[Emiliano Grilli]

Hi all,

I have to record a demo for a swing trio (double bass, guitar and
violin) all playing and singing toghether. The room is rather small
(3,80 x 4,60 meters) and treated with some absorbers and a skyline
diffuser (120x120cm) on the ceiling. I have the following microphones:
a sennheiser MD21, a sennheiser MD441, a matched pair of oktava mk012
(with the 3 capsules), an oktava mk220, two akg C3000b, two SM57, an
audix OM5, a sennheiser e902, and a samson C03. Preamps: an RNP, a
GrooveTubes "the brick" and two VTB-1. I can record 8 channels a time.
I also have a self made gobo. I understand that separation is very
difficult to achieve with such a small room... should I insist that
they overdub the vocal parts?

Any advice (players position, mic and preamp choice, mic position,
etc...) is greatly appreciated.

Cheers,
--
Emiliano Grilli
Linux user #209089
http://www.emillo.net

[Emiliano Grilli]

On 19 Feb, 14:37, "Emiliano Grilli" wrote:

I have to record a demo for a swing trio (double bass, guitar and
violin) all playing and singing toghether. The room is rather small
(3,80 x 4,60 meters) and treated with some absorbers and a skyline
diffuser (120x120cm) on the ceiling. I have the following microphones:
a sennheiser MD21, a sennheiser MD441, a matched pair of oktava mk012
(with the 3 capsules), an oktava mk220, two akg C3000b, two SM57, an
audix OM5, a sennheiser e902, and a samson C03. Preamps: an RNP, a
GrooveTubes "the brick" and two VTB-1. I can record 8 channels a time.

No responses so far... I'll give some additional information.
They come this evening, this is how I intend to mike them:

oktava mk012 hypercardioid on violin (1or 2 feet from above)
sennheiser MD441 on double bass
oktava mk012 hypercardioid on guitar

As for the voices, I don't know how is their microphone technique, but
I'm inclined to use dynamics, maybe the two sm57 for backing vocals
and the audix OM5 for the leader, and tell them to sing quite close.
And maybe the sennheiser MD21 as room mike...

Thank you in advance for any suggestion
--
Emiliano Grilli
Linux user #209089
http://www.emillo.net

[Mike Rivers]

So? How did it come out?

[Emiliano Grilli]

On 20 Feb, 13:43, "Mike Rivers" wrote:
So? How did it come out?

Sorry, I mean "they /will/ come this evening".
I'm in Italy, so now is Tue Feb 20 13:46:46 CET 2007
They arrive at 20:00

So, any suggestion is still useful and appreciated :-)

Ciao
--
Emiliano Grilli
Linux user #209089
http://www.emillo.net

[Roy W. Rising]

"Emiliano Grilli" wrote:
On 19 Feb, 14:37, "Emiliano Grilli" wrote:

I have to record a demo for a swing trio (double bass, guitar and
violin) all playing and singing toghether. The room is rather small
(3,80 x 4,60 meters) and treated with some absorbers and a skyline
diffuser (120x120cm) on the ceiling. I have the following microphones:
a sennheiser MD21, a sennheiser MD441, a matched pair of oktava mk012
(with the 3 capsules), an oktava mk220, two akg C3000b, two SM57, an
audix OM5, a sennheiser e902, and a samson C03. Preamps: an RNP, a
GrooveTubes "the brick" and two VTB-1. I can record 8 channels a time.

No responses so far... I'll give some additional information.
They come this evening, this is how I intend to mike them:

oktava mk012 hypercardioid on violin (1or 2 feet from above)
sennheiser MD441 on double bass
oktava mk012 hypercardioid on guitar

As for the voices, I don't know how is their microphone technique, but
I'm inclined to use dynamics, maybe the two sm57 for backing vocals
and the audix OM5 for the leader, and tell them to sing quite close.
And maybe the sennheiser MD21 as room mike...

Thank you in advance for any suggestion

The Kingston Trio, Peter, Paul and Mary and The Limelighters always sounded
best when using a single cardioid mic. Recently, I saw a Kingston Trio
reunion video where they used six mics. It just didn't sound the same!

--
~ Roy
"If you notice the sound, it's wrong!"

[Paul Stamler]

"Roy W. Rising" wrote in message
...

The Kingston Trio, Peter, Paul and Mary and The Limelighters always
sounded
best when using a single cardioid mic. Recently, I saw a Kingston Trio
reunion video where they used six mics. It just didn't sound the same!

Of course, having only one original member present makes a difference too.

Peace,
Paul

[Scott Dorsey]

Roy W. Rising wrote:

The Kingston Trio, Peter, Paul and Mary and The Limelighters always sounded
best when using a single cardioid mic. Recently, I saw a Kingston Trio
reunion video where they used six mics. It just didn't sound the same!

Yeah, but when you try and give those guys a single mike today, they all
complain they want more foldback. People have gotten used to having all
that monitor level on stage and the concert levels are much higher than
they used to be too. Even for acoustic music that has no business being
loud.

It's really depressing, isn't it?
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Arny Krueger]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message


Roy W. Rising wrote:

The Kingston Trio, Peter, Paul and Mary and The
Limelighters always sounded best when using a single
cardioid mic. Recently, I saw a Kingston Trio reunion
video where they used six mics. It just didn't sound
the same!

Yeah, but when you try and give those guys a single mike
today, they all complain they want more foldback. People
have gotten used to having all that monitor level on
stage and the concert levels are much higher than they
used to be too. Even for acoustic music that has no
business being loud.

It's really depressing, isn't it?

Two words that virtually every technican has heard, when stage monitors are
used:

"More me".

[Richard Crowley]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote ...
Roy W. Rising wrote:

The Kingston Trio, Peter, Paul and Mary and The Limelighters always
sounded
best when using a single cardioid mic. Recently, I saw a Kingston Trio
reunion video where they used six mics. It just didn't sound the same!

Yeah, but when you try and give those guys a single mike today, they all
complain they want more foldback. People have gotten used to having all
that monitor level on stage and the concert levels are much higher than
they used to be too. Even for acoustic music that has no business being
loud.

It's really depressing, isn't it?

Or maybe they have just grown hard of hearing.

And in an unrelated matter :-)...
Happy Birthday, Mike!

[Laurence Payne]

On 20 Feb 2007 14:32:03 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

Yeah, but when you try and give those guys a single mike today, they all
complain they want more foldback. People have gotten used to having all
that monitor level on stage and the concert levels are much higher than
they used to be too. Even for acoustic music that has no business being
loud.

With my sound operator hat on, yes it's a nuisance. With my
performing musician hat on, when I'm performing music intended for a
room on a big empty stage, proper foldback lets it be an artistic
event, not just a play-by-numbers and pray the sound operator's a
better musician than I am.

[Laurence Payne]

On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:35:06 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

Two words that virtually every technican has heard, when stage monitors are
used:

"More me".

If I was the MD you'd hear "I know I can never hear exactly what's
going out front. But if you give me the mix in a monitor close enough
to me to be the first thing I hear, I can make a fair guess."

[Arny Krueger]

"Laurence Payne" lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom wrote in
message
On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:35:06 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

Two words that virtually every technican has heard, when
stage monitors are used:

"More me".

If I was the MD you'd hear "I know I can never hear
exactly what's going out front. But if you give me the
mix in a monitor close enough to me to be the first thing
I hear, I can make a fair guess."

Depends on the size and acoustics of the venue. In a small-to-mid reasonably
acoustically live venue I'd probably be polite and try to comply, and think
that you had ummm, misplaced priorities.

The reason why is that I can't think of any reason why someone onstage
perfroming should be worrying about the house mix. The reason for that is
the fact that in a small to medium reasonably acoustically live venue, the
house mix is usually quite a bit different from what people in the house
actually hear.

[Roy W. Rising]

(Scott Dorsey) wrote:
Roy W. Rising wrote:

The Kingston Trio, Peter, Paul and Mary and The Limelighters always
sounded best when using a single cardioid mic. Recently, I saw a
Kingston Trio reunion video where they used six mics. It just didn't
sound the same!

Yeah, but when you try and give those guys a single mike today, they all
complain they want more foldback. People have gotten used to having all
that monitor level on stage and the concert levels are much higher than
they used to be too. Even for acoustic music that has no business being
loud.

It's really depressing, isn't it?
--scott

If I remember correctly, this thread is about *recording* an acoustic jazz
trio. All the stuff about foldback and house sound notwithstanding, a
single cardioid mic remains the best for the purpose.

Now, if a group like K.T. of P,P&M were to perform in a large concert venue
like they did back then, AND there was a contemporary high accuracy PA,
they still might prefer the single mic and the ability to hear themselves
(and each other)and blend in a way that just doesn't happen with six mics.

--
~ Roy
"If you notice the sound, it's wrong!"

[Emiliano Grilli]

On 20 Feb, 13:43, "Mike Rivers" wrote:
So? How did it come out?

Here are two premixes:

http://emillo.net/download/fidanza.mp3 (5046KB)
http://emillo.net/download/pippo_non_lo_sa.mp3 (4626KB)

Comments/criticism are welcome.
This should be my first (payed) job, so please be lenient. The group
is quite happy with the results, I asked them 150 eurobucks for a 10
song demo cd.

--
Emiliano Grilli
Linux user #209089
http://www.emillo.net

[Ty Ford]

On Fri, 23 Feb 2007 04:54:01 -0500, Emiliano Grilli wrote
(in article .com):

http://emillo.net/download/fidanza.mp3 (5046KB)
http://emillo.net/download/pippo_non_lo_sa.mp3

I listened to the first one.
Room's a little live. (or the mics are too far away)
Vocals are a bit far away from the mic.
Bass could be a little hotter.

What language?

Regards,

Ty

--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZJ9MptZmU

[Don Pearce]

On 21 Feb 2007 00:13:51 GMT, Roy W. Rising
wrote:

(Scott Dorsey) wrote:
Roy W. Rising wrote:

The Kingston Trio, Peter, Paul and Mary and The Limelighters always
sounded best when using a single cardioid mic. Recently, I saw a
Kingston Trio reunion video where they used six mics. It just didn't
sound the same!

Yeah, but when you try and give those guys a single mike today, they all
complain they want more foldback. People have gotten used to having all
that monitor level on stage and the concert levels are much higher than
they used to be too. Even for acoustic music that has no business being
loud.

It's really depressing, isn't it?
--scott

If I remember correctly, this thread is about *recording* an acoustic jazz
trio. All the stuff about foldback and house sound notwithstanding, a
single cardioid mic remains the best for the purpose.

Now, if a group like K.T. of P,P&M were to perform in a large concert venue
like they did back then, AND there was a contemporary high accuracy PA,
they still might prefer the single mic and the ability to hear themselves
(and each other)and blend in a way that just doesn't happen with six mics.

I guess if you are content with a mono recording that is true. But
most people these days expect stereo as a given. So a pair of XY or
ORTF cardioids might be preferred.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

[Emiliano Grilli]

On 23 Feb, 12:53, Ty Ford wrote:

http://emillo.net/download/fidanza.mp3(5046KB)
http://emillo.net/download/pippo_non_lo_sa.mp3

I listened to the first one.
Room's a little live. (or the mics are too far away)
Vocals are a bit far away from the mic.

I know... they also have a not-so-consistent mic technique, especially
the lead singer

Bass could be a little hotter.

Ok, good to know. I leave it a bit behind because I'm not sure of very
low frequencies, here (with yamaha msp5) there is almost nothing under
50Hz, so my fear is to exxagerate the bass.


What language?

Italian :-)


Regards,
Ty

Thank you for your comments.

--
Emiliano Grilli
Linux user #209089
http://www.emillo.net

[Peter Larsen]

Emiliano Grilli wrote:

I have to record a demo for a swing trio (double bass,
guitar and violin) all playing and singing toghether ...
snip ... I understand that separation is very difficult
to achieve with such a small room... should I insist that
they overdub the vocal parts?

You need balance, you need clarity and you need definition, you only
need separation in case of multimiking. A stereo pair will do nicely if
they are unamplified.

Emiliano Grilli

Regards

Peter Larsen

[Laurence Payne]

I have to record a demo for a swing trio (double bass,
guitar and violin) all playing and singing toghether ...
snip ... I understand that separation is very difficult
to achieve with such a small room... should I insist that
they overdub the vocal parts?

You need balance, you need clarity and you need definition, you only
need separation in case of multimiking. A stereo pair will do nicely if
they are unamplified.

And it's certainly none of your business to INSIST they forgo the
artistic interaction of a live performance. If they want a pan-potted
soundstage of close-miked instruments and voices, you could suggest
ways of achieving it. But this doesn't necessarily involve isolation
booths and multi-tracking. The inverse-square law is your friend.

[Peter Larsen]

Emiliano Grilli wrote:

I know it is post festum .... I just didn't have time to go into this
earlier, I will assume that this also is how you did it.

oktava mk012 hypercardioid on violin (1 or 2 feet from above)

Sounds OK.

sennheiser MD441 on double bass

Too far away. It might work well to wrap the MD21 in foam rubber and
stick it under the bridge, but using a smaller mic is probably better.

oktava mk012 hypercardioid on guitar

Kinda ok, certainly not too far away.

As for the voices, I don't know how is their microphone
technique, but I'm inclined to use dynamics, maybe the
two sm57 for backing vocals

They are a group, right?

and the audix OM5 for the leader, and tell them to sing quite close.

30 centimeters is OK in the context, this is not a rock concert, based
on the sound of the voices they got it right.

And maybe the sennheiser MD21 as room mike...

It can do *almost* anything. A stereo pair for room miking is imo
preferable if you have the input channels.

Thank you in advance for any suggestion

This is post festum, however I think you got it as right as it could be
with the available equipment, also I think the mix level of the bass is
OK, its sound quality is not very good so it had muddified the overall
sound if it was louder. It is probably possible to get a cleaner bass
sound via the same setup by a) miking the bass closer, b) high pass
filtering the voice mics and c) using a more linear room mic. The MD 21
can do a pretty good job for vox .... especially if you want a retro
kind of sound with big membrane anomalies ...

I understood it to be a live event, but it seems to be studio type
conditions, in which case two pairs, one near and one somewhat further
away might have done well, assuming their internal balance is OK, but it
is a lot easier to second guess than to be there.

Thank you for sharing, what I miss in the result is a better spatial
rendering and better ambience, it might have been better to opt for
using the octava pair as distant pair, but it gets a difficult choice
when a violin is involved.

You may want to get more experience with simple single pair stereo
recordings, they are a vital tool, also as a component in multimiked
recordings. When you use more than a single pair - or a decca tree or
some triad - you need to think in terms of layering already when
positioning the mics. This because the direct to reflected ratio in each
mic determines how far away that sound source is in the perspective and
it is not really possible to alter that perception afterwards. What you
can also not expect to be able to do is to pan a mic to the "other side"
of the stage, you need to respect absolute left and right in your mix,
you can move things closer to or farther from the center with the pan
pot, but you will contractict other audiotory clues if you try to cross
the centerline.

Your mileage may vary wildly, actual setups tend to differ and the rules
that apply are those that get the job done. With this one you certainly
landed on your feet.

Emiliano Grilli


Regards

Peter Larsen

[Arny Krueger]

"Laurence Payne" lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom wrote in
message
I have to record a demo for a swing trio (double bass,
guitar and violin) all playing and singing toghether ...
snip ... I understand that separation is very difficult
to achieve with such a small room... should I insist
that they overdub the vocal parts?

You need balance, you need clarity and you need
definition, you only need separation in case of
multimiking. A stereo pair will do nicely if they are
unamplified.

And it's certainly none of your business to INSIST they
forgo the artistic interaction of a live performance.

Amen, brother.

If
they want a pan-potted soundstage of close-miked
instruments and voices, you could suggest ways of
achieving it.

Multichannel, track-per-mic can do it in most cases. But artificial
isolation is rarely necesary, unless someone wants to take a performer
*entirely* out of the mix after the fact.

But this doesn't necessarily involve
isolation booths and multi-tracking.

Not both.

The inverse-square law is your friend.

So are mics like the OM5 that someone else recommended. IME bleed is a lot
worse in a large reverberent room than a small normal room.