Lines: 30
Message-ID:
X-Complaints-To:
X-Abuse-Info: Please forward a copy of all headers for proper handling
X-Trace: ogjnolidcdijhjikdbdpiflmbcekedmfhojhikkbagflhcboae kiebjilfgjnppclpjkdigebcpgalpfpjakmnmgmfhmfhpfebpa mpcacipjdoaoiappjocnkcmaphjmonjbihaccjbfnnnlcnpdjn lfiihalnbd
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 13:01:44 EST
Organization: BellSouth Internet Group
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 18:01:44 GMT
Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com rec.audio.pro:1221345


Mike RIvers wrote:
I think, given your level of experience at this, that you should
track drums straight without compression, and then experiment
with compression in the digital domain on your previously
recorded tracks
snip
I think we may be seeing the "If I put a compressor ahead of the
sound card I won't have to worry about digital overs" syndrome here.
Of course this is the wrong approach.
By recording without compression, he'll learn soon enough how to set
the record level so that he won't hit the A/D converter too hard,
and then he'll have good drum or vocal tracks with which to
experiment.
He's heard of others using this approach, and a compressor
he's heard can be used as a limiter, wrong application of
the tool, but the tool he has.
"WHen the only tool you have is a hammer everything begins
to look like a nail."

Quoted as I don't remember where I heard it first.



Richard WEbb,
Electric SPider Productions
Replace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real
email address.

Im looking into getting a compressor to complement my Rode NTK and my
Presonus Firepod. The FMR has got raving review, and since i have a tiny
budget (~300) i could pick up two of these and have 4 channels of
compression to use for drums. I also looked at the ART Pro Channel Tube....

TWO problems with FMR RNC 1773:

Linked stereo: I am going record all instruments MONO so this isnt
really a problem EXCEPT for drums where i am going to use 4 mics (sm57,
kick mic, NTK, and Sure PG58). This is where having NON-LINKED channels
i think would be a benefit. Please explain if i am wrong, but i assume
that the kick will require a "soft-knee" type of compression, and the
snare and overhead will require a quicker compression. Since the
channels are "linked" i wont be able to set the kick slower. Am i wrong?

Unbalanced I/O:
I am not sure how to hook up my NTK to an unbalanced source. I DONT HAVE
A MIXER. I was going to use CUBASE SX to mix (bad idea?). I do have an
old Peavey 12 Ch Stereo Mixing PA, but i dont think it is well suited
for this, however i think it is all unbalanced. Any ideas? I know that
my Firepod has two unbalanced inputs, but i dont understand how to get
the input from the NTK to the compressor to the Firepod. (NTK -- FMR
-- Firepod) ??

Thanks,
Chris

C-Man wrote:
Im looking into getting a compressor to complement my Rode NTK and my
Presonus Firepod. .

TWO problems with FMR RNC 1773:

Linked stereo: I am going record all instruments MONO so this isnt
really a problem EXCEPT for drums where i am going to use 4 mics (sm57,
kick mic, NTK, and Sure PG58). This is where having NON-LINKED channels
i think would be a benefit.

The RNC is kind of like a single-channel compressor (in price and
controls) and you get a second linked channel at no extra cost should
you need it. If you need four independent channels of compression, buy
four RNCs. Or buy something else. You don't want to use two linked
channels for two indepndent signals.

Please explain if i am wrong, but i assume
that the kick will require a "soft-knee" type of compression, and the
snare and overhead will require a quicker compression.

There's nothing that dictates this, however regardless of what kind of
gain reduction characteristic you have, you probably don't want to
apply the same compression to the kick and snare unless they're coming
in on the same channel, or as part of a whole stereo mix of a drum kit.
Besides, where does it say that your drums need any compression
whatsoever? There are no rules here.

Unbalanced I/O:
I am not sure how to hook up my NTK to an unbalanced source. I DONT HAVE
A MIXER.

Isn't an NTK a microphoe? You don't hook a microphone to a source
(other than perhaps a source of phantom power). If you're thinking you
can connect your microphone directly to the input of the compressor, no
you can't. It's not a matter of whether it's balanced or unbalanced,
it's a matter of powering the microphone and having enough input
sensitivity to work with a microphone signal.

And if NTK isn't a microphone, please use plain language. We're not all
as hip as you.

Now the way you can use a microphone and the RNC with a Firepod is like
this:

Plug the microphone into one of the Mic inputs of the Firepod, say
Channel 1. Turn on the phantom power. Now, patch the analog output of
Channel 1 to the input of one channel of the compressor, and the output
of the compressor to the Line Input of another channel of the Firepod,
say Channel 5. Now, record the Firewire output of Channel 5. That will
be the compressed microphone signal. Don't sweat the balanced or
unbalanced issue. It doesn't matter.

C-Man wrote:
Im looking into getting a compressor to complement my Rode NTK and my
Presonus Firepod. The FMR has got raving review, and since i have a tiny
budget (~300) i could pick up two of these and have 4 channels of
compression to use for drums. I also looked at the ART Pro Channel Tube....

TWO problems with FMR RNC 1773:

Linked stereo: I am going record all instruments MONO so this isnt
really a problem EXCEPT for drums where i am going to use 4 mics (sm57,
kick mic, NTK, and Sure PG58). This is where having NON-LINKED channels
i think would be a benefit. Please explain if i am wrong, but i assume
that the kick will require a "soft-knee" type of compression, and the
snare and overhead will require a quicker compression. Since the
channels are "linked" i wont be able to set the kick slower. Am i wrong?

The linked compression is more than that. When one channel compresses,
both channels compress.

You CANNOT use the two halves independently as two mono compressors. You
have to use it as a stereo compressor. For $200, what do you want? There
is only one control circuit in there for both channels.

The thing about the FMR is that it sounds good. For $200, that's a
bloody miracle.

Unbalanced I/O:
I am not sure how to hook up my NTK to an unbalanced source. I DONT HAVE
A MIXER. I was going to use CUBASE SX to mix (bad idea?). I do have an
old Peavey 12 Ch Stereo Mixing PA, but i dont think it is well suited
for this, however i think it is all unbalanced. Any ideas? I know that
my Firepod has two unbalanced inputs, but i dont understand how to get
the input from the NTK to the compressor to the Firepod. (NTK -- FMR
-- Firepod) ??

The compressor wants line level signal. It goes between a preamp and
a recorder. You cannot plug a mike into it without a preamp (or
the preamp section of a console, or some other thing to provide 40 dB
or so of gain). This is the way _all_ compressors are.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Mike Rivers wrote:

C-Man wrote:

Im looking into getting a compressor to complement my Rode NTK and my
Presonus Firepod. .

TWO problems with FMR RNC 1773:

Linked stereo: I am going record all instruments MONO so this isnt
really a problem EXCEPT for drums where i am going to use 4 mics (sm57,
kick mic, NTK, and Sure PG58). This is where having NON-LINKED channels
i think would be a benefit.


The RNC is kind of like a single-channel compressor (in price and
controls) and you get a second linked channel at no extra cost should
you need it. If you need four independent channels of compression, buy
four RNCs. Or buy something else. You don't want to use two linked
channels for two indepndent signals.


Please explain if i am wrong, but i assume
that the kick will require a "soft-knee" type of compression, and the
snare and overhead will require a quicker compression.


There's nothing that dictates this, however regardless of what kind of
gain reduction characteristic you have, you probably don't want to
apply the same compression to the kick and snare unless they're coming
in on the same channel, or as part of a whole stereo mix of a drum kit.
Besides, where does it say that your drums need any compression
whatsoever? There are no rules here.

That would make it way easier if i didnt use compression on the drums...


Unbalanced I/O:
I am not sure how to hook up my NTK to an unbalanced source. I DONT HAVE
A MIXER.


Isn't an NTK a microphoe? You don't hook a microphone to a source
(other than perhaps a source of phantom power). If you're thinking you
can connect your microphone directly to the input of the compressor, no
you can't. It's not a matter of whether it's balanced or unbalanced,
it's a matter of powering the microphone and having enough input
sensitivity to work with a microphone signal.

And if NTK isn't a microphone, please use plain language. We're not all
as hip as you.

You're right: 1. The NTK is a valve microphone with its own power source
(so i wont need phantom), and 2. I *was* thinking i could connect the
microphone directly to the input of the compressor. I am very
unexperienced in using processors etc. Your next paragraph was very
enlightening...

Now the way you can use a microphone and the RNC with a Firepod is like
this:

Plug the microphone into one of the Mic inputs of the Firepod, say
Channel 1. Turn on the phantom power. Now, patch the analog output of
Channel 1 to the input of one channel of the compressor, and the output
of the compressor to the Line Input of another channel of the Firepod,
say Channel 5. Now, record the Firewire output of Channel 5. That will
be the compressed microphone signal. Don't sweat the balanced or
unbalanced issue. It doesn't matter.


Thank you. That clears up a LOT.
Chris

Scott Dorsey wrote:

C-Man wrote:

Im looking into getting a compressor to complement my Rode NTK and my
Presonus Firepod. The FMR has got raving review, and since i have a tiny
budget (~300) i could pick up two of these and have 4 channels of
compression to use for drums. I also looked at the ART Pro Channel Tube....

TWO problems with FMR RNC 1773:

Linked stereo: I am going record all instruments MONO so this isnt
really a problem EXCEPT for drums where i am going to use 4 mics (sm57,
kick mic, NTK, and Sure PG58). This is where having NON-LINKED channels
i think would be a benefit. Please explain if i am wrong, but i assume
that the kick will require a "soft-knee" type of compression, and the
snare and overhead will require a quicker compression. Since the
channels are "linked" i wont be able to set the kick slower. Am i wrong?


The linked compression is more than that. When one channel compresses,
both channels compress.

You CANNOT use the two halves independently as two mono compressors. You
have to use it as a stereo compressor. For $200, what do you want? There
is only one control circuit in there for both channels.

The thing about the FMR is that it sounds good. For $200, that's a
bloody miracle.

Yeah. I understood that the compressor applies identical compression to
both channels; thats why its a problem. Especially if the two sources
required different types of compression (i.e. soft(kick) and quick(snare)).

Unbalanced I/O:
I am not sure how to hook up my NTK to an unbalanced source. I DONT HAVE
A MIXER. I was going to use CUBASE SX to mix (bad idea?). I do have an
old Peavey 12 Ch Stereo Mixing PA, but i dont think it is well suited
for this, however i think it is all unbalanced. Any ideas? I know that
my Firepod has two unbalanced inputs, but i dont understand how to get
the input from the NTK to the compressor to the Firepod. (NTK -- FMR
-- Firepod) ??


The compressor wants line level signal. It goes between a preamp and
a recorder. You cannot plug a mike into it without a preamp (or
the preamp section of a console, or some other thing to provide 40 dB
or so of gain). This is the way _all_ compressors are.
--scott

I didnt know or understand this. Thanks!
Chris

C-Man wrote:

Mike Rivers wrote:

C-Man wrote:

Im looking into getting a compressor to complement my Rode NTK and my
Presonus Firepod. .

TWO problems with FMR RNC 1773:

Linked stereo: I am going record all instruments MONO so this isnt
really a problem EXCEPT for drums where i am going to use 4 mics (sm57,
kick mic, NTK, and Sure PG58). This is where having NON-LINKED channels
i think would be a benefit.

The RNC is kind of like a single-channel compressor (in price and
controls) and you get a second linked channel at no extra cost should
you need it. If you need four independent channels of compression, buy
four RNCs. Or buy something else. You don't want to use two linked
channels for two indepndent signals.

Please explain if i am wrong, but i assume
that the kick will require a "soft-knee" type of compression, and the
snare and overhead will require a quicker compression.

There's nothing that dictates this, however regardless of what kind of
gain reduction characteristic you have, you probably don't want to
apply the same compression to the kick and snare unless they're coming
in on the same channel, or as part of a whole stereo mix of a drum kit.
Besides, where does it say that your drums need any compression
whatsoever? There are no rules here.

That would make it way easier if i didnt use compression on the drums...

I think, given your level of experience at this, that you should track
drums straight without compression, and then experiment with compression
in the digital domain on your previously recorded tracks to learn what
various compression settings do to the sound. You are unlikely to do a
good job setting up an analog compressor until you have a better
understanding of compression. Compression can be fun on drums, but you
might want to try compression on a drum submix instead of on each
individual drum.

Doing this will also drive you get better drum recordings from the
gitgo, working with drum tuning and mic placement.

Unbalanced I/O:
I am not sure how to hook up my NTK to an unbalanced source. I DONT HAVE
A MIXER.

Isn't an NTK a microphoe? You don't hook a microphone to a source
(other than perhaps a source of phantom power). If you're thinking you
can connect your microphone directly to the input of the compressor, no
you can't. It's not a matter of whether it's balanced or unbalanced,
it's a matter of powering the microphone and having enough input
sensitivity to work with a microphone signal.

And if NTK isn't a microphone, please use plain language. We're not all
as hip as you.

You're right: 1. The NTK is a valve microphone with its own power source
(so i wont need phantom), and 2. I *was* thinking i could connect the
microphone directly to the input of the compressor. I am very
unexperienced in using processors etc. Your next paragraph was very
enlightening...

Now the way you can use a microphone and the RNC with a Firepod is like
this:

Yep, the mic wants to see a mic preamp before the signal goes to a
compressor.

Plug the microphone into one of the Mic inputs of the Firepod, say
Channel 1. Turn on the phantom power. Now, patch the analog output of
Channel 1 to the input of one channel of the compressor, and the output
of the compressor to the Line Input of another channel of the Firepod,
say Channel 5. Now, record the Firewire output of Channel 5. That will
be the compressed microphone signal. Don't sweat the balanced or
unbalanced issue. It doesn't matter.

--
ha

C-Man wrote:

Yeah. I understood that the compressor applies identical compression to
both channels; thats why its a problem. Especially if the two sources
required different types of compression (i.e. soft(kick) and quick(snare)).

Not to mention different attack and release times and thresholds, but
even that's not the point.

I wonder if you understand what compression does? You (probably!) don't
want every snare drum hit to result in a sudden drop in level of
anything that's coming out of the kick and vice versa...

The only reason for having linked channels is for compression across the
stereo mix. When you use it that way, you use quite different settings
from what you'd use on drums, and you want them linked because you don't
want the whole stereo image wobbling wildly between left and right.

--
Anahata
-+- http://www.treewind.co.uk
Home: 01638 720444 Mob: 07976 263827

hank alrich wrote:

I think, given your level of experience at this, that you should track
drums straight without compression, and then experiment with compression
in the digital domain on your previously recorded tracks

Doing this will also drive you get better drum recordings from the
gitgo, working with drum tuning and mic placement.

I think we may be seeing the "If I put a compressor ahead of the sound
card I won't have to worry about digital overs" syndrome here. Of
course this is the wrong approach.

By recording without compression, he'll learn soon enough how to set
the record level so that he won't hit the A/D converter too hard, and
then he'll have good drum or vocal tracks with which to experiment.

C-Man wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:

You CANNOT use the two halves independently as two mono compressors. You
have to use it as a stereo compressor. For $200, what do you want? There
is only one control circuit in there for both channels.

Yeah. I understood that the compressor applies identical compression to
both channels; thats why its a problem. Especially if the two sources
required different types of compression (i.e. soft(kick) and quick(snare)).

So, either get more compressors, or don't compress some of the sources.

The compressor wants line level signal. It goes between a preamp and
a recorder. You cannot plug a mike into it without a preamp (or
the preamp section of a console, or some other thing to provide 40 dB
or so of gain). This is the way _all_ compressors are.

I didnt know or understand this. Thanks!

This is part of why people are so gung-ho about mike preamps. Pick up
a used Symetrix SX202 somewhere. It's cheap and actually sounds okay.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

anahata wrote:
C-Man wrote:


Yeah. I understood that the compressor applies identical compression
to both channels; thats why its a problem. Especially if the two
sources required different types of compression (i.e. soft(kick) and
quick(snare)).


Not to mention different attack and release times and thresholds, but
even that's not the point.

I wonder if you understand what compression does? You (probably!) don't
want every snare drum hit to result in a sudden drop in level of
anything that's coming out of the kick and vice versa...


I *think* i know what compression does. I have a vague understanding of
compression and limiting. Basically, when i sing, or play harmonica, or
play acoustic, sometimes the levels are quieter (singing soft, or soft
part of harmonica solo) and sometimes it clips (more forceful voice,
louder strumming/picking). My Rode NTK does an amazing job of getting
good sound, but i need something to stop the clips because it
distorts... Am i getting the idea here? I think so. I would rather ask
stupid questions that act like i know anything.

For drums, i was wanting to use compression to stop random clipping and
to keep the volume "even" among all the mics i am using to record. Does
that make sense? Is a compressor good for this?

The only reason for having linked channels is for compression across the
stereo mix. When you use it that way, you use quite different settings
from what you'd use on drums, and you want them linked because you don't
want the whole stereo image wobbling wildly between left and right.


I dont even know what a stereo mix is. The last Demo i made was a year
ago, and it went like this: Record multitrack into Cubase SX. EQ drum
parts to get the right sound, then adjust the volume to get it to fit
right with the guitars and vocals. Now, i dont know if what i did was
"mixing" or not... After this mixing (adjusting volume on all tracks -
vocals, guitar, drums), then i exported a stereo .wav file and burned it
on a cd. Do you actually apply compression to this stereo .wav file to
get it to match up with the other tracks? Is this stereo .wav file
called a "stereo mix"?

Thanks,
Chris

C-Man wrote:

I *think* i know what compression does. I have a vague understanding of
compression and limiting. Basically, when i sing, or play harmonica, or
play acoustic, sometimes the levels are quieter (singing soft, or soft
part of harmonica solo) and sometimes it clips (more forceful voice,
louder strumming/picking). My Rode NTK does an amazing job of getting
good sound, but i need something to stop the clips because it
distorts... Am i getting the idea here? I think so. I would rather ask
stupid questions that act like i know anything.

If you are clipping, TURN IT DOWN. You don't need compression for that.
You can always adjust the levels later. But if the levels into the preamp
are converter are so high that the preamp or converter is clipping, TURN
IT DOWN.

For drums, i was wanting to use compression to stop random clipping and
to keep the volume "even" among all the mics i am using to record. Does
that make sense? Is a compressor good for this?

No. TURN IT DOWN. Compression is not a substitute for setting your levels
properly.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

there are 2 insert in the back of firepod..you should patch your
compressor in here..
the signalchain would go;
Mic-input1(or 2)-line out1-compressor in-compressor out-line
in1-to software...

Maybe you should read the manual..
It's explained there so that Retard would understand that..

-neural_rust