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Bit-resolution and Clipping?
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#45
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#54
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#57
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Bit-resolution and Clipping?
On 22 Dec 2003 18:13:29 -0800, (Dick Pierce)
wrote: (Radium) wrote in message . com... (Stewart Pinkerton) wrote in message ... Which will of course have an output dynamic range of less than 22 bits, as with all available '24 bit' DACs................... Why? Well, now, think about it. What do YOU think 600 dB means? Well, if you haven't gotten there, 600 dB means there is a factor of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 between the amplitudes of the smallest and largest representable signals. That's 10^30 power. Fine, so figure out what THAT means. Okay, didn't bother to go there yet? Fine. Let's look at hooking up a h-fi system to this rather silly device. Let's assume that you have adjusted the volume control so that the very smallest signal this device can put out generates a sound that is 1/100 as loud as the faintest signal you can hear, that is, at a sound pressure level of -20 dB re 10^12 watt/m^2 (that's a trillionth of a watt per square meter). Fine. How loud can it play? Well, according to you, 600 dB -20 dB or 580 dB SPL. Great, what does THAT mean? Well, if it's 580 dB above 1 trillionth of a watt, that's 10^27 watts per square meter of acoustical power. Let's just, for the sake of simplicity, assume the entire acoustical radiation is confined to that 1 square meter The amount of acoustic power you want to put into that small area is something like 1,000,000,000,000,000 times greater then the entire amount of electrical power consumed by the entire United States for all conceivable and inconceivable reasons. And let's assume that your speakers are pretty efficienct, say 10%. That means you are going to have to find yourself an amplifier capable of putting out somewhere in the range of 10,000,000,000,000,000 watts. Assume such an amplifier is running at about 40% efficiency. How much power would you need? Well, the entire output energy output of the sun is probably insufficient to the task. Got it? Perhaps a simpler analogy would be that it represents rather more than the dynamic range that you would experience if you were standing in the New Mexico desert at midnight on a perfectly still night - and a cruise missile exploded ten feet away........... :-) -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
#58
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Bit-resolution and Clipping?
On 22 Dec 2003 18:13:29 -0800, (Dick Pierce)
wrote: (Radium) wrote in message . com... (Stewart Pinkerton) wrote in message ... Which will of course have an output dynamic range of less than 22 bits, as with all available '24 bit' DACs................... Why? Well, now, think about it. What do YOU think 600 dB means? Well, if you haven't gotten there, 600 dB means there is a factor of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 between the amplitudes of the smallest and largest representable signals. That's 10^30 power. Fine, so figure out what THAT means. Okay, didn't bother to go there yet? Fine. Let's look at hooking up a h-fi system to this rather silly device. Let's assume that you have adjusted the volume control so that the very smallest signal this device can put out generates a sound that is 1/100 as loud as the faintest signal you can hear, that is, at a sound pressure level of -20 dB re 10^12 watt/m^2 (that's a trillionth of a watt per square meter). Fine. How loud can it play? Well, according to you, 600 dB -20 dB or 580 dB SPL. Great, what does THAT mean? Well, if it's 580 dB above 1 trillionth of a watt, that's 10^27 watts per square meter of acoustical power. Let's just, for the sake of simplicity, assume the entire acoustical radiation is confined to that 1 square meter The amount of acoustic power you want to put into that small area is something like 1,000,000,000,000,000 times greater then the entire amount of electrical power consumed by the entire United States for all conceivable and inconceivable reasons. And let's assume that your speakers are pretty efficienct, say 10%. That means you are going to have to find yourself an amplifier capable of putting out somewhere in the range of 10,000,000,000,000,000 watts. Assume such an amplifier is running at about 40% efficiency. How much power would you need? Well, the entire output energy output of the sun is probably insufficient to the task. Got it? Perhaps a simpler analogy would be that it represents rather more than the dynamic range that you would experience if you were standing in the New Mexico desert at midnight on a perfectly still night - and a cruise missile exploded ten feet away........... :-) -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
#59
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Bit-resolution and Clipping?
Per Stromgren wrote:
I can see the ad in front of me: "The new Gizmo 600dB amp will outperform the sun!" The multimedia speakers for PC's will get there first .... it was indeed a well written and entertaining discourse Mr. Pierce delivered. Per. Seasons Greetings / God Jul Peter Larsen -- ************************************************** *********** * \\\\\\\ Quality Ascii handcrafted by Peter Larsen /////// * * \\\\\\\ My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk /////// * ************************************************** *********** |
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Bit-resolution and Clipping?
Per Stromgren wrote:
I can see the ad in front of me: "The new Gizmo 600dB amp will outperform the sun!" The multimedia speakers for PC's will get there first .... it was indeed a well written and entertaining discourse Mr. Pierce delivered. Per. Seasons Greetings / God Jul Peter Larsen -- ************************************************** *********** * \\\\\\\ Quality Ascii handcrafted by Peter Larsen /////// * * \\\\\\\ My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk /////// * ************************************************** *********** |
#61
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Bit-resolution and Clipping?
Per Stromgren wrote:
I can see the ad in front of me: "The new Gizmo 600dB amp will outperform the sun!" The multimedia speakers for PC's will get there first .... it was indeed a well written and entertaining discourse Mr. Pierce delivered. Per. Seasons Greetings / God Jul Peter Larsen -- ************************************************** *********** * \\\\\\\ Quality Ascii handcrafted by Peter Larsen /////// * * \\\\\\\ My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk /////// * ************************************************** *********** |
#62
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Bit-resolution and Clipping?
"Radium" wrote in message
om (Stewart Pinkerton) wrote in message ... Only if the analogue gear it's attached to can cope with this range! Speaking of digital vs. analog, analog clipping isn't as harsh as digital clipping. Not true. Both analog and digital circuits can put very nice flat tops on your music waveforms. However, CDs have a dynamic range of approx. 90dB and tapes have it at about 60dB. This means a CD can handle 90 dB w/out clipping, while a tape can only handle 60dB. Right? Right. In practice this means that you can allow more headroom without getting fried by hiss at low levels. |
#63
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Bit-resolution and Clipping?
"Radium" wrote in message
om (Stewart Pinkerton) wrote in message ... Only if the analogue gear it's attached to can cope with this range! Speaking of digital vs. analog, analog clipping isn't as harsh as digital clipping. Not true. Both analog and digital circuits can put very nice flat tops on your music waveforms. However, CDs have a dynamic range of approx. 90dB and tapes have it at about 60dB. This means a CD can handle 90 dB w/out clipping, while a tape can only handle 60dB. Right? Right. In practice this means that you can allow more headroom without getting fried by hiss at low levels. |
#64
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Bit-resolution and Clipping?
"Radium" wrote in message
om (Stewart Pinkerton) wrote in message ... Only if the analogue gear it's attached to can cope with this range! Speaking of digital vs. analog, analog clipping isn't as harsh as digital clipping. Not true. Both analog and digital circuits can put very nice flat tops on your music waveforms. However, CDs have a dynamic range of approx. 90dB and tapes have it at about 60dB. This means a CD can handle 90 dB w/out clipping, while a tape can only handle 60dB. Right? Right. In practice this means that you can allow more headroom without getting fried by hiss at low levels. |
#65
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Bit-resolution and Clipping?
(Stewart Pinkerton) wrote in message ...
On 22 Dec 2003 18:13:29 -0800, (Dick Pierce) wrote: (Radium) wrote in message . com... Why? Well, now, think about it. What do YOU think 600 dB means? .... your speakers are pretty efficienct, say 10%. That means you are going to have to find yourself an amplifier capable of putting out somewhere in the range of 10,000,000,000,000,000 watts. Assume such an amplifier is running at about 40% efficiency. How much power would you need? Well, the entire output energy output of the sun is probably insufficient to the task. Got it? Perhaps a simpler analogy would be that it represents rather more than the dynamic range that you would experience if you were standing in the New Mexico desert at midnight on a perfectly still night - and a cruise missile exploded ten feet away........... :-) Sure, except that the cruise missle detonation is short by a dozen orders of magnitude or so. |
#66
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Bit-resolution and Clipping?
(Stewart Pinkerton) wrote in message ...
On 22 Dec 2003 18:13:29 -0800, (Dick Pierce) wrote: (Radium) wrote in message . com... Why? Well, now, think about it. What do YOU think 600 dB means? .... your speakers are pretty efficienct, say 10%. That means you are going to have to find yourself an amplifier capable of putting out somewhere in the range of 10,000,000,000,000,000 watts. Assume such an amplifier is running at about 40% efficiency. How much power would you need? Well, the entire output energy output of the sun is probably insufficient to the task. Got it? Perhaps a simpler analogy would be that it represents rather more than the dynamic range that you would experience if you were standing in the New Mexico desert at midnight on a perfectly still night - and a cruise missile exploded ten feet away........... :-) Sure, except that the cruise missle detonation is short by a dozen orders of magnitude or so. |
#67
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Bit-resolution and Clipping?
(Stewart Pinkerton) wrote in message ...
On 22 Dec 2003 18:13:29 -0800, (Dick Pierce) wrote: (Radium) wrote in message . com... Why? Well, now, think about it. What do YOU think 600 dB means? .... your speakers are pretty efficienct, say 10%. That means you are going to have to find yourself an amplifier capable of putting out somewhere in the range of 10,000,000,000,000,000 watts. Assume such an amplifier is running at about 40% efficiency. How much power would you need? Well, the entire output energy output of the sun is probably insufficient to the task. Got it? Perhaps a simpler analogy would be that it represents rather more than the dynamic range that you would experience if you were standing in the New Mexico desert at midnight on a perfectly still night - and a cruise missile exploded ten feet away........... :-) Sure, except that the cruise missle detonation is short by a dozen orders of magnitude or so. |
#68
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Bit-resolution and Clipping?
On 23 Dec 2003 06:29:18 -0800, (Dick Pierce)
wrote: (Stewart Pinkerton) wrote in message ... On 22 Dec 2003 18:13:29 -0800, (Dick Pierce) wrote: (Radium) wrote in message . com... Why? Well, now, think about it. What do YOU think 600 dB means? ... your speakers are pretty efficienct, say 10%. That means you are going to have to find yourself an amplifier capable of putting out somewhere in the range of 10,000,000,000,000,000 watts. Assume such an amplifier is running at about 40% efficiency. How much power would you need? Well, the entire output energy output of the sun is probably insufficient to the task. Got it? Perhaps a simpler analogy would be that it represents rather more than the dynamic range that you would experience if you were standing in the New Mexico desert at midnight on a perfectly still night - and a cruise missile exploded ten feet away........... :-) Sure, except that the cruise missle detonation is short by a dozen orders of magnitude or so. OK, let's go for a nuclear warhead at 3 feet, and extend 'rather more' to 'lots more'............ And it's just a joke, Dick, I know you'll get the old slipstick out again! :-) -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
#69
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Bit-resolution and Clipping?
On 23 Dec 2003 06:29:18 -0800, (Dick Pierce)
wrote: (Stewart Pinkerton) wrote in message ... On 22 Dec 2003 18:13:29 -0800, (Dick Pierce) wrote: (Radium) wrote in message . com... Why? Well, now, think about it. What do YOU think 600 dB means? ... your speakers are pretty efficienct, say 10%. That means you are going to have to find yourself an amplifier capable of putting out somewhere in the range of 10,000,000,000,000,000 watts. Assume such an amplifier is running at about 40% efficiency. How much power would you need? Well, the entire output energy output of the sun is probably insufficient to the task. Got it? Perhaps a simpler analogy would be that it represents rather more than the dynamic range that you would experience if you were standing in the New Mexico desert at midnight on a perfectly still night - and a cruise missile exploded ten feet away........... :-) Sure, except that the cruise missle detonation is short by a dozen orders of magnitude or so. OK, let's go for a nuclear warhead at 3 feet, and extend 'rather more' to 'lots more'............ And it's just a joke, Dick, I know you'll get the old slipstick out again! :-) -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
#70
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Bit-resolution and Clipping?
On 23 Dec 2003 06:29:18 -0800, (Dick Pierce)
wrote: (Stewart Pinkerton) wrote in message ... On 22 Dec 2003 18:13:29 -0800, (Dick Pierce) wrote: (Radium) wrote in message . com... Why? Well, now, think about it. What do YOU think 600 dB means? ... your speakers are pretty efficienct, say 10%. That means you are going to have to find yourself an amplifier capable of putting out somewhere in the range of 10,000,000,000,000,000 watts. Assume such an amplifier is running at about 40% efficiency. How much power would you need? Well, the entire output energy output of the sun is probably insufficient to the task. Got it? Perhaps a simpler analogy would be that it represents rather more than the dynamic range that you would experience if you were standing in the New Mexico desert at midnight on a perfectly still night - and a cruise missile exploded ten feet away........... :-) Sure, except that the cruise missle detonation is short by a dozen orders of magnitude or so. OK, let's go for a nuclear warhead at 3 feet, and extend 'rather more' to 'lots more'............ And it's just a joke, Dick, I know you'll get the old slipstick out again! :-) -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
#71
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Bit-resolution and Clipping?
"Dave Platt" wrote in message ... Which will of course have an output dynamic range of less than 22 bits, as with all available '24 bit' DACs................... Why? Several reasons. Noise is one. All electronics generate noise. One type, known as "thermal" noise, occurs any time you have a resistance - the amount of noise depends on the resistance and the temperature. If you set the maximum output voltage of your DAC to a useful standard level (e.g. 2 volts peak-to-peak, as is fairly usual for CD players and other line-level outputs), you'll find that the thermal noise generated by the resistances in the DAC circuitry will be down in the 24-bit region. If you try to resolve signals smaller than that, they'll be buried in the noise. To get technical about it, noise is not dependent on resistance--just temperature and bandwidth. It is indeed = kTB, where k is a constant. Norm Strong |
#72
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Bit-resolution and Clipping?
"Dave Platt" wrote in message ... Which will of course have an output dynamic range of less than 22 bits, as with all available '24 bit' DACs................... Why? Several reasons. Noise is one. All electronics generate noise. One type, known as "thermal" noise, occurs any time you have a resistance - the amount of noise depends on the resistance and the temperature. If you set the maximum output voltage of your DAC to a useful standard level (e.g. 2 volts peak-to-peak, as is fairly usual for CD players and other line-level outputs), you'll find that the thermal noise generated by the resistances in the DAC circuitry will be down in the 24-bit region. If you try to resolve signals smaller than that, they'll be buried in the noise. To get technical about it, noise is not dependent on resistance--just temperature and bandwidth. It is indeed = kTB, where k is a constant. Norm Strong |
#73
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Bit-resolution and Clipping?
"Dave Platt" wrote in message ... Which will of course have an output dynamic range of less than 22 bits, as with all available '24 bit' DACs................... Why? Several reasons. Noise is one. All electronics generate noise. One type, known as "thermal" noise, occurs any time you have a resistance - the amount of noise depends on the resistance and the temperature. If you set the maximum output voltage of your DAC to a useful standard level (e.g. 2 volts peak-to-peak, as is fairly usual for CD players and other line-level outputs), you'll find that the thermal noise generated by the resistances in the DAC circuitry will be down in the 24-bit region. If you try to resolve signals smaller than that, they'll be buried in the noise. To get technical about it, noise is not dependent on resistance--just temperature and bandwidth. It is indeed = kTB, where k is a constant. Norm Strong |
#74
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Bit-resolution and Clipping?
On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 16:18:56 GMT, "normanstrong"
wrote: "Dave Platt" wrote in message ... Which will of course have an output dynamic range of less than 22 bits, as with all available '24 bit' DACs................... Why? Several reasons. Noise is one. All electronics generate noise. One type, known as "thermal" noise, occurs any time you have a resistance - the amount of noise depends on the resistance and the temperature. If you set the maximum output voltage of your DAC to a useful standard level (e.g. 2 volts peak-to-peak, as is fairly usual for CD players and other line-level outputs), you'll find that the thermal noise generated by the resistances in the DAC circuitry will be down in the 24-bit region. If you try to resolve signals smaller than that, they'll be buried in the noise. To get technical about it, noise is not dependent on resistance--just temperature and bandwidth. It is indeed = kTB, where k is a constant. To get even more technical, noise *voltage* certainly is dependent on resistance, even if noise power isn't. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
#75
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Bit-resolution and Clipping?
On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 16:18:56 GMT, "normanstrong"
wrote: "Dave Platt" wrote in message ... Which will of course have an output dynamic range of less than 22 bits, as with all available '24 bit' DACs................... Why? Several reasons. Noise is one. All electronics generate noise. One type, known as "thermal" noise, occurs any time you have a resistance - the amount of noise depends on the resistance and the temperature. If you set the maximum output voltage of your DAC to a useful standard level (e.g. 2 volts peak-to-peak, as is fairly usual for CD players and other line-level outputs), you'll find that the thermal noise generated by the resistances in the DAC circuitry will be down in the 24-bit region. If you try to resolve signals smaller than that, they'll be buried in the noise. To get technical about it, noise is not dependent on resistance--just temperature and bandwidth. It is indeed = kTB, where k is a constant. To get even more technical, noise *voltage* certainly is dependent on resistance, even if noise power isn't. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
#76
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Bit-resolution and Clipping?
On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 16:18:56 GMT, "normanstrong"
wrote: "Dave Platt" wrote in message ... Which will of course have an output dynamic range of less than 22 bits, as with all available '24 bit' DACs................... Why? Several reasons. Noise is one. All electronics generate noise. One type, known as "thermal" noise, occurs any time you have a resistance - the amount of noise depends on the resistance and the temperature. If you set the maximum output voltage of your DAC to a useful standard level (e.g. 2 volts peak-to-peak, as is fairly usual for CD players and other line-level outputs), you'll find that the thermal noise generated by the resistances in the DAC circuitry will be down in the 24-bit region. If you try to resolve signals smaller than that, they'll be buried in the noise. To get technical about it, noise is not dependent on resistance--just temperature and bandwidth. It is indeed = kTB, where k is a constant. To get even more technical, noise *voltage* certainly is dependent on resistance, even if noise power isn't. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
#77
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Bit-resolution and Clipping?
Dick - congrats on a great answer to someone who didn't appear to appreciate the
significance of logarithmic units. On 22 Dec 2003 18:13:29 -0800, (Dick Pierce) wrote: (Radium) wrote in message . com... (Stewart Pinkerton) wrote in message ... Which will of course have an output dynamic range of less than 22 bits, as with all available '24 bit' DACs................... Why? Well, now, think about it. What do YOU think 600 dB means? Well, if you haven't gotten there, 600 dB means there is a factor of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 between the amplitudes of the smallest and largest representable signals. That's 10^30 power. Fine, so figure out what THAT means. Okay, didn't bother to go there yet? Fine. Let's look at hooking up a h-fi system to this rather silly device. Let's assume that you have adjusted the volume control so that the very smallest signal this device can put out generates a sound that is 1/100 as loud as the faintest signal you can hear, that is, at a sound pressure level of -20 dB re 10^12 watt/m^2 (that's a trillionth of a watt per square meter). Fine. How loud can it play? Well, according to you, 600 dB -20 dB or 580 dB SPL. Great, what does THAT mean? Well, if it's 580 dB above 1 trillionth of a watt, that's 10^27 watts per square meter of acoustical power. Let's just, for the sake of simplicity, assume the entire acoustical radiation is confined to that 1 square meter The amount of acoustic power you want to put into that small area is something like 1,000,000,000,000,000 times greater then the entire amount of electrical power consumed by the entire United States for all conceivable and inconceivable reasons. And let's assume that your speakers are pretty efficienct, say 10%. That means you are going to have to find yourself an amplifier capable of putting out somewhere in the range of 10,000,000,000,000,000 watts. Assume such an amplifier is running at about 40% efficiency. How much power would you need? Well, the entire output energy output of the sun is probably insufficient to the task. Got it? Tony (remove the "_" to reply by email) |
#78
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Bit-resolution and Clipping?
Dick - congrats on a great answer to someone who didn't appear to appreciate the
significance of logarithmic units. On 22 Dec 2003 18:13:29 -0800, (Dick Pierce) wrote: (Radium) wrote in message . com... (Stewart Pinkerton) wrote in message ... Which will of course have an output dynamic range of less than 22 bits, as with all available '24 bit' DACs................... Why? Well, now, think about it. What do YOU think 600 dB means? Well, if you haven't gotten there, 600 dB means there is a factor of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 between the amplitudes of the smallest and largest representable signals. That's 10^30 power. Fine, so figure out what THAT means. Okay, didn't bother to go there yet? Fine. Let's look at hooking up a h-fi system to this rather silly device. Let's assume that you have adjusted the volume control so that the very smallest signal this device can put out generates a sound that is 1/100 as loud as the faintest signal you can hear, that is, at a sound pressure level of -20 dB re 10^12 watt/m^2 (that's a trillionth of a watt per square meter). Fine. How loud can it play? Well, according to you, 600 dB -20 dB or 580 dB SPL. Great, what does THAT mean? Well, if it's 580 dB above 1 trillionth of a watt, that's 10^27 watts per square meter of acoustical power. Let's just, for the sake of simplicity, assume the entire acoustical radiation is confined to that 1 square meter The amount of acoustic power you want to put into that small area is something like 1,000,000,000,000,000 times greater then the entire amount of electrical power consumed by the entire United States for all conceivable and inconceivable reasons. And let's assume that your speakers are pretty efficienct, say 10%. That means you are going to have to find yourself an amplifier capable of putting out somewhere in the range of 10,000,000,000,000,000 watts. Assume such an amplifier is running at about 40% efficiency. How much power would you need? Well, the entire output energy output of the sun is probably insufficient to the task. Got it? Tony (remove the "_" to reply by email) |
#79
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Bit-resolution and Clipping?
Dick - congrats on a great answer to someone who didn't appear to appreciate the
significance of logarithmic units. On 22 Dec 2003 18:13:29 -0800, (Dick Pierce) wrote: (Radium) wrote in message . com... (Stewart Pinkerton) wrote in message ... Which will of course have an output dynamic range of less than 22 bits, as with all available '24 bit' DACs................... Why? Well, now, think about it. What do YOU think 600 dB means? Well, if you haven't gotten there, 600 dB means there is a factor of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 between the amplitudes of the smallest and largest representable signals. That's 10^30 power. Fine, so figure out what THAT means. Okay, didn't bother to go there yet? Fine. Let's look at hooking up a h-fi system to this rather silly device. Let's assume that you have adjusted the volume control so that the very smallest signal this device can put out generates a sound that is 1/100 as loud as the faintest signal you can hear, that is, at a sound pressure level of -20 dB re 10^12 watt/m^2 (that's a trillionth of a watt per square meter). Fine. How loud can it play? Well, according to you, 600 dB -20 dB or 580 dB SPL. Great, what does THAT mean? Well, if it's 580 dB above 1 trillionth of a watt, that's 10^27 watts per square meter of acoustical power. Let's just, for the sake of simplicity, assume the entire acoustical radiation is confined to that 1 square meter The amount of acoustic power you want to put into that small area is something like 1,000,000,000,000,000 times greater then the entire amount of electrical power consumed by the entire United States for all conceivable and inconceivable reasons. And let's assume that your speakers are pretty efficienct, say 10%. That means you are going to have to find yourself an amplifier capable of putting out somewhere in the range of 10,000,000,000,000,000 watts. Assume such an amplifier is running at about 40% efficiency. How much power would you need? Well, the entire output energy output of the sun is probably insufficient to the task. Got it? Tony (remove the "_" to reply by email) |
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Bit-resolution and Clipping?
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