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#241
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On Wednesday 01 June 2005 13:01, Bob Cain
) wrote: There's just not typically going to be an eye candy installer for freeware/shareware type applications. Nonetheless, for people for whom time is money and others who consider an operating system to be something that is just a necessasary nuisance Nonetheless, people for whom time is money can spend their money on proprietary operating or on support for free operating systems or neither. Paying for something doesn't make the money well spent, just as not paying for something doesn't mean it's ultimately free of charge. As far as free applications I've been watching this movement Unlikely, considering your comment above. |
#242
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1 On Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:29:07 +1200, Geoff Wood wrote: "Jim Richardson" wrote in message news:flf0n2- How about an office suite? the browser? your newsreader? did they come from sony with that one click also? can you upgrade them all, with one click? like I can? Yes. So when you upgrade yoru system, with that one click you mention, it upgrades the browser, OE, your DAW stuff, and any and everything else on the machine? Really? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFCnh+6d90bcYOAWPYRAnb0AJ4qNBN8kPa/SghIJuMvoWSSiIYJbQCghoPP UC23av10k0ExEnsnnzBjQbo= =u/JN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock Silence is one of the most effective forms of communication. |
#243
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* Geoff Wood Wrote in rec.audio.pro:
"JEDIDIAH" wrote in message apt-get install ardour* It doesn't get any more "one step than that". That's typing 22 characters. Instead of a double-click and possibly a single OK click or two. geoff OK, so go through the K menu and select Install Software. There is your 2 clicks. You still had to go find the site, register on the website, clean your email account of the 5 pieces of spam the registration triggered and reboot twice. -- David |
#244
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1 On 1 Jun 2005 13:07:29 -0400, Mike Rivers wrote: In article ?= writes: A good portion of Linux and its admin applications are based on existing functionality in UNIX, so the need for design was much less. Existing design was used to some extent. Apart from that, your impression has to be wrong. Why? Because, without design and sound decisions (for the most part), Linux would have been a house of cards that would have folded long ago. It may not be a house of cards, but it's a house that's never finished. The reason why it hasn't fallen is because there are so many contractors who like their work. So you are saying that MS-Windows was written by people who hated their work, and it's finished now? So there'll be no upgrades, no new stuff for MS-Windows? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFCniDsd90bcYOAWPYRAibcAKDHScJiusZIF7Se90TFdN kzsc7q0QCcDm5J 6c6enVOmtIMu/1xdGMYrvy8= =ZsAN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock "If you choke a smurf, what color does it turn?" |
#245
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* Sammy Wrote in rec.audio.pro:
'emerge ardour' Yea and why don't you tell them about the week you spent installing Gentoo? I didn't even have the thing or its dependancies on my system. A little while later my system had downloaded, compiled, and installed everything I needed and I was in business. This was on a 64 bit system even. Sure, and this is what you had to go through to install gentoo Linux: Fine, how about: urpmi ardour And the MDK install took all of 1/2 hour and no reboots. -- David |
#246
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Bob Cain wrote: Geoff Wood wrote: "Scott Dorsey" wrote in message Things like disk defragmentation are an excellent example of the annoyances that Windows users have to put up with, that people in the rest of the world don't really have to worry about. The very occasion defrag (always when not otherwise in use) has never been a problem , imposition, or even incovenience to me. And never a necessity. It merely enhances performance by making files contiguous on the drive. You sure about that? |
#247
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But you're making a stupid point anyway. The real point is that a simple process kicks off an install in both cases. Yes, they have gotten quite silly with their method of argument. Nitpicking over the amount of characters that have to be typed and/or mouse clicks clicked is pretty damn rediqulous and indicates the mentality that these arguments are comming from...in other words it no longer has ANYTHING to do with anything of any purpose but just closed minds desperately clinging to their very limited world view. |
#248
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On Wednesday 01 June 2005 14:40, Linønut
) wrote: Geoff Wood poked his little head through the XP firewall and said: apt-get install ardour* It doesn't get any more "one step than that". Instead of a double-click and possibly a single OK click or two. You're leaving off the navigation, mouse movement, and waiting for a GUI to load and draw itself. You're leaving off running Synaptic, although it probably takes eight or ten clicks to install an application. But you're making a stupid point anyway. The real point is that a simple process kicks off an install in both cases. Counting even a dozen mouse clicks versus twenty-two characters is a stupid comparison of operating systems. I just thought I'd add to the frivolity. |
#249
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#252
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On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 13:07:26 -0400, Mike Rivers wrote:
I guess, but while you and I can't get at it, I'd like to think that all the necessary documentation for Windows resolves somewhere within Microsoft, not here and there on a few hundred web sites. I'd like to think the US government has our best interests at heart, but I don't have very much faith that that is the case. If there's any human being I trust less than GWB, it's Bill Gates. |
#253
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On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 13:07:27 -0400, Mike Rivers wrote:
What happened to the "Built on NT Technology" that was supposed to be a version ready for enterprise application? I guess it wasn't simple enough for the common man. I think the real problem was that it wasn't robust enough for enterprise duty. |
#254
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In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Geoff Wood
wrote on Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:04:38 +1200 : "JEDIDIAH" wrote in message apt-get install ardour* It doesn't get any more "one step than that". That's typing 22 characters. Instead of a double-click and possibly a single OK click or two. geoff I wonder about this metric. Granted, it has the virtue of simplicity for the complete newbie, but there are several issues regarding time for the seasoned professional. [1] In X, at least, a mouse move generates far more events than a keypress. Basically, a window, if it's interested, will get such things as FocusIn and FocusOut events, MouseMotion events, and two ButtonPresses. (The MouseMotion events are probably not that interesting to Nautilus but I'd have to look; it would only be interesting during a *drag*, which is not a discussion issue at this moment.) Contrast that to a down-up stroke, which generates, as one might expect, a KeyDown and a KeyUp. In a pinch, the KeyUp is ignored (different implementations of X quibble on this when the key is held down and starts autorepeating, which is also not a discussion issue at this moment). Of course this is also not all that good a metric, as people are rarely monitoring streams of MouseMovement events directly. However, those using X remotely (ssh -X) may notice. I think Windows has a similar issue, though I would have to study it. [2] A touch typist likes to keep his hands above the "home keys": "ASDF" on the left, "JKL;" on the right. While one can make nasty noises about the original purpose of the QWERTY keyboard (in very olden times the keys tended to jam; therefore the intent was to make the touch typist type as slowly as possible :-) ) it's what many of us are trained on. The only competing technology -- if one can call it that -- is the DVORAK keyboard. (I don't have comparison speeds handy for the two.) Either way, of course, the hands don't move much -- *until one has to pick up the entire hand and move it over to the mouse*. This is a pain, and slows a typist down; he has to locate the mouse, move it, possibly click on a button, then locate the home keys again on the hand that was using the mouse.[*] For its part Windows does allow usage of the ALT key. This key allows for selection of menus without having to use the wired soapbar -- though it could be more consistent. (It could be a lot more consistent in Linux, too.) [3] Mice are a pain, compared to trackballs. Trackballs do suffer from the lifting of the hand but with trackballs one doesn't have to lift the entire mouse as well in order to move the cursor, if it gets to the end of its "roamspace" (usually a mousepad with some sort of image the user likes). I'm not that good of a gamester but trackballs are a lot easier to aim when one's trying to dodge the stream of enemy fire in Unreal 2004... :-) I'll admit I'm not sure where 'apt-get' would be documented in a Debian distro (I tend to use 'dselect' myself, which is a key/menu-driven CLI/curses affair). But once learned, it's a bit like double-clicking. Need to install a package? Just $ su # apt-get install ardour .... # CTRL/D # As far as I can tell, it's a learned behavior, much like "double-click" on an icon. Of course, I'm slightly biased. I don't know if it's around on the Web anywhere but at one point one of the more amusing Amiga demos (which would correspond roughly with Macromedia Flash today) was titled "V.A.U.X. Killer Demo". The end of the demo was triggered by a double-click on a window containing an old-style explosives trigger a la Wile E. Coyote... :-) There is a good side to GUIs. They tend to be self-documenting; if one sees a pulldown menu one automatically makes the assumption that it's showing some functionality that is available. (One might also make the rather naive assumption that it's showing *all* of the functionality available.) Windows (and KDE and Gnome and Motif) also document their shortcuts in the menu itself -- a notion that probably predated the Amiga, in fact; I suspect Apple's Finder had Option Key shortcuts way back when. But it's highly naive to think that double-clicking is easier than typing. Such, presumably, depends on the user. [*] The Amiga had an interesting capability, which might have existed on other systems. One can press and hold down the left and right Amiga keys, and the main pointer would be movable via the arrow keys. It was slightly clumsy but very helpful for those who didn't have a mouse handy. -- #191, It's still legal to go .sigless. |
#256
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In article ,
"Geoff Wood" wrote: "JEDIDIAH" wrote in message ... On 2005-06-01, Geoff Wood wrote: "Jim Richardson" wrote in message news:flf0n2- How about an office suite? the browser? your newsreader? did they come from sony with that one click also? can you upgrade them all, with one click? like I can? Yes. Do tell. What facility under Windows allows you to upgrade all classes of applications, as well as the underlying OS with just one command or button click. This should be interesting. Most users prefer a little more control and knowledge about exact what is being altered in their boxes. So first you say it can be done, but when called on that, you say that people wouldn't want to do it? -- --Tim Smith |
#257
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#258
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#259
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#261
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#262
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#263
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In article znr1117646721k@trad, (Mike Rivers)
wrote: Ok, lets see just how much credibility you have and how soon you will start attacking fellow workers in the industry just to debase an OS you know nothing about... http://www.multitrack.us/ And the start of an e-book written by them: http://209.134.141.117/jam/book1.htm How is this answering my question? Why should I have to read a book? I just asked you to name a couple of Linux audio workstation applications that are used professionally. Is that so difficult? Perhaps if you'd actually click the first link, you'd see how it answers your question? -- --Tim Smith |
#264
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In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Digi
wrote on Tue, 31 May 2005 18:40:04 -0700 : Sammy writes: snip Just for the record, he was asked how to install ardour. He posted 'emerge ardour' which for gentoo is the way to do it. What he forgot to mention was that gentoo takes days to install and set up and requires a lot of the user to maintain. IOW he was misleading people who don't realize that. Gentoo is NOT a distribution the average person should try. So, even on what is considered to be the most time-intensive distribution, installing a new package takes only a single short command line. Yep, that just goes and condemns the Linux operating system for me. I'll just go on back to Windows, because their package manager handles all the applications installed without a problem... oh wait. Digi And remember, it's *Windows*, the most widely known screen of death (any color one likes) today. Join now and get an extra bonus virus! :-) Personally, I like Gentoo but I do have to agree with Sammy; one should at least have a working knowledge of how to install another distro before trying it "cold", and by all means read the Handbook carefully. I wouldn't call it difficult but it isn't "click and go", either; one might liken it to the difference between a throwaway camera and a high-quality Single-Lens-Reflex unit (that one builds oneself, but then analogies are always suspect :-) ). http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/index.xml I don't know about it taking "days", though. A Stage Three probably takes at most a few hours, if that, though it highly depends on what one installs. I prefer Stage One installs but they take a lot longer, as the system has to compile almost everything from scratch. However, they're also far more configurable. -- #191, It's still legal to go .sigless. |
#265
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Mike Rivers wrote:
And what does your studio client do while you're searching on line for support? After he's had dinner? And the musicians he's hired for the session have other gigs to go to? I don't know, what does your client do when you are on hold waiting for help? While studio work isn't mission critical - nobody's going to die when your system crashes and you can't get it back up immediately - but it's darn inconvenient, and often resulsts in some financial losses that you'll have to make up to the client somehow. So? You haven't yet shown that Linux audio systems need more tech support or that tech support is less available for them. I follow the same procedure when working out problems in Windows, which I frequently have to write programs in as part of my job. But the point of this discussion isn't about troubleshooting the operating system - that should have been done long ago. It's about troubleshooting the application. That statement is based on what I believe to be a false premise: That Linux audio applications are unstable and need extra troubleshooting. In my experience most don't need troubleshooting. |
#266
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Mike Rivers wrote:
In article writes: www.dynebolic.org that distro not only kicks arse as a multimedia workstation, it also self-clusters What does that mean? Something good, or are you being sarcastic? Well if he is using the term in the standard fashion it means that you can use it to make several computers act like one. |
#267
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JEDIDIAH wrote:
it would be nice for these alleged muscians and engineers to actually articulate for the rest of us what is special about the Win32 commercial offerings relative to their Linux counterparts. They obviously don't know. |
#268
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Sammy wrote:
On Tue, 31 May 2005 14:01:09 -0700, Noah Roberts wrote: Sammy wrote: On Tue, 31 May 2005 12:53:47 -0700, Noah Roberts wrote: Yes, Gentoo is a distribution meant for non-newbies that wish to go totally custom. It is probably the hardest and most consuming install of any Linux distribution. You need to know a lot to get to the point So then don't try and mislead people who don't know any better. Heh, bugger off looser. I ain't misleading anyone. On an already installed system that is exactly what is done. The installation procedure of operating systems has not been the debate here. It also has absolutely no importance to wether or not Ardour and its friends are a good setup for DAW. Notice how the Linux zealot reacts when confronted with the facts. No, this is how someone reacts when someone tries to smokescreen. Just for the record, he was asked how to install ardour. He posted 'emerge ardour' which for gentoo is the way to do it. Correct. What he forgot to mention was that gentoo takes days to install and set up and requires a lot of the user to maintain. Incorrect. Not only was it not forgotten but you are wrong about the rest also. IOW he was misleading people who don't realize that. Gentoo is NOT a distribution the average person should try. Not the distribution for a *newbie* to try. The *average* person should be fully capable of using Gentoo once they become familiar with Linux in general. In fact, they might even manage to use it if they can just read and follow directions...you seem to be missing that first ability at the least. I have mentioned the facts about Gentoo at least 3 times in this very thread and said it many many posts before you claimed I was trying to mislead people by ommiting it. In fact, I'll just quote a very early post by me in this thread: "Then of course you have Gentoo, which is not an audio distro but makes creating a DAW very easy once you get past the install, which admitedly takes some knowledge. It is a custom, almost DIY distro for non-newbies." **** if that doesn't answer exactly this situation and EXACTLY what I said this whole ****ing time!! If you are going to jump into a thread with your nonsense try to read some of it first so you don't look like a complete ass when you point fingers at people and call them names. L! If you are happy in windows that is fine. Other people are not. Linux can be, and is, used for digital audio work. It does a fine job of it. If you are satisfied that's great, but you'll never convince me to move over from Samplitude 7 Oh good. Catering to morons will ruin Linux. They just bring everything down to the lowest common denominator. |
#269
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Tim Smith wrote:
Perhaps if you'd actually click the first link, you'd see how it answers your question? Well, since he clipped out the question and changed it I don't think the answer applies any longer. === Befo I know it is used by pro studios. Can you name one? Or two? Let us in rec.audio.pro judge how "pro" they are. = Now: I just asked you to name a couple of Linux audio workstation applications that are used professionally. === Then again, they do mention a few applications that they use so I guess the answer still applies even with the lowball tactics of the questioner. |
#270
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Mike Rivers wrote:
In article .com writes: Can you name one? Or two? Let us in rec.audio.pro judge how "pro" they are. So you can play the, "Not a real Scotsman," game? What's that? A: Scotsmen never scratch their sacks. B: McHenry is a Scotsman and he scratches his sack. A: Well, McHenry isn't a REAL Scotsman. |
#271
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Geoff Wood wrote:
Most users prefer a little more control and knowledge about exact what is being altered in their boxes. That is rich. Tell me what registry alterations occurred in your last install shield install then. And do you really think users wouldn't like a button that said, "Upgrade everything," on their computer? Well, I guess that is an opinion. On the other hand, I have extensive experience with users and have to say I think you are quite wrong. In fact I bet they would prefer it didn't even ask so long as it never broke anything. |
#272
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Let me fix context for you...
There are plenty of people patching Unix for security so there are plenty of people who have the knowledge to create and exploit security holes. It's no fun to screw up the system of a fellow hobbyist. It's only fun to screw up the system of a major corporation or an innocent and clueless user. By that reasoning, then, there shouldn't be many Windows exploits, and tons of Linux exploits. Yet the situation is diametrically opposite. How comes that? Because hobbyists don't malicisously screw each other They might another's help some day. I guess you don't realize just how many servers on the Internet are Linux then. I do. This is a well established application for Unix and now Linux. But none of this has anything to do with Linux as a DAW. Of course. |
#273
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Mike Rivers wrote:
In article .com writes: What? Are you trying to say that the reason Linux is still around is because it is built by people who enjoy their work? Is that supposed to be a bad thing? Do you expect everything I say to be bad? Not really, just stupid. No, that's a good thing. Without that it would have died long ago. However, what it needs in order to take over from Microsoft is someone with Bill Gates' marketing skill and chutzpah to convince ten million computer users that they need Linux. With a user base like that, the applications developers will be going full steam with real, finished products. Like that. |
#274
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Mike Rivers wrote:
In article writes: Mike Rivers wrote: It may not be a house of cards, but it's a house that's never finished. The reason why it hasn't fallen is because there are so many contractors who like their work. So you are saying that MS-Windows was written by people who hated their work, and it's finished now? Only a person with a closed mind could possibly conclude that from what I wrote. Get real, fella. "However, what it needs in order to take over from Microsoft is someone with Bill Gates' marketing skill and chutzpah to convince ten million computer users that they need Linux. With a user base like that, the applications developers will be going full steam with *real, finished products.* (emphasis added)" - Some net cook. |
#275
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"Jim Richardson" wrote in message ... -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:29:07 +1200, Geoff Wood wrote: "Jim Richardson" wrote in message news:flf0n2- How about an office suite? the browser? your newsreader? did they come from sony with that one click also? can you upgrade them all, with one click? like I can? Yes. So when you upgrade yoru system, with that one click you mention, it upgrades the browser, OE, your DAW stuff, and any and everything else on the machine? No , only the stuff I want it to automatically. geoff |
#276
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"Mike Rivers" wrote in message news:znr1117646721k@trad... In article .com writes: Can you name one? Or two? Let us in rec.audio.pro judge how "pro" they are. So you can play the, "Not a real Scotsman," game? What's that? A Linux game program? Mike, there's no [ppoint. It's like suggesting to somebody in Utah that the world didn't start up, fully equipped, on Day 1 some 5000 years ago. geoff |
#277
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"Tim Smith" wrote in message ... In article znr1117646721k@trad, (Mike Rivers) wrote: Ok, lets see just how much credibility you have and how soon you will start attacking fellow workers in the industry just to debase an OS you know nothing about... http://www.multitrack.us/ And the start of an e-book written by them: http://209.134.141.117/jam/book1.htm How is this answering my question? Why should I have to read a book? I just asked you to name a couple of Linux audio workstation applications that are used professionally. Is that so difficult? Perhaps if you'd actually click the first link, you'd see how it answers your question? Sorry, we've tried that and it fails to impress. geoff |
#278
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"Geoff Wood" wrote in message ... "JEDIDIAH" wrote in message apt-get install ardour* It doesn't get any more "one step than that". That's typing 22 characters. Instead of a double-click and possibly a single OK click or two. Really, 22 chracters, so damn hard. Wouldn't want know what's going on inside the magical box. http://artlung.com/smorgasborg/C_R_Y..._I_C_O_N.shtml jb |
#279
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#280
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