3dB doubles the power, dumb****. It takes about a 10dB gain to make an
audible difference in power.
Yes you will see a difference on the o-scope and, yes, you really will
be able to measure a increase in rail voltage. So?
Are you such a loser you don't even know how to kill yourself properly?
And about the troll thing, I've been posting here since 2000. Go play
with your dollies.

Sir, you really aren't the poster child for the English language. And
your people think we assault the language....... Nothing personal, just
please use a spell check.

wrote in message
ups.com...
3dB doubles the power, dumb****. It takes about a 10dB gain to make an
audible difference in power.
Yes you will see a difference on the o-scope and, yes, you really will
be able to measure a increase in rail voltage. So?
Are you such a loser you don't even know how to kill yourself properly?
And about the troll thing, I've been posting here since 2000. Go play
with your dollies.


It has been readily documented that people can easily hear a 3 dB increase.
BUT note that I said HEAR wonder how that translates to tactile sensation?

Chad

Just to put in my two cents:

Power = Work / Time

Work = F * d * cos( @ )

Fc = m * v * v / r

Thus E = m * c * c

And no, I don't know if black holes are real. But I'm workin' on it!

"MOSFET" wrote in message
Yes, and I suppose Dr. Jacobs designed the Accuvolt just for the hell of
it.

Does he make money from it?

Um...why would an amp run cooler if it's delivering more power? Are you
suggesting that there's a drastic change in efficiency? Where is that
coming from? The vast majority of amplifiers aren't fully regulated.

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, MOSFET wrote:


"Chad Wahls" wrote in message
...

"MOSFET" wrote in message
news

"MZ" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, Waldodamon wrote:


This is great. 2.5V won't make a difference, gotta love it. Mosfet is
correct and I have done the procedures to prove it. My MA Audio


How can I argue with that? Your MA Audio has single-handedly rewritten
the laws of physics. Way to go.

Yes, and I suppose Dr. Jacobs designed the Accuvolt just for the hell of
it.
I mean, HE of all people would know that nobody could possibly hear the
difference, right Mark.

MOSFET



You gotta double your power to gain 3dB. You ain't gonna come close to
doubling your power with an accuvolt. You MAY gain 1 DB, but I doubt it
after amplifier SOA saturation and power compression. Is it worth the
added
stress to the amp?

It's not the input voltage that counts it's the rail voltage at the
finals.
Anybody done the math? Got out the meter and actually taken measurements?

Chad

Well, I have some experience with this. I was having alternator problems
and I measured my voltage and I was getting only 11.5-12 volts. I got a new
(more powerful) alternator that ran at 14.4 volts and I REALLY noticed a
difference. Also, my amp ran much cooler. And no, I'm not making this
story up to win an argument. I really do make a point of never chiming in
unless I have some experience with a topic. But no, I am not an engineer.

Look, I'm not saying this will be noticeable in all amps. But with loosely
regulated amps, you will get more wattage. That's all I'm saying. I have
15 years of tests reports in stereo magazines to back me up here! Are they
lying?

Yes, it takes about a 3 dB difference to be perceptible, I agree. But if
you are looking for every dB you can, then THIS IS IMPORTANT! That's all
I'm saying.

Of course, that MORON mmdir2002 is misunderstanding what Mark is saying
(what's new), and construing it to mean voltage makes no difference.

MOSFET

Look, I tend not to like refering to magazines to prove my knowledge. It's
kind of cheesy. But this to me seems to be a widely known fact, something
I've known for 20 years. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you are arguing
as I don't think there is any debate on this subject (unregulated amps
produce more wattage with more voltage).

Maximum output is not the same thing as gain.

This is great. 2.5V won't make a difference, gotta love it. Mosfet is
correct and I have done the procedures to prove it. My MA Audio


How can I argue with that? Your MA Audio has single-handedly rewritten
the laws of physics. Way to go.

Mark, instead of just saying something sarcastic to this guy who obviously
has some knowledge and good test equipment (those Ohio generators don't come
cheap), perhaps we could hear WHY he has rewritten the laws of physics.
Frankly, if you're not going to explain yourself, this hit-and-run kind of
posting basically amounts to a cheap shot and I would expect more from you.

Chad summed it up already.

Simple ohms law can clear it up
P=I*E (watts = Volts * Amps) if you increase the voltage or amps the
watts
will increase also. This will only be true for nonregulated amps.
regulated amps will keep the voltage the same regardless of input voltage
(to a point). Weather you can hear a difference is a different story.
but I believe you can tell a difference.
I agree with Chad that running at higher voltage puts more stress on the
transistors. Low voltage is just as dangerous if not more so, as it can
cause the Amplifer to draw more Current to produce the desired output. Low
Voltage is usually what causes amps to overheat.

Yes, perfect. Well said.

The gain of an amp is dependent mostly on the current source driving the
VA stage, and the gain of the VA stage itself. Neither of these things
are directly influenced by supply voltage.

3dB doubles the power, dumb****. It takes about a 10dB gain to make an
audible difference in power.

Sorry, but this is highly dependent on the frequency. It can actually be
as little as about 3 dB for some frequencies.

Yes you will see a difference on the o-scope and, yes, you really will
be able to measure a increase in rail voltage. So?
Are you such a loser you don't even know how to kill yourself properly?
And about the troll thing, I've been posting here since 2000. Go play
with your dollies.

No one knows who you are. 3 posts a year don't count.

now now brown cow. the admin doesn't like swearing, which you as a
child have GOT to learn no to do.


What admin? This is an unmoderated USENET newsgroup.

I haven't been here in awhile. I was TO-3 in another life.

Uhh, quit posting, here, through CAF. No one is going to be kicked off,
banned, hanged, drawn, and quartered, etc.......

wrote in message
oups.com...

MOSFET wrote:
"MZ" wrote in message
...
n other words, the voltage dip tends to be so brief that it just
ends up meshing with the dynamics of the music anyway. Nothing to
worry
about.

Perhaps. But I think I hear a difference. Now Mark, don't go telling
me that
and making me wonder if I have wasted my time!

MOSFET

MOSFET, you do not know nothing about electronic stuff.
There is no difference of output sound if amp is supply by 1.44DC Volts
or 12.5DC Volts. Amp input voltage is DC (direct current) and the
output audio
is AC (alternative current), therefore output AC current will not
changed
by the small different of input DC voltage. Of course, big different
of
input DC voltage will either destory Amp or does not work at all.
You are just another ignorant guy on electronic knowledge.


If DC voltage does not matter, why do the better amps take the DC voltage
and change it to AC (alternating), then go through a transformer to step up
the voltage, then change it back to DC voltage again, I believe about 64
volts DC (-32 volts and +32 volts), it may be different depending on amp
(Chad may know that better than me)

"MZ" wrote in message
...
Um...why would an amp run cooler if it's delivering more power? Are you


Mark, I swear to God sometimes I think you just try to be difficult. I
mean, isn't it obvious. If I always listen to my music at a certain volume
(wattage) level, let's say an average of 100 watts to the sub and I am
getting 12 volts my amps will draw more current and be hotter than when I am
getting 14.4 volts and listening to my 100 watts. Ohms law, right?

I would think this would be really obvious. But maybe it's just me?

MOSFET

"MOSFET" wrote in message
...

"MZ" wrote in message
...
Um...why would an amp run cooler if it's delivering more power? Are you


Mark, I swear to God sometimes I think you just try to be difficult. I
mean, isn't it obvious. If I always listen to my music at a certain
volume
(wattage) level, let's say an average of 100 watts to the sub and I am
getting 12 volts my amps will draw more current and be hotter than when I
am
getting 14.4 volts and listening to my 100 watts. Ohms law, right?

I would think this would be really obvious. But maybe it's just me?

MOSFET



The amp will run cooler at 14.4 volts at 100 watts, because it will be using
less current. and current is what produces heat

--
The Clown Prince of Car Stereo

"Flashovr29" wrote in message
om...
I understand that most specs revolve around 14.4 volts and as a result
wattages are lower for 12.5 volts.

What is applicable to us? A regular car battery is 12.5 correct?



Did we answer your question Flashovr29 ?


--
The Clown Prince of Car Stereo

"joe.ker" wrote in message
news:xA2_d.9254$Z07.5150@trnddc02...





"MOSFET" wrote in message
...

"MZ" wrote in message
...
Um...why would an amp run cooler if it's delivering more power? Are
you


Mark, I swear to God sometimes I think you just try to be difficult. I
mean, isn't it obvious. If I always listen to my music at a certain
volume
(wattage) level, let's say an average of 100 watts to the sub and I am
getting 12 volts my amps will draw more current and be hotter than when
I
am
getting 14.4 volts and listening to my 100 watts. Ohms law, right?

I would think this would be really obvious. But maybe it's just me?

MOSFET



The amp will run cooler at 14.4 volts at 100 watts, because it will be
using
less current. and current is what produces heat

--
The Clown Prince of Car Stereo



Yes, thank you.

"joe.ker" wrote in message
news:NB2_d.9255$Z07.749@trnddc02...





"Flashovr29" wrote in message
om...
I understand that most specs revolve around 14.4 volts and as a result
wattages are lower for 12.5 volts.

What is applicable to us? A regular car battery is 12.5 correct?



Did we answer your question Flashovr29 ?


--
The Clown Prince of Car Stereo

Well, who the hell knows? We have everybody fighting.

And then this guy, Tubehead1, comes out of the blue and apparently hates my
guts and wants me to die for GOD KNOWS WHY?

Now, mmdir2002, you may flame me and tell me to die. I have been so rude to
you that you have earned the right to flame me.

I think we all need to take a deep breath here and just chill. And
mmdir2002, if you truly are trying to help people then I am sorry for some
of things I have said to you.

MOSFET

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:44:35 GMT, MZ wrote:


now now brown cow. the admin doesn't like swearing, which you as a
child have GOT to learn no to do.


What admin? This is an unmoderated USENET newsgroup.


A lot of people post here via CarAudioForum.com. It's a web-based
bulletin-board that serves as a front-end for rec.audio.car. That's
probably what he's talking about with "admin" and "kicked off".




--
Scott Gardner

"It's not necessary to lose your soul in this business, but a certain amount of damage will be done to it"

joe.ker wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

MOSFET wrote:
"MZ" wrote in message
...
n other words, the voltage dip tends to be so brief that it just
ends up meshing with the dynamics of the music anyway. Nothing
to
worry
about.

Perhaps. But I think I hear a difference. Now Mark, don't go
telling
me that
and making me wonder if I have wasted my time!

MOSFET

MOSFET, you do not know nothing about electronic stuff.
There is no difference of output sound if amp is supply by 1.44DC
Volts
or 12.5DC Volts. Amp input voltage is DC (direct current) and the
output audio
is AC (alternative current), therefore output AC current will not
changed
by the small different of input DC voltage. Of course, big
different
of
input DC voltage will either destory Amp or does not work at all.
You are just another ignorant guy on electronic knowledge.


If DC voltage does not matter, why do the better amps take the DC
voltage
and change it to AC (alternating), then go through a transformer to
step up
the voltage, then change it back to DC voltage again, I believe about
64
volts DC (-32 volts and +32 volts), it may be different depending on
amp
(Chad may know that better than me)

Firstly because it's easier to design push-pull amplifiers from a
bi-polar supply, an amp designed around a single ended supply 12V must
"float" it's "zero" at 6V then cap couple the output to get rid of DC.
Kida like an OTL tube amp, not too popular Or they must use an
output transformer.

Also if looking at Ohm's law one would realize that it is difficult to
derive lots of power from 12V unless insanely low speaker impedances
are utilized. It Can be done but it is easier to use a higher voltage
bipolar supply and common output devices designed to run at more sane
current levels. RF transistors usually run at 12V in mobile ham amps,
they can get tremendous power out of them, but the devices are
inefficient and not good for audio. They also use a low to high
impedance transformer after the finals, this would push the cost of an
automotive amp up considerably due to the copper needed for the
transformers, Keep in mind RF in in mHz and transformers are small with
just a few windings. Much smaller than those torrids in power supplies
that run in the hundreds of kHz. I hope this comes out right, I'm
using google groups right now and hate it!

Chad

I haven't been here in awhile. I was TO-3 in another life.

You weren't nearly as ****y then. You sure you're not Lizard?

Um...why would an amp run cooler if it's delivering more power? Are you


Mark, I swear to God sometimes I think you just try to be difficult. I
mean, isn't it obvious. If I always listen to my music at a certain
volume
(wattage) level, let's say an average of 100 watts to the sub and I am
getting 12 volts my amps will draw more current and be hotter than when I
am
getting 14.4 volts and listening to my 100 watts. Ohms law, right?

I would think this would be really obvious. But maybe it's just me?

Obviously wrong, perhaps.

I don't think you're looking at the big picture here. Heat is proportional
to power, not current. So 100 watts will dissipate the same amount of heat
as 100 watts, regardless of what the supply voltage is. That's where your
confusion comes from.

Of course, there's a caveat: I'm making the assumption that the efficiency
of the amp does not vary based on supply voltage. It turns out, for most
unregulated or "loosely" regulated amps (which, last time I checked, tends
to include most amplifiers), that this is a reasonably safe assumption.

The amp will run cooler at 14.4 volts at 100 watts, because it will be
using
less current. and current is what produces heat

Come on, Joe. Pick up a thermodynamics text sometime. Or even an intro to
physics text. Get the thermo text written by the guy with the dead cat on
the cover. Schrodinger, illustrated.

Anyway, if heat was produced directly by current, then superconductors would
heat up the fastest, probably rendering them incapable of being
superconductors.

Just to put in my two cents:

Power = Work / Time

Work = F * d * cos( @ )

Fc = m * v * v / r

Thus E = m * c * c

And no, I don't know if black holes are real. But I'm workin' on it!


Hey, Bob, you're on the right track, man. Heat :: Energy. Power = time
rate of energy. Current = charged particles (electrons, ions, etc) flowing
per second (Coul/sec).

Anyway, if we're interested in temperature, which I think we are (how did we
get on this topic again?), then we're interested in the amount of heat
produced and the ability of the object to dissipate the heat. Current can,
of course, produce heat, but it's only through electrical power
dissipation - i * r.

Firstly because it's easier to design push-pull amplifiers from a
bi-polar supply, an amp designed around a single ended supply 12V must
"float" it's "zero" at 6V then cap couple the output to get rid of DC.
Kida like an OTL tube amp, not too popular Or they must use an
output transformer.

Also if looking at Ohm's law one would realize that it is difficult to
derive lots of power from 12V unless insanely low speaker impedances
are utilized. It Can be done but it is easier to use a higher voltage
bipolar supply and common output devices designed to run at more sane
current levels. RF transistors usually run at 12V in mobile ham amps,
they can get tremendous power out of them, but the devices are
inefficient and not good for audio. They also use a low to high
impedance transformer after the finals, this would push the cost of an
automotive amp up considerably due to the copper needed for the
transformers, Keep in mind RF in in mHz and transformers are small with
just a few windings. Much smaller than those torrids in power supplies
that run in the hundreds of kHz. I hope this comes out right, I'm
using google groups right now and hate it!

Google groups is gaining popularity, but it still sucks royally. I heart
OE! I know, I know. It's one of only two pieces of Microsoft software that
I like. I use pine though when I'm telnet-ing to my server.

So get a usenet service. I highly recommend giganews. Reliability is top
notch.

well, I sure did my share of tuning the place up as well. though some
people here acted in ways that I cannot understand, especially for
grown adults, I am assuming everyone here is to be considered an adult,
I too will apologize on behalf of stepping on toes by merely stating my
experience with this particular subject. I am hoping the person who
originally inquired about this has gotten something out of it more than
seeing how battles erupt. there really was equal resistance (no pun
intended) of opinion (for lack of better words considering no one with
"proof" from either side wanted to hear about the "proof" from either
side, therefore a "fact" was never proven and the whole conversation
has squabbled itself down to opinion bashing). so, I guess from this
point all the original questionee can do is experiment for his/her own
self and find out what their "proof", or "opinion", is. good luck!

Ah, now you're getting all philosophical. Is there such a thing as
"facts"? Eh, we accept things to be facts until we can come up with enough
evidence to say that something else is a fact.

wrote in message
oups.com...

You are making up from your ignorant take-no-prisoner dumb brain.

Thats a new one... Hey. At least his spelling is getting better.

"MZ" wrote in message
...

"proof", or "opinion",
Ah, now you're getting all philosophical. Is there such a thing as
"facts"? Eh, we accept things to be facts until we can come up with
enough evidence to say that something else is a fact.
Fact. My amps are rated differently at 12/14v. But personally (ie(Opinion)),
I can't tell the difference.But then again I don't really use the stereo at
any real volume longer than five minutes or so unless the car is running .

MZ wrote:
I haven't been here in awhile. I was TO-3 in another life.

You weren't nearly as ****y then. You sure you're not Lizard?

ROFLMFAO ... shots at the Liz ... it's been too long :-)

--
Dan Snooks

"MZ" wrote in message
...
Firstly because it's easier to design push-pull amplifiers from a
bi-polar supply, an amp designed around a single ended supply 12V must
"float" it's "zero" at 6V then cap couple the output to get rid of DC.
Kida like an OTL tube amp, not too popular Or they must use an
output transformer.

Also if looking at Ohm's law one would realize that it is difficult to
derive lots of power from 12V unless insanely low speaker impedances
are utilized. It Can be done but it is easier to use a higher voltage
bipolar supply and common output devices designed to run at more sane
current levels. RF transistors usually run at 12V in mobile ham amps,
they can get tremendous power out of them, but the devices are
inefficient and not good for audio. They also use a low to high
impedance transformer after the finals, this would push the cost of an
automotive amp up considerably due to the copper needed for the
transformers, Keep in mind RF in in mHz and transformers are small with
just a few windings. Much smaller than those torrids in power supplies
that run in the hundreds of kHz. I hope this comes out right, I'm
using google groups right now and hate it!

Google groups is gaining popularity, but it still sucks royally. I heart
OE! I know, I know. It's one of only two pieces of Microsoft software
that I like. I use pine though when I'm telnet-ing to my server.

So get a usenet service. I highly recommend giganews. Reliability is top
notch.


PINE!!! Woo Hoo! Been a long time since I've used that!

I use the university news server from where I work, we actually did away
with our discreet one but share with another university. When I'm at home I
use google because I have been too laxt to set up the server on the home PC.
I will check out giganews as this one does not support binary groups and
many I know post schematics that I want to check out....

Thanks for the heads up!

Chad

Wasn't it Schrodinger who said something like if a cat was in a box with
poison it is neither alive or dead till it is observed.
are not superconductors supercooled?

--
The Clown Prince of Car Stereo


"MZ" wrote in message
...
The amp will run cooler at 14.4 volts at 100 watts, because it will be
using
less current. and current is what produces heat

Come on, Joe. Pick up a thermodynamics text sometime. Or even an intro
to
physics text. Get the thermo text written by the guy with the dead cat on
the cover. , illustrated.

Anyway, if heat was produced directly by current, then superconductors
would
heat up the fastest, probably rendering them incapable of being
superconductors.

"MZ" wrote in message
...
Um...why would an amp run cooler if it's delivering more power? Are
you


Mark, I swear to God sometimes I think you just try to be difficult. I
mean, isn't it obvious. If I always listen to my music at a certain
volume
(wattage) level, let's say an average of 100 watts to the sub and I am
getting 12 volts my amps will draw more current and be hotter than when
I
am
getting 14.4 volts and listening to my 100 watts. Ohms law, right?

I would think this would be really obvious. But maybe it's just me?

Obviously wrong, perhaps.

I don't think you're looking at the big picture here. Heat is
proportional
to power, not current. So 100 watts will dissipate the same amount of
heat
as 100 watts, regardless of what the supply voltage is. That's where your
confusion comes from.

Of course, there's a caveat: I'm making the assumption that the
efficiency
of the amp does not vary based on supply voltage. It turns out, for most
unregulated or "loosely" regulated amps (which, last time I checked,
tends
to include most amplifiers), that this is a reasonably safe assumption.

Well, OK. I mean obviously you know more than I do about the physics of it
all (I mean, I'm an MBA for God's sake!).

And I can see the logic in 100 watts is 100 watts is 100 watts, that the
same heat would be generated no matter what.
But I know what I know and that my amp heated up so much (when it was only
getting 11-12 volts) that the thermal protection circuit engaged several
times and shut the thing down. With the new alternator producing 14.4
volts, this did not happen. So SOMETHING was going on.

MOSFET

You weren't nearly as ****y then. You sure you're not Lizard?

HAHAHAHA, nope. I still drop by from time to time, but usually don't
post because there are many bright people here, now. It's like first
come, first serve you know. No sense in being the 5th person to answer
a question with the same answer. I just turned 30 last week, so now I
am officially a "Grumpy Old Man"!!!

(I mean, I'm an MBA for God's sake!).

AHHHH, so that's your problem. I'm sorry for everything negative that I
said to you before. I mean, it's obvious, you can't help
it................

Wasn't it Schrodinger who said something like if a cat was in a box with
poison it is neither alive or dead till it is observed.
are not superconductors supercooled?

Of course. But it would be extremely difficult to supercool them if heat
was being generated by the current alone, without factoring in the
resistance (ie. power = i*r). It's hard enough as it is to, say, run the
magnet in an MRI facility. It would take a whole building just to cool it
if the laws of physics didn't dictate that heat is a product of power.

Well, OK. I mean obviously you know more than I do about the physics of
it
all (I mean, I'm an MBA for God's sake!).

And I can see the logic in 100 watts is 100 watts is 100 watts, that the
same heat would be generated no matter what.
But I know what I know and that my amp heated up so much (when it was only
getting 11-12 volts) that the thermal protection circuit engaged several
times and shut the thing down. With the new alternator producing 14.4
volts, this did not happen. So SOMETHING was going on.

11 volts might explain it. When you're close to the limits of operation,
things can be funky.

But it would be extremely difficult to supercool them if heat
was being generated by the current alone, without factoring in the
resistance (ie. power = i*r).

M,

Shouldn't that be P= I^2*R?

But it would be extremely difficult to supercool them if heat
was being generated by the current alone, without factoring in the
resistance (ie. power = i*r).

M,

Shouldn't that be P= I^2*R?

Yep. Thanks.