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#41
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"Are Modern Recording Practices Damaging Music?"
William Sommerwerck wrote:
Multiple brain studies have shown how much of the brain "lights up" when musically stimulated. You can get the same effect by sticking miniature Christmas-tree lights up your nose. Why does this make me think of Steve Martin singing "It's Just Impossible" and sticking a piano up his nose? ---Jeff |
#42
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"Are Modern Recording Practices Damaging Music?"
William Sommerwerck wrote:
"hank alrich" wrote in message ... William Sommerwerck wrote: Of course, recordings have an important place. I was listening to the Mahler 3rd and the Kindertotenlieder this morning. Without recordings, it's unlikely I would have ever this music. Get ourself a piano, and turn off the stereo. g If I can get my mortgage company to reduce the interest to 3% or lower, I'll be able to retire without having to worry about paying my bills. (Coincidentally, I'll be speaking to them today.) In such a case, I will doubtless find time for music lessons. When I was much younger, my mother wanted to get a piano (she could sort-of play), but it was under the condition that I'd take lessons and stick with them. As they'd never tried to encourage any interest in good music, I said no. In retrospect, I wish I'd said yes, then abandoned the lessons, leaving them stuck with the piano. I hurt my parents, but not anywhere nearly as much as I could have or should have. I sympathize with you, William. Since I already brought up my background in an OT thread, I don't want to threadjack this one. But suffice it to say, I feel your pain, my friend. ---Jeff |
#43
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"Are Modern Recording Practices Damaging Music?"
ChrisCoaster writes:
On Feb 13, 8:11=A0am, "William Sommerwerck" wrote: "ChrisCoaster" wrote in message ... On Feb 13, 6:25 am, "William Sommerwerck" wrote: Have you seen photographs of Frank Sinatra's recording sessions? He performed "live", in front of the orchestra, in what I assume was a studio designed specifically for pleasing-sounding recordings, and without (IIRC) a plethora of mics. Your last paragraph reminds me of something I've been dying to do for some years now: =A0Experiment with recording techniques that involve only as many microphones as humans have ears. Seriously! Think about how we hear andt it'll make sense. You must be very new to recording. Simply-miked stereo recordings have be= en around for nearly 60 years. When I made live recordings, I almost always used only two mics. I did, however, make Ambisonic recordings using three mics, and quad recordings using four. The "correct" number of mics has no necessary relationship to the number = of ears we have. The issue is whether the recording contains the necessary directional cues, and whether they can be correctly presented during playback. ______ So then perhaps the industry should put more effort into those techniques instead of quickly resorting to simple 'pan-pot' mono with a dozen or more mics and racks of fx. As I recall music is supposed to come from a stage - not a small box with blinking lights & knobs. If it could only be that simple. But often it's not. Much depends on the players, the space, and the music. In the case of, say, a large symphonic/choral ensemble, you're attempting to translate all that plus the big recording space into a small playback space at home -- and not lose something important in the process. (Also, you're trying to make up for the lost visual element plus the "at the moment" excitement of seeing a large ensemble live. And, underlying all of that are the substantial short-comings of even the best microphones and speakers.) Spots **are tools** that can help you do that translation, making up some ground for the lost visuals and transducer failings. But it is a matter of judgement -- you have to know what the music should sound like and what feelings it should evoke (thus my frequent harping that engineers need to go to unamplified live music events as often as they can). Mis-use spots and it's awful; use them properly and no one will identify that you've used spots. Rather, you've maintained a delightful illusion that a lone stereo pair rarely can (not saying it can't; but it is rare). YMMV Frank Mobile Audio -- |
#44
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"Are Modern Recording Practices Damaging Music?"
ChrisCoaster wrote:
So then perhaps the industry should put more effort into those techniques instead of quickly resorting to simple 'pan-pot' mono with a dozen or more mics and racks of fx. As I recall music is supposed to come from a stage - not a small box with blinking lights & knobs. On raw-tracks.com you will find some practice mixes I made with tracks I purchased there. They are characterized by using real stereo engineering in the mix process even though I do not state that in the on site notes. To learn real stereo: get a pair of mics, an R44, a pair of mic cables and a 12 feet manfrotto stand and locate a chamber music society. Kind regards Peter Larsen |
#45
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"Are Modern Recording Practices Damaging Music?"
On Feb 13, 7:29*am, ChrisCoaster wrote:
On Feb 13, 8:11*am, "William Sommerwerck" wrote: "ChrisCoaster" wrote in message ... On Feb 13, 6:25 am, "William Sommerwerck" wrote: Have you seen photographs of Frank Sinatra's recording sessions? He performed "live", in front of the orchestra, in what I assume was a studio designed specifically for pleasing-sounding recordings, and without (IIRC) a plethora of mics. Your last paragraph reminds me of something I've been dying to do for some years now: *Experiment with recording techniques that involve only as many microphones as humans have ears. Seriously! Think about how we hear andt it'll make sense. You must be very new to recording. Simply-miked stereo recordings have been around for nearly 60 years. When I made live recordings, I almost always used only two mics. I did, however, make Ambisonic recordings using three mics, and quad recordings using four. The "correct" number of mics has no necessary relationship to the number of ears we have. The issue is whether the recording contains the necessary directional cues, and whether they can be correctly presented during playback. ______ So then perhaps the industry should put more effort into those techniques instead of quickly resorting to simple 'pan-pot' mono with a dozen or more mics and racks of fx. *As I recall music is supposed to come from a stage - not a small box with blinking lights & knobs. Hee's the problem with doing that in classical music: you're paying 75-100 musicians scale for being there. Under those circumstances time is money, lots of money, and you don't have the luxury of doing the experimentation with mic positions that good simply-miked stereo requires. You have to get something, nail it down, fast, and get those musicians out of there while you still have some cash left. Multiple spot mics are the quick'n'dirty way to get something usable fast. In pop recording, current musical styles mostly demand multi-tracking, overdubs, etc.. I teach a course which assigns a project using multi- miking direct-to-two-track. I add, parenthetically, that if they want to try a hip-hop recording using live musicians and do it direct-to- two-track they will have my admiration, and a probable A. Only a few have taken me up on it; hip-hop as a style is based on multi-track recording. Peace, Paul |
#46
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"Are Modern Recording Practices Damaging Music?"
"PStamler" wrote in message ... On Feb 13, 7:29 am, ChrisCoaster wrote: I teach a course which assigns a project using multi- miking direct-to-two-track. I add, parenthetically, that if they want to try a hip-hop recording using live musicians and do it direct-to- two-track they will have my admiration, and a probable A. Only a few have taken me up on it; hip-hop as a style is based on multi-track recording. Fascinating course to say the least. I'd love to hear some of the finished products. Poly |
#47
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"Are Modern Recording Practices Damaging Music?"
On Feb 14, 10:27*am, "polymod" wrote:
"PStamler" wrote in message ... On Feb 13, 7:29 am, ChrisCoaster wrote: I teach a course which assigns a project using multi- miking direct-to-two-track. I add, parenthetically, that if they want to try a hip-hop recording using live musicians and do it direct-to- two-track they will have my admiration, and a probable A. Only a few have taken me up on it; hip-hop as a style is based on multi-track recording. Fascinating course to say the least. I'd love to hear some of the finished products. Not released, alas. There have been some really nice recordings in the six years I've taught the class, including one dynamite rendition of "Take the A Train" that matches any I've heard on record. That student is Going Places. Peace, Paul |
#48
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"Are Modern Recording Practices Damaging Music?"
Jeff Henig wrote:
William Sommerwerck wrote: Multiple brain studies have shown how much of the brain "lights up" when musically stimulated. You can get the same effect by sticking miniature Christmas-tree lights up your nose. Why does this make me think of Steve Martin singing "It's Just Impossible" and sticking a piano up his nose? ---Jeff Martin Mull, perchance? |
#49
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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"Are Modern Recording Practices Damaging Music?"
ChrisCoaster wrote:
So then perhaps the industry should put more effort into those techniques instead of quickly resorting to simple 'pan-pot' mono with a dozen or more mics and racks of fx. As I recall music is supposed to come from a stage - not a small box with blinking lights & knobs. Works fine for some forms of music, totally can't for others. geoff |
#50
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"Are Modern Recording Practices Damaging Music?"
Scott Dorsey wrote:
ChrisCoaster wrote: The bean counters at the record cos don't care Max. So there's "5dB dynamic range at best"? Squash it to 1dB and pin it to digital VU -.5 dB and re-sell it to the suckers!!! It's not the bean counters anymore. It is now pretty normal for musicians to come into the mastering room and demand everything to be louder. Exactly. If they are 'restrained', they want it to be as loud as X. If pushy, they want it louder than X. geoff |
#51
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"Are Modern Recording Practices Damaging Music?"
PStamler wrote:
Hee's the problem with doing that in classical music: you're paying 75-100 musicians scale for being there. Under those circumstances time is money, lots of money, and you don't have the luxury of doing the experimentation with mic positions that good simply-miked stereo requires. I do not understand the point made here, the mic adjustment time for a main pair is between 0 and 10 minutes, only rarely more. You'll get tired and confused if you don't get it done in that time. You have to get something, nail it down, fast, and get those musicians out of there while you still have some cash left. Multiple spot mics are the quick'n'dirty way to get something usable fast. Strictly no, spot mics are generally about being able to change ones mind, but some of the time necessitated by other setup logistics such as impractical physical placement of soloists. A simple example: they are usually needed for an oratorio type reoording with soloists near the conductor, but you can forego them if you instead place the vox soloists centered in front of the choir. If the event is a ooncert then you can expect little or no say in where to put them, you _should_ have some in case of a recording. Some of the time the soloist wants to be next to the conductor, and then the spot mic gets essential. Choir pair or not is also a geographic issue, including whether there is real estate to put it on. In pop recording, current musical styles mostly demand multi-tracking, overdubs, etc.. I teach a course which assigns a project using multi- miking direct-to-two-track. I add, parenthetically, that if they want to try a hip-hop recording using live musicians and do it direct-to- two-track they will have my admiration, and a probable A. Only a few have taken me up on it; hip-hop as a style is based on multi-track recording. A very different ball game. Peace, Paul |
#52
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"Are Modern Recording Practices Damaging Music?"
"Peter Larsen" writes:
PStamler wrote: Hee's the problem with doing that in classical music: you're paying 75-100 musicians scale for being there. Under those circumstances time is money, lots of money, and you don't have the luxury of doing the experimentation with mic positions that good simply-miked stereo requires. I do not understand the point made here, the mic adjustment time for a main pair is between 0 and 10 minutes, only rarely more. You'll get tired and confused if you don't get it done in that time. Typically closer to 0 minutes. (Plus, I really don't want very much fussing around from my end to distract the group. Do too much of that and they wonder if you know what the hell you're doing. This might make them "hold back," second guess what they're doing, et al. I NEVER EVER want to distract their flow. They are the stars, not me.) If you do have 10 minutes, often it's the warm-up, and it's likely you're not getting a "real" performance from them anyway. This can throw off what you think you're hearing. And, in the field, you'll likely not have optimal monitoring. More than that, though, in the "herding cats" mind-set that can be taking place *you* will not be in the correct head-space to make optimal decisions on-the-spot (no pun). I like to be at least 2-3 weeks past the tracking session before making any dialed-in decisions. The many different worries that go through one's mind the day of tracking are no longer distracting you/fooling you; you can come at it with a clean sonic palette. That said, experience will be on your side (both in general and specifically with the group and room). Many hours of pre-production work is on your side as well, including getting to at least one rehearsal, perhaps two. Rehearsals for session work can be slightly less helpful than those for live performances, but they're still well worth your time. To this day, with all the gigs I've done (many with the same personnel or the same group after many similar sessions/events), there hasn't been one time when a rehearsal has failed to alert me to something that the conductor/players forgot to tell me, or didn't think was worth mentioning. On session day I'll be on site several hours early to get EVERYTHING set and tested based on a plan I drew up, thought about, and ran by the conductor many days earlier. Then, even before the group arrives, I'll have preliminary levels set based on my knowledge of my kit, the room, and what I heard them do dynamically in one of those rehearsals. You have to get something, nail it down, fast, and get those musicians out of there while you still have some cash left. Multiple spot mics are the quick'n'dirty way to get something usable fast. Strictly no, spot mics are generally about being able to change ones mind, but some of the time necessitated by other setup logistics such as impractical physical placement of soloists. A simple example: they are usually needed for an oratorio type reoording with soloists near the conductor, but you can forego them if you instead place the vox soloists centered in front of the choir. If the event is a ooncert then you can expect little or no say in where to put them, you _should_ have some in case of a recording. Some of the time the soloist wants to be next to the conductor, and then the spot mic gets essential. Agreed. Think of it like this. You're directing an epic movie with the climatic scene that needs to be shot -- the stars will all on set, huge numbers of extras, one-time live effects, animals etc. One take is all you get. You're sure as hell not going to plunk down just one camera. Capture it from many angles, then use good judgement in post as to how to cut it all together (an homage to the scene, rather than some editor's ability to make several annoyingly dizzy cuts per second -- but I digress). Choir pair or not is also a geographic issue, including whether there is real estate to put it on. And a pair might not be practical if space is tight (you can't get an appropriate acoustic mix if you're right on top of them). Times like this I'll use 3-4 choir microphones or, as is the case with some of my groups, two pairs on the main poll: a 50 cm A/B pair somewhat low for the orchestra, with an ORTF using hypercardioides set up higher to "reach across" the orchestra and give me a fuller choir sound. Frank Mobile Audio -- |
#53
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"Are Modern Recording Practices Damaging Music?"[OT]
Frank Stearns wrote:
[...] To this day, with all the gigs I've done (...), there hasn't been one time when a rehearsal has failed to alert me to something that the conductor/players forgot to tell me, or didn't think was worth mentioning. Have you got some stories you can tell us? -- ~ Adrian Tuddenham ~ (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply) www.poppyrecords.co.uk |
#54
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"Are Modern Recording Practices Damaging Music?"[OT]
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#55
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"Are Modern Recording Practices Damaging Music?"[OT]
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#56
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"Are Modern Recording Practices Damaging Music?"[OT]
"polymod" writes:
"Frank Stearns" wrote in message nacquisition... lid (Adrian Tuddenham) writes: Frank Stearns wrote: [...] To this day, with all the gigs I've done (...), there hasn't been one time when a rehearsal has failed to alert me to something that the conductor/players forgot to tell me, or didn't think was worth mentioning. Have you got some stories you can tell us? A few... w snips And so it goes, there's always something. You should publish this stuff.....Priceless! Guffaw. Thanks! Maybe I'll do that one day. Frank Mobile Audio -- |
#57
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"Are Modern Recording Practices Damaging Music?"[OT]
Frank Stearns wrote:
"polymod" writes: "Frank Stearns" wrote in message nacquisition... lid (Adrian Tuddenham) writes: Frank Stearns wrote: [...] To this day, with all the gigs I've done (...), there hasn't been one time when a rehearsal has failed to alert me to something that the conductor/players forgot to tell me, or didn't think was worth mentioning. Have you got some stories you can tell us? A few... w snips And so it goes, there's always something. You should publish this stuff.....Priceless! Guffaw. Thanks! Maybe I'll do that one day. Frank, what he said! People from the trenches don't put out enough info about the mud down in the ditch, and your experience is well worth sharing widely. -- shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/ http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri |
#58
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"Are Modern Recording Practices Damaging Music?"[OT]
On Sat 2012-Feb-18 17:29, hank alrich
big snip You should publish this stuff.....Priceless! Guffaw. Thanks! Maybe I'll do that one day. Frank, what he said! People from the trenches don't put out enough info about the mud down in the ditch, and your experience is well worth sharing widely. iNdeed, would agree with Hank. I also find that, if i"m going to be doing the producer's gig, or recording the folks live, attending rehearsals, even with the surprises helps me have an idea what to expect, and adapt to those last minute gotchas. Even when I was doing the studio I'd attend a rehearsal if i had the chance. When you mentioend that earlier in this thread Frank I was ready to chime in then and state how important it is to me and the way I work. Regards, Richard -- | Remove .my.foot for email | via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet-Internet Gateway Site | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own. |
#59
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"Are Modern Recording Practices Damaging Music?"[OT]
Frank Stearns wrote:
Have you got some stories you can tell us? A few... w Same concert at two locations on consecutive days. Went to the first concert. Made plan. Arrived at the next days concert, in another church. Ensemble decided to experiment with a new positioning scheme. Frank Mobile Audio Kind regards Peter Larsen |
#60
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"Are Modern Recording Practices Damaging Music?"[OT]
"hank alrich" wrote in message
... Frank Stearns wrote: "polymod" writes: "Frank Stearns" wrote in message nacquisition... lid (Adrian Tuddenham) writes: Frank Stearns wrote: [...] To this day, with all the gigs I've done (...), there hasn't been one time when a rehearsal has failed to alert me to something that the conductor/players forgot to tell me, or didn't think was worth mentioning. Have you got some stories you can tell us? A few... w snips And so it goes, there's always something. You should publish this stuff.....Priceless! Guffaw. Thanks! Maybe I'll do that one day. Frank, what he said! People from the trenches don't put out enough info about the mud down in the ditch, and your experience is well worth sharing widely. What they said. "What You Really Need to Know about Location Recording" Steve King |
#61
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"Are Modern Recording Practices Damaging Music?"[OT]
"Richard Webb" wrote in
message ... On Sat 2012-Feb-18 17:29, hank alrich big snip You should publish this stuff.....Priceless! Guffaw. Thanks! Maybe I'll do that one day. Frank, what he said! People from the trenches don't put out enough info about the mud down in the ditch, and your experience is well worth sharing widely. iNdeed, would agree with Hank. I also find that, if i"m going to be doing the producer's gig, or recording the folks live, attending rehearsals, even with the surprises helps me have an idea what to expect, and adapt to those last minute gotchas. Even when I was doing the studio I'd attend a rehearsal if i had the chance. When you mentioend that earlier in this thread Frank I was ready to chime in then and state how important it is to me and the way I work. Regards, Richard When I was a studio engineer, I tried to go see every band I was about to record live; I'm talking R&R, Blues, Jazz here. If you haven't seen a performer or group when they are really connected to their audience, then you can't know if what your getting in the studio is the best they can do. I know that's normally a producer's job, but with groups new to recording the engineer usually had to also play the producer's role. Steve King |
#62
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"Are Modern Recording Practices Damaging Music?"[OT]
Steve King wrote:
What they said. "What You Really Need to Know about Location Recording" 65VAC between the grounds of two different outlets at the 9:30 Club. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#63
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"Are Modern Recording Practices Damaging Music?"[OT]
"Steve King" writes:
"Richard Webb" wrote in message ... On Sat 2012-Feb-18 17:29, hank alrich big snip You should publish this stuff.....Priceless! Guffaw. Thanks! Maybe I'll do that one day. Frank, what he said! People from the trenches don't put out enough info about the mud down in the ditch, and your experience is well worth sharing widely. iNdeed, would agree with Hank. I also find that, if i"m going to be doing the producer's gig, or recording the folks live, attending rehearsals, even with the surprises helps me have an idea what to expect, and adapt to those last minute gotchas. Even when I was doing the studio I'd attend a rehearsal if i had the chance. When you mentioend that earlier in this thread Frank I was ready to chime in then and state how important it is to me and the way I work. Regards, Richard When I was a studio engineer, I tried to go see every band I was about to record live; I'm talking R&R, Blues, Jazz here. If you haven't seen a performer or group when they are really connected to their audience, then you can't know if what your getting in the studio is the best they can do. I know that's normally a producer's job, but with groups new to recording the engineer usually had to also play the producer's role. Steve is absolutely right. But even if there is a producer, by catching the "live vibe" at a show you, as engineer, can get a sense of a "musical arc" about the group -- how they perform, how they relate, what they communicate -- even their "out of frame" personal and group histories that influences who they are and what they do. (It's always good to chat up the band a bit too, hopefully inspiring confidence and not unease! -- but also quietly getting more background on their music and playing, perhaps even getting some initial clues about their instruments/voices.) It's conceivable the producer might miss some of that during the session; you can gently back-stop that "loss" and try to make sure it's all being captured. While I'm busy with my stuff, when needed I'll try to toss out a single word or phrase that will remind or help the producer with something. (I know we all often must produce and engineer at the same time; and that can be fun. But these days, looking back, for anything but the simplest sessions I'm not so sure that's the best way to go, even when it seems to have worked... YMMV) Ya gotta be careful, though. Some producers start deferring to you, and that defeats their purpose and distracts you. Or, they can start to wobble a bit if there's a stronger personality out on the floor. At this moment, in fact, I'm taking a break from editing an orchestral project where the conductor got out in front -- he started producing from the podium. It sort of works, though because at times there was not optimal production guidance from a single authority -- the actual producer -- some of these edits are going to be crazy, and it'll be interesting to get a final mix. (So far, the music is holding up.) But it's not ideal because while producing from the podium it felt as if conducting duties might have been short-changed; and while the producer deferred to me or the conductor, HIS job was perhaps short-changed -- things like watching tempos, intonation, togetherness, etc. This was a complex series of sessions with new clients; I wanted to make sure the tech end was squeaky clean. Also, I did not want to overly and suddenly change the session flow that had been established, quirky as it was good work was getting done. But there will be some moments pulling digital rabbits out of hats (already had to do this with some tempo mis-matches -- too many artifacts with PT's time stretcher for this type of music, so tempos of some inserts were corrected manually: break just in front of a beat transient, slip 10 or 20 ms, back-expand pre-transient of the slid chunk and cross fade. Lather, repeat. Tedious, but at least it sounds natural, believe it or not. (That's the solution if the insert was too fast; if too slow you tighten chunks in a similar fashion.) But I digress. Thanks to Hank and Richard and others for their suggestions to recount more. Actually, there are a few things along these lines in the works. I've been turning down a fair amount of work lately in favor of doing some more teaching and writing. It's a ways out, but coming. Thanks for the comments. Frank Mobile Audio -- |
#64
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"Are Modern Recording Practices Damaging Music?"[OT]
On Sun 2012-Feb-19 11:52, Steve King writes:
Indeed, would agree with Hank. I also find that, if i"m going to be doing the producer's gig, or recording the folks live, attending rehearsals, even with the surprises helps me have an idea what to expect, and adapt to those last minute gotchas. Even when I was doing the studio I'd attend a rehearsal if i had the chance. When you mentioend that earlier in this thread Frank I was ready to chime in then and state how important it is to me and the way I work. When I was a studio engineer, I tried to go see every band I was about to record live; I'm talking R&R, Blues, Jazz here. If you haven't seen a performer or group when they are really connected to their audience, then you can't know if what your getting in the studio is the best they can do. I know that's normally a producer's job, but with groups new to recording the engineer usually had to also play the producer's role. Would agree with that as well. I used to try to attend a gig even if I didn't do a rehearsal, especially with folks I knew weren't old hands at the studio, with no producer, which is often the case with these folks. It's given me some very useful info over the years that helps me plan things to flow a bit smoother, even if doing the studio and not live on location. I remember one group, I've told some stories on these guys in this ng before, we did their foundation tracks at a warehouse downtown Burlington, Iowa. First time I heard them was at one of these outdoor party/festival things, and it was fairly drunk out for those guys that night. When I was approached to record them I was dreading it, but wanting a chance to get a bit more familiar with my new digital recording gear. So, I went to a gig they played at a local club. They were actually sober and lucid that evening, so I got a much better idea what they were about. I also had a chance that evening to sit down and talk with them, to find out if they'd ever done the studio anywhere before and waht they were happy with, and more important, what they weren't. I was able to tell them to give me examples of sounds they liked and wanted to reflect in their recording, especially drum sounds. IT seemed one of the things they were most unhappy with, as I expected when I found out they'd recorded before was drum sounds. Everybody else that had recorded them either used triggered electronic drums or close mic techniques, whereas their drummer was more into the JOhn Bonham thing. I'm setting up for the session at the warehouse, and teh drummer's almost incredulous when he sees that I've got a stereo pair of sd condensers, sm-81 iirc overhead, and a mic on the snare and one on the kick. HE's wondering where the close mics are. We also had him in a big room and created a microclimate around him with large rolls of canvas. A fun sesion, wish I'd done the final mixes for 'em, I'd be more than happy to show them off to people, but I didn't, and whoever did them screwed the pooch. Regards, Richard -- | Remove .my.foot for email | via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet-Internet Gateway Site | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own. |
#65
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"Are Modern Recording Practices Damaging Music?"[OT]
Scott Dorsey wrote:
Steve King wrote: What they said. "What You Really Need to Know about Location Recording" 65VAC between the grounds of two different outlets at the 9:30 Club. --scott Why, that's just shocking! -- shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/ http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri |
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