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#81
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Scott Dorsey wrote On 09/19/05 19:53,: Todd McFadden wrote: I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous: http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838 No, not really. I think they copied the idea from dbx. And, of course, it was ART that came up with the whole cheesy starved plate "fake tube" preamp to begin with. Of course, that was an attempt to get something cheap with a tube in it that didn't infringe on the Aphex 107 fake tube circuit patent. What do you want? People want stuff with tubes in it, they don't want to pay money, and they don't care if it sounds like crap because most of the people the MI vendors are selling to don't know how to listen. As a result, there is a lot of crap on the market. "If fools did not go to market, bad wares would not be sold" -- Ibo Proverb It's depressing, but you can't blame Behringer because they are just copying the whole idea. --scott I contacted ART and asked what the plate voltage was on their "tube" gear. The response was 50 Volts on ALL their gear with tubes. Make of it what you will. --fletch |
#82
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SSJVCmag wrote On 09/20/05 08:34,:
On 9/19/05 7:10 PM, in article , "Todd McFadden" wrote: I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous: http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838 Todd I AM LAOGHING LOUDER AND MORE EXHAUSTINHGLY THAN IN WEEKS!!!!!!!!!!!! WHAT A HOOT!!!! (****... Where's the coffee...) GOOD GOD MAN WHO COULD POSSIBLY BE SURPRISED BY THIS?????? I SWEAR... THE LEAPOARD'S SPOTS!!!!! HEHEHEHEHHAHAHAHAHAHAAAHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOH Wheeeeeoooo... Gasp Whew.. That's funny... Really truly funny... Marvin Caesar and Greg Mackie are smilin' and noddin'... But they're still not happy... **And** ESPECIALLY cuz it makes B-lovers get their panties all in a bunch: I reitterate my oft-told annoying dead-horse who-cares little vow: no Behringer gear will find it's way here unless I make some Fletcher-insipred art out of it.... And I thing it'd have to be somethin ACTIVE, y'know like those folks that build big Free Art Pieces out of Really Dangerous Machinery that usually self-destructs spectacularly... ? Maybe something to do with a rube-goldberg thing ending in an arc-welder and a mix of LOX-&-Napthanol... I think the bottom line of this thing is the ethics of the positioning of LED's behind a tube which if it were operating at proper plate voltage, wouldn't need the LED's, really. If the tube is in there for a marketing reason more than a design circuit reason, the ethical argument arises once again, right? If a company is going to make the claim of "added tube warmth" or words to that effect, it becomes an ethical issue again if it is a spurious claim. I have older Behringer gear, gates and c/l's and they work great. And, yes, their customer service/ repair service is very proactive. We bought the newer MDX4600 quad compressor and have problems with more than one unit, typically on compressor #1 on two units. This speaks to build quality deterioration over the past ten years that has concerned me greatly. So I have become skeptical of their newer products, too, because of our experience with these units, and the trend of companies like Behringer, ART and Aphex to try to sell lower end purchasers on the idea that their tube gear will give them something it is clearly designed to not do, to function in the manner advertised. Another ethical problem, no? Even in hybrid gear of higher quality, the tube is one of the stages, the transistors another stage... but they both OPERATE properly. Okay, okay, who ever said big business had to be ethical? That said, though, if a company wants to survive, they need to be honest about what their stuff does, right? But integrity is something we all claim to adhere to, and want other to adhere to as well. So when a company is not being ethical and operating absent integrity, it is our prerogative to boycott ever buying anything from them again, new stuff that is, which does not meet the criteria we expect in equipment (or whatever they manufacture/market/sell) until they reform their method of operation and clean up their act and regain the "trust" of the consumer, whether in the professional arena or lower levels of the purchasing food chain. --fletch |
#83
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"Geoff@work" wrote:
...snip.. Well you certainly have 'starved plate' designs that give a sort of crass tube effect without the cost of a real PSU (like most-if-not-all cheapo tube pre's really are), but this would appear to be a 'starved filament' design !!! geoff Maybe they're going for a cold cathode sound to balance the tube's warmth. later... Ron Capik -- |
#84
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BTW--there are Hammond fanatics who swear by the sound of the Xk-3.
I've sworn at them before but why would anybody swear BY one? ----------------------------------------------------------- www.RickRyan.com |
#85
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"Richard Crowley" wrote in message ... "Geoff@work" wrote ... Well it aint "warm music", it's "yellow music". Do you have "yellow snow" down there in NZ? :-) Only if you **** in it. Half a meter 'top up' on the skifield in the last 48 hours (all white). geoff |
#86
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"Agent_C" wrote in message ... He surrounds 3 tubes in a mirrored cage, with white LED's behind each one. When you look through the front window, it's just a little more dramatic. I was not at all offended by it; I thought it was kind of cool. Not 'hot' at all ? So much for thermionics... geoff |
#87
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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "Joe Kesselman" wrote in message Arny Krueger wrote: It seems like: Mostly people who didn't live them the first time. Or those of us who were there but were too young to be _there_. Welling being there but too young to really live them is really about the same as not living them. I like Billy Connolly's jacket patch "Too Old To Die Young" . ;-) geoff |
#88
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"Fletch" wrote in message I think the bottom line of this thing is the ethics of the positioning of LED's behind a tube which if it were operating at proper plate voltage, wouldn't need the LED's, really. So it really should be marlketed at a LED preamp. And the tube place BEHIND the LEDs ! geoff |
#89
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John O wrote:
" I was looking at a Behringer guitar amp with my son on Saturday, and that thing had more crap on the front panel, I never saw an amp that required a freakin' manual to use. :-) And it was 180 watts for $250, or something. We didn't buy it. -John O However they do a brilliant small amp....costs peanuts, sounds great. Seriously? Are you talking about a combo? I'll do the research, just point me in a direction. -John O The GM110 I believe is the model number. They do a cheaper version with an 8" speaker but for the money, the GM110 is the one. |
#90
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"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... I don't CARE what it looks like. I care how it sounds. You care about the price, though. And to get the price at a low level, they have to shift a lot of product. And to shift a lot of product means making the product attractive to a lot of buyers. There are a lot of buyers out there who aren't as sensible as you, and who *do* care what it looks like! And so adding that useless stuff you don't want to pay for actually means the price to you is lower. That's marketing. Tim |
#91
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"Richard" wrote :
What is the problem with highlighting a Valve ??? a 12AX7 does not light up very much under normal use .... Don't see the problem either. I'll say I do not think this is such a hot product to begin with.. it works, but that is about all you can say about it.. The LEDS are there to put emphasis on the tube, it is marketing/selling the product whcih as you correctly state uses a tube which does not have much glow. And it is probably cheaper to add the LEDS to 'fake' the glow which is wanted for estetics only then using a tube which glows more.. I really do not see the problem here. But then again we have gotten used to people bashing Behringer for anything they'd happily overlook for anyone else... -- Bill Gates can't guarantee Windows, how are you gonna guarantee my safety.. --John Crichton - Farscape pilot |
#92
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david morley wrote :
The GM110 I believe is the model number. They do a cheaper version with an 8" speaker but for the money, the GM110 is the one. I have one of the 8" models and it's a very nice box.. and funny to see it on stage with a mic covering the whole front ;^) I got it as a joke for a friend who always drags his marshall around.. he actually uses this unit whenever he comes around to jam.. and quite likes it.. -- Bill Gates can't guarantee Windows, how are you gonna guarantee my safety.. --John Crichton - Farscape pilot |
#93
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Todd McFadden wrote:
I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous: http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838 Todd At least the tube is disconnected. -- Les Cargill |
#94
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On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 19:10:22 -0400, "Todd McFadden"
wrote: I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous: http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838 Todd I find it interesting that no one has checked to see if there was any heater or plate voltage on the socket? To even give them the benifit of the doubt. before every one is up in arms. I am not supporting them. God knows what a reputation the company has for ripping off designs. Just think we need more facts before we hang em! |
#95
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On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 07:24:59 -0400, Agent_C
wrote: On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 19:10:22 -0400, "Todd McFadden" wrote: I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous: http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838 This is not at all unprecedented. Take a look at what Bob Carver does with his Classic Vacuum Tube preamp: http://home.nyc.rr.com/acidrock212/tube3.jpg http://home.nyc.rr.com/acidrock212/tube4.jpg He surrounds 3 tubes in a mirrored cage, with white LED's behind each They look like neon lamps to me, but yes, it's the same idea... one. When you look through the front window, it's just a little more dramatic. I was not at all offended by it; I thought it was kind of cool. A_C |
#96
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Richard wrote:
What is the problem with highlighting a Valve ??? a 12AX7 does not light up very much under normal use .... What next ? people claiming that clip/peak indicators are a con because the light is not actually from components catching fire ???? Because it's just more cosmetic silliness. As soon as you start putting the stuff behind glass and lighting it up, it's a sign that there is more of an emphasis on style than substance. Geez you are reading a lot into this - any sensible manufacturer gives some thought to how their product is going to look and tries to make their product look as good/effective as they can (within price constraints of course) Car manufacturers are a classic in this regard. Of course if you feel the manufacturer has spent to much money on appearance you can always buy a cheaper product ...... Oh hang this is Behringer we are talking about there probably is no cheaper alternative ;-) In fact different colours in the paintwork on the front panel cost more does this mean you avoid products which use more than one colour in its paint work - Behringer must look pretty good in this regard. I don't CARE what it looks like. I care how it sounds. I don't want my money being spent on additional junk that adds nothing to improve the sound. --scott David Mellor obviously cares what stuff looks like, in his whole 'Review' he does not mention once what the box sounds like .... OTOH given that he has written a whole article expressing his disgust at what essentially amounts to the look of the device in question I doubt that I could take any of his opinions on Audio seriously he just sounds like a bit of a pratt really. At the end of the day the fact that Behringer have chosen to highlight the Valve with a couple of LEDs does not constitute a "Con" it is merely a styling/appearance decision like the colour/shape of the knobs, Layout etc. |
#97
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How can any reviewer write such a blatant piece of crap like that? He
I guess this is the Internet, opinionated W%^&*!s can write all sorts of crud and get away with it .... I wonder if Behringer would have grounds for legal action ??? although they may decide of course that any negative publicity from this article will only be believed by people who already despise them, whereas taking some pretentious little pratt to court may generate more negative publicity than it is worth. insinuates that the tube might not even be in circuit, then goes on to say his "feeling" is that the circuit is designed and run a certain way. Just where does he get even a shred of evidence to justify these accusations apart from the inside of his own head? good question ... What an arse. Of course! That is where he gets his 'opinions' .... ;-) I think I might start work on a Mic preamp with a small Smoke machine built into it instead of clip indicators ;-) |
#98
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On 20 Sep 2005 19:09:33 -0700, "Richard" wrote:
At the end of the day the fact that Behringer have chosen to highlight the Valve with a couple of LEDs does not constitute a "Con" it is merely a styling/appearance decision like the colour/shape of the knobs, Layout etc. But they also simulate the heat-up time. C'mon. It's a con. It's like ordering a maple neck and getting plastic with maple grain painted on. Kurt Riemann |
#99
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Where is the Con ?? the device uses a genuine 12AX7 !!!!
lets see now : the unit claims to have a Valve in it .... well look at that it does - no con there as for simulating the heat up time that sounds like a useful idea to me especially in this modern day and age when people are used to plugging something in, turning it on and it is ready to use. Really it is more like ordering a maple neck and getting ..... a maple neck ! |
#101
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Richard wrote:
Where is the Con ?? the device uses a genuine 12AX7 !!!! lets see now : the unit claims to have a Valve in it .... well look at that it does - no con there A real tube preamp has an input transformer, and then various tube gain stages which run with a couple hundred volts on the plate and are biased to be as linear as possible. The output stage may either be a transformer or a cathode follower. The tube stages themselves are pretty neutral and most of the actual coloration comes from the input transformer, and some from the output transformer. This device does not have a transformer. Therefore, the coloration it produces will be in no way related to that of a regular tube preamp. It has a solid state input stage, a tube stage that is operated in a regime so far out of the norm that the RCA tube handbook doesn't even LIST curves at 50V, with the intention of using it as a deliberate distortion device. Then it has more solid-state output stages. Most of the coloration comes from the tube effect stage, but it's also producing a good bit of coloration from that solid-state stuff. The overall sound and the measured distortion spectra between these two devices basically shows only minimal resemblance between them. They are both preamps and they both have a tube in them. as for simulating the heat up time that sounds like a useful idea to me especially in this modern day and age when people are used to plugging something in, turning it on and it is ready to use. Have you ever actually USED one of these fake tube things? I got one of the ART units on review when they first came out and I was absolutely horrified. It was pretty clear that the folks who designed it didn't have any idea what a conventional tube preamp sounded like or did. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#103
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#104
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I have serviced many a Valve amp and had to look closely at the ends of
a 12AX7 to see if the filament was glowing ...... |
#105
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"Chevdo" What is the problem with highlighting a Valve ??? a 12AX7 does not light up very much under normal use .... I have an old Bell receiver from the 60s with 12AX7's and they glow quite brightly without any LED augmentation. ** 12AX7 tubes do not glow !! At most there is a pair of tiny, red spots of light visible from the some angles. I am looking at a row of eight new 12AX7s ( all Russian made) right now in VOX amp. I normal room light is hard to say if any of them are actually lit. .......... Phil |
#106
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"Chevdo" I really do not see the problem here. But then again we have gotten used to people bashing Behringer for anything they'd happily overlook for anyone else... I love my Behringer mixer, but this is a con. ** You are an idiot. We still don't know whether the tube is or isn't in the circuit, either. ** You do not know and that it your problem - not evidence. .......... Phil |
#107
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#108
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#109
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"Chevdo" Phil Allison What is the problem with highlighting a Valve ??? a 12AX7 does not light up very much under normal use .... I have an old Bell receiver from the 60s with 12AX7's and they glow quite brightly without any LED augmentation. ** 12AX7 tubes do not glow !! At most there is a pair of tiny, red spots of light visible from the some angles. I am looking at a row of eight new 12AX7s ( all Russian made) right now in VOX amp. I normal room light is hard to say if any of them are actually lit. oops sorry the tubes in the back of my Bell are 6V6GT and they glow quite a bit. ** Most 6V6 tubes are coated black and show no sign of glowing whatever. There may be a red spot visible with other examples. I think there are a few 12AX7s somewhere in there but I'll take your word for it that they don't glow. I suppose they should've just used 6V6GTs then they wouldn't have needed the LEDs ** See above. ............. Phil |
#110
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On 9/20/05 1:36 PM, in article , "Scott Dorsey"
wrote: SSJVCmag wrote: On 9/19/05 10:53 PM, in article , "Scott Dorsey" wrote: Todd McFadden wrote: I am generally a Behringer fan, but this is outrageous: http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838 No, not really. I think they copied the idea from dbx. And, of course, it was ART that came up with the whole cheesy starved plate "fake tube" preamp to begin with. Of course, that was an attempt to get something cheap with a tube in it that didn't infringe on the Aphex 107 fake tube circuit patent. And to be fair, the 107 is a DARNED quiet cheap pre with very-lo-impedance mics... And the tube does little damage. I disagree. The 107 sounds a lot better with the tube stage removed, and it's only about 10dB down after removing it, too. The whole reflected plate silliness was a terrible idea. Admittedly the rest of the preamp isn't so bad, but honestly it's nothing too impressive. --scott It's just that first gain stage that makes it worth having. |
#111
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"Chevdo" Phil Allison I really do not see the problem here. But then again we have gotten used to people bashing Behringer for anything they'd happily overlook for anyone else... I love my Behringer mixer, but this is a con. ** You are an idiot. We still don't know whether the tube is or isn't in the circuit, either. ** You do not know and that it your problem - not evidence. I know there is a con, ** You are barely rate ****ing idiot. Go figure out the difference between "gimmick" and a "con". A good dictionary might be a place to start. ......... Phil |
#112
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On 9/20/05 1:59 PM, in article
, "George Gleason" wrote: SSJVCmag wrote in : On 9/20/05 12:40 PM, in article , "George Gleason" wrote: (hmmmnn.. T-shirt.. Blame Behringer... The back can have a silk-screen of the Mackie filing papers...) or a picture of the same papers thrown in the dust bin by the judge, who correctly identified them as pointless driva George Drivel that suddenly and absolutely divested BEHRINGER of their entire US sales distro and warrenty repair partner SAMASH leaving them in a scramble for a year to rebuild one from the ground up... But then I forget, that was a 'planned business move'. We've been over this wayyy too many times... Yes we have, yet you continue to not get it correct. George... George... These things HAPPENED. Simple You can discuss the why's and wonder about what happened in the judge's chamber and interpret the mandatory public statements about how "all sides are satisfied with the outcome"... Till doomsday.. I'm not GOING there, I wasn;t there any more than you... but it doesn;t change what HAPPENED. it seems behringers business plan is working quite well Absolutely... they are leading the industry in customer support Well I'm sure they'r etaking care of business, 'leading the industry' is quite a claim... But I don;t know different, I've never had to call them. and reaching markets that before have been unable to buy a compressor or small mixer WalMart is doing this too... mackie is even copying behringer business plan even going them one better by directly copying the qsc rmx(I believe, you'd have to ask Graham, as I could be wrong on which amp they copied) with their Tapco amp THATıS funny! |
#113
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A real tube preamp has an input transformer, and then various tube gain
stages which run with a couple hundred volts on the plate and are biased to be as linear as possible. The output stage may either be a transformer or a cathode follower. The tube stages themselves are pretty neutral and most of the actual coloration comes from the input transformer, and some from the output transformer. So now you are moving the goal posts just because I do not agree that highlighting a valve with a LED is a con you are making claims for the unit that Behringer do not make and then shooting your claims down .... Lets see what Behringer claim on their website: " The MIC2200 is the ideal extension to your console, MIDI setup or hard disk recording system. Its integrated parametric EQ's give you extra sound-shaping power, while its built-in tube adds warmth and transparency to your signal. In addition, the ULTRAGAIN PRO features direct injection and level conversion functionality." They do not claim that the 'Ultragain Pro' is a full Valve Pre-amp merely that It has a 'built in tube' |
#114
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SSJVCmag wrote in
: On 9/20/05 1:59 PM, in article , "George Gleason" wrote: SSJVCmag wrote in : On 9/20/05 12:40 PM, in article , "George Gleason" wrote: (hmmmnn.. T-shirt.. Blame Behringer... The back can have a silk-screen of the Mackie filing papers...) or a picture of the same papers thrown in the dust bin by the judge, who correctly identified them as pointless driva George Drivel that suddenly and absolutely divested BEHRINGER of their entire US sales distro and warrenty repair partner SAMASH leaving them in a scramble for a year to rebuild one from the ground up... But then I forget, that was a 'planned business move'. We've been over this wayyy too many times... Yes we have, yet you continue to not get it correct. George... George... These things HAPPENED. Simple You can discuss the why's and wonder about what happened in the judge's chamber and interpret the mandatory public statements about how "all sides are satisfied with the outcome"... Till doomsday.. I'm not GOING there, I wasn;t there any more than you... but it doesn;t change what HAPPENED. What HAPPENED is mackie was thrown out of court for bringing a baseless suit THAT IS what happened it seems behringers business plan is working quite well Absolutely... they are leading the industry in customer support Well I'm sure they'r etaking care of business, 'leading the industry' is quite a claim... But I don;t know different, I've never had to call them. You don't have to people are reporting it right here. and reaching markets that before have been unable to buy a compressor or small mixer WalMart is doing this too... More power to them, I love Wal-Mart I buy my CD players there mackie is even copying behringer business plan even going them one better by directly copying the qsc rmx(I believe, you'd have to ask Graham, as I could be wrong on which amp they copied) with their Tapco amp THATıS funny! Graham had some hand in the design, and I trust his word that the Tapco is a direct copy of someone elses amp, like I said it might or might not be the rmx I simply don't remember George |
#115
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On 20 Sep 2005 20:51:33 -0700, "Richard" wrote:
while its built-in tube adds warmth and transparency to your signal. These are simply *not* add-able things. 'S the problem. Would be nice if it were, but it ain't. Chris Hornbeck |
#116
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Richard wrote: Lets see what Behringer claim on their website: " The MIC2200 is the ideal extension to your console, MIDI setup or hard disk recording system. Its integrated parametric EQ's give you extra sound-shaping power, while its built-in tube adds warmth and transparency to your signal. In addition, the ULTRAGAIN PRO features direct injection and level conversion functionality." How can ANY circuit "add transparency" ? rd |
#117
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How can ANY circuit "add transparency" ?
Yep alright you have got me there ! This must be the famed Behringer 'Con' and to think we all got Sidetracked by the LEDs behind the Valve ;-) |
#118
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"RD Jones" " The MIC2200 is the ideal extension to your console, MIDI setup or hard disk recording system. Its integrated parametric EQ's give you extra sound-shaping power, while its built-in tube adds warmth and transparency to your signal. In addition, the ULTRAGAIN PRO features direct injection and level conversion functionality." How can ANY circuit "add transparency" ? ** The glass bulb of a 12AX7 is both warm & transparent. The effect is psychological, that is why the tube must be seen to be heard. .......... Phil |
#119
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Phil Allison wrote:
** 12AX7 tubes do not glow !! What I miss most about tube gear is the smell of dusty tubes cooking. |
#120
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Chevdo wrote:
In article , says... I really do not see the problem here. But then again we have gotten used to people bashing Behringer for anything they'd happily overlook for anyone else... I love my Behringer mixer, but this is a con. We still don't know whether the tube is or isn't in the circuit, either. I've got a MIC100 I've been using as a guitar DI for a while - must take it apart.... -- re-configure the solar matrix in parallel for endothermic propulsion |
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