On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 14:05:26 +0200, "Iain M Churches"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 12:57:39 +0200, "Iain M Churches"
wrote:


As a Swedish pal of mine puts it:
"The UK is a great place to be *from*

Iain


That works with or without the final word. London has just been voted
the city with the best food in the world - can't remember the source
but it wasn't UK.

d


Yes indeed. I visit London often. Lunch at the Savoy Grill is one
of the highlights. It's a fantastic city. I lived there for many years.
But now I am always glad to get away from the 12 million people -
that's more than the entire population of Sweden:-)

It's still a good place to be if you're out in the country, but with
easy access to the cities. I live about half an hour from Birmingham,
and an hour and a half from Central London, but I get hawks, pheasants
and foxes (not the urban kind!) in my garden all the time.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 21:28:07 +1100, "Phil Allison"
wrote:


"Jim Lesurf"
Phil Allison

The 63 was, however, a technically improved design - it was much
easier to manufacture, far more consistent sample to sample,
protected itself from overpowering, presented a benign load to the
amplifier,

Erm... word of caution here. The early issues of ESL63's actually have
a quite 'difficult' load characteristic.


** Where is your evidence of this ???????


1) In the early reviews. For example, in MC's reviews in 'Hi Fi Choice'
number 26, 1981. This shows a dip down to about 3 Ohms in the 10-15kHz
region, and also at 50Hz and below.

** In reality, it never falls below 4 ohms - as shown by innumerable
reviews by others.

Untrue, as the printed curves clearly show.

I asked for EVIDENCE - NOT ****ing dumb errors.

Check Hi-Fi Choice issues 26, 31 and 36, in each of which the
impedance curve is printed. It's not printed in Issue 46 of 1986, but
the same difficulty of drive is noted by Colloms.

He comments in that review that the 63
isn't as easy a load as Quad implied.

** So you have no evidence that the load other than benign at all.

See the impedance curve.

Look - I'll even make it **real ** easy for you - this URL has
response, impedance and full schematics dating from the first units in 1981
( Look under "Technical" )

http://www.euronet.nl/users/temagm/audio/esl63.htm

I await your reply or apology.

The shape is similar, Colloms detects a deeper dip around 10kHz. Take
it up with Moir and Colloms.

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
It's still a good place to be if you're out in the country, but with
easy access to the cities. I live about half an hour from Birmingham,
and an hour and a half from Central London, but I get hawks, pheasants
and foxes (not the urban kind!) in my garden all the time.
--

My main location is even more rural. Within a 2hr drive of the city
we have elk, wolves and brown bears (not in a zoo, roaming wild
in the forest:-)

Iain

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 16:44:57 +0800, "Phil's Mum"
wrote:

Above all, Phil is known mostly in several newsgroups for his inability to
carry on a rational discussion or debate on any subject without introducing
a personal insult (or five) and colouring his posts with the odd bit of
profanity.

I don't understand why everyone doesn't plonk the POS.

"Jim Lesurf"
Phil Allison

** Where is your evidence of "early issues" (what serial numbers ?)

See a reply I wrote and posted a little while ago. :-)


** The ****wit opinions of Martin Colloms are of no value or interest.

You made very specific claims - all false ones.






................ Phil

"Jim Lesurf"
Phil Allison

Look - I'll even make it **real ** easy for you - this URL has
response, impedance and full schematics dating from the first units in
1981 . ( Look under "Technical" )

http://www.euronet.nl/users/temagm/audio/esl63.htm

OK, I'll have a look when I get a chance and compare it with the service
manuals and reviews I have from the relevant periods. Thanks for the
URL. May be useful as another source of data if accurate.


However the diagrams seem to agree with
those I have, and confirm my understanding that the circuit, and the input
impedance, of the 63 did change from early to later issues.


** I see no change at all that would affect the input impedance.

Try posting some facts instead of pompously quoting you OWN wrong opinions
!!!



The 63 has an impedance that drops below 4 Ohms at some
frequencies and maybe down to about 3 Ohms in some board issues in some
circumstances.


** This you have UTTERLY failed to show.

The graph in the URL shows an impedance that remains above 4 ohms across the
whole audio band.

There were NO changes to circuit values in the path from speaker terminals
to the two input transformer primaries - including the 1989 version.

Tests published in ETI magazine by Louis Challis and Associates in Nov.
1982 of ESL63, s/n 8552 states:

" LF minimum at 10 Hz = 4.0 ohms ,

HF minimum at 10 kHz = 5.4 ohms. "



Taking the 303 and an example:


** The 303 will deliver 40 watts or more ( 16 volts rms) at any
frequency from 45 Hz to 5 kHz into an ESL63. It is not ideal for the '63
since it is not built to operate into 4 ohms - but there is no real
problem either.


The real values won't be exactly as
described here, but the point is that the amps the OP proposed to use
might
not find the 63 - particularly in some issues - a benign load in this
respect.


** You are still using a false claim you have NOT proved !!!

The input impedance of the ESL63 is ABOVE 4 ohms across the working range
!!

It is NOTHING like the ESL 57 that drops to 0.3 ohms at DC !!

The ESL 63 is **benign** since it will not cause damage to a direct
coupled SS amp like the ESL 57 can.

There was NO change in the ESL 63 load impedance as FALSELY asserted by YOU
..

**** off.



................ Phil

"Dave Plowman = ****ING CONTEXT REMOVER !!!!!!
Phil Allison

** That test was only done routinely with the ESL63 - manufactured
since 1982.

ESL 57s were never so consistent .

Well, apart from those before and after the power supply mods, Walker
said they were.

** Got a tape recording of that have you ???

No - it was an off the record conversation after an IBS meeting he'd been
invited to.

Even if you did - it does not constitute information about ESL 57s.

It's good enough for me.


** But you are a complete fool and a liar.



And I've had wildly varying serial numbers sent back for
overhaul and had them come back sounding the same.

** Yawn - more unsupported assertions involving you.

Considering each and every one was quality checked after repair I don't
find it unsupported?


** Using your own opinions as proof again - what worthless drivel.



And *he* told me matching pairs referred to the woodwork.

** Got a tape recording of that have you too ???

See above.


** Get ****ed.


Wonder what it is about this group that attracts some of the rudest
people on the net?


** What - lying idiots like you ?




.............. Phil

"Stewart Pinkerton"
"Phil Allison"


1) In the early reviews. For example, in MC's reviews in 'Hi Fi Choice'
number 26, 1981. This shows a dip down to about 3 Ohms in the 10-15kHz
region, and also at 50Hz and below.

** In reality, it never falls below 4 ohms - as shown by innumerable
reviews by others.

Untrue, as the printed curves clearly show.


** No they ****ing do not - more stinking LIES from Pinko the ****wit.

http://www.euronet.nl/users/temagm/audio/esl63.htm

The curve here shows the impedance is at or above 5 ohms from 80 Hz to 8
Hz - and just dipping to 4 ohms at 20 Hz.

Published data from ETI magazine, Nov 1982, states the LF min as 4.0 ohms at
10 Hz and the HF min as 5.4 ohms at 10kHz.

In comparison to the ESL 57, and many other speakers - this is a very benign
load characteristic.


Someone who has NO ****ING IDEA when the " Quad Electrostatic Loudspeaker
" was released needs to learn to ****ING SHUT UP !!!!!



............... Phil

"dizzy" wrote in message
...
: On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 16:44:57 +0800, "Phil's Mum"
: wrote:
:
: Above all, Phil is known mostly in several newsgroups for
his inability to
: carry on a rational discussion or debate on any subject
without introducing
: a personal insult (or five) and colouring his posts with
the odd bit of
: profanity.
:
: I don't understand why everyone doesn't plonk the POS.
:

I don't understand why Phil's Mum didn't practice safe sex
;-)

TT wrote:
"dizzy" wrote in message
...
: On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 16:44:57 +0800, "Phil's Mum"
: wrote:
:
: Above all, Phil is known mostly in several newsgroups for
his inability to
: carry on a rational discussion or debate on any subject
without introducing
: a personal insult (or five) and colouring his posts with
the odd bit of
: profanity.
:
: I don't understand why everyone doesn't plonk the POS.
:

I don't understand why Phil's Mum didn't practice safe sex
;-)


Normally one is allowed one mistake ?

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...
: :
: Someone (like Phil) who has NO F***ING IDEA when A "
Quad Electrostatic Loudspeaker : " is a DUD needs to learn
to F***ING SHUT UP !!!!!
:
:
:
: .............. Phil (AKA Quad Boy)
:
:
Come on Phil tell everyone here how **YOU** go about buying
dud ESL63s and then have to sue the dealer to get your money
back?

Come on?

Everyone here needs to know your *TRUE* level of total
incompetence and at the same time have a really jolly, good
old laugh at your expense.

Or perhaps you would prefer I told the story? BTW I
promise it will be the non-contradictory and facts omitted
version ;-)

TT

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:34:05 +1100, "Phil Allison"
wrote:


"Stewart Pinkerton"
"Phil Allison"


1) In the early reviews. For example, in MC's reviews in 'Hi Fi Choice'
number 26, 1981. This shows a dip down to about 3 Ohms in the 10-15kHz
region, and also at 50Hz and below.

** In reality, it never falls below 4 ohms - as shown by innumerable
reviews by others.

Untrue, as the printed curves clearly show.


** No they ****ing do not - more stinking LIES from Pinko the ****wit.

You really do need to try some new medication.

Someone who has NO ****ING IDEA when the " Quad Electrostatic Loudspeaker
" was released needs to learn to ****ING SHUT UP !!!!!

Sure I do, now that the original misunderstanding has been cleared up.
Some of us learn and move on, others just scream ever more loudly.
Unfortunately for you, you can't increase the font size of your
capitals on my screen..........................
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 21:25:08 +0200, "Iain M Churches"
wrote:


"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
.. .
It's still a good place to be if you're out in the country, but with
easy access to the cities. I live about half an hour from Birmingham,
and an hour and a half from Central London, but I get hawks, pheasants
and foxes (not the urban kind!) in my garden all the time.
--

My main location is even more rural. Within a 2hr drive of the city
we have elk, wolves and brown bears (not in a zoo, roaming wild
in the forest:-)

I trust you don't drive an A-class Merc! :-)
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 13:42:48 +1100, "Phil Allison"
wrote:


"Jim Lesurf"
Phil Allison

** Where is your evidence of "early issues" (what serial numbers ?)

See a reply I wrote and posted a little while ago. :-)


** The ****wit opinions of Martin Colloms are of no value or interest.

Not opinions, you cretin, measured and published impedance curves.

You made very specific claims - all false ones.

Jim doesn't make false claims - unlike you.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:20:39 +1100, "Phil Allison"
wrote:

** I see no change at all that would affect the input impedance.

Try posting some facts instead of pompously quoting you OWN wrong opinions
!!!

Jim's posts are always polite and well argued, and are never pompous.
It would be well if you posted in a similar manner rather than
insulting him. His contributions are far more valuable than your
rants.

Please learn the distinction between reasoned disagreement and
unreasoned ranting.


--
Chris Isbell
Southampton, UK

"Chris Isbell"
"Phil Allison"


** I see no change at all that would affect the input impedance.

Try posting some facts instead of pompously quoting you OWN wrong opinions
!!!

Jim's posts are always polite and well argued,


** Absolute bull**** !!!!


and are never pompous.



** Like bloody hell they are not - and yours are 10 times worse.


**** off - arse licker.




............... Phil

"Stewart Pinkerton"...
"Phil Allison"


** The ****wit opinions of Martin Colloms are of no value or interest.

Not opinions, you cretin, measured and published impedance curves.



** Pinko the **** is so utterly ****ed in the head he has no idea what the
issue is.



You made very specific claims - all false ones.

Jim doesn't make false claims ...


** ROTFLMAO .....

From the biggest bloody LIAR on the NG !!!!




Stewart Pinkerton | A Sub Human, Criminal Piece of Garbage





.............. Phil

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Mike Coatham

wrote:

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message . BTW, no
ESL57 is half a century old, it first went on sale in 1966 - you're
too used to writing pot-boiler fiction.

The Quad Electrostatic was on sale in 1957 - and I have numerous
original Quad brochures from that time which clearly show that it was
on sale in 1957. It also appears in the HiFi Year Book of 1958 , this
being the earliest one I have. I don't know where your 1966 date came
from but it isn't correct.

The speaker is featured in an article in the 1957 yearbook, and described
in terms that indicated that at the time the article was written it was
not
yet one sale. I think the yearbooks were written and published 'early' so
as to have a long life as being for the 'current' year.

The first review of the ESL57 I'm aware of at the moment is in the
November
1957 issue of HFN, and that implies it was then on sale.

Slainte,
Just to follow up on this, I found a couple of interesting snippets whilst
unpacking all my books & reference material following a house shift. It's
amazing what you accumulate in 20 years between shifts.
I have a full set of Wireless Worlds from 1953 through to early '80's as
well Gramophone & HiFi News covering a similar period.
The November 1957 WW has a full page advert by Acoustical Manuf. Co. a.k.a.
as Quad. Along with a picture of the ESL, is the following statement -
"To those who are waiting the availability of this loudspeaker, we are very
pleased to say that it is now in production and that orders are being
accepted through our usual channels. It is likely that demand will exceed
supply for some time - in waiting for your delivery please remember that we
are allocating supplies as fairly as we can".
In the Gramophone for November 1957, the late Percy Wilson in 'Technical
Talk" reporting on the British Sound Recording Assn's annual exhibition
detailed that a Mr Philip Tandy had won a raffle for the first ESL off
production i.e. Serial No. 1.
So I think we can safely deduce that production started in October or
November 1957.

Mike

"Stewart Pinkerton"
"Phil Allison"



** In reality, it never falls below 4 ohms - as shown by innumerable
reviews by others.

Untrue, as the printed curves clearly show.


** No they ****ing do not - more stinking LIES from Pinko the ****wit.

You really do need to try some new medication.



** Pinko needs to try a nice big dose of RAT poison.



Someone who has NO ****ING IDEA when the " Quad Electrostatic
Loudspeaker
" was released needs to learn to ****ING SHUT UP !!!!!

Sure I do, now that the original misunderstanding has been cleared up.


** Its was completely ASININE and Pinko abused those posting well known
facts.

No apology in sight of course.

As expected from this piece of Pommy Human Garbage.






............... Phil

Phial Allison wrote:
"Stewart Pinkerton"
"Phil Allison"



Perhaps another few complaints to fills isp might help or maybe
individual.net seeing of late he has been a total spank .

In article , Mike Coatham

wrote:

Just to follow up on this, I found a couple of interesting snippets
whilst unpacking all my books & reference material following a house
shift. It's amazing what you accumulate in 20 years between shifts. I
have a full set of Wireless Worlds from 1953 through to early '80's as
well Gramophone & HiFi News covering a similar period.

ahem If you ever want to make room by getting rid of them - think of me.
8-]

I still have some yawning gaps in my collection of HFN pre about 1967.


The November 1957 WW has a full page advert by Acoustical Manuf. Co.
a.k.a. as Quad. Along with a picture of the ESL, is the following
statement - "To those who are waiting the availability of this
loudspeaker, we are very pleased to say that it is now in production
and that orders are being accepted through our usual channels. It is
likely that demand will exceed supply for some time - in waiting for
your delivery please remember that we are allocating supplies as fairly
as we can". In the Gramophone for November 1957, the late Percy Wilson
in 'Technical Talk" reporting on the British Sound Recording Assn's
annual exhibition detailed that a Mr Philip Tandy had won a raffle for
the first ESL off production i.e. Serial No. 1. So I think we can safely
deduce that production started in October or November 1957.

Mike. I'd love to have good scans or xeroxs of the above. Any chance that
you would be happy to let me have copies? Happy to supply other documents
in exchange.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

In article , Phil Allison
wrote:

I'll try once more to make a polite and reasoned response. But if that
simply prompts more irrelevant abuse I'll have to conclude that I have
better things to do than try again... :-)

[snip]

http://www.euronet.nl/users/temagm/audio/esl63.htm

OK, I'll have a look when I get a chance and compare it with the
service manuals and reviews I have from the relevant periods. Thanks
for the URL. May be useful as another source of data if accurate.


However the diagrams seem to agree with those I have, and confirm my
understanding that the circuit, and the input impedance, of the 63 did
change from early to later issues.


** I see no change at all that would affect the input impedance.

One example: Try looking at C14 in the early issue diagrams (1.5
microfrarads shunting across the two primary windings). Note that the
circuit associated with this changes from issue 1 to issue 2. Note also
that by the 1989 version of the diagrams C14 and its associated circuits
have been removed entirely.

The above arrangement is driven from the signal inputs and affects the
input impedance.

Above data taken directly from the QUAD service data and manuals. Not via
Martin Colloms or any other reviewer. :-)

Try posting some facts instead of pompously quoting you OWN wrong
opinions !!!

Try listening to some Brahms. I can recommend the second symphony as being
very calming and pleasing. :-)

The 63 has an impedance that drops below 4 Ohms at some frequencies
and maybe down to about 3 Ohms in some board issues in some
circumstances.

[snip]

There were NO changes to circuit values in the path from speaker
terminals to the two input transformer primaries - including the
1989 version.

See the above. :-) Components in series with the transformer primaries
remained nominally unchanged. But the shunt didn't. The network near the
far end of the transmission line also changed, and this can also be
expected to have some effect.

[snip]


Taking the 303 and an example:


** The 303 will deliver 40 watts or more ( 16 volts rms) at any
frequency from 45 Hz to 5 kHz into an ESL63. It is not ideal for the '63
since it is not built to operate into 4 ohms - but there is no real
problem either.

Pleased to see that you acknowledge the combination as "not ideal". That
was what I was trying to convey. :-)

Unfortunately we can't guarantee that all musical waveforms that people
wish to reproduce will be confined entirely to the 45Hz to 5kHz range.
Hence the properties of the amp and speaker above 5kHz may well be a
factor.

My main point was that the impedance of the ESL63 drops to a level that
means that an amp like the 303 may become quite limited in the signal
voltages it can provide, depending on the musical waveforms involved.
You acknowlege this when you comment that the 303 was "not built to operate
into 4 Ohms". Hence it looks like we actually agree about this.

It seems to me that a potential user of such a combination might find it
more useful to be aware of this than to simply be told the speaker is
"benign" with no qualifications. Given the information, the potential user
can then make their own decision on an informed basis. I hope the OP might
find this useful - although I fear he may have abandoned this thread by
now.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:25:00 +1100, "Phil Allison"
wrote:


** Like bloody hell they are not - and yours are 10 times worse.


**** off - arse licker.

Q.E.D. Plonk.


--
Chris Isbell
Southampton, UK

::To all who may be concerned

We have had some complaints about our model A Tourette sim
personality having a somewhat limited vocabulary. This is true.
In our defense, it was a long hot summer, so we dispensed with
much of the voc and went for the tan.

We are happy to report, our advanced B model is in the early alpha stage.
Soon, Phil Betterson, featuring a mkII adaptive Tourette engine will be
available. Njoy.

Phil Labs
we create real sims


: Phil Allison wrote:
:
: ** I have never heard of any blatantly criminal, maliciously libelling,
: incorrigibly lying, artistically mentally defective, pig ignorant
: bricklayer and tone deaf ****WIT who ever bought a pair either.
:
: What a VILE piece of sub human ****e like Pat Turner has **NOT** heard of
: could fill the known universe ten times.
:
: **** the hell off Turneroid - you ARE a stinking criminal arsehole
: !!!!!!!!
:
: ............ Phil
:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Mike Coatham

wrote:

Just to follow up on this, I found a couple of interesting snippets
whilst unpacking all my books & reference material following a house
shift. It's amazing what you accumulate in 20 years between shifts. I
have a full set of Wireless Worlds from 1953 through to early '80's as
well Gramophone & HiFi News covering a similar period.

ahem If you ever want to make room by getting rid of them - think of
me.
8-]

I still have some yawning gaps in my collection of HFN pre about 1967.


The November 1957 WW has a full page advert by Acoustical Manuf. Co.
a.k.a. as Quad. Along with a picture of the ESL, is the following
statement - "To those who are waiting the availability of this
loudspeaker, we are very pleased to say that it is now in production
and that orders are being accepted through our usual channels. It is
likely that demand will exceed supply for some time - in waiting for
your delivery please remember that we are allocating supplies as fairly
as we can". In the Gramophone for November 1957, the late Percy Wilson
in 'Technical Talk" reporting on the British Sound Recording Assn's
annual exhibition detailed that a Mr Philip Tandy had won a raffle for
the first ESL off production i.e. Serial No. 1. So I think we can safely
deduce that production started in October or November 1957.

Mike. I'd love to have good scans or xeroxs of the above. Any chance that
you would be happy to let me have copies? Happy to supply other documents
in exchange.

Slainte,

Jim

No problem to supply copies - I'll get on to it in the next day or so.
E-mail me direct with your address. I was going to scan them but the scanner
didn't like the shift and I haven't got around to making it work again.
Sigh.... not enough hours in the day to get everything done...

"Jim Lesurf"
Phil Allison

http://www.euronet.nl/users/temagm/audio/esl63.htm

** I see no change at all that would affect the input impedance.

One example: Try looking at C14 in the early issue diagrams (1.5
microfrarads shunting across the two primary windings). Note that the
circuit associated with this changes from issue 1 to issue 2.


** I take it you are not able to read and comprehend electronic circuits ??

Or are you now clutching at straws to defend an indefensible position ??



Note also
that by the 1989 version of the diagrams C14 and its associated circuits
have been removed entirely.


** Another network replaces its function - but on the secondary side.


The above arrangement is driven from the signal inputs and affects the
input impedance.


** Saying so does not make it true.

I take it you are not able to read and comprehend electronic circuits.

That circuit ( including C14 and the diode bridge) is quite inoperative
until the input voltage level is so high the speaker is at risk of damage.
Ergo - it has no effect on the load impedance at all normal levels.

Please - no more straw clutching.



Taking the 303 and an example:


** The 303 will deliver 40 watts or more ( 16 volts rms) at any
frequency from 45 Hz to 5 kHz into an ESL63. It is not ideal for the '63
since it is not built to operate into 4 ohms - but there is no real
problem either.

Pleased to see that you acknowledge the combination as "not ideal". That
was what I was trying to convey. :-)


** The 303 was never part of the issue in dispute - you introduced it as a
red-herring.

I remarked the ESL 63 had a "benign" load characteristic ( in comparison
with the ESL57 and other speakers ) - you said that was an untrue
statement for "early issues".

Your problem is to justify THAT statement.

Clearly you are not able - since it was false.


Unfortunately we can't guarantee that all musical waveforms that people
wish to reproduce will be confined entirely to the 45Hz to 5kHz range.


** The peak level of recorded music drops sharply at high frequencies -
so there is no need to have full amplifier output available at frequencies
of 5 kHz or above.

For example: the ESL57 drops to sharply 2 ohms at 18 kHz - however, the
303 was designed to and does drive it very well.


Hence the properties of the amp and speaker above 5kHz may well be a
factor.


** But you have no bloody idea at all.


My main point was .......

" I remarked the ESL 63 had a "benign" load characteristic ( in comparison
with the ESL57 and many other speakers ) - you said that was an untrue
statement for "early issues". "

You have presented *nothing* to demonstrate this since it was FALSE.

The 303 business is a red-herring - get off it !!


It seems to me that a potential user of such a combination might find it
more useful to be aware of this than to simply be told the speaker is
"benign" with no qualifications.


** Seems to word "benign" has you foxed - since you chose to interpret
it *out of context*.

The ESL 63 presents a "benign load" compared to the ESL57 and other
SLs - and compared with many other well known speakers. In the full power
band of recorded music ( 50 Hz to 2 kHz) the load presented is 8 ohms or
higher - it never falls below 4 ohms and rises above 8 ohms at 15 kHz and
beyond.





............... Phil

"Jim Gregory" wrote in message
...
: All this ping-pong about Quads prompts, cajoles me to ask:
: Whatever became of the Shackman ELS, each about the size of a door? Now,
: they sounded punchy and OK in the early '70s.
: And around then, there was another exotic, gas- or plasma-driven speaker
: thing, really, but I can't recollect its make.
:
Magnat, for one. DIYers make several, getting the ozone under control
is a problem. Google Magnat + plasma get's ya thousands of links
(many in german, prob.

Rudy

Some friends, working with the Austrian Radio ORF came, wondered what
that extra central heating was all about, then sat and listened: You
should have seen their faces! The best loudspeakers around!

Andre Jute wrote:
Peter Walker's ES:57 is simply the best-sounding loudspeaker ever
made. Anyone
who doesn't agree has some kind of odd requirement or prejudice,
which should
be stated when reporting hearsay.

On 18 Mar 2005 10:32:47 -0800, "quad_esl_fan1"
wrote:

Some friends, working with the Austrian Radio ORF came, wondered what
that extra central heating was all about, then sat and listened: You
should have seen their faces! The best loudspeakers around!

They're not around, they're a rectangle.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

quad_esl_fan1 wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
Peter Walker's ES:57 is simply the best-sounding loudspeaker ever
made. Anyone
who doesn't agree has some kind of odd requirement or prejudice,
which should
be stated when reporting hearsay.

Some friends, working with the Austrian Radio ORF came, wondered what
that extra central heating was all about, then sat and listened: You
should have seen their faces! The best loudspeakers around!

You say to this second hand furniture dealer, "Those two 1930's kitsch
oil heaters gathering dust against the back there will never sell, my
good man."

He tugs his forelock. "Mebbe, Guv, mebbe. But they mebbe clean up nice
for firescreen."

"Firescreens, eh? Her ladyship might like that! A tenner do you?"

"Bless you, Guv. I'll just have Billy throw them in the back of the
Range Rover."

"Here's your money but don't disturb Billy. I'll carry them out
myself."

And then, just as you have the ESL57, dusty but in good nick, that you
just bought for a tenner, in the car, you wake up...

Andre Jute
Life's a bitch, and then you die

wrote:

Some friends, working with the Austrian Radio ORF came, wondered what
that extra central heating was all about, then sat and listened: You
should have seen their faces! The best loudspeakers around!


You say to this second hand furniture dealer, "Those two 1930's kitsch
oil heaters gathering dust against the back there will never sell, my
good man."

He tugs his forelock. "Mebbe, Guv, mebbe. But they mebbe clean up nice
for firescreen."

"Firescreens, eh? Her ladyship might like that! A tenner do you?"

"Bless you, Guv. I'll just have Billy throw them in the back of the
Range Rover."

"Here's your money but don't disturb Billy. I'll carry them out
myself."

And then, just as you have the ESL57, dusty but in good nick, that you
just bought for a tenner, in the car, you wake up...

Andre Jute
Life's a bitch, and then you die

Now who was it that claimed to have bought a pair of ESLs for peanuts
from a dealer who thought they were heaters?

--
Eiron.

said:

You say to this second hand furniture dealer, "Those two 1930's kitsch
oil heaters gathering dust against the back there will never sell, my
good man."

He tugs his forelock. "Mebbe, Guv, mebbe. But they mebbe clean up nice
for firescreen."

"Firescreens, eh? Her ladyship might like that! A tenner do you?"

"Bless you, Guv. I'll just have Billy throw them in the back of the
Range Rover."

"Here's your money but don't disturb Billy. I'll carry them out
myself."

And then, just as you have the ESL57, dusty but in good nick, that you
just bought for a tenner, in the car, you wake up...

Andre Jute
Life's a bitch, and then you die


LOL!!! Did that actually happen to you, Andre? ;-)

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

Sander deWaal wrote:
said:

You say to this second hand furniture dealer, "Those two 1930's
kitsch
oil heaters gathering dust against the back there will never sell,
my
good man."

He tugs his forelock. "Mebbe, Guv, mebbe. But they mebbe clean up
nice
for firescreen."

"Firescreens, eh? Her ladyship might like that! A tenner do you?"

"Bless you, Guv. I'll just have Billy throw them in the back of the
Range Rover."

"Here's your money but don't disturb Billy. I'll carry them out
myself."

And then, just as you have the ESL57, dusty but in good nick, that
you
just bought for a tenner, in the car, you wake up...

Andre Jute
Life's a bitch, and then you die


LOL!!! Did that actually happen to you, Andre? ;-)

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

Besides having good judgement, I'm one of the luckiest guys in the
world, otherwise I wouldn't be here writing this. I was given a pair of
ESL57. I was given the set of Quad II/22 that were the Philips design
studio reference (they're being kept for my retirement). But I still
have that dream of the ESL mistaken for heaters...

There was a very funny discussion on the Joenet once; it exposed all
the trans-Atlantic misunderstandings. It started with me writing to
some agreeable chap who had just found something insanely great in a
dumpster that I envied him, surrounded by all those old Dynacos and
other gear, being able to pick something out of a dumpster and all
those super garage sales we heard about and envied. I added that I had
never as much as seen a Radford then under discussion on the Joenet in
a separate thread.

Well, you never saw such an explosion of sour bile. It turned out the
Americans didn't have it all that easy finding good stuff, and even
before the rise of Ebay a lot of what they did find was pre-wrecked and
expensive. The lucky guy, who had a track record of being walking past
the right dumpsters, was vilified as a scavenger who didn't share...

It turned out the Americans were envious of us Europeans, and
especially the British. They thought we just ordered classic gear by
picking up the phone. I had just come off the phone from Haden
Boardman, who didn't sound at all confident of finding me a good one of
whatever I wanted, or even a rebuildable one. "All gone to Japan," he
said. I knew that already. The best pair of QII I own were reimported
from Japan. But the Americans insisted. It turned out they had been
passing around a copy of HFN&RR which carried, in the news section at
the front somewhere, a small picture of a Leak on the open tailgate of
a Range Ranger. Beyond it you could vaguely make out a whole row of
Range Rovers with open tailgaites. The Americans pored over this piccie
and totally misinterpreted it. They thought British audiophiles went
to this "meadow fayre" and bought for pennies from distressed
gentlefolk insanely great audio gear.

They were *very* disillusioned when I gave the name, address and
telephone number of the dealer who owned the first Range Rover,
together with the information that he not only knew the value of the
Leak precisely but asked a premium for it having been in the magazine!
(Of course on top of the premium for the upkeep of his Range Rover.)

Even for lucky guys it is no longer easy. I know where there is a pair
of carefully used, long since dustsheeted--and therefore virtuallly new
ESL57. This year it will be 25 years that I have been trying to buy
them. "Then leave them to me in your will!"

Andre Jute

said:

snip

Even for lucky guys it is no longer easy. I know where there is a pair
of carefully used, long since dustsheeted--and therefore virtuallly new
ESL57. This year it will be 25 years that I have been trying to buy
them. "Then leave them to me in your will!"


Heh!

OTOH, there was a German guy here recently who actually found a
Radford STA25 with accompanying SC22, in (what turned out to be)
perfect working order . Just needed some cleaning and painting.....
( Hi Walter, how about an update?).

My best dumpster find was a Philips Receiving Tube Data Book 1968, so
I won't complain ;-)

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

François Yves Le Gal said:

Sander, plesae don't believe a single word of what the Jute scumbag writes:
he's a liar and a crook. Check his pedigree on Google news if you want more
information on him, his lies and his methods.


I have never encountered any problems with Andre.
In fact, the opposite is true.
He once promised me to send me some CDs for my wife.
The next week, a package arrived, filled with CDs, free of costs and
shipping.

In any correspondention with him on the newsgroups he's been every
inch a gentleman to me.

The same goes for Stewart Pinkerton, BTW.
He has helped me and another RAT poster out with some money order
problems, free of charge and in the most friendly way I'd ever
imagined.

Those were real life situations, and in my opinion, that says lots
more about a person than any possible usenet output.

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

BobC is back, reincarnated as Francois Yves Le Gal. Looks like Little
Francois has been *in communication* with Michael LaFevre! Deny it if
you can, fellow. -- Andre Jute

Sander deWaal laughed at a joke by Andre Jute:
Heh!

Fran=E7ois Yves Le Gal whined:
Sander, plesae don't believe a single word of what the Jute scumbag
writes:
he's a liar and a crook. Check his pedigree on Google news if you
want more
information on him, his lies and his methods.

Sander deWaal reported:
I have never encountered any problems with Andre.
etc

Fran=E7ois Yves Le Gal insists:
Then you don't know him.

in article ,
at wrote on 3/19/05 6:21 PM:


BobC is back, reincarnated as Francois Yves Le Gal. Looks like Little
Francois has been *in communication* with Michael LaFevre! Deny it if
you can, fellow. -- Andre Jute


I'm so sick of your paranoid delusions that I'm gonna find a way to contact
this fellow Michael and invite him and all of his buddies back to this N.G.

Give it a rest, wacko.

The dishonest garage trader Jon Yaeger wrote:
in article ,
at wrote on 3/19/05 6:21 PM:


BobC is back, reincarnated as Francois Yves Le Gal. Looks like
Little
Francois has been *in communication* with Michael LaFevre! Deny it
if
you can, fellow. -- Andre Jute


I'm so sick of your paranoid delusions that I'm gonna find a way to
contact
this fellow Michael and invite him and all of his buddies back to
this N.G.

Give it a rest, wacko.

I doubt Mikey will take your call, ever again, Yaeger. You praised
Michael LaFevre's Magnequest transformers to the skies while you hoped
to sell them to West but after I exposed the amp on which you had them
as a hatchet job and he transformers as overpriced boutique items for
the faithful, within hours you were admitting that you were ripping of
the Magnequests and replacing them with Dynaco transformers. Mikey is
probably wishing you dead.

But it you seriously want to invite LaCreepy back, talk to your
bumbuddy the little French fascist Francois. He actually bought his
transformers from Magnequest, so Mikey will certainly take his call,
especially as poor Francois has recently been Mikey's sock puppet. This
text below is straight from Creepy LaFevre, his hand up Francois Le
Gal's arse. We have seen the same text hundreds of times on RAT, often
daily. It is interesting that you little Magnequest ******s (you hoping
to sell some, Le Gall hoping I won't knock the **** out of the value of
his), normally so keen to spit your googling in my face, suddenly can't
find the on switches on your computers. Here is the giveaway text;
check it out:

Fran=E7ois Yves Le Gal whined:

Sander, plesae don't believe a single word of what the Jute scumbag
writes:
he's a liar and a crook. Check his pedigree on Google news if you
want more
information on him, his lies and his methods.

Always nice to hear from you, Jon-John. By the way, have you asked West
yet what he thinks of your disreputable business methods?

Andre Jute

Sander deWaal wrote:

François Yves Le Gal said:

Sander, plesae don't believe a single word of what the Jute scumbag writes:
he's a liar and a crook. Check his pedigree on Google news if you want more
information on him, his lies and his methods.

I have never encountered any problems with Andre.
In fact, the opposite is true.
He once promised me to send me some CDs for my wife.
The next week, a package arrived, filled with CDs, free of costs and
shipping.

In any correspondention with him on the newsgroups he's been every
inch a gentleman to me.

The same goes for Stewart Pinkerton, BTW.
He has helped me and another RAT poster out with some money order
problems, free of charge and in the most friendly way I'd ever
imagined.

Those were real life situations, and in my opinion, that says lots
more about a person than any possible usenet output.

Anyone who tries to have a high profile on a news group will gather enemies,
if his reason of being is to unravel pet theories, and criticise the flatus quo,

and generally be very opinionated, and claim making.

If they do it like a gentleman, ok, but if all they can do is personally
humiliate,
and kick ppl in their testicles, then they should expect some flak.


I got given a TD160 with a Grado cart, and some Technics TT with a Shure V15;
the guy who gave it to me nor myself knew what it was worth,
so I accepted it as a payment on a speaker repair.
The TD is still fine, but the Grado went open after 6mths, so I went to the
Shure v15.
I got rid of the Technics abomination, some el cheapom model,
and I recently parked the V15, since I was able to acquire an MC Denon 103
from a spare parts supplier, brand new, for usd $130.
After one bar of music the Denon justified my parking of the MM Shure.

But not much else has dropped into my lap free.
One ham radio operator left me all his old junk.
I have a shirtload of work ahead restoring it; it took me days to
build enough shelving under cover to store it all.

Households have been given dumper bins now, and these are wheeled out to
the edge of the roadside the night before re-cycling rubbish pick up day once a
fortnight.
One would have to be keen to examine say 50 bins on dark evenings with a torch.
The bins are tall and narrow, so although an ARC amp might lurk at the bottom of
a bin,
its covered by newpapers and bottles, and would remain unseen, and I for one
refuse to tip
out the contents of everyone's bin onto the road to find the occasional ARC amp,

or even a dusty old Leak. I would be arrested.
An an ARC amp probably with a shorted OPT isn't worth a jail sentence.
All old electrical gear
just gets compacted into trucks, and sent to the sorters and crushers,
and old valve gear rarely ever gets seen being dumped at open tips,
where the scavengers and re-cyclers leap upon it to
and convey it away to ppl who have paid them a little cash to
retrieve anything with a vacuum tube within.
The recycling shops near the tips are thus not the places they were.
People have now to pay to dump their rubbish should their want to do
so from their boot, trailer, or utility.
I did once pluck a Geloso PA amp from the ground moments before the
bulldozer ran over where it lay.
After a rebuild, I sold it for a few hundred bucks to a muso who had an
identical one
and who wanted a pair.

I never enjoy the experience of going to the tip like I used to.
This joy is anther thing that has been removed from me by zealous city
administrators
in the name of efficiency, and doing the right thing by the environment,
so that now a person will leave behind them about 100 tonnes of rubbish
after a lifetime, instead of 200 tonnes, not including motor vehicles,
sunken yacts, crahed aeroplanes, roads, fences, rotted buildings, greenhouse
gases,
old nuclear power stations, obsolete military and farming gear, and old PCs etc.

Does anyone expect that such rubbish reductions will save the planet?

6 billion x 200 tonnes = 1,200 billion tonnes in the next 70 years.
Its a wild guess, but christy moses, itsa large POS.



Patrick Turner.



--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

OK, Jutey-Fruity, you deserve a Pinko-style reply:


The dishonest garage trader Jon Yaeger wrote:

I'm so sick of your paranoid delusions that I'm gonna find a way to
contact this fellow Michael and invite him and all of his buddies back to
this N.G.

Give it a rest, wacko.

I doubt Mikey will take your call, ever again, Yaeger. You praised
Michael LaFevre's Magnequest transformers to the skies

*** I said they sounded competent. You added the hyperbole. I asked if
anyone else had used them, and what they thought. Ned provided some very
interesting test data, but virtually nobody else answered my question
directly.

while you hoped
to sell them to West but after I exposed the amp on which you had them
as a hatchet job

***


and he transformers as overpriced boutique items for
the faithful, within hours you were admitting that you were ripping of
the Magnequests and replacing them with Dynaco transformers. Mikey is
probably wishing you dead.

*** Actually, the impedance of the Magnequests aren't ideal for my
application. In any event, the Dynas have a marvelous reputation and I'd
expect them to be better than Magnequest. Just a hunch.

But it you seriously want to invite LaCreepy back, talk to your
bumbuddy the little French fascist Francois. He actually bought his
transformers from Magnequest, so Mikey will certainly take his call,
especially as poor Francois has recently been Mikey's sock puppet. This
text below is straight from Creepy LaFevre, his hand up Francois Le
Gal's arse. We have seen the same text hundreds of times on RAT, often
daily. It is interesting that you little Magnequest ******s (you hoping
to sell some, Le Gall hoping I won't knock the **** out of the value of
his), normally so keen to spit your googling in my face, suddenly can't
find the on switches on your computers. Here is the giveaway text;
check it out:

*** Yves is good people, Jute. You're still an asshole. Can't speak for
LaFevre. Yet.

François Yves Le Gal whined:

Sander, plesae don't believe a single word of what the Jute scumbag
writes:
he's a liar and a crook. Check his pedigree on Google news if you
want more
information on him, his lies and his methods.

***

Always nice to hear from you, Jon-John. By the way, have you asked West
yet what he thinks of your disreputable business methods?

*** No, I sure haven't, Andre. Do tell. It's news to me. I've never done
business with West; I never quoted him a price on the Magnequest iron. Our
e-mails have always been cordial, and I've tried to be helpful to him on
other matters. I welcome his feedback, pro or con.

*** BTW, my feedback on eBay would be 100% positive if it weren't for two
fellows who left retaliatory feedback when I dinged them for ripping me off.
Read the comments if you like - jono-ats is my eBay handle.

*** Opps! I violated my own rule against trying to reason with an
irrational man.


Andre Jute