance
(choir across from Orch), from my experience of not telling a drummer
how to set up his drums.

It sounds like a clearer, less roomy recording is the objective. But I
won't have a lot of tracks to get it.

see12mic

I have a tendency to go for ribbon mikes on close-miked choirs...

The reason I suggested ribbons was that they do a good job of suppressing the
early-arrival ambience that makes recordings sound overly-reverberant. And as
long as you've got ribbons -- why not put the orchestra _behind_ them?

Obviously, experimentation is required, regardless of what setup you use. Hope
they give you time for it.

wrote:

I haven't met with anyone, I was just asked about my interest. I don't
know the hall size. I haven't heard the recording yet with "too much
hall". I don't know about the shell.

Wait, so you did not make the recording with "too much hall?" Do you even
have any clue how it was made?

It sounds like a clearer, less roomy recording is the objective. But I
won't have a lot of tracks to get it.

If you have one, you should be just fine. Two tracks for stereo would be
even nicer.

You're going to need to get some appropriate mikes, though.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Good luck first of all... 8 channels should be plenty for this.

My setup- Stereo pair over conductor- usually a blumlein pair.
Wide spaced omnis usually about the 2nd or 3rd stand of violins/cellos in
front of the orchestra (in line with the stereo mic)
Spot on the woodwinds- usually a spaced pair at *very* low level and time
aligned. (these are completely left out sometimes- depends on the room and
the size ensemble)
2 mics on the choir- almost always omnis, but I also really like Schoeps
MK-21 capsules for this use.

95% of your orchestral sound will come from the front mics and probably 70%
of your choral sound will come from those mics. With the choir, position
mics high and spaced to divide the group equally... In your choir sound,
you do not want to hear individual voices sticking out- rather it is a
unified ensemble sound.

You likely won't have phase issues with this number of mics. You will if
there are lots of spots, but for this number of mics, you should be fine.
The phase issues that do exist naturally will help the sound.

As for mics, My first choice for the stereo mic is usually an AKG426 or
recently I've had good luck with the Royer SF-24. Your stereo pair can also
be an ORTF pair and for that I like either Schoeps MK4's or Sennheiser MKH
40's. My omnis are usually DPA 4006's. I do like Schoeps MK2 and the MK5
(in omni) as well. The 5's seem to do well with choirs... On the choir you
could also get away with large dia. mics as well... I've used 414EB's,
U87's, TLM 170's and other mics...

--Ben

--
Benjamin Maas
Fifth Circle Audio
Los Angeles, CA
http://www.fifthcircle.com

Please remove "Nospam" from address for replies

wrote in message ...
I'm in line to do an orchestral recording, including a choir. Those in
charge have been only moderately happy with the previous two mic in
front standard. One useful complaint was too much of the hall.
What comes to mind is some kind of abbreviated film date approach.
Get a nice front stereo track, and maybe stereo pairs closer to the
different sections.
This will be recorded in their hall. No audience. They expect editing
will be needed in the end.
I would like to limit the channels to 8, because that's my present
limit, though I would rent additional equipment for good reasons.
Several questions for those with eperience in this area:
1-How would you set up 8 mics? What kind of phase problems should I
expect, and how would I fix them?
2-What mics, where?
3-Which pre-amps.
This will be done in Pro Tools.
I have a good selection of mic's, which I won't mention, hoping not to
taint the advice.

Side note: Frankly, I am not the best choice for this gig, I'm a "pop"
music kind of guy, but I need the gig...I imagine we've all been
there.

see12mic

wrote in message . com...
I'm in line to do an orchestral recording, including a choir. Those in
charge have been only moderately happy with the previous two mic in
front standard. One useful complaint was too much of the hall.
What comes to mind is some kind of abbreviated film date approach.
Get a nice front stereo track, and maybe stereo pairs closer to the
different sections.
This will be recorded in their hall. No audience. They expect editing
will be needed in the end.
I would like to limit the channels to 8, because that's my present
limit, though I would rent additional equipment for good reasons.
Several questions for those with eperience in this area:
1-How would you set up 8 mics? What kind of phase problems should I
expect, and how would I fix them?
2-What mics, where?
3-Which pre-amps.
This will be done in Pro Tools.
I have a good selection of mic's, which I won't mention, hoping not to
taint the advice.

Side note: Frankly, I am not the best choice for this gig, I'm a "pop"
music kind of guy, but I need the gig...I imagine we've all been
there.

see12mic

I agree that often, a two-mic setup can sound like there is too much
hall. If done correctly, it can be quite good. But typically, more
than two mics are used today for orchestral recording.

Frankly, what you have to do is very challenging, particularly if you
have not done much of this type of work before...

Having said that, here's what I would probably do as a starting point:

1. Have the orchestra and choir facing each other (as Mr. Sommerwick
suggests)
2. Use a three mic setup for the orchestra, with one mic over the
violins with the stand just back from the front row of violins and
about 1/3 of the way back (to the left) from the first chair player,
one mic in front of the woodwinds, with the stand just in front of the
center of the woodwind section, and one mic over the celli with the
stand about 1/3 of the way to the right of the first chair player. (I
hope this makes sense)
3. For these mics, I would probably choose small-diaphragm condensers
with wide cardioid pattern. KM84s are pretty good for this, as they
are a little more "generous" on pickup than some of the newer mics,
and they sound very nice.
4. For the choir (how big is it?) I would probably use 3 mics across
the choir, with the same kind of mics as for the orchestra.
5. Then I would figure out where the last two mics might be needed
based on soloists or "quiet spots" in either the orchestra or choir,
i.e. harp, etc.
6. You'll get a fair amount of bleed in all the mics from the other
areas, but because the null of the mics is pointed at the opposite
group, it should be OK.
7. Put the mics fairly high up, maybe 10 to 12 feet up, pointing down
at perhaps a 30 to 45 deg. angle. This is so that the distance from
the front of the group to the mics and the rear of the group to the
mics is not such a big difference. Use the angle of the mics to
"overshoot" the front row or two and point towards the back of the
group.
8. Put the choir on risers, maybe three tiers, depending on the size
(20 to 25 is about right for 3 tiers)
9. If you get too much "spotlighting" switch to omnis.
10. If you get too much hall, switch to a slightly tighter pattern
(say, "standard" cardioid)

Hope this helps.

Karl Winkler
Lectrosonics, Inc.
http://www.lectrosonics.com

The time alignment issues aka "phase problems" (I hate that term) will be
no
different from a drum kit,

Why do you hate that term? It is the correct one.

What I detest is the use of the word phase when the correct term is polarity.
When polarity is reversed, there is no change of phase because there is no time
element involved. Phase always involves time., polarity does not.
Richard H. Kuschel
"I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty

What I detest is the use of the word phase when the correct
term is polarity. When polarity is reversed, there is no change
of phase because there is no time element involved. Phase
always involves time, polarity does not.

Well... There is a distinction between time and phase. "Phase" is relative
timing. "Time" is absolute timing. Roughly.

Richard Kuschel wrote:

The time alignment issues aka "phase problems" (I hate that term) will be
no
different from a drum kit,

Why do you hate that term? It is the correct one.

What I detest is the use of the word phase when the correct term is polarity.

It's not a phase problem, it's a comb filtering problem caused by differing
phase on multiple inputs. The phase is just one part of the problem.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

wrote:

I'm in line to do an orchestral recording, including a choir.

OK.

[Cookbook Recipe BEGIN]

Choir behind orchestra (that is where they would be naturally), 2 high
mic stands, manfrotto has one or more photo light stands that may be
usable, pair of cardioids on orchestra, stand 4 feet behind conductor,
pair of omni's on choir; omni's on choir also support woodwind.

[Cookbook Recipe END]

Those in charge have been only moderately happy with the
previous two mic in front standard.

What mics, where, how high, angled how?

One useful complaint was too much of the hall.

Too far away or too high.

What comes to mind is some kind of abbreviated film date approach.

This is not film sound. Orchestral recording for film sound is a
different genre, and usually drier.

Get a nice front stereo track, and maybe stereo pairs closer to the
different sections.

To boil a whole potato: boil it whole. You can not split a potato up and
boil it in segments to make it faster and then re-assemble it.

This will be recorded in their hall. No audience.

It may or may not be advantagous to have some carpets to drape over the
seats.

They expect editing will be needed in the end.

Why? - couldn't resist - yes, it will, for all kinds of reasons. But
surely they can aim at playing a movement at a time.

I would like to limit the channels to 8, because that's my present
limit,

Above we're at 4, add a center omni and a pair of room mics and the
count is 7, add a center omni (use with great caution) on choir and it
is 8.

though I would rent additional equipment for good reasons.
Several questions for those with eperience in this area:
1-How would you set up 8 mics?

I wouldn't. I would use a single pair of cardiods suitably placed. See
my site for a photographic hint.

What kind of phase problems should I
expect, and how would I fix them?

None, but you may want to delay something a few milliseconds.

2-What mics, where?

Addressed above.

3-Which pre-amps.

Symetrix 302's will probably do a good job at a good budget.

This will be done in Pro Tools.
I have a good selection of mic's, which I won't mention, hoping not to
taint the advice.

Suitable mics in this context are small membrane linear condenser types,
generally of Danish (DPA), German (Schoeps, Sennheiser) or Austrian
(AKG) origin, AKG CK451's CK1 capsule has a good far reach due to their
slighly bright upper treble.

Side note: Frankly, I am not the best choice for this gig, I'm a "pop"
music kind of guy, but I need the gig...I imagine we've all been
there.

Deploying just a pair of mics is not easy, it takes time to learn what
to listen for when setting them up. A 6 mic setup is less easy, but you
will gain some ability to adjust the imaging by deploying 2 pairs and a
room pair because it allows the main pairs to be somewhat closer. Center
mics are just a "special case", and they may just as well be
detrimental, but multitracking is assumed. If you can't multitrack then
stick to main card's and choir omni's. Start out with the mics some 10
feet up.

Someone either will suggest or has already suggested a jecklin disk, it
is just a somewhat different approach, it will image differently, it may
well work very well, it is just different. Initial mic locations should
probably be the same.

Different angling of the mics causes all kinds of variations, also when
using omnis, 5 degrees may be a large increment when adjusting.

Mic axis should generally be aimed at the rear horisontal edge of the
area to cover because having the front of the orchestra off axis below
the mic pair provides a perspective correction and prevents the front
left and right sides from getting "loudspeaker located".

Your mileage may vary wildly.

see12mic


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************

Sugarite wrote:

You're in the unfavorable position of needing to close-mic

Why?


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************

This is not film sound. Orchestral recording for film sound is a
different genre, and usually drier.

Sometimes it's not so much the micing technique that differs as the
recording space itself.




"I'm beginning to suspect that your problem is the gap between
what you say and what you think you have said."
-george (paraphrased)

wrote in message
om...
I'm in line to do an orchestral recording, including a choir. Those
in
charge have been only moderately happy with the previous two mic in
front standard. One useful complaint was too much of the hall.
What comes to mind is some kind of abbreviated film date approach.
Get a nice front stereo track, and maybe stereo pairs closer to the
different sections.
This will be recorded in their hall. No audience. They expect
editing
will be needed in the end.
I would like to limit the channels to 8, because that's my present
limit, though I would rent additional equipment for good reasons.
Several questions for those with eperience in this area:
1-How would you set up 8 mics? What kind of phase problems should I
expect, and how would I fix them?
2-What mics, where?
3-Which pre-amps.
This will be done in Pro Tools.
I have a good selection of mic's, which I won't mention, hoping not
to
taint the advice.

My advice, having done this before, is to put the choir in the
audience seats. Use an ORTF pair for the orchestra, and another one
for the choir. You may need a couple of flanking omnis to pick up the
far left and right sides of the orchestra.

Arrange the choir in a semicircle so that all singers are equidistant
from the ORTF pair.

This leaves room for 2 more mikes, which should be placed to make the
director happy.

As for preamps; use a standard 8-channel, 8-bus mixer.

Norm Strong

normanstrong wrote:

My advice, having done this before, is to put the choir in the
audience seats.

OK, there were other replies suggesting choir and orchestra facing each
other. Then, where will the conductor place his attention?

My experience with a more conventional setup in a concert situations is
that an orchestra conductor is almost exclusively focused on the
orchestra and the choir wont get the attention it needs. And vice versa.
Wont a setup like that exaggerate such a behaviour from the conductor?
Regardless of how he stands, he'll have half the crew behind his back.

/L

--
lars farm // http://www.farm.se

normanstrong wrote:

My advice, having done this before, is to put the choir in the
audience seats. Use an ORTF pair for the orchestra, and another
one for the choir.

If doing so should be applicable then DO remember to adhere to absolute
left and right ref the lenght axis of the setup.

Norm Strong


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************

I have had some success with this setup as well.

Scott


William Sommerwerck wrote:
: I'm going to stick my stupid neck out on this one...

: Position the orchestra in front of the choir, with the orchestra facing the
: choir (ie, back to "audience"). Or vice versa. About 10' apart.

: Use just two mics -- spaced ribbons (figure-8s). That's it.

: (cringing as rocks are thrown)

I have had some success with this setup as well.

Scott


William Sommerwerck wrote:
: I'm going to stick my stupid neck out on this one...

: Position the orchestra in front of the choir, with the orchestra facing the
: choir (ie, back to "audience"). Or vice versa. About 10' apart.

: Use just two mics -- spaced ribbons (figure-8s). That's it.

: (cringing as rocks are thrown)

William Sommerwerck wrote:
: Position the orchestra in front of the choir, with the orchestra facing the
: choir (ie, back to "audience"). Or vice versa. About 10' apart.

Oh, of course, if you decide to multitrack with the choir and orchestra
facing each other, remember that L for the choir is R for the orchestra
and vice versa. That is, if you pan based on the way the orchestra is
facing, pan the reverse for the choir. Otherwise, you'll get some REALLY
wierd imaging

Scott

William Sommerwerck wrote:
: Position the orchestra in front of the choir, with the orchestra facing the
: choir (ie, back to "audience"). Or vice versa. About 10' apart.

Oh, of course, if you decide to multitrack with the choir and orchestra
facing each other, remember that L for the choir is R for the orchestra
and vice versa. That is, if you pan based on the way the orchestra is
facing, pan the reverse for the choir. Otherwise, you'll get some REALLY
wierd imaging

Scott