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[email protected] skybuck2000@hotmail.com is offline
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Default Powering Cambridge 210w 8ohm Sub woofers

Hello People,

On this website you can see a picture of a three voice coil sub woofer:

http://www.ecoustics.com/electronics...io/646685.html

Also known as Cambridge 210w 8ohm Sub woofers (taken from creative gigaworks s750 7.1's).

Apperently this is a subwoofer which requires 3 amps of each 70 watts of power to bring this beast alive !

I have mine still stuck in my Gigaworks S750 enclousure. I am thinking/would like to bring it back alive and thus I would like to replace the very shady creative labs electronics with some kind of alternative.

Perhaps the best option is a "plate amp". Apperently this is some kind of plate with some amp electronics attached to it. This could then probably be used to seal the enclosure, it would need to happen to have the same dimensions.

For now this is an experiment mostly to see if it would work, if it is possible and what kind of sound it would give so I can compare it to my memory recollection.

A repairman claims that it is best for the sound quality to have the Gigaworks fulled repaired/restored, however I am not so sure of that claim and I highly doubt it because I cannot imagine how the electronics would improve the sound of other amps.

However there is some speak of "cross-over" frequencies, though this seems to be handled by software and can be set between 10 hz and 200 hz.

Furthermore the creative x-fi elite soundblaster has 3 outputs on the back which split into 9 outputs via special video cables which are used as audio cables, where one output probably has no signal.

So it seems these cables either duplicate the output signals or split them. I confident that there is a subwoofer signal on one of them, going into my receiver and I could probably connect any amp to the receiver, or perhaps even directly to one of these outputs.

My main issue is:

Will this idea work ? Also how to connect amplifiers to this subwoofer ? Is it as easy as simply plugging some cables into the amp and then connecting it to the 3+ and 3- ?

Also my other main question is:

Which equipment is suited for this ? My guess would be some kind of plate amp which can deliver 3x70 watts ? Does such an plate-amp exist ?

If it doesn't would I need to buy 3 amplifiers each of 70 watts ? Perhaps duplicate the subwoofer signal to all 3 with cables ? How would that work ?

An amplifier in a box could also be interesting to play with, but perhaps the amp plate might be a good solution for this gigaworks if it happens to have the same dimensions or otherwise maybe a little bit of extra wood work or so could enclose it ? Perhaps the heatsink of such an amp plate is also enough to cool it and the subwoofer itself doesn't need any cooling.

So please advise if you have any insight or experience into this matter because my experience with "amplifiers" is zero.

I do own a denon receiver 1909 which is used to power the 7 satelitte speakers and this works fabolously.

My main concern is also the safety of the electronics, I kinda don't trust the gigaworks electronics because of all this brown (conductive) glue that might have damaged it and the designs looks kinda shady ! but perhaps I am a bit to untrusty of that also I like to give other electronics a try just to see what it's like.

So if you have any recommendations please share ! It will be very highly appreciated not just by me, but by many many many many owners of gigaworks s750 that have the exact same problem as me.

Bye,
Skybuck.
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Peter Wieck Peter Wieck is offline
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Default Powering Cambridge 210w 8ohm Sub woofers

A couple of things: This is a 3-voice-coil woofer. The reason for it is quite simple:

a) Left Channel
b) Right Channel
c) Center Channel

Thereby allowing it to be used in a "modern" TV sound reinforcement system with a center channel, and include all three feeds in one box.

Some points:
- you do not need to use all three voice coils.
- you do not want to parallel any of them, much less all three of them.
- Conversely, there is no benefit in running them in series.

Now. More *stuff*. Bass is directionless only below -about- 500 hz. So, any speaker less than 10 - 12" or so will struggle to produce decent volumes below 500 hz. Meaning that there might be some undesirable 'directionality' with this speaker.

let's analyze 3 amps & 70 watts. That suggests that your amp needs to put out a nominal 24 v. This is trivial to a modern amplifier. That is part A. Part B is the likelihood that the rating you suggest is the Maximum Sustained Rating this speaker can handle over a normal distribution of frequencies, not the REQUIRED rating. Example: I have a pair of speakers 'rated' at 50 watts. I feed it from a 200 WPC amp. and whereas I will seldom clip, the speakers will see all 200 watts briefly on loud passages quite often, and sustain no damage. But, most of the time, the speakers will be seeing just a few watts. Seldom does much musical signal sustain a high output, and seldom do most users play at an ear-bleed level.

All of the above is very broad-brush, without any information on your source, amplifier, actual listening conditions, ultimate purpose and application of the speaker.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
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Default Powering Cambridge 210w 8ohm Sub woofers

On Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 3:43:42 PM UTC+2, Peter Wieck wrote:
A couple of things: This is a 3-voice-coil woofer. The reason for it is quite simple:

a) Left Channel
b) Right Channel
c) Center Channel


So are you "saying" that the bass of the left chanel speaker is re-router into this subwoofer, and same for right and center ?

So that would mean the subwoofer is than capable of playing bass from left/center/right speaker.

An interesting hypothesis...

However there could also be a special subwoofer signal which already contains all information for subwoofer.

So this confuses me a little bit.

It might be possible that this design would take additional frequency range from above 200 hz from speakers and re-route it to the subwoofer.

That would make a bit more sense to me...

Hmmmm...

This subwoofer is from a 7.1 speaker system... so there would be 7 speakers...

You only describe 3 so that leaves an additional 4 speakers...

Maybe the electronics would mix even more or so... from those 7... hmm..

Or you could be completely wrong and it has nothing to do with channels.

Well if I do decide to have this gigaworks fixed then I will surely test this hypothesis by generating 500 hz waves, disconnecting all speakers and see what the subwoofer does ! =D

Very interesting experiment ! Wish I had one right now to test with ! =D
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Peter Wieck Peter Wieck is offline
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Default Powering Cambridge 210w 8ohm Sub woofers

You are entirely missing the point. There is no shame in this, perhaps I wa=
s not clear in the description, so I will try again.

a) Bass is omnidirectional below ~500 Hz. What this means is that even a "7=
..1" system does not need bass at all seven speakers.=20
b) A standard stereo system typically delivers full range signal to both th=
e left and right speakers.=20
c) A sub-woofer system will use either an electronic crossover-&-blend syst=
em - not cheap - or a dual-voice-coil driver. The dual-voice-coil driver is=
considerably less costly than an electronic option.=20
d) Some systems, even from far back in the day, had center-channel outputs =
from either amplifiers or receivers to accommodate early stereo recordings =
that greatly exaggerated separation, or for individuals who wanted a wide s=
ound-stage and needed center channel reinforcement.=20
e) Such a system will also deliver full-range signal to the center channel.=
=20
f) Many multi-channel (AKA Surround Sound) suffer from too wide a speaker s=
eparation, most especially as they tend to use tiny little speakers with ti=
ny little drivers.=20
g) With that in mind, a three-voice-coil driver is a standard, relatively l=
ow-cost, device to provide sufficient bass for a multi-speaker surround sou=
nd system.=20

To your point - the internal crossover does take all the '200 Hz' signal an=
d direct it to the sub-woofer. But there need not be any fancy blend circui=
try as would be required for a single-voice-coil driver.=20

Against your point - you do not need to deliver any bass to any of the peri=
pheral speakers, at all. A single point-source for bass is sufficient for t=
he need, and the entire purpose of any sub-woofer.=20

And, a general observation: surround sound systems are similar in applicati=
on to vehicular sound systems. When typically deployed for movies or listen=
ing when driving, fidelity is simply not possible nor the goal. The goal is=
to create an environment. Between action on the screen, road and wind nois=
e, whatever, again, there is no such thing as fidelity despite much blather=
to the contrary.=20

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
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Default Powering Cambridge 210w 8ohm Sub woofers

On Wednesday, July 26, 2017 at 2:42:58 PM UTC+2, Peter Wieck wrote:
You are entirely missing the point. There is no shame in this, perhaps I =

was not clear in the description, so I will try again.
=20
a) Bass is omnidirectional below ~500 Hz. What this means is that even a =

"7.1" system does not need bass at all seven speakers.=20
b) A standard stereo system typically delivers full range signal to both =

the left and right speakers.=20
c) A sub-woofer system will use either an electronic crossover-&-blend sy=

stem - not cheap - or a dual-voice-coil driver. The dual-voice-coil driver =
is considerably less costly than an electronic option.=20
d) Some systems, even from far back in the day, had center-channel output=

s from either amplifiers or receivers to accommodate early stereo recording=
s that greatly exaggerated separation, or for individuals who wanted a wide=
sound-stage and needed center channel reinforcement.=20
e) Such a system will also deliver full-range signal to the center channe=

l.=20
f) Many multi-channel (AKA Surround Sound) suffer from too wide a speaker=

separation, most especially as they tend to use tiny little speakers with =
tiny little drivers.=20
g) With that in mind, a three-voice-coil driver is a standard, relatively=

low-cost, device to provide sufficient bass for a multi-speaker surround s=
ound system.=20
=20
To your point - the internal crossover does take all the '200 Hz' signal =

and direct it to the sub-woofer. But there need not be any fancy blend circ=
uitry as would be required for a single-voice-coil driver.=20
=20
Against your point - you do not need to deliver any bass to any of the pe=

ripheral speakers, at all. A single point-source for bass is sufficient for=
the need, and the entire purpose of any sub-woofer.=20
=20
And, a general observation: surround sound systems are similar in applica=

tion to vehicular sound systems. When typically deployed for movies or list=
ening when driving, fidelity is simply not possible nor the goal. The goal =
is to create an environment. Between action on the screen, road and wind no=
ise, whatever, again, there is no such thing as fidelity despite much blath=
er to the contrary.=20
=20
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA


All the outputs from the soundblaster (3 wires from soundblaster split into=
8 towards the receiver) and plugged into the denon 1909 receiver.

The denon 1909 receiver is probably capable of stripping of all the frequen=
cies below a certain threshold and is probably capable of forwarding this t=
o the subwoofer or even better to an intermediate amplifier which forwards =
it to the subwoofer.

From what you wrote it seems the three voice coil design might have been a =
cheap way to mimic what a receiver does. Now that a real receiver is in pla=
y, would it still be necessary to power all three voice coils ? Could that =
be a problem somehow or does it not matter ?

I would guess that if only one voice coil was powered that that would be in=
sufficient and the device would be underpowered and not operating well.

The only thing which might be special about gigaworks electronics is that i=
t maybe had a higher cross over frequencies than usual, but perhaps that's =
just my fantasy

Other possibilities include special subwoofer audio processing but probably=
not...

Bye,
Skybuck.


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Default Powering Cambridge 210w 8ohm Sub woofers

The sub-woofer wants to capture bass signal from both stereo channels A and B - so at least two of the voice-coils will be powered. If the Denon has a center-channel-out, that would be the third. Any additional channels are not relevant to this discussion.

KISS.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, pA
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Default Powering Cambridge 210w 8ohm Sub woofers

I have some data sheets available about this device on my webdrive located he

http://www.skybuck.org/GigaWorksS750/

(It's a rar file and will need to be extracted with something like winrar, though windows 7 has it also built-in)

Perhaps these data sheets can shed some more light on this device.

Alternative data sheets might also be located he

http://www.tgahinfo.homecall.co.uk/S750%20PSU/

Bye,
Skybuck.
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Default Powering Cambridge 210w 8ohm Sub woofers

I came across this website:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_crossover

This is one of the few references to "three-way" I came across my investigation as to why a subwoofer would have three voice coils:

"Crossovers are often described as "two-way" or "three-way""

So my latest hypothesis is that this cambridge subwoofer uses different wattage levels to reach different frequency ranges.

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Peter Wieck Peter Wieck is offline
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Default Powering Cambridge 210w 8ohm Sub woofers

Are you sure you are not a troll?

A 3-way crossover divides the input into three separate output curves cover=
ing three different frequency ranges. These curves are not "square", but ty=
pical rounded curves with almost flat tops. So, the woofer covers everythin=
g from 0 HZ to, perhaps, 1,000HZ - BUT! the curve drops off pretty seriousl=
y from about 480 HZ. The midrange covers everything from about 150 HZ to, s=
ay.... 10,000 HZ with similar drops at either end. The Tweet starts in at a=
bout 1,000 HZ to =E2=88=9E.

Not intended to be actual frequencies, offered for illustrative purposes on=
ly.=20

http://images.audiojudgement.com/201...over-types.jpg


THESE DO NOT GO INTO A SINGLE VOICE COIL. Full Stop.=20

Do not over-complicate what you have. Which is an inexpensive means to mix =
bass signal from multiple sources without the need for additional electroni=
cs.=20

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
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Default Powering Cambridge 210w 8ohm Sub woofers

Maybe something like this might work:

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_021AMP....html?tp=48757

Crutchfield seems to have all kinds of amplifiers...

Expensive though...


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Peter Wieck Peter Wieck is offline
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Default Powering Cambridge 210w 8ohm Sub woofers

On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 9:18:39 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Maybe something like this might work:

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_021AMP....html?tp=48757

Crutchfield seems to have all kinds of amplifiers...

Expensive though...


What are you trying to accomplish?

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
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Default Powering Cambridge 210w 8ohm Sub woofers

On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 5:39:56 PM UTC+2, Peter Wieck wrote:
On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 9:18:39 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Maybe something like this might work:

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_021AMP....html?tp=48757

Crutchfield seems to have all kinds of amplifiers...

Expensive though...


What are you trying to accomplish?

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA


I need something to power the subwoofer it says to in topic.

So the subwoofer apperently has 6 wires. 3 wires for + 3 wires for -.

So these wires probably have to be plugged into an "amplifier". Problem with that is probably that most amplifiers are "stereo" based and only have 4 connection points.

The amplifier should then be plugged into "pre sub out" or something like that from receiver... receiver is connected to PC/soundblaster/audio connections.

What I would like to try is:

1. Provide power to the subwoofer.
2. Get a signal from receiver to subwoofer to see if it can work.
Which is basically the same thing as 1 more or less.

Perhaps going this route might not give exact sound as it was... or maybe it will, not sure about that... but it's worth a try.

Or I could try taking this device to some shop and see if they can get it powered up.... but that is a bit risky... unless they know what they are doing concerning the 8 ohm rating of this thing... and the 70 watts power requirement hmmm...

Not sure if stores will try and power it up !
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Peter Wieck Peter Wieck is offline
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Default Powering Cambridge 210w 8ohm Sub woofers

NONONONONONONO

Did I mention NO?

You are making this WAYYYyyyy too complicated, and why I asked the question in the first place, and why I mentioned KISS earlier, AKA, K-eep I-t S-imple S-tupid.

Please go back and look over what has been posted to-date:

a) This speaker is designed to accept *UP TO THREE* separate outputs in the same speaker.
b) Those outputs, typically are Channels A, B, & Center. Or, Right, Left & Center.
c) You *DO NOT* have to drive all three voice-coils.
d) You should *NOT* run the voice-coils in Series or Parallel.
e) You may need some sort of crossover system from your A & B & C outputs I do not know what sort of speakers you have, or their impedance. Hence the term "May".
f) It !! DOES NOT !! require 70 watts to drive it. That rating is for the maximum average power over a specified range of frequencies over a specified time. Were you to run 70 watts into that device continuously, it would burn up. Don't understand? How long can you hold onto a (lit) 60-watt incandescent light bulb without damage? That speaker will make plenty of noise on as little as 2 or 3 watts.

Essentially, you have a sub-woofer designed to accept input from Channels A, B, & Center from the receiver detailed below.

https://www.amazon.com/Denon-7-1-Cha.../dp/B001BKND5W

You need to find a way to provide mid & tweet to your main speakers for channels A, B & Center. That is your ONLY task here. This may involve some sort of crossover, or some sort of careful wiring of your existing speakers. Please note the impedance range on the Denon, and do not go outside those nominal ratings.

It seems to me that you are expending a great deal of effort to use a marginal far device outside of its design parameters.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

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Default Powering Cambridge 210w 8ohm Sub woofers

Once upon a time on usenet Peter Wieck wrote:
Are you sure you are not a troll?


I don't see the posts you're replying to Peter so that means the person
you're replying to most likely *is* a troll and is in my killfile. I can't
tell as you don't quote.

It probably heard that this group is no longer moderated....
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)

A 3-way crossover divides the input into three separate output curves
covering three different frequency ranges. These curves are not
"square", but typical rounded curves with almost flat tops. So, the
woofer covers everything from 0 HZ to, perhaps, 1,000HZ - BUT! the
curve drops off pretty seriously from about 480 HZ. The midrange
covers everything from about 150 HZ to, say.... 10,000 HZ with
similar drops at either end. The Tweet starts in at about 1,000 HZ to
?.

Not intended to be actual frequencies, offered for illustrative
purposes only.

http://images.audiojudgement.com/201...over-types.jpg


THESE DO NOT GO INTO A SINGLE VOICE COIL. Full Stop.

Do not over-complicate what you have. Which is an inexpensive means
to mix bass signal from multiple sources without the need for
additional electronics.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA




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Default Powering Cambridge 210w 8ohm Sub woofers

(Small corrections made compared to posting on other newsgroups )

My original hypothesis for this three voice coil design is for 7.1 operatio=
n could be the correct one:

Low Frequencies from Channels is send to the subwoofer's 3 voice coil.

This hypothesis is confirmed by this document stating different magnetic fi=
elds will result in a net magnetic field describing the action/motion takin=
g by the subwoofer. So three voice coil would give more precise control ove=
r waves/cosinus/sinus waves inteferring with each other.

http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/Dual...oilDrivers.pdf

Since there are only 3 voice coils and 8 signals it would require a mapping=
for example:

Voice 1: Left+Center+Right
Voice 2: Side Left + Side Right
Voice 3: Rear Right + Rear Left + LFE

This mapping/hypothesis makes the most since to me.

One other hypothesis is that this company wanted to use the same amplifiers=
to make production easy.

However this does not cancel out my hypothesis either, this is just a conve=
nient/bonus.

My guess is that each 70 watt amplifier is being used to cause this mapping=
effect.

Thus if I would simply wire a single amplifier in parallel to this subwoofe=
r it would not be the same as wiring three individual amplifiers being driv=
en with a specially processed or mixed signal.

Knowing creative labs they would probably have jumped upon this oppertunity=
to use a three voice coil system to it's maximum audio quality potential.

This is probably simply new technology that the mainstream market has not y=
et catched on too, shown by the simple single pre-amp subwoofer out port.

To duplicate this technology it would require at least 3 pre-amp subwoofer =
out ports and special signal processing or at least mixing of these input s=
ignals.

Bye,
Skybuck.


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Default Powering Cambridge 210w 8ohm Sub woofers

On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 10:01:55 PM UTC+2, Peter Wieck wrote:
NONONONONONONO
=20
Did I mention NO?=20
=20
You are making this WAYYYyyyy too complicated, and why I asked the questi=

on in the first place, and why I mentioned KISS earlier, AKA, K-eep I-t S-i=
mple S-tupid.=20
=20
Please go back and look over what has been posted to-date:
=20
a) This speaker is designed to accept *UP TO THREE* separate outputs in t=

he same speaker.=20
b) Those outputs, typically are Channels A, B, & Center. Or, Right, Left =

& Center.=20
c) You *DO NOT* have to drive all three voice-coils.=20
d) You should *NOT* run the voice-coils in Series or Parallel. =20
e) You may need some sort of crossover system from your A & B & C outputs=

I do not know what sort of speakers you have, or their impedance. Hence th=
e term "May".=20
f) It !! DOES NOT !! require 70 watts to drive it. That rating is for the=

maximum average power over a specified range of frequencies over a specifi=
ed time. Were you to run 70 watts into that device continuously, it would b=
urn up. Don't understand? How long can you hold onto a (lit) 60-watt incand=
escent light bulb without damage? That speaker will make plenty of noise on=
as little as 2 or 3 watts.=20
=20
Essentially, you have a sub-woofer designed to accept input from Channels=

A, B, & Center from the receiver detailed below.=20
=20
https://www.amazon.com/Denon-7-1-Cha...ued-Manufactu=

rer/dp/B001BKND5W
=20
You need to find a way to provide mid & tweet to your main speakers for c=

hannels A, B & Center. That is your ONLY task here. This may involve some s=
ort of crossover, or some sort of careful wiring of your existing speakers.=
Please note the impedance range on the Denon, and do not go outside those =
nominal ratings.=20
=20
It seems to me that you are expending a great deal of effort to use a mar=

ginal far device outside of its design parameters.=20
=20
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA


I think you miss understand.

I want to accomplish the following for a full pictu

I want the denon receiver to power 7 satelite speakers which it is doing fi=
ne as I write this.

But I also want *something* to power the subwoofer.

Now if I was a millionare I could:


1. Buy 1 receiver + 1 subwoofer per channel + 1 speaker per channel.

For a total ammount of 7 speakers + 7 subwoofers + 7 receiver.

Every receiver would then be in control of 1 speaker + 1 subwoofer.

The receiver would split the signal of the channel in two signals 1 for the=
speaker 1 for the subwoofer.

2. There would be an 8th subwoofer and 8th receiver to simply process the L=
FE signal.

So in total there would be 7 speakers 8 receivers 8 subwoofers.

However a cheaper solution costing less space would be:

3 receivers + 7 satelites + 3 subwoofers.


Receiver 1 processes left/center/right and splits this off to 3 speakers an=
d 1 subwoofer.

Receiver 2 processes side left/side right and splits this off to 2 speakers=
and 1 subwoofer.

Receiver 3 processes rear rear/ rear left and LFE and splits this of to 2 a=
nd 1 subwoofer.

So then I would some something like "surround bass".

However I suspect the Gigaworks S750 is already doing this.

It's electronics seperate the signals as above but instead of three receive=
s and 3 subwoofers it's simply 1 subwoofer with three voice coils for more =
fine grained bass/more control over bass.

So at least we agree on something: the tripple voice coil subwoofer is acce=
pting 3 inputs.

However those 3 inputs could be a mixed signal as described above as sinus/=
cosinus signals should mix quite easy.

What the Gigaworks is actually doing will remain a mystery for now.

One possible way to reverse engineering it is to place a monitor/volt meter=
or something on each coil, one at a time and play the same audio file and =
see what happens.

Also disconnecting some plugs/signals could shed further light on this.

This subwoofer is part of a 7.1 surround sound set.... so sending only left=
/center/right to it makes no sense what's so ever.

Why not send all 8 signals to it by mixing them down to 3 first ?

Also the subwoofer is rated at 210 RMS.

So how can you say it's only 3 watts ? Sounds weird to me.

This subwoofer is according to repair man and pictures and guys on forum po=
wered by 3 amplifiers each of 70 watts so you were dead wrong there or some=
thing is amiss

Also pretty much all speaker outputs are already used from the denon receiv=
er.

You did give me an idea though.

I could re-write some off the speaker outputs directly into the subwoofer, =
perhaps even the three seperate coils.

Then I would indeed how to get rid of cross over frequencies and make sure =
all signals are passed raw/unmodified or reverse it and send low frequencie=
s... not sure if denon can do this... but it's beside the point since denon=
in normal operation mode only has 1 subwoofer output.

So this *main stream* device can simply NOT do with the Gigaworks might be =
doing.

Which could mean the Gigaworks is a revolutionary home theater system which=
could explain why a Saboteur sabotaged the production facility to use "con=
ductive glue" Which would only reveal it self after Q&A already passe=
d the devices.

The Q&A did not test the devices properly to simulate prolonged use of heat=
..

Bye,
Skybuck.
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~misfit~[_3_] ~misfit~[_3_] is offline
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Default Powering Cambridge 210w 8ohm Sub woofers

Once upon a time on usenet Peter Wieck wrote:
On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 9:18:39 AM UTC-4,
wrote:
Maybe something like this might work:

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_021AMP....html?tp=48757

Crutchfield seems to have all kinds of amplifiers...

Expensive though...


What are you trying to accomplish?


This guy is a known troll who usually lurks around the computer newsgroups.
He's been trolling for many years now and is quite good at it.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)


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Peter Wieck Peter Wieck is offline
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Default Powering Cambridge 210w 8ohm Sub woofers

That makes sense. I was about to quote Schiller - well, perhaps I will anyway.

Against stupidity the very gods Themselves contend in vain.

I am no god, so I will quit contending.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
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~misfit~[_3_] ~misfit~[_3_] is offline
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Default Powering Cambridge 210w 8ohm Sub woofers

Once upon a time on usenet Peter Wieck wrote:
That makes sense. I was about to quote Schiller - well, perhaps I
will anyway.

Against stupidity the very gods Themselves contend in vain.

I am no god, so I will quit contending.


That's the policy I adopt with people like this too.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)


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