right now i am running an alpine cda 7878 in my car. it has 2 1 bit da
converters. the nakamichi, denon and the sony have 24 bit da
converters. da converters can make a large difference in sound
quality. the next step up would, imo, be an sacd based head unit. has
anyone heard of/seen a car head unit with sacd capability? jps


--
jpswanberg
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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AFAIK, no one makes even a stereo SACD mobile unit let alone a 5.1 piece,
though if anyone would it'll probably be Sony first. Panasonic had a
multi-channel DVD-A unit at CES '04, mounted in an Acura TL. The unit is
earmarked to be marketed as OEM only, but IF it takes off, the aftermarket
shouldn't be too far behind (it's a big if, though; home DVD-A and SACD have
been pretty slow sellers, and there you have the proper means of calibrating
the multi-channel setup. In a car it's a lot tougher environment, mostly
due to space limitations for the equipment itself and inflexibilities and
variations with speaker placement from car to car).

The multi-channel audio market is pretty weak; stereo is still too
compelling a format to throw away. Some of the mastering of multi-channel
discs is downright WEIRD-sounding, and often makes no sense other than for
some studio guy to say he made it sound "cool". And right now you can't
copy the original discs and stay true to the multi-channel format, so even
if there were a player on the market, you're stuck using (and abusing) the
original content discs. I'd guess it's going to be a while, if ever, before
an aftermarket mobile SACD or DVD-A HU shows up.

"jpswanberg" wrote in message
...

right now i am running an alpine cda 7878 in my car. it has 2 1 bit da
converters. the nakamichi, denon and the sony have 24 bit da
converters. da converters can make a large difference in sound
quality. the next step up would, imo, be an sacd based head unit. has
anyone heard of/seen a car head unit with sacd capability? jps


--
jpswanberg
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted via RealCarAudio.com - The checkmate of the caraudio community.
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jpswanberg's Profile:
http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/m...fo&userid=2908
View this thread:
http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/s...threadid=48851

AFAIK, no one makes even a stereo SACD mobile unit let alone a 5.1 piece,
though if anyone would it'll probably be Sony first.

Several companies, with Pioneer at the forefront, have already been producing
in-dash screens with avaliable decoder boxes allowing them to decode Dolby
Digital and even DTS soundtracks in full 5.1 from DVD-Video discs. Seeing as
5.1 channel DTS CDs require only a DTS compatible DVD player and a decoder,
they are inherently already compatible with these screen/decoder combinations.
It's only a matter of time before DVD-Audio and SACD compatibility become
commonplace among high-end units. I'll agree that Sony will probably be the
first to jump in, but that has largely to do with the fact that they own the
rights to the SACD technology, anyone else who wants to use it needs to license
it first.

Panasonic had a
multi-channel DVD-A unit at CES '04, mounted in an Acura TL. The unit is
earmarked to be marketed as OEM only, but IF it takes off

DVD-Audio is already standard, OEM equipment in the Acura TL, and has been
since the newest version debuted in 2002. It's an amazing sound system
comprised of an 8-speaker array which also comes STANDARD with a DTS CD
compatible changer complete with decoder. So you'll get DTS-CD compatibility
out of the box:
http://www.acura.com/models/model_co...asp?module=tl#

home DVD-A and SACD have
been pretty slow sellers

They're having the same problem now they had in the 60s and 70s with
Quadrophonic LPs. There were two different versions of Quad LP, and neither
system was backward compaitble with the other. Now they've got 5.1-capable CD
mediums like SACD, DVD-Audio and DTS-CD and "faux 5.1" formats like HDCD all
competeing. None of them is backward compatible with the other, and real
high-quality players capable of playing back multiple formats start at around
$2,000.

In a car it's a lot tougher environment, mostly
due to space limitations for the equipment itself and inflexibilities and
variations with speaker placement from car to car).

I'll agree that proper speaker placement for proper 5.1 reproduction in a car
is not easy, but it can be done and the TL is an example of that. As far as
packaging goes, it's not so hard anymore. They can squeeze multiple decoders
into a box that's less than half the size of a 2-channel car audio amp, and
hide it under a seat or in the trunk. The main problems are cost and
consumer-interest related, not technology related.

The multi-channel audio market is pretty weak; stereo is still too
compelling a format to throw away

I don't think anyone wants to throw away stereo. The transition from a
stereo-bias market to a 5.1-bias market would need to be handled in much the
same way the shifting from VHS to DVD has been handled. It's been 7 since DVD
was introduced and it's only now that retail stores are really starting to
shutdown VHS sales.

Some of the mastering of multi-channel
discs is downright WEIRD-sounding, and often makes no sense other than for
some studio guy to say he made it sound "cool".

Agreed, but *every* title does not neccesarily need to be or will be remastered
in 5.1. Surround systems are completely capable of reproducing stereo
recordings. Hell, some people prefer the original MONO pressing of The Beatle's
"White Album" (actually entitled: The Beatles) to the newer vinyl/optical
Stereo re-masters.

Steve Grauman wrote:
AFAIK, no one makes even a stereo SACD mobile unit let alone a 5.1 piece,
though if anyone would it'll probably be Sony first.


Several companies, with Pioneer at the forefront, have already been producing
in-dash screens with avaliable decoder boxes allowing them to decode Dolby
Digital and even DTS soundtracks in full 5.1 from DVD-Video discs. Seeing as
5.1 channel DTS CDs require only a DTS compatible DVD player and a decoder,
they are inherently already compatible with these screen/decoder combinations.
It's only a matter of time before DVD-Audio and SACD compatibility become
commonplace among high-end units. I'll agree that Sony will probably be the
first to jump in, but that has largely to do with the fact that they own the
rights to the SACD technology, anyone else who wants to use it needs to license
it first.


Panasonic had a
multi-channel DVD-A unit at CES '04, mounted in an Acura TL. The unit is
earmarked to be marketed as OEM only, but IF it takes off


DVD-Audio is already standard, OEM equipment in the Acura TL, and has been
since the newest version debuted in 2002. It's an amazing sound system
comprised of an 8-speaker array which also comes STANDARD with a DTS CD
compatible changer complete with decoder. So you'll get DTS-CD compatibility
out of the box:
http://www.acura.com/models/model_co...asp?module=tl#


Speaking of which has anyone heard the Levison system in the Lexus.
Curious, Levison is synonymous with real high end stuff, just wondered
what he can do in a car?

"mblocks" wrote in message
...
snip
The multi-channel audio market is pretty weak; stereo is still too
compelling a format to throw away. Some of the mastering of multi-channel
discs is downright WEIRD-sounding, and often makes no sense other than for
some studio guy to say he made it sound "cool". And right now you can't
copy the original discs and stay true to the multi-channel format, so even
if there were a player on the market, you're stuck using (and abusing) the
original content discs. I'd guess it's going to be a while, if ever,
before
an aftermarket mobile SACD or DVD-A HU shows up.

So, is that Pioneer P7500 unit sitting in my dashboard a mirage? It seems to
handle DVD-A, DVD-V, DTS, Dolby Digital, XM, CD, MP3, etc. etc. pretty well
right now.

dave



"jpswanberg" wrote in message
...

right now i am running an alpine cda 7878 in my car. it has 2 1 bit da
converters. the nakamichi, denon and the sony have 24 bit da
converters. da converters can make a large difference in sound
quality. the next step up would, imo, be an sacd based head unit. has
anyone heard of/seen a car head unit with sacd capability? jps


--
jpswanberg
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted via RealCarAudio.com - The checkmate of the caraudio community.
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jpswanberg's Profile:
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View this thread:
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Speaking of which has anyone heard the Levison system in the Lexus.
Curious, Levison is synonymous with real high end stuff, just wondered
what he can do in a car?


I've heard both an LS430 and an RX330 equipped with Levinson soud systems.
They're fantastic, probably the best sound OEM system I've ever heard, save for
maybe the "hi-fi digital" systems in some Porsches.

How would the Levinson systems compare to the THX certified systems in the
Lincolns? I've asked this before, but no one's ever responded. I'm very
curious...none of the Lincoln dealers around here have had any in-stock.

Tony


--



What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the
universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that
he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't
have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact

"Steve Grauman" wrote in message
...
Speaking of which has anyone heard the Levison system in the Lexus.
Curious, Levison is synonymous with real high end stuff, just wondered
what he can do in a car?


I've heard both an LS430 and an RX330 equipped with Levinson soud systems.
They're fantastic, probably the best sound OEM system I've ever heard,
save for
maybe the "hi-fi digital" systems in some Porsches.

How would the Levinson systems compare to the THX certified systems in the
Lincolns?

I heard the THX system in an LS and liked it quite a bit. The Levinson system,
the THX (Lincoln) system, Porche's "hi-fi digital" system, the Bose/Acura
system in the TL and the McIntosh system in the 2003 Subaru Outback are all
very good, probably the best OEM systems in the world. I've never been overly
excited by the Jeep/Infinity or BMW/Harmon Kardon systems I've heard, and the
non-Levinson systems in the Lexus cars are OK, but not fantastic.

Mark Levinson (the audio guy) has nothing to do with the Lexus. He's no
longer affiliated with the company that he started. That's TOTALLY Harman
Kardon's doing.


"Andy Weaks" wrote in message
...

Speaking of which has anyone heard the Levison system in the Lexus.
Curious, Levison is synonymous with real high end stuff, just wondered
what he can do in a car?

So it takes me a little while to get back here...


"Steve Grauman" wrote in message
...

DVD-Audio is already standard, OEM equipment in the Acura TL, and has been
since the newest version debuted in 2002.

Since Acura's so far an North American phenomenon, the new UA6 TL was
introduced late in 2003 as an '04 model. My understanding is that it's a
Marysville, OH model for NA consumption only (hence the significance on the
date and the implications concerning the introduction of the TL's DVD-A
unit), though someone in Japan or other markets can correct me if I'm wrong.

I'll agree that proper speaker placement for proper 5.1 reproduction in a
car
is not easy, but it can be done and the TL is an example of that. As far
as
packaging goes, it's not so hard anymore. They can squeeze multiple
decoders
into a box that's less than half the size of a 2-channel car audio amp,
and
hide it under a seat or in the trunk. The main problems are cost and
consumer-interest related, not technology related.

I never said audio technology was the problem. However, auto technology (or
just plain interior styling, materials and impediments--like seats) does get
in the way, especially for the aftermarketeer. Of course you're right in
saying it can be done right, but I certainly don't play in the NBA or am a
CFO skimming my company's assets into the ground, so I don't think the
wonders of multi-channel (if you could call it that) are all that feasible,
to repeat what you said about costs.

Agreed, but *every* title does not neccesarily need to be or will be
remastered
in 5.1. Surround systems are completely capable of reproducing stereo
recordings. Hell, some people prefer the original MONO pressing of The
Beatle's
"White Album" (actually entitled: The Beatles) to the newer vinyl/optical
Stereo re-masters.

Frankly to me, true 5.1 *audio* as it's designed and mastered today makes so
little sense given that I don't normally associate listening to a music
source from the standpoint of being right in the middle of the stage (though
a 3.1 front stage remix with time delay to the rear seems logical, but
that's not what I've generally been experiencing while auditioning
multi-channel media. Maybe the sales guys need to get better discs...).
For movie theater reproduction it's neat and rather convincing, but so far
surround-sound music's been a real letdown.

BTW, I still prefer the warmth and smoothness of vinyl and a top-notch
stylus over CDs, pops and clicks and all...

Well, if you're going to cite an AV unit, sure I'll admit it's real. But
aside from Panasonic's DVD-A ONLY unit for the TL, I don't know of any
others around at this point...but you're free to enlighten me.


"Dave" wrote in message
...

"mblocks" wrote in message
...
snip
The multi-channel audio market is pretty weak; stereo is still too
compelling a format to throw away. Some of the mastering of
multi-channel
discs is downright WEIRD-sounding, and often makes no sense other than
for
some studio guy to say he made it sound "cool". And right now you can't
copy the original discs and stay true to the multi-channel format, so
even
if there were a player on the market, you're stuck using (and abusing)
the
original content discs. I'd guess it's going to be a while, if ever,
before
an aftermarket mobile SACD or DVD-A HU shows up.

So, is that Pioneer P7500 unit sitting in my dashboard a mirage? It seems
to
handle DVD-A, DVD-V, DTS, Dolby Digital, XM, CD, MP3, etc. etc. pretty
well
right now.

dave



"jpswanberg" wrote in message
...

right now i am running an alpine cda 7878 in my car. it has 2 1 bit da
converters. the nakamichi, denon and the sony have 24 bit da
converters. da converters can make a large difference in sound
quality. the next step up would, imo, be an sacd based head unit. has
anyone heard of/seen a car head unit with sacd capability? jps


--
jpswanberg

------------------------------------------------------------------------
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View this thread:
http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/s...threadid=48851

Since Acura's so far an North American phenomenon, the new UA6 TL was
introduced late in 2003 as an '04 model. My understanding is that it's a
Marysville, OH model for NA consumption only (hence the significance on the
date and the implications concerning the introduction of the TL's DVD-A
unit), though someone in Japan or other markets can correct me if I'm wrong.

Acura as a brand-name only exists in North America, but the same cars are also
sold elsewhere under the Honda name. The TL is sold in Japan, and is badged as
a Legend. The Legend line was dropped from the U.S. in 1995 and with it went
the name, but it's carried on elsewhere. And AFAIK, the Legend enjoys the same
options our TL gets.

I never said audio technology was the problem. However, auto technology (or
just plain interior styling, materials and impediments--like seats) does get
in the way, especially for the aftermarketeer.

I find this to be very flimsy logic. Acura's (Honda's) designers had the
ability to design to audio system and it's placement from day 1. Meaning that
they had the ability to compensate and adjust for the many factors of an auto
interior. And while aftermarket suppliers don;t have this luxury, I'd like to
imagine that anyone seriously interested in having proper 5.1 channel
reproduction in-car would take the time to make sure that speakers got placed
properly. This may create the neccesity for adding kickpanels and making other
minor interior modifications, but it's certainly possible.

Frankly to me, true 5.1 *audio* as it's designed and mastered today makes so
little sense given that I don't normally associate listening to a music
source from the standpoint of being right in the middle of the stage

This is true. However, 5.1 music is not really marketed at those looking for
the most "accurate" sound reproduction. It is marketed at those who enjoy the
feeling of "envelopment" afforded them by a true 5.1 channel recording.

For movie theater reproduction it's neat and rather convincing, but so far
surround-sound music's been a real letdown.

I guess it's just a matter of taste. I still prefer my recordings to be in 2.1
(or 3.1 with a center channel) format, for the most part. However, I really
like watching concert videos and listening to live recordings in 5.1. It adds a
much greater sense of "being there" to the experience.

BTW, I still prefer the warmth and smoothness of vinyl and a top-notch
stylus over CDs, pops and clicks and all...

Don't get me started, I could rant for days. I love vinyl, but just like CDs,
it has it's downsides. There are things I prefer about both formats, and that's
probably the way it will always be. As a side note, the only records I
experince clicking or popping with are those that have been poorly stored
and/or handled over the years. I have several from the 60s and 70s that sound
very much like brand-new pressings because they've been continually stored in
an upright position, never exposed to heavy sunlight or high, constant heat and
have been properly cleaned over time. We shouldn't forget that it's a
high-maintenence format and that care needs to be taken to preserve the quality
of LPs.
Steve Grauman