So what's this thing, a MM repackaged Sovtek KT88? Might buy a quad for the
pretty boxes.

Mark S wrote:

So what's this thing, a MM repackaged Sovtek KT88? Might buy a quad for the
pretty boxes.


The plate is recycled from the Sovtek 6550WE.

Of course, the plate is the *least* important part of a tube -
anything that can withstand 1100 Kelvin without warping
will work just fine, including a tunafish can. The stuff
*inside* the plate of the new Reflektor-produciton
Tung-Sol 6550 is *excellent*, however. This is a
*good* tube, with Gm in the correct range, and it
doesn't suffer from bias drift like the SED 6550C
all you audiophools seem to be so in love with. The
triple getter system is good, too, and will add considerable
service lifetime.

Botom line: Don't knock it until you've tried it. I have,
and it's excellent - at least, in musical instrument
amplification. Especially Leslies.

Lord Valve
Expert

François Yves Le Gal wrote:

On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 06:57:31 GMT, Lord Valve wrote:

it doesn't suffer from bias drift like the SED 6550C
all you audiophools seem to be so in love with.

Yeah, coming from a Certified ****tard™ who does happen to have majored in
bull****ting and who also happens to resell New Sensor products.

Why don't you jump back on this special needs tricycle of yours, the one
with the two added wheels for extra safety, and ride into oblivion,
****head?


Tell you what, froggy -

Prove I'm wrong. Otherwise, shove it up your snotty french ass.
BTW, I sell the SEDs, too. I don't give a **** which kind people
buy - I get paid either way. Figure it out, asswipe.

Lord Valve
Expert

"Lord Valve" wrote in message
...


Mark S wrote:

So what's this thing, a MM repackaged Sovtek KT88? Might buy a quad for
the
pretty boxes.


The plate is recycled from the Sovtek 6550WE.

Of course, the plate is the *least* important part of a tube -
anything that can withstand 1100 Kelvin without warping
will work just fine, including a tunafish can. The stuff
*inside* the plate of the new Reflektor-produciton
Tung-Sol 6550 is *excellent*, however. This is a
*good* tube, with Gm in the correct range, and it
doesn't suffer from bias drift like the SED 6550C
all you audiophools seem to be so in love with. The
triple getter system is good, too, and will add considerable
service lifetime.

Botom line: Don't knock it until you've tried it. I have,
and it's excellent - at least, in musical instrument
amplification. Especially Leslies.

Lord Valve
Expert

I guess I question the marketing. He has a well known & well regarded line
of tubes in EH, why spend money on the rights to the Tung Sol & Mullard
names, tooling up boxes ect. instead of just improving what he has? Or
producting a 7591 with the correct size envelope. I'll probably give a quad
a run anyway because, if nothing else, they're kool looking! ) By the way,
how are the RM oysters these days?

Mark S
Jack of all trades, master of none.

Lord Valve wrote:

François Yves Le Gal wrote:

On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 06:57:31 GMT, Lord Valve wrote:

it doesn't suffer from bias drift like the SED 6550C
all you audiophools seem to be so in love with.

Yeah, coming from a Certified ****tard™ who does happen to have majored in
bull****ting and who also happens to resell New Sensor products.

Why don't you jump back on this special needs tricycle of yours, the one
with the two added wheels for extra safety, and ride into oblivion,
****head?

Tell you what, froggy -

Prove I'm wrong. Otherwise, shove it up your snotty french ass.
BTW, I sell the SEDs, too. I don't give a **** which kind people
buy - I get paid either way. Figure it out, asswipe.

Lord Valve
Expert

I just got the trade catalog from New Sensor, and quite a bit about
how they test and match the tubes, to eliminate the duds,
and get matching to 1 mA accurate, and with gm .....
Mike Mathews is pictured at the keyboard of a very mouldy
old piano, and he has hired three sth american babes to do the
tube testing, 40 tubes at a time, all day everyday.

I doubt US - French diplomatic relations will
improve much if things get poked where you want to poke them,
but we live in hope that a declaration of peace
be at least drawn up and laid ready for signature soon.

Patrick Turner.

I just got the trade catalog from New Sensor, and quite a bit about
how they test and match the tubes, to eliminate the duds,
and get matching to 1 mA accurate, and with gm .....
Mike Mathews is pictured at the keyboard of a very mouldy
old piano, and he has hired three sth american babes to do the
tube testing, 40 tubes at a time, all day everyday.

Dear Patrick !
I just hope that you can imagine these 3 gals operating 9,600 watts
six trays / 40 tubes each "machine" described in a catalogue. Also,
note - there is no photo of "machine", just ugly cad drawing.
About power tubes matching - who needs 1mA tolerance ? And
who will swear that a pair of tubes will be within 1mA after say
half of a year period ? In my opinion, method described in NS
catalogue must be very expensive. Looking at prices one can
think that they are getting tubes from manufacurers for free..
But if they managed to do it as described - my congradulations
to NS folks !
But in any case Tung Sol KT66 ??!! sounds strange for my ears..
Best wishes,

--
Igor
http://www.arrakis.es/~igapop

iga wrote:

I just got the trade catalog from New Sensor, and quite a bit about
how they test and match the tubes, to eliminate the duds,
and get matching to 1 mA accurate, and with gm .....
Mike Mathews is pictured at the keyboard of a very mouldy
old piano, and he has hired three sth american babes to do the
tube testing, 40 tubes at a time, all day everyday.

Dear Patrick !
I just hope that you can imagine these 3 gals operating 9,600 watts
six trays / 40 tubes each "machine" described in a catalogue. Also,
note - there is no photo of "machine", just ugly cad drawing.
About power tubes matching - who needs 1mA tolerance ? And
who will swear that a pair of tubes will be within 1mA after say
half of a year period ? In my opinion, method described in NS
catalogue must be very expensive. Looking at prices one can
think that they are getting tubes from manufacurers for free..
But if they managed to do it as described - my congradulations
to NS folks !
But in any case Tung Sol KT66 ??!! sounds strange for my ears..
Best wishes,

--
Igor
http://www.arrakis.es/~igapop

Well, you can be as sceptical as you like, and sure, the pics of the
testing apparatus look a bit
inaccurate and animated, and pics of the gals make them look
sexier than they probably really are, and a its all a bit frivolous, but
then Mike Mathews isn't
going to show everyone his trade secrets, now is he?
And if you can't understand the tech, then you can drool over tha gals.
So he departs from the sombre and dull reporting style of 1959,
and just carries on with the modern approach, keep em smiling,
and let the tiny minority of customers who
are tech heads like myself just keep guessing..

I have had good service from the New Sensor empire.
If somebody wants my trade they gotta do it better and cheaper......

And methinks a pair of tubes matched for 1mA difference for the same
applied
g1 bias will drift less than a pair matched for 5 mA.

Then there is gm, and matching for the same gm *and* the same bias
current for the same
g1 voltage would mean you have to get 2 parameters about a tube to match,

rather than only 1.

What happens to all the tubes which don't match any other?
Well maybe there are not many, and those that cannot be matched fall
outside the spec and are binned.

All tubes still drift apart as they age, and an octet matched janGE6550A
I had in an amp
for 5 years sure got a bit different, with +/- 6 v difference in bias
needed
for the same Ia at idle.
This is not a problem if you have a sensibly designed amp with separate
fixed
bias adjust pots for each tube, or if you have cathode bias for each
tube.
Doing it any other way is poor engineering imho, and
if the best of NOS will drift so wildly as the NOS GE tubes I bought
then we have to expect the russian tubes will also drift a fair bit.

The info in the catalog provokes me to ask more questions.

I'd like to see the close up pics of the tubes as they are made,
in particular, I'd like to see the cathode metal etching process,
and the way they apply the cathode emissive material, and you'd expect to
se
some plate curves to assist the designer.

New Sensor is rather parsimonious about providing such information,
and my guess is that they are not going to change because
providing tubes is serious business, but nevertheless a fun thing, and
most ppl who buy their tubes
for replacements in guitar amps couldn't care less about
the plate curves.
NS probably think they have the quality
control well enough worked out, because so few tubes are returned due to
failure due to poor russian workmanship, ( or workwomanship, more likely
).
If you want any data, find out about it by doing your own in house
testing.
I do my own tests, and I bet Audio Research and Conrad Johnson do their
own to.
Nevertheless, when I emailed NS this week for KT90 curves, they offered
to send me a copy
by fax, which seems strange because email would be more convenient, and I
don't have a fax.
They are entitled to do that, so i will arrange for someone to receive
their faxed data curves.

I find that sovtek KT88, 6550EH KT88EH are exactly the same
electronically
and the internal construction looks exactly the same,
so it seems some rationalisation has gone on for marketing reaons.
6550 and KT88 were once different tubes from different companies,
but were made to be interchangable in 90% of amplifiers.
OK, if that's the case why have two different tubes?
Make em all the same, and just print different numbers on the glass,
and everyone still gets a nice tube.
When I tested these tubes for gM, Ra, and u, the few samples I chose were
virtually
identical.
I kinda don't feel like complaining because its remarkable we have any
tubes being made today; they nearly became extinct!
New Sensor would be aware that if they cheapen up the manufacturing
process too much the chinese would be delighted.
Maybe the chinese will eventually gain a better reputation for quality
than the
russians but it will take some doing on the part of the chinese,
who I feel have some way to go before they consistently outsmart the
russians,
especially the real Svetlana brand, by making longer lasting tubes with
close specs which sound better.
There are more chinese than russians, and china is growing at a 4% rate
and industry is booming,
and methinks its only a matter of time before the new generation pay more
than lip service to
buyers of tubes, and really make sure quality is adhered to,
and learn to understand westerners, and address us in terms better than
strangled 'Chininglish', which nobody takes seriously.
The penny has yet to really drop with the chinese.


So far, so good with New Sensor; I have not had many lemon tubes from
them.
Don't ask me if the quality of the new Tungsol is any better than
a similarly shaped sovtek KT88.
I really don't know, and don't ask me if the new Mullards have anthing
different
to the cheaper old sovtek EL34wxt, except for the better looking
larger glass envelope like the original EL34.

The price of KT90EH has sagged since it was released last year, and is
slightly less than KT88EH, so to me it represents good value, if not top
value.
But KT90 isn't specified for use in as many amps as KT88 or 6550,
so maybe there isn't the demand, so the tube just can't sell in large
numbers.
But the KT90 can work into a lower RLa-a than KT88, thus producing more
power,
and it has about 30% higher anode dissipation, lower Ra, and it makes a
very nice
triode, and you'd think ppl would have demanded more of them,
since its basic benefit is greater current ability, which translates to
a perhaps better sonic signature, even in a largely class A UL hi-fi amp,

where they never get asked to make more than a few watts
of all class A most of the time.
Afaik, the KT90EH is a better KT90
than the Ei KT90 from yugo, and also afaik, the yugo factory isn't
making any tubes....
6CA7EH are also a tube not as commonly used as the EL34, well,
here in Oz this is the case, and if anything, this tube is like a poor
man's 6550, rather more rugged and perhaps better than the EL34 than it
is equivalant to.
So it is also good value.


There are at least several more newly made russian tube types being
supplied by NS which were not being made last year.
This is good news for those who want only NOS from the
pre 1985 days, because some ppl will now buy the newly mades
instead of the precious and irreplaceable NOS.

Patrick Turner.

Patrick Turner said:

What happens to all the tubes which don't match any other?
Well maybe there are not many, and those that cannot be matched fall
outside the spec and are binned.

They're sold to guitar players. ;-)

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

Hi Patrick !
Sure NS made a lot for tube comunity and the fact that
they "now have virtually zero defects for returns" says a
lot too. I just don't understand all that jazz with old brand
names as Mullard or TungSol etc..
Ah, and I'm dying for just to see as these gals turn "ON"
this rig with 240 x 6550s !
Best wishes,
Igor
http://www.arrakis.es/~igapop

"Patrick Turner" escribió en el mensaje
...


iga wrote:

I just got the trade catalog from New Sensor, and quite a bit about
how they test and match the tubes, to eliminate the duds,
and get matching to 1 mA accurate, and with gm .....
Mike Mathews is pictured at the keyboard of a very mouldy
old piano, and he has hired three sth american babes to do the
tube testing, 40 tubes at a time, all day everyday.

Dear Patrick !
I just hope that you can imagine these 3 gals operating 9,600 watts
six trays / 40 tubes each "machine" described in a catalogue. Also,
note - there is no photo of "machine", just ugly cad drawing.
About power tubes matching - who needs 1mA tolerance ? And
who will swear that a pair of tubes will be within 1mA after say
half of a year period ? In my opinion, method described in NS
catalogue must be very expensive. Looking at prices one can
think that they are getting tubes from manufacurers for free..
But if they managed to do it as described - my congradulations
to NS folks !
But in any case Tung Sol KT66 ??!! sounds strange for my ears..
Best wishes,

--
Igor
http://www.arrakis.es/~igapop

Well, you can be as sceptical as you like, and sure, the pics of the
testing apparatus look a bit
inaccurate and animated, and pics of the gals make them look
sexier than they probably really are, and a its all a bit frivolous, but
then Mike Mathews isn't
going to show everyone his trade secrets, now is he?
And if you can't understand the tech, then you can drool over tha gals.
So he departs from the sombre and dull reporting style of 1959,
and just carries on with the modern approach, keep em smiling,
and let the tiny minority of customers who
are tech heads like myself just keep guessing..

I have had good service from the New Sensor empire.
If somebody wants my trade they gotta do it better and cheaper......

And methinks a pair of tubes matched for 1mA difference for the same
applied
g1 bias will drift less than a pair matched for 5 mA.

Then there is gm, and matching for the same gm *and* the same bias
current for the same
g1 voltage would mean you have to get 2 parameters about a tube to match,

rather than only 1.

What happens to all the tubes which don't match any other?
Well maybe there are not many, and those that cannot be matched fall
outside the spec and are binned.

All tubes still drift apart as they age, and an octet matched janGE6550A
I had in an amp
for 5 years sure got a bit different, with +/- 6 v difference in bias
needed
for the same Ia at idle.
This is not a problem if you have a sensibly designed amp with separate
fixed
bias adjust pots for each tube, or if you have cathode bias for each
tube.
Doing it any other way is poor engineering imho, and
if the best of NOS will drift so wildly as the NOS GE tubes I bought
then we have to expect the russian tubes will also drift a fair bit.

The info in the catalog provokes me to ask more questions.

I'd like to see the close up pics of the tubes as they are made,
in particular, I'd like to see the cathode metal etching process,
and the way they apply the cathode emissive material, and you'd expect to
se
some plate curves to assist the designer.

New Sensor is rather parsimonious about providing such information,
and my guess is that they are not going to change because
providing tubes is serious business, but nevertheless a fun thing, and
most ppl who buy their tubes
for replacements in guitar amps couldn't care less about
the plate curves.
NS probably think they have the quality
control well enough worked out, because so few tubes are returned due to
failure due to poor russian workmanship, ( or workwomanship, more likely
).
If you want any data, find out about it by doing your own in house
testing.
I do my own tests, and I bet Audio Research and Conrad Johnson do their
own to.
Nevertheless, when I emailed NS this week for KT90 curves, they offered
to send me a copy
by fax, which seems strange because email would be more convenient, and I
don't have a fax.
They are entitled to do that, so i will arrange for someone to receive
their faxed data curves.

I find that sovtek KT88, 6550EH KT88EH are exactly the same
electronically
and the internal construction looks exactly the same,
so it seems some rationalisation has gone on for marketing reaons.
6550 and KT88 were once different tubes from different companies,
but were made to be interchangable in 90% of amplifiers.
OK, if that's the case why have two different tubes?
Make em all the same, and just print different numbers on the glass,
and everyone still gets a nice tube.
When I tested these tubes for gM, Ra, and u, the few samples I chose were
virtually
identical.
I kinda don't feel like complaining because its remarkable we have any
tubes being made today; they nearly became extinct!
New Sensor would be aware that if they cheapen up the manufacturing
process too much the chinese would be delighted.
Maybe the chinese will eventually gain a better reputation for quality
than the
russians but it will take some doing on the part of the chinese,
who I feel have some way to go before they consistently outsmart the
russians,
especially the real Svetlana brand, by making longer lasting tubes with
close specs which sound better.
There are more chinese than russians, and china is growing at a 4% rate
and industry is booming,
and methinks its only a matter of time before the new generation pay more
than lip service to
buyers of tubes, and really make sure quality is adhered to,
and learn to understand westerners, and address us in terms better than
strangled 'Chininglish', which nobody takes seriously.
The penny has yet to really drop with the chinese.


So far, so good with New Sensor; I have not had many lemon tubes from
them.
Don't ask me if the quality of the new Tungsol is any better than
a similarly shaped sovtek KT88.
I really don't know, and don't ask me if the new Mullards have anthing
different
to the cheaper old sovtek EL34wxt, except for the better looking
larger glass envelope like the original EL34.

The price of KT90EH has sagged since it was released last year, and is
slightly less than KT88EH, so to me it represents good value, if not top
value.
But KT90 isn't specified for use in as many amps as KT88 or 6550,
so maybe there isn't the demand, so the tube just can't sell in large
numbers.
But the KT90 can work into a lower RLa-a than KT88, thus producing more
power,
and it has about 30% higher anode dissipation, lower Ra, and it makes a
very nice
triode, and you'd think ppl would have demanded more of them,
since its basic benefit is greater current ability, which translates to
a perhaps better sonic signature, even in a largely class A UL hi-fi amp,

where they never get asked to make more than a few watts
of all class A most of the time.
Afaik, the KT90EH is a better KT90
than the Ei KT90 from yugo, and also afaik, the yugo factory isn't
making any tubes....
6CA7EH are also a tube not as commonly used as the EL34, well,
here in Oz this is the case, and if anything, this tube is like a poor
man's 6550, rather more rugged and perhaps better than the EL34 than it
is equivalant to.
So it is also good value.


There are at least several more newly made russian tube types being
supplied by NS which were not being made last year.
This is good news for those who want only NOS from the
pre 1985 days, because some ppl will now buy the newly mades
instead of the precious and irreplaceable NOS.

Patrick Turner.

iga wrote:

Hi Patrick !
Sure NS made a lot for tube comunity and the fact that
they "now have virtually zero defects for returns" says a
lot too. I just don't understand all that jazz with old brand
names as Mullard or TungSol etc..

Its marketing.

Don't let it worry you. As long as the tubes do the business,
who cares what the antics of the business owner are.




Ah, and I'm dying for just to see as these gals turn "ON"
this rig with 240 x 6550s !

To get 50 watts to each tube, you need to supply 12,000 watts.
It sounds like a lot but that's only the equivalent of
my domestic hot water system plus a couple ot 2kW room heaters being on.
The costs of power are negligible when compared to wages.
They would be selling quite a few bottles....

The number appears to be increasing......

Patrick Turner.


Best wishes,
Igor
http://www.arrakis.es/~igapop

"Patrick Turner" escribió en el mensaje
...


iga wrote:

I just got the trade catalog from New Sensor, and quite a bit about
how they test and match the tubes, to eliminate the duds,
and get matching to 1 mA accurate, and with gm .....
Mike Mathews is pictured at the keyboard of a very mouldy
old piano, and he has hired three sth american babes to do the
tube testing, 40 tubes at a time, all day everyday.
............

On Sat, 09 Apr 2005 13:10:45 +0200, iga wrote:


I just got the trade catalog from New Sensor, and quite a bit about how
they test and match the tubes, to eliminate the duds, and get matching
to 1 mA accurate, and with gm ..... Mike Mathews is pictured at the
keyboard of a very mouldy old piano, and he has hired three sth american
babes to do the tube testing, 40 tubes at a time, all day everyday.

Dear Patrick !
I just hope that you can imagine these 3 gals operating 9,600 watts six
trays / 40 tubes each "machine" described in a catalogue. Also, note -
there is no photo of "machine", just ugly cad drawing. About power tubes
matching - who needs 1mA tolerance ?


Igor:

He visto la maquina en el edificio de New Sensor, esa si existe.
Tuve que ir en el tren antiguo de linea 7 y pedir direcciones
en el espanol para encontrar su edificio.

Esas chicas son modelas, de verdad, los que operaron la maquina
son ruquitos dominicanos y puertoriquenos. Creo que las
chicas son concubinas de Sr. Matthews.

About power tubes
matching - who needs 1mA tolerance ? And who will swear that a pair of
tubes will be within 1mA after say half of a year period ?

Nadie. El unico modo para garantizar que los tubos prueban
iguales en todos condiciones es hacer una "curva rastra",
pero de todos modos hay que "tolerancia" de cualquier
porcentaje, o casi ningun va a salir igual.

Pero, casi los peores de los tubos salen mas igual que los
transistores! Debes medir una bolsa de transistores, el
"beta gain" tipicamente sale como -80 +200% o peor!

In my opinion,
method described in NS catalogue must be very expensive.

No sea muy caro. Un ruquito mantiene una maquina que prueba
cienes de tubos.

Muchas gracias de su ayuda, le debo por lo menos una botella
o algo.

Tengo ganas de rastrar mi esposa a una vacacion, como hace
el tiempo en Bilbao?

--
Ned Carlson Triode Electronics Chicago,IL USA
www.triodeelectronics.com

Euzkadi es una de las regiones más agradables de Europa. Bilbao es una
ciudad industrial, muy interesante, pero no una ciudad de vacaciones.


Nope !
Asi era hace 15 años. Ahora no hay industria practicamente, han serrado
practicamente todo. Desde que han construido Guggenheim, Euscalduna
Palace and now Bilbao Exibition Centre - la ciudad esta llena de turistas
( ingleses e alemanes principalmente, pero hay muchos franseses tambien )
Y en terminos de turismo rural Pais Vasco es insuperable.
Un saludo,

--
Igor
http://www.arrakis.es/~igapop

Hola Ned !
Muchas gracias por la informacion !
Lo del tiempo en Bilbao - nunca se sabe. Esta serca del
mar y el tiempo se cambia en cuestion de horas. Ahora mismo
son 15ºC, sol y un poco de viento... Pero para uno de Chicago
el viento no es nada nuevo, no ?
Bueno, espero que nos veremos en Bilbao.
Un saludo,

--
Igor
http://www.arrakis.es/~igapop

"Ned Carlson" escribió en el mensaje
news
On Sat, 09 Apr 2005 13:10:45 +0200, iga wrote:



Igor:

He visto la maquina en el edificio de New Sensor, esa si existe.
Tuve que ir en el tren antiguo de linea 7 y pedir direcciones
en el espanol para encontrar su edificio.

Esas chicas son modelas, de verdad, los que operaron la maquina
son ruquitos dominicanos y puertoriquenos. Creo que las
chicas son concubinas de Sr. Matthews.

About power tubes
matching - who needs 1mA tolerance ? And who will swear that a pair of
tubes will be within 1mA after say half of a year period ?

Nadie. El unico modo para garantizar que los tubos prueban
iguales en todos condiciones es hacer una "curva rastra",
pero de todos modos hay que "tolerancia" de cualquier
porcentaje, o casi ningun va a salir igual.

Pero, casi los peores de los tubos salen mas igual que los
transistores! Debes medir una bolsa de transistores, el
"beta gain" tipicamente sale como -80 +200% o peor!

In my opinion,
method described in NS catalogue must be very expensive.

No sea muy caro. Un ruquito mantiene una maquina que prueba
cienes de tubos.

Muchas gracias de su ayuda, le debo por lo menos una botella
o algo.

Tengo ganas de rastrar mi esposa a una vacacion, como hace
el tiempo en Bilbao?

--
Ned Carlson Triode Electronics Chicago,IL USA
www.triodeelectronics.com

"François Yves Le Gal" escribió en el mensaje
...
On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:00:47 +0200, "iga" wrote:

Asi era hace 15 años. Ahora no hay industria practicamente, han serrado
practicamente todo.

Hmmm, no diría eso. Si los muchos de industrias se han cerrado, Bilbao es
más como Liverpool o cualquier ciudad industrial europea.

Man ! Hace 15 años habia cantidad de fabricas funcionando dentro
de la ciudad, el paseo maritimo no existia y la ria tenia color verde
"electric" y olia fatal. Los altos hornos estaban ahi todavia.. Como ya
te he dicho todo esta serrado. Estan a punto de serrar los ultimos
astilleros ( estan sin trabajo desde hace años - todos los barcos se
hacen en Korea ahora ).
La idea fue convertir Bilbao a una ciudad de servicio. De momento
funcciona.


la ciudad esta llena de turistas

Vienen para un par de días, no por una semana o más.

Que tiene esto de malo ? Cuando voy a Paris - voy para
2 - 3 dias, no mas.

Y en terminos de turismo rural Pais Vasco es insuperable.

Convenido. Tierra, mar, montañas, cultura, historia. Euzkadi es un lugar
maravilloso a las vacaciones o vive.

Paso algunos meses cada año en Bidarte, norte del Bidassoa.
:-)

Un saludo,

--
Igor
http://www.arrakis.es/~igapop