[JimC]

I would like to upgrade my audio-HT system with a pre-processor (or
multi-channel receiver with line-level outputs) that could replace
several components I'm now using. These include DVD players, turntable,
a Carver C-1 stereo preamp feeding power amps for stereo; an Onkyo DS676
receiver with preamp sections used with interconnects feeding five
external power amps for DVD audio, Dish TV, and (in "pass-through mode")
as a multi-channel preamp for mutli-channel SACD audio. For SACD
multi-channel, I also sometimes use an Outlaw ICBM for bass management.
I'm using several Magneplaner speakers, including 3.6r's in the front,
and two Velodyne woofers. I know this all sounds confusing, but it works
somehow. However, it would be helpful if I could replace all these
components (and interconnects) with a new and improved, integrated
multi-channel processor with current digital output capabilities.

Here's what I think I need:

A. Multi-channel pre-amp/processor including preamp sections for
stereo and multi-channel, with low distortion equivalent to the audio
response I get (in stereo) from the Carver preamp;

B. The multi-channel preamp having capability for either
pass-through or processing mode for SACD, the processing mode providing
bass management at least equivalent to what the Outlaw ICBM provides
(including X-overs that are individually adjustable for front, mid, and
surround, speakers) and preferably with processing in both analog and
digital modes;

C. Multiple switchable video inputs and outputs, including HDMI
output(s) compatible with current and future 1080p DVD and Dish
programming; and

D. Capability of handling the audio output modes now used or
proposed for use with HD DVD, including HDMI 1.3 surround sound and
"true HD". (For example, I don't want to invest $$$$ in a pre/processor
in 2006 and then find that it isn't designed to handle surround sound
formats used with BlueRay HD DVD in 2007.)

I prefer the keep the cost below $1,500 - $2,000, and I'm willing to
wait until next year if that's necessary.

My question is: are these functions available now in a single
pre/processor, or, if not, is it likely that they will be available next
year? Or, is it expected that they won't be available in a single unit?
In other words, practically speaking, would it be more reasonable to use
separate components for audio and video? (For example, as outlined
above, I'm now using separate preamps for stereo and surround, and I
think that my old Carver preamp provides better audio than the Onkio
receiver, despite the fact that it is newer and can perform the same
function in stereo. - I don't want to give up this audio performance.)

Another question is: The new surround receivers seem to have more
up-to-date video functions. - Would they provide the same quality audio
and the same versatility as a pre/processor? For example, as understood,
the Outlaw 990 processor (more expensive than their 1070 7.1 receiver)
doesn't include some of the features of the 1070 unit, such as bass
management in the analog mode. (One of my problems is that the people
talking about new HTMI connections don't seem to know anything about
audio and bass management, etc., and vice versa.

Corrections, suggestions, and advice will be appreciated.

Jim

[Vinyl Rules!]

You wrote:

" Capability of handling the audio output modes now used or
proposed for use with HD DVD, including HDMI 1.3 surround sound and
"true HD". (For example, I don't want to invest $$$$ in a pre/processor
in 2006 and then find that it isn't designed to handle surround sound
formats used with BlueRay HD DVD in 2007.)"

IMHO this is an unrealistic expectation because HDMI and the hi-res DVD
formats are moving targets. As for SACD bass management in a
multi-channel pre-amp, I'm not aware of any in the $1,500 to $2,000
price range you note.

Talk to any honest home installer and most will tell you they are NOT
using HDMI to link their customers systems because HDMI 1.0 doesn't
always talk to HDMI 1.1 and the same issues pop up with HDMI 1.2. And
now we're supposed to get HDMI 1.3 and no one really knows how it will
handle HDMI 1.0, 1.1 and 1.2 data. And every manufacturer's versions of
their HDMI is a little bit different from another manufacturer so this
just compounds the problems with the various components seamlessly
passing data. IMHO, anyone who wants to hook up all their equipment
right now via HDMI is nothing more than a "beta" tester for the home
entertainment industry. YMMV, of course.

Most installers I know wire their customer's systems using the
component inputs on their video displays because they have so many
problems getting different brands with the same HDMI numbers to "talk"
to each other. The only problem is that the content providers can
"flag" their hi-rez DVDs to either downscale or not pass any data at
all to the component output of a hi-rez DVD player, but so far, none
have said they will do this.

But do you really trust Hollywierd?

I would counsel caution and conservatism when it comes to hi-rez DVDs
and HDMI: HD-DVD and Blu Ray could well end up fizzling like SACD and
DVD-Audio and I don't think knowledgeable consumers really trust the
content providers to NOT turn on the flag to either block or down-rez
the output to the component video output if a hi-rez DVD format
actually becomes successful.

Many DVD players will upscale a DVD to 720p and unless you've got a 42"
or bigger screen I don't think you're going to see much difference
between upscaled 720p and native 1080p from a hi-rez DVD player on a
screen this size.

As for the pre-amp, I personally like the control flexibility of the
Yamaha RX-V series, so I bought one of their receivers to use solely as
a pre-amp and I can feed and switch component video from my DISH
Network system and DVD player to my video display. The Yamaha was a
heck of a lot cheaper than one of those über-expensive pre-amps that
do HDMI switching and multi-channel bass management and may be obsolete
in 2 or 3 years.

IMHO, the pre-amps of many A/V receivers are far more advanced and more
sophisticated than the A/V pre-amps from the specialty high-end
manufacturers who probably have to contract out the A/V engineering for
their units because they can't afford to keep a really good A/V design
engineer on staff. Again, YMMV, of course.

JimC wrote:
I would like to upgrade my audio-HT system with a pre-processor (or
multi-channel receiver with line-level outputs) that could replace
several components I'm now using. These include DVD players, turntable,
a Carver C-1 stereo preamp feeding power amps for stereo; an Onkyo DS676
receiver with preamp sections used with interconnects feeding five
external power amps for DVD audio, Dish TV, and (in "pass-through mode")
as a multi-channel preamp for mutli-channel SACD audio. For SACD
multi-channel, I also sometimes use an Outlaw ICBM for bass management.
I'm using several Magneplaner speakers, including 3.6r's in the front,
and two Velodyne woofers. I know this all sounds confusing, but it works
somehow. However, it would be helpful if I could replace all these
components (and interconnects) with a new and improved, integrated
multi-channel processor with current digital output capabilities.

Here's what I think I need:

A. Multi-channel pre-amp/processor including preamp sections for
stereo and multi-channel, with low distortion equivalent to the audio
response I get (in stereo) from the Carver preamp;

B. The multi-channel preamp having capability for either
pass-through or processing mode for SACD, the processing mode providing
bass management at least equivalent to what the Outlaw ICBM provides
(including X-overs that are individually adjustable for front, mid, and
surround, speakers) and preferably with processing in both analog and
digital modes;

C. Multiple switchable video inputs and outputs, including HDMI
output(s) compatible with current and future 1080p DVD and Dish
programming; and

D. Capability of handling the audio output modes now used or
proposed for use with HD DVD, including HDMI 1.3 surround sound and
"true HD". (For example, I don't want to invest $$$$ in a pre/processor
in 2006 and then find that it isn't designed to handle surround sound
formats used with BlueRay HD DVD in 2007.)

I prefer the keep the cost below $1,500 - $2,000, and I'm willing to
wait until next year if that's necessary.

My question is: are these functions available now in a single
pre/processor, or, if not, is it likely that they will be available next
year? Or, is it expected that they won't be available in a single unit?
In other words, practically speaking, would it be more reasonable to use
separate components for audio and video? (For example, as outlined
above, I'm now using separate preamps for stereo and surround, and I
think that my old Carver preamp provides better audio than the Onkio
receiver, despite the fact that it is newer and can perform the same
function in stereo. - I don't want to give up this audio performance.)

Another question is: The new surround receivers seem to have more
up-to-date video functions. - Would they provide the same quality audio
and the same versatility as a pre/processor? For example, as understood,
the Outlaw 990 processor (more expensive than their 1070 7.1 receiver)
doesn't include some of the features of the 1070 unit, such as bass
management in the analog mode. (One of my problems is that the people
talking about new HTMI connections don't seem to know anything about
audio and bass management, etc., and vice versa.

Corrections, suggestions, and advice will be appreciated.

Jim

[JimC]

Thanks for your response. - I'm still a little confused, as indicated below.

Vinyl Rules! wrote:

You wrote:

" Capability of handling the audio output modes now used or
proposed for use with HD DVD, including HDMI 1.3 surround sound and
"true HD". (For example, I don't want to invest $$$$ in a pre/processor
in 2006 and then find that it isn't designed to handle surround sound
formats used with BlueRay HD DVD in 2007.)"

IMHO this is an unrealistic expectation because HDMI and the hi-res DVD
formats are moving targets. As for SACD bass management in a
multi-channel pre-amp, I'm not aware of any in the $1,500 to $2,000
price range you note.

What about the Outlaw 990, at about $1,100? Also, I thought Rotel made a
multi-function pre/processor in this price range.

Talk to any honest home installer and most will tell you they are NOT
using HDMI to link their customers systems because HDMI 1.0 doesn't
always talk to HDMI 1.1 and the same issues pop up with HDMI 1.2. And
now we're supposed to get HDMI 1.3 and no one really knows how it will
handle HDMI 1.0, 1.1 and 1.2 data. And every manufacturer's versions of
their HDMI is a little bit different from another manufacturer so this
just compounds the problems with the various components seamlessly
passing data. IMHO, anyone who wants to hook up all their equipment
right now via HDMI is nothing more than a "beta" tester for the home
entertainment industry. YMMV, of course.


My question was (1) whether they are available now, or (2) whether they
will likely be available next year. I'm not interested in being a Beta
tester, but I had read that the 1.3 format was recently finalized. - One
of my interests was the possibility of a new surround audio format in
BluRay. - If it turns out to be good and generally accepted, it may take
the place of other formats, I would prefer to have the option of using
it.

Most installers I know wire their customer's systems using the
component inputs on their video displays because they have so many
problems getting different brands with the same HDMI numbers to "talk"
to each other. The only problem is that the content providers can
"flag" their hi-rez DVDs to either downscale or not pass any data at
all to the component output of a hi-rez DVD player, but so far, none
have said they will do this.

But do you really trust Hollywierd?

I would counsel caution and conservatism when it comes to hi-rez DVDs
and HDMI: HD-DVD and Blu Ray could well end up fizzling like SACD and
DVD-Audio and I don't think knowledgeable consumers really trust the
content providers to NOT turn on the flag to either block or down-rez
the output to the component video output if a hi-rez DVD format
actually becomes successful.


I'm not sure I understand the significance of the blocking/down-rez
flag. - If I understand the concept, they can turn the flag on to
degrade the component video output, but not the HDMI output. If so,
wouldn't it be safer to have both the component and HDMI options?

Many DVD players will upscale a DVD to 720p and unless you've got a 42"
or bigger screen I don't think you're going to see much difference
between upscaled 720p and native 1080p from a hi-rez DVD player on a
screen this size.

Actually, I have a 92" screen (front projection), and the image I get
from high definition broadcasts (via DISH) is far better than STV and
normal DVD images. I haven't tried an upscaling DVD player however.


As for the pre-amp, I personally like the control flexibility of the
Yamaha RX-V series, so I bought one of their receivers to use solely as
a pre-amp and I can feed and switch component video from my DISH
Network system and DVD player to my video display. The Yamaha was a
heck of a lot cheaper than one of those über-expensive pre-amps that
do HDMI switching and multi-channel bass management and may be obsolete
in 2 or 3 years.

IMHO, the pre-amps of many A/V receivers are far more advanced and more
sophisticated than the A/V pre-amps from the specialty high-end
manufacturers who probably have to contract out the A/V engineering for
their units because they can't afford to keep a really good A/V design
engineer on staff. Again, YMMV, of course.


In any event, I'm beginning to agree that it may be impractical to
expect one pre/processor to handle both functions (video and audio)
well, so I'm prepared to wait until things settle down re HDMI.
Meanwhile, for audio, I am not satisfied with the multi-channel SACD
sound. I'm presently using the preamp section of an Onkyo DS676 receiver
(with external power amps) and a Sony CE775 multi-channel SACD player.
(For stereo, however, I don't use these components but instead use an
old Carver preamp and a Sony S9000ES (CD/SACD stereo) player.) As in
your case with the Yamaha receiver, I use the Onkyo for volume control
and for handling signals from a DISH satellite, although I also have an
external switching arrangement also for switching video sources.

As mentioned, the audio response in stereo, using the Carver preamp and
9000ES player, is great. However, IMO the audio from multi-channel
SACDs sounds like the high frequencies have been somewhat attenuated or
rolled off. So, I'm concluding that at least one of the components used
for SACD multi-channel - i.e., the CE775 player and the Onkyo receiver -
isn't performing as it should. Also, because I only have two full-range
speakers (Maggie 3.6R), I think I need some form of bass control,
although I have tried it with all controls switched to "pass-through."

Does anyone have suggestions for improving the multi-channel SACD audio
other than replacing everything with high-end, high-$$$ components? I'm
guessing that upgrading the multi-channel SACD player may be a good
first step, since I have read other reviews questioning the response of
the CE775.

Jim

[Harry Lavo]

"JimC" wrote in message
...
Thanks for your response. - I'm still a little confused, as indicated
below.

Vinyl Rules! wrote:

You wrote:

" Capability of handling the audio output modes now used or
proposed for use with HD DVD, including HDMI 1.3 surround sound and
"true HD". (For example, I don't want to invest $$$$ in a pre/processor
in 2006 and then find that it isn't designed to handle surround sound
formats used with BlueRay HD DVD in 2007.)"

IMHO this is an unrealistic expectation because HDMI and the hi-res DVD
formats are moving targets. As for SACD bass management in a
multi-channel pre-amp, I'm not aware of any in the $1,500 to $2,000
price range you note.

What about the Outlaw 990, at about $1,100? Also, I thought Rotel made a
multi-function pre/processor in this price range.

Talk to any honest home installer and most will tell you they are NOT
using HDMI to link their customers systems because HDMI 1.0 doesn't
always talk to HDMI 1.1 and the same issues pop up with HDMI 1.2. And
now we're supposed to get HDMI 1.3 and no one really knows how it will
handle HDMI 1.0, 1.1 and 1.2 data. And every manufacturer's versions of
their HDMI is a little bit different from another manufacturer so this
just compounds the problems with the various components seamlessly
passing data. IMHO, anyone who wants to hook up all their equipment
right now via HDMI is nothing more than a "beta" tester for the home
entertainment industry. YMMV, of course.


My question was (1) whether they are available now, or (2) whether they
will likely be available next year. I'm not interested in being a Beta
tester, but I had read that the 1.3 format was recently finalized. - One
of my interests was the possibility of a new surround audio format in
BluRay. - If it turns out to be good and generally accepted, it may take
the place of other formats, I would prefer to have the option of using it.

Most installers I know wire their customer's systems using the
component inputs on their video displays because they have so many
problems getting different brands with the same HDMI numbers to "talk"
to each other. The only problem is that the content providers can
"flag" their hi-rez DVDs to either downscale or not pass any data at
all to the component output of a hi-rez DVD player, but so far, none
have said they will do this.

But do you really trust Hollywierd?

I would counsel caution and conservatism when it comes to hi-rez DVDs
and HDMI: HD-DVD and Blu Ray could well end up fizzling like SACD and
DVD-Audio and I don't think knowledgeable consumers really trust the
content providers to NOT turn on the flag to either block or down-rez
the output to the component video output if a hi-rez DVD format
actually becomes successful.


I'm not sure I understand the significance of the blocking/down-rez
flag. - If I understand the concept, they can turn the flag on to degrade
the component video output, but not the HDMI output. If so, wouldn't it
be safer to have both the component and HDMI options?

Many DVD players will upscale a DVD to 720p and unless you've got a 42"
or bigger screen I don't think you're going to see much difference
between upscaled 720p and native 1080p from a hi-rez DVD player on a
screen this size.

Actually, I have a 92" screen (front projection), and the image I get from
high definition broadcasts (via DISH) is far better than STV and normal
DVD images. I haven't tried an upscaling DVD player however.


As for the pre-amp, I personally like the control flexibility of the
Yamaha RX-V series, so I bought one of their receivers to use solely as
a pre-amp and I can feed and switch component video from my DISH
Network system and DVD player to my video display. The Yamaha was a
heck of a lot cheaper than one of those über-expensive pre-amps that
do HDMI switching and multi-channel bass management and may be obsolete
in 2 or 3 years.

IMHO, the pre-amps of many A/V receivers are far more advanced and more
sophisticated than the A/V pre-amps from the specialty high-end
manufacturers who probably have to contract out the A/V engineering for
their units because they can't afford to keep a really good A/V design
engineer on staff. Again, YMMV, of course.


In any event, I'm beginning to agree that it may be impractical to expect
one pre/processor to handle both functions (video and audio) well, so I'm
prepared to wait until things settle down re HDMI. Meanwhile, for audio, I
am not satisfied with the multi-channel SACD sound. I'm presently using
the preamp section of an Onkyo DS676 receiver (with external power amps)
and a Sony CE775 multi-channel SACD player. (For stereo, however, I don't
use these components but instead use an old Carver preamp and a Sony
S9000ES (CD/SACD stereo) player.) As in your case with the Yamaha
receiver, I use the Onkyo for volume control and for handling signals from
a DISH satellite, although I also have an external switching arrangement
also for switching video sources.

As mentioned, the audio response in stereo, using the Carver preamp and
9000ES player, is great. However, IMO the audio from multi-channel SACDs
sounds like the high frequencies have been somewhat attenuated or rolled
off. So, I'm concluding that at least one of the components used for SACD
multi-channel - i.e., the CE775 player and the Onkyo receiver - isn't
performing as it should. Also, because I only have two full-range
speakers (Maggie 3.6R), I think I need some form of bass control, although
I have tried it with all controls switched to "pass-through."

Does anyone have suggestions for improving the multi-channel SACD audio
other than replacing everything with high-end, high-$$$ components? I'm
guessing that upgrading the multi-channel SACD player may be a good first
step, since I have read other reviews questioning the response of the
CE775.


Jim, I own the Sony CE775, the Sony C222ES, and the Sony C2000ES CD/SACD
players. Of these, the C2000ES is the latest, and it sounds substantially
different than the other two. It is brighter and it is more transparent.
Unfortunately, it sounds a little "rougher" in the midrange than the other
two, but for me with multichannel, its an acceptable trade off.

They are out of production, but there is an outfit on eBay that consistently
offers grey market Canadian units for just under $300...and at that price
they are an absolute steal.

If I were you, I'd give one of them a try as your first option.

[Steven Sullivan]

JimC wrote:
Thanks for your response. - I'm still a little confused, as indicated below.

Vinyl Rules! wrote:

You wrote:

" Capability of handling the audio output modes now used or
proposed for use with HD DVD, including HDMI 1.3 surround sound and
"true HD". (For example, I don't want to invest $$$$ in a pre/processor
in 2006 and then find that it isn't designed to handle surround sound
formats used with BlueRay HD DVD in 2007.)"

IMHO this is an unrealistic expectation because HDMI and the hi-res DVD
formats are moving targets. As for SACD bass management in a
multi-channel pre-amp, I'm not aware of any in the $1,500 to $2,000
price range you note.

What about the Outlaw 990, at about $1,100? Also, I thought Rotel made a
multi-function pre/processor in this price range.

you an get it in an AVR for $1500 (Pioneer74txvi but you'll also need a
DVD player that outputs ilink (e.g., Yamaha S2500, various Pioneer
models).

The Oppo DV-97HD ($160) outputs DVD-A and SACD via HDMI, but the SACD output
apparently gets DSP in the player first (coverting it to multichannel)
, and it's unclear how many AVRs can process the HDMI 1.1 output.

In any event, I'm beginning to agree that it may be impractical to
expect one pre/processor to handle both functions (video and audio)
well, so I'm prepared to wait until things settle down re HDMI.

At your price point, you're probably better off with an AVR.

___
-S
"As human beings, we understand the world through simile, analogy,
metaphor, narrative and, sometimes, claymation." - B. Mason

[JimC]

Harry Lavo wrote:

"JimC" wrote in message
...

Thanks for your response. - I'm still a little confused, as indicated
below.

Vinyl Rules! wrote:


You wrote:

" Capability of handling the audio output modes now used or
proposed for use with HD DVD, including HDMI 1.3 surround sound and
"true HD". (For example, I don't want to invest $$$$ in a pre/processor
in 2006 and then find that it isn't designed to handle surround sound
formats used with BlueRay HD DVD in 2007.)"

IMHO this is an unrealistic expectation because HDMI and the hi-res DVD
formats are moving targets. As for SACD bass management in a
multi-channel pre-amp, I'm not aware of any in the $1,500 to $2,000
price range you note.

What about the Outlaw 990, at about $1,100? Also, I thought Rotel made a
multi-function pre/processor in this price range.


Talk to any honest home installer and most will tell you they are NOT
using HDMI to link their customers systems because HDMI 1.0 doesn't
always talk to HDMI 1.1 and the same issues pop up with HDMI 1.2. And
now we're supposed to get HDMI 1.3 and no one really knows how it will
handle HDMI 1.0, 1.1 and 1.2 data. And every manufacturer's versions of
their HDMI is a little bit different from another manufacturer so this
just compounds the problems with the various components seamlessly
passing data. IMHO, anyone who wants to hook up all their equipment
right now via HDMI is nothing more than a "beta" tester for the home
entertainment industry. YMMV, of course.


My question was (1) whether they are available now, or (2) whether they
will likely be available next year. I'm not interested in being a Beta
tester, but I had read that the 1.3 format was recently finalized. - One
of my interests was the possibility of a new surround audio format in
BluRay. - If it turns out to be good and generally accepted, it may take
the place of other formats, I would prefer to have the option of using it.


Most installers I know wire their customer's systems using the
component inputs on their video displays because they have so many
problems getting different brands with the same HDMI numbers to "talk"
to each other. The only problem is that the content providers can
"flag" their hi-rez DVDs to either downscale or not pass any data at
all to the component output of a hi-rez DVD player, but so far, none
have said they will do this.

But do you really trust Hollywierd?


IMHO, the pre-amps of many A/V receivers are far more advanced and more
sophisticated than the A/V pre-amps from the specialty high-end
manufacturers who probably have to contract out the A/V engineering for
their units because they can't afford to keep a really good A/V design
engineer on staff. Again, YMMV, of course.


-----------------------------------
As mentioned, the audio response in stereo, using the Carver preamp and
9000ES player, is great. However, IMO the audio from multi-channel SACDs
sounds like the high frequencies have been somewhat attenuated or rolled
off. So, I'm concluding that at least one of the components used for SACD
multi-channel - i.e., the CE775 player and the Onkyo receiver - isn't
performing as it should. Also, because I only have two full-range
speakers (Maggie 3.6R), I think I need some form of bass control, although
I have tried it with all controls switched to "pass-through."

Does anyone have suggestions for improving the multi-channel SACD audio
other than replacing everything with high-end, high-$$$ components? I'm
guessing that upgrading the multi-channel SACD player may be a good first
step, since I have read other reviews questioning the response of the
CE775.



Jim, I own the Sony CE775, the Sony C222ES, and the Sony C2000ES CD/SACD
players. Of these, the C2000ES is the latest, and it sounds substantially
different than the other two. It is brighter and it is more transparent.
Unfortunately, it sounds a little "rougher" in the midrange than the other
two, but for me with multichannel, its an acceptable trade off.

They are out of production, but there is an outfit on eBay that consistently
offers grey market Canadian units for just under $300...and at that price
they are an absolute steal.

If I were you, I'd give one of them a try as your first option.


Thanks for the suggestion. - Did you also think the high frequency
response of your CE775 was attenuated or rolled off?

Jim

[Kalman Rubinson]

On 29 Aug 2006 23:23:43 GMT, Steven Sullivan wrote:

The Oppo DV-97HD ($160) outputs DVD-A and SACD via HDMI, but the SACD output
apparently gets DSP in the player first (coverting it to multichannel)
, and it's unclear how many AVRs can process the HDMI 1.1 output.

It converts SACD to PCM whether it's multichannel or stereo.

Kal

[Harry Lavo]

"JimC" wrote in message
...
Harry Lavo wrote:

"JimC" wrote in message
...

Thanks for your response. - I'm still a little confused, as indicated
below.

Vinyl Rules! wrote:


You wrote:

" Capability of handling the audio output modes now used or
proposed for use with HD DVD, including HDMI 1.3 surround sound and
"true HD". (For example, I don't want to invest $$$$ in a pre/processor
in 2006 and then find that it isn't designed to handle surround sound
formats used with BlueRay HD DVD in 2007.)"

IMHO this is an unrealistic expectation because HDMI and the hi-res DVD
formats are moving targets. As for SACD bass management in a
multi-channel pre-amp, I'm not aware of any in the $1,500 to $2,000
price range you note.

What about the Outlaw 990, at about $1,100? Also, I thought Rotel made a
multi-function pre/processor in this price range.


Talk to any honest home installer and most will tell you they are NOT
using HDMI to link their customers systems because HDMI 1.0 doesn't
always talk to HDMI 1.1 and the same issues pop up with HDMI 1.2. And
now we're supposed to get HDMI 1.3 and no one really knows how it will
handle HDMI 1.0, 1.1 and 1.2 data. And every manufacturer's versions of
their HDMI is a little bit different from another manufacturer so this
just compounds the problems with the various components seamlessly
passing data. IMHO, anyone who wants to hook up all their equipment
right now via HDMI is nothing more than a "beta" tester for the home
entertainment industry. YMMV, of course.


My question was (1) whether they are available now, or (2) whether they
will likely be available next year. I'm not interested in being a Beta
tester, but I had read that the 1.3 format was recently finalized. - One
of my interests was the possibility of a new surround audio format in
BluRay. - If it turns out to be good and generally accepted, it may take
the place of other formats, I would prefer to have the option of using
it.


Most installers I know wire their customer's systems using the
component inputs on their video displays because they have so many
problems getting different brands with the same HDMI numbers to "talk"
to each other. The only problem is that the content providers can
"flag" their hi-rez DVDs to either downscale or not pass any data at
all to the component output of a hi-rez DVD player, but so far, none
have said they will do this.

But do you really trust Hollywierd?


IMHO, the pre-amps of many A/V receivers are far more advanced and more
sophisticated than the A/V pre-amps from the specialty high-end
manufacturers who probably have to contract out the A/V engineering for
their units because they can't afford to keep a really good A/V design
engineer on staff. Again, YMMV, of course.


-----------------------------------
As mentioned, the audio response in stereo, using the Carver preamp and
9000ES player, is great. However, IMO the audio from multi-channel SACDs
sounds like the high frequencies have been somewhat attenuated or rolled
off. So, I'm concluding that at least one of the components used for SACD
multi-channel - i.e., the CE775 player and the Onkyo receiver - isn't
performing as it should. Also, because I only have two full-range
speakers (Maggie 3.6R), I think I need some form of bass control,
although I have tried it with all controls switched to "pass-through."

Does anyone have suggestions for improving the multi-channel SACD audio
other than replacing everything with high-end, high-$$$ components? I'm
guessing that upgrading the multi-channel SACD player may be a good first
step, since I have read other reviews questioning the response of the
CE775.



Jim, I own the Sony CE775, the Sony C222ES, and the Sony C2000ES CD/SACD
players. Of these, the C2000ES is the latest, and it sounds
substantially different than the other two. It is brighter and it is
more transparent. Unfortunately, it sounds a little "rougher" in the
midrange than the other two, but for me with multichannel, its an
acceptable trade off.

They are out of production, but there is an outfit on eBay that
consistently offers grey market Canadian units for just under $300...and
at that price they are an absolute steal.

If I were you, I'd give one of them a try as your first option.

Thanks for the suggestion. - Did you also think the high frequency
response of your CE775 was attenuated or rolled off?

Not per se, Jim. But both the CE775 and the C222ES have a "dark" sound that
I always considered a "house sound" of Sony going back to their CD units of
the late '80's, until I experienced the C2000ES. Whatever caused this
"dark" sound also obscured some detail in the upper frequencies...in other
words, it is harder to "listen into" the sound, which causes them to sound
duller.

[Steven Sullivan]

Kalman Rubinson wrote:
On 29 Aug 2006 23:23:43 GMT, Steven Sullivan wrote:

The Oppo DV-97HD ($160) outputs DVD-A and SACD via HDMI, but the SACD output
apparently gets DSP in the player first (coverting it to multichannel)
, and it's unclear how many AVRs can process the HDMI 1.1 output.

It converts SACD to PCM whether it's multichannel or stereo.

Wel, what I meant is that I understand (from the Audioholics note) that
the Oppo has two settings for HDMI audio: 'Multichannel' and 'SPDIF', and
for SACD, it always sets itself to 'Multichannel' (there is no
output when set to SPDIF). 'Multichannel'
applies DSP, so SACD will certainly be converted to PCM first as
in all other consumer devices that apply any DSP to SACD beyond
bass management (mu understanding is that Denon devices, at least,
do BM in the DSD domain).

I suppose one could set the DSP parameters to be a neutral
as possible (eg., no delay, no BM, no gain or boost) in
hopes of altering the DSD--PCM signal as little as possible
before it goes to the AVR (where extensive DSP could be
applied).

I have an Oppo 97HD sitting a a box still packed next to me, i hope
to get around to trying its HDMI audio funtions out this weekend with a Pioneer
AVR.

___
-S
"As human beings, we understand the world through simile, analogy,
metaphor, narrative and, sometimes, claymation." - B. Mason

[Kalman Rubinson]

On 31 Aug 2006 23:38:58 GMT, Steven Sullivan wrote:

Wel, what I meant is that I understand (from the Audioholics note) that
the Oppo has two settings for HDMI audio: 'Multichannel' and 'SPDIF', and
for SACD, it always sets itself to 'Multichannel' (there is no
output when set to SPDIF).'Multichannel' applies DSP, so SACD will
certainly be converted to PCM first .......

The conversion from DSD to PCM requires DSP. It's how things get done
in digital audio.

.. as in all other consumer devices that apply any DSP to SACD beyond
bass management (mu understanding is that Denon devices, at least,
do BM in the DSD domain).

Nope. Time delay, but not BM.

I suppose one could set the DSP parameters to be a neutral
as possible (eg., no delay, no BM, no gain or boost) in
hopes of altering the DSD--PCM signal as little as possible
before it goes to the AVR (where extensive DSP could be
applied).

In the Oppo, it is converted regardless of what you choose, so why is
it an issue?

Kal

[Steven Sullivan]

Kalman Rubinson wrote:
On 31 Aug 2006 23:38:58 GMT, Steven Sullivan wrote:

Wel, what I meant is that I understand (from the Audioholics note) that
the Oppo has two settings for HDMI audio: 'Multichannel' and 'SPDIF', and
for SACD, it always sets itself to 'Multichannel' (there is no
output when set to SPDIF).'Multichannel' applies DSP, so SACD will
certainly be converted to PCM first .......

The conversion from DSD to PCM requires DSP. It's how things get done
in digital audio.

Not disputing that. The point is there does't seem to be a way to get
the Oppo to output DSD natively to an AVR that can decode it.

.. as in all other consumer devices that apply any DSP to SACD beyond
bass management (mu understanding is that Denon devices, at least,
do BM in the DSD domain).

Nope. Time delay, but not BM.

You sure about that? AIUI, time alignment requires DSD--PCM,
in the Denons and elsewhere.

I suppose one could set the DSP parameters to be a neutral
as possible (eg., no delay, no BM, no gain or boost) in
hopes of altering the DSD--PCM signal as little as possible
before it goes to the AVR (where extensive DSP could be
applied).

In the Oppo, it is converted regardless of what you choose, so why is
it an issue?

My piont was it needn't be, but apparently it is, if the review at
audioholics is to be believed.

___
-S
"As human beings, we understand the world through simile, analogy,
metaphor, narrative and, sometimes, claymation." - B. Mason