hello, I'm new to recording, I have a Boss GT6 that I run into my
audiophile 2496 soundcard, been messing with it for a month now and
cool edit pro, I manage to get some pretty clear recordings out of
it most of the time.. i have a lot of trouble with guitar distortion,
often they sound muddy and distant.. my questions are as follows:

1- what are the best drum samples available for purchase? grouped
as full kits, wavs. i've heard battery mentionned a lot?

2- i read an article by billy howerdel of a perfect circle where
he mentionned that all the effects on their latest album were
done using protools software, i find that remarkable because
the album sounds like a million bucks. can someone give me a
brief explanation of how this works? where can one find professional
software guitar distortion/overdrive effects? is there a site that
has samples?

3- if i record a guitar track in cool edit, i usually keep the
levels so that nothing ever goes past -9db, 0db being the point
where there would be clipping or crackling.. now if i have my
one track thats at -9db, i can hard limit it and it sounds like
this: http://myshoeshurt0.tripod.com/1.mp3

BUT, if i record another track, or a couple other tracks, all
at -9db or lower, and mix them together, the mixdown track is
now nearly maxed out at -1db.. so when i hard limit it, its not
as loud and present as the original single track:
http://myshoeshurt0.tripod.com/2.mp3

is this normal? because the more guitar tracks i record,
the lower the volume when i mix them together, its like
they get stacked on top of each other.. what i don't get is
how do people record 20-30 guitar overdubs without the final
product sounding like its playing out of a $10 stereo? it
just leads me to believe i'm doing something wrong because
every track i add lowers the volume of the final mix otherwise
the sound gets distorted.. if i put 10 tracks in i have to
lower the dbs on each track so low to avoid clipping and
crackling that the final product is -noticably- less audible
and -noticably- more distant.. any tips would be greatly
appreciated. thanks

In article , Vine wrote:

1- what are the best drum samples available for purchase?

Best ones I've ever heard are in my Roland XV. But this might be
related to the fact that when I first heard them, they were being
played by an awesome drummer playing on his awesome midi drum kit.

2- i read an article by billy howerdel of a perfect circle where
he mentionned that all the effects on their latest album were
done using protools software, i find that remarkable because
the album sounds like a million bucks.

Lots of people use protools, even in studios with a million bucks
invested. Did Billy claim that the album was done *just* using
protools, or using protools and a studio's sweeeeet (5 e's) collection
of outboard fx, $20,000 mikes, and some expensive engineering talent?

3- if i record a guitar track in cool edit, i usually keep the
levels so that nothing ever goes past -9db, 0db being the point
where there would be clipping or crackling..

Why? You have a 24 bit sound card. That's 48dB of headroom over
the best 16 bit ADC. You don't have a -120dB noise floor. Why risk
clip? You can have way low record levels and not really lose snr or
dynamic range. Don't be tempted to treat digital peak meters like
VU meters. Keep your levels low, and think in terms of average level.
There is a hell of a lot of room in 24 bit. You don't really need
to be anywhere near the top of the meter.

just leads me to believe i'm doing something wrong

You're trying to get more "loudness" into the first stage of your
recording, and that's raising your average signal. You're not
normalizing tracks are you? Or using a compressor?

Vine wrote:

3- if i record a guitar track in cool edit, i usually keep the
levels so that nothing ever goes past -9db, 0db being the point
where there would be clipping or crackling.. now if i have my
one track thats at -9db, i can hard limit it and it sounds like
this: http://myshoeshurt0.tripod.com/1.mp3

BUT, if i record another track, or a couple other tracks, all
at -9db or lower, and mix them together, the mixdown track is
now nearly maxed out at -1db.. so when i hard limit it, its not
as loud and present as the original single track:
http://myshoeshurt0.tripod.com/2.mp3

The total is equal to the sum of its parts. If you mix two tracks each
maxing out at -9 dB, you will at least occasionally get peaks of -3. That's
because two equal strength signals add to a signal that peaks 6 dB higher
than either of them. As they say, do the math. Add a third or fourth track
and you might go over the top.

is this normal?

The lazy solution to "maxing out" mixdowns in Audition/Cool Edit is to mix
down in 32 bits mode. In multitrack settings, just turn on 32 bits for all
three items where it relates. However, depending on which version of Cool
Edit you have, these options may not be available. Check it out.

The more-work solution to "maxing out" mixdowns in Audition/Cool Edit is to
set lower operating levels for each track. There seems to be phobia to
running tracks peaking at -20 dB and below, probably because at this point
the waves become so small that you can't see them very well in multitrack
view. I don't know what the solution to this situation is. Maybe some we'll
have the option to start getting used to viewing waves in dBs. Maybe we'll
just have bigger displays.

In 32 bit mode, CoolEdit is almost impossible to overload. The dynamic range
is literally 100's of dBs. Once your 32 bit mixdown is done you'll have to
attenuate or normalize before you covert the mixdown to 16 bits, to avoid
clipping. However, you'll know what the true maximum levels are, so you can
normalize or attenuate accordingly.

Best ones I've ever heard are in my Roland XV. But this might be
related to the fact that when I first heard them, they were being
played by an awesome drummer playing on his awesome midi drum kit.

that doesn't help

Lots of people use protools, even in studios with a million bucks
invested. Did Billy claim that the album was done *just* using
protools, or using protools and a studio's sweeeeet (5 e's) collection
of outboard fx, $20,000 mikes, and some expensive engineering talent?

said all the guitar effects were done with protools software and
then he had a hell of time recreating them with hardware for the tour.
so how i find professional guitar distortion software effects?


Why? You have a 24 bit sound card. That's 48dB of headroom over
the best 16 bit ADC. You don't have a -120dB noise floor. Why risk
clip? You can have way low record levels and not really lose snr or
dynamic range. Don't be tempted to treat digital peak meters like
VU meters. Keep your levels low, and think in terms of average level.
There is a hell of a lot of room in 24 bit. You don't really need
to be anywhere near the top of the meter.

i didn't understand any of this.. can you dumb it down for me?


You're trying to get more "loudness" into the first stage of your
recording, and that's raising your average signal. You're not
normalizing tracks are you? Or using a compressor?

nope, like i said beginner what should i be doing?

The total is equal to the sum of its parts. If you mix two tracks each
maxing out at -9 dB, you will at least occasionally get peaks of -3. That's
because two equal strength signals add to a signal that peaks 6 dB higher
than either of them. As they say, do the math. Add a third or fourth track
and you might go over the top.

so how do you record 30 guitar overdubs and manage to have the final
product sound normal (volume wise)?

The lazy solution to "maxing out" mixdowns in Audition/Cool Edit is to mix
down in 32 bits mode. In multitrack settings, just turn on 32 bits for all
three items where it relates. However, depending on which version of Cool
Edit you have, these options may not be available. Check it out.

ok just did that, i rerecorded the whole thing, mixed it down, everything
is the same. it changed nothing

The more-work solution to "maxing out" mixdowns in Audition/Cool Edit is to
set lower operating levels for each track. There seems to be phobia to
running tracks peaking at -20 dB and below, probably because at this point
the waves become so small that you can't see them very well in multitrack
view. I don't know what the solution to this situation is. Maybe some we'll
have the option to start getting used to viewing waves in dBs. Maybe we'll
just have bigger displays.

but i i've done this, i've recorded all my tracks at low volume so that
i never risk clipping and have to lower volumes in the multitrack, but
it doesn't make a difference because when i mixdown i can still only get
the track to sound clear up to a reduced volume level inversely proprotional
to the number of tracks recorded. so if i recorded 30 tracks, the mixdown
file would probably be three times less loud than i could make a single
guitar track.. and that would be too low. whether i record a track low
at -18 db and hard limit it 18db or record a track at -9db and hard limit
it 9db, the end result is the same. the level i record it at changes
nothing, i could record one track at -1 db, and then if i add another
track i'll just have to lower it by 3db in the multitrack, add another
track, lower it more, etc.. even you end up lowering beyond a reasonable
point.

In 32 bit mode, CoolEdit is almost impossible to overload. The dynamic range
is literally 100's of dBs. Once your 32 bit mixdown is done you'll have to
attenuate or normalize before you covert the mixdown to 16 bits, to avoid
clipping. However, you'll know what the true maximum levels are, so you can
normalize or attenuate accordingly.

it changed nothing for me, it sounded exactly the same as the 16bit,
it looked the same (visually) as the 16 bit, the markers are the same,
the maxes are the same, i could increase the volume no more than i
could the 16 bit, and when i normalized to 100% it cut the volume in half.
half of what you (may) have heard in 2.mp3..

Vine wrote:
The total is equal to the sum of its parts. If you mix two tracks
each maxing out at -9 dB, you will at least occasionally get peaks
of -3. That's because two equal strength signals add to a signal
that peaks 6 dB higher than either of them. As they say, do the
math. Add a third or fourth track and you might go over the top.

so how do you record 30 guitar overdubs and manage to have the final
product sound normal (volume wise)?

Very carefully...

The lazy solution to "maxing out" mixdowns in Audition/Cool Edit is
to mix down in 32 bits mode. In multitrack settings, just turn on
32 bits for all three items where it relates. However, depending on
which version of Cool Edit you have, these options may not be
available. Check it out.

ok just did that, i rerecorded the whole thing, mixed it down,
everything is the same. it changed nothing

I'm betting that you based your judgment on either monitoring of the 32 bit
file via your audio interface, or via a 16 bit file that wasn't first
normalized in the 32 bit domain. Audio interfaces as a rule don't handle 32
bit signals that are greater than full scale (i.e. 1.00) very well.

Here's the exact order of operations:

(1) Mix down to a 32 bit (floating point) mixdown file.
(2) Normalize or other wise attenuate the mixdown file so that it doesn't
exceed FS. I typically normalize to 1 dB below FS.
(3) Playback via audio interface or convert 32 bit normalized mixdown file
to 15 bits.

The more-work solution to "maxing out" mixdowns in Audition/Cool
Edit is to set lower operating levels for each track. There seems to
be phobia to running tracks peaking at -20 dB and below, probably
because at this point the waves become so small that you can't see
them very well in multitrack view. I don't know what the solution to
this situation is. Maybe some we'll have the option to start
getting used to viewing waves in dBs. Maybe we'll just have bigger
displays.

but i i've done this, i've recorded all my tracks at low volume so
that i never risk clipping and have to lower volumes in the
multitrack, but it doesn't make a difference because when i mixdown i
can still only get the track to sound clear up to a reduced volume
level inversely proprotional to the number of tracks recorded. so if
i recorded 30 tracks, the mixdown file would probably be three times
less loud than i could make a single guitar track.. and that would be
too low.

So then bring it up to say, 1 dB below full scale.

whether i record a track low at -18 db and hard limit it
18db or record a track at -9db and hard limit it 9db, the end result
is the same. the level i record it at changes nothing, i could record
one track at -1 db, and then if i add another track i'll just have to
lower it by 3db in the multitrack, add another track, lower it more,
etc.. even you end up lowering beyond a reasonable point.

I think that's inherent in the process. The more voices you add, the smaller
the contribution of each voice, given that overall loudness stays the same.

In 32 bit mode, CoolEdit is almost impossible to overload. The
dynamic range is literally 100's of dBs. Once your 32 bit mixdown
is done you'll have to attenuate or normalize before you covert the
mixdown to 16 bits, to avoid clipping. However, you'll know what the
true maximum levels are, so you can normalize or attenuate
accordingly.

it changed nothing for me, it sounded exactly the same as the 16bit,
it looked the same (visually) as the 16 bit, the markers are the same,
the maxes are the same, i could increase the volume no more than i
could the 16 bit, and when i normalized to 100% it cut the volume in
half. half of what you (may) have heard in 2.mp3..

That's inherent in the process. In the end, everything can sum to no more
than 1.0. With floating point it is acceptable to have intermediate results
that are 1.0, but before you burn the CD or route it out your audio
interface, nothing can go 1.0 without the certainty of clipping.

In article ,
Vine wrote:

i didn't understand any of this.. can you dumb it down for me?

Yeah. Your input levels are too high. There's no reason you need them
at the top of the scale. Work at -16dB or so. -48dB on a 24 bit
recorder is equivalent to 0 on a 16 bit recorder.

Do you, by any chance, have an analog tape recorder with an actual VU
meter? If you were to put that in your signal path, it would show you
the difference between analog VU, which is a measure of average
loudness, and digital peak, which is a whole nother animal.

Work for a while with way lower levels, and you'll get a good idea of
what's going on. Even if you're recording heavy metal guitar tracks or
a punk rock band, it's a mistake to record near the top of the 24 bit
scale. If you really want to end up with one of those awful finished
"products" with all the dynamic range in a single bit, you can f*k that
up at the last step.

nope, like i said beginner

Unlearn anything you know about using a tape recorder.

nevermind, you guys don't get it, what difference does it make what level
i record at? in the sense that how does that change my potential final
mix maximum volume? if i record a track at -9db, i can hard limit it
to its max volume +9db, if i record the same thing at -18db and hard
limit it to its max +18db, it'll sound -exactly- the same.. i did it,
sounds the same, i made a new file in cool edit, one 16 bit and one
32 bit, recorded the same thing, made each one as loud as possible
without dsitorting the sound, verdict: exactly the same. i normalized
to 100% and all that did was cut the volume in half, the exact opposite
of what i'm trying to accomplish

now if i record 30 guitar tracks and try to mix them together, it'll
sound like crap, all i want to know is how do bands record 30 layers
of rhythm guitar and have it sound like a huge LOUD wall of sound
five inches from your face instead of it sounding distant and barely
audible? the more tracks i record, the lower the volume of each individual
track has to be to avoid crackling and distortion.. at ten tracks it
becomes futile.

also, do any of you know where to find software guitar distortion/overdrive
tones, ie protools, and where one could hear samples, etc.?

nevermind, you guys don't get it, what difference does it make what level
i record at? in the sense that how does that change my potential final
mix maximum volume? if i record a track at -9db, i can hard limit it
to its max volume +9db, if i record the same thing at -18db and hard
limit it to its max +18db, it'll sound -exactly- the same.. i did it,
sounds the same, i made a new file in cool edit, one 16 bit and one
32 bit, recorded the same thing, made each one as loud as possible
without dsitorting the sound, verdict: exactly the same. i normalized
to 100% and all that did was cut the volume in half, the exact opposite
of what i'm trying to accomplish

now if i record 30 guitar tracks and try to mix them together, it'll
sound like crap, all i want to know is how do bands record 30 layers
of rhythm guitar and have it sound like a huge LOUD wall of sound
five inches from your face instead of it sounding distant and barely
audible? the more tracks i record, the lower the volume of each individual
track has to be to avoid crackling and distortion.. at ten tracks it
becomes futile.

also, do any of you know where to find software guitar distortion/overdrive
tones, ie protools, and where one could hear samples, etc.?

(Vine) wrote in message ...

First of all I didn't download your mp3 as it would take about 10
minutes. It's helpful to have smaller samples. I only need to listen
for about 20 seconds to know what is going on.

i normalized
to 100% and all that did was cut the volume in half, the exact opposite
of what i'm trying to accomplish

Normalising takes your mix to the maximum average volume without
clipping. To go beyond that is hard to do without adding clipping.
Now the big time mastering houses have tricks and expensive
equipment/software that can normalise commercial CDs to be a bit
louder but not much louder. Burn your normalised mix to a CD.
Compare it's levels with a good in your face commercial CD. You
shoudn't hear too big of a volume differance. If you do then I would
low end stealing all the head room. Be sure to do the comparitive
listening on a system with a good sub woofer.


now if i record 30 guitar tracks and try to mix them together, it'll
sound like crap, all i want to know is how do bands record 30 layers
of rhythm guitar and have it sound like a huge LOUD wall of sound

The answer is dont record 30 rythem tracks. Godsmack has one
guitarist. ACDC has two. Lynryd Skynrd has three but not all three
are playing at the same time. Listen to the wall of sound tracks of
your favorite band. Listen carefully and hear what they are doing.
When I listen critically I am often suprised at how much they
accomplish with so little. A key in production is to use as little as
possible. I rarely have two electric guitar tracks in a recording
except occasional overdubs to include a lead solo that occupies the
spot in the mix that was the lead vocal.

I know your GT6 unit very well and the Satch setting sounds HUGE in
STERIO. Just remember the more you add to a mix the less nuances you
will be able to include. If you record 3 tracks of guitar and one of
em is the satch setting, your not going to be able to hear all the
nuances of the long panning echo because the other tracks are
competing. You have to carefully pick what you want to stand out. It
typically use very little effects as possible on rythem guitar tracks.

five inches from your face instead of it sounding distant and barely
audible? the more tracks i record, the lower the volume of each individual
track has to be to avoid crackling and distortion.. at ten tracks it
becomes futile.

You mentioned crackles. This almost maks me think of completely off
the wall issues such as driver problems, card incompatability, slow
processor speed and who the hell knows what else.

Ten tracks should be easy to do as long as your instruments have thier
own place in the sonic mix. Each instrument occupies a differant
frequency in the mix. It's like a pie you cut up and there are only so
many pieces. The kick and bass get the large peice of the lows,
guitars get the mid pieces of the pie, high hat gets some of high
peices.... ect... For example if you do a bass with a growly mid high
added it will compete with something for mid highs. Is the growl
sound important enough to cut the other competing instrument out of
the mix?


also, do any of you know where to find software guitar distortion/overdrive
tones, ie protools, and where one could hear samples, etc.?

I've used this stuff and it is no-where near as good as the GT6.
Perhaps protools has perfected this but protools is thousands of
dollars in hardware/software. Your better off asking in a guitar
player newsgroup.

Are you using the headphone setting on your GT6? That's the setting
you need for direct recording. Go into utilities and set it from
amp/speaker combo to headphone. This is the line setting to record
direct with the GT6.

Dont forget to try recording things in sterio. It'll sound bigger.
The grunge distortion is quite a good in your face setting patch. I
have happily used the GT6 stock patchs (modified) on countless paid
sessions, CD projects... ect... I always smile when I go to a concert
and see GT6 sitting in front of the guitarist.

As for drum machines. Good ones can be had for cheap.

IR

First of all I didn't download your mp3 as it would take about 10
minutes. It's helpful to have smaller samples. I only need to listen
for about 20 seconds to know what is going on.

they are small, they're like 10 seconds and 500k each

I know your GT6 unit very well and the Satch setting sounds HUGE in
STERIO.

whats the satch setting? satriani? i don't see it

You mentioned crackles. This almost maks me think of completely off
the wall issues such as driver problems, card incompatability, slow
processor speed and who the hell knows what else.

nah, it happens when i make my tracks louder than they should be i guess..

Ten tracks should be easy to do as long as your instruments have thier
own place in the sonic mix. Each instrument occupies a differant
frequency in the mix.

but when you do overdubs of the same instrument you now have two
of the same trying to squeeze into the same piece of the pie, is
there a trick to getting them to fit together without affecting
the volume of the overall mix? some eqing trick or something..

Are you using the headphone setting on your GT6?

i do even though they all sound the same, i use the digital out..

Dont forget to try recording things in sterio. It'll sound bigger.
The grunge distortion is quite a good in your face setting patch.

where is the grunge distortion, i read the list i can't find it?

i have such trouble getting a big, deep, thick, in your face
distortion that doesn't sound muddy or distant.. its either distant
and muddy or bright and fuzzy.. any ideas? preamp/overdrive combos,
settings, etc.. ? i wish there was a site online where people put
up samples of their favorite tones and the settings to make them..