Hello,

I have a small but effective project studio and a client who has
requested Eminem-style vocal doubling on his Rap album. Upon closely
listening to Eminem's vocals, I suspect his engineer is actually
copying and pasting the exact same vocal takes, as there seem to be
too few inconsistencies for it to be an overdub. My best guess as to
achieving this effect was to detune the copied vocal by a small
amount and keep it lower in the mix, with a small delay added to help
distinguish the two vocal tracks. This still doesn't sound quite as
good as Eminem's vocal doubling effect. I have a nice Groove Tubes
condenser mic with a pop filter going into a Motu 828, so the mic is
not a problem. Anyone have any suggestions? The vocals also seem to be
panned center, yet 2 copies are distinguishable. This effect seems to
be used by nearly every popular Rapper nowadays (Sean Paul, 50 Cent,
etc) and it *always* sounds the same so a lot of engineers seem to
know how to do it. What am I missing here? TIA.

"citizen_k" wrote in message m...
Hello,

I have a small but effective project studio and a client who has
requested Eminem-style vocal doubling on his Rap album. Upon closely
listening to Eminem's vocals, I suspect his engineer is actually
copying and pasting the exact same vocal takes, as there seem to be
too few inconsistencies for it to be an overdub. My best guess as to
achieving this effect was to detune the copied vocal by a small
amount and keep it lower in the mix, with a small delay added to help
distinguish the two vocal tracks. This still doesn't sound quite as
good as Eminem's vocal doubling effect. I have a nice Groove Tubes
condenser mic with a pop filter going into a Motu 828, so the mic is
not a problem. Anyone have any suggestions? The vocals also seem to be
panned center, yet 2 copies are distinguishable. This effect seems to
be used by nearly every popular Rapper nowadays (Sean Paul, 50 Cent,
etc) and it *always* sounds the same so a lot of engineers seem to
know how to do it.

What am I missing here? TIA.

The fact that it *is* an overdub!! Any good rapper worth his weight
could probably free-style an overdub and make it a near perfect double,
say nothing of those 'rhyme's that are well rehearsed. BTW, I was
doubling up on lead vocals for rappers over 12 years ago and sometimes
the good ones can get so close that the 'effect' of doubling isn't always
as noticeable as one might like.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s.com
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com

"citizen_k" wrote in message m...
Hello,

I have a small but effective project studio and a client who has
requested Eminem-style vocal doubling on his Rap album. Upon closely
listening to Eminem's vocals, I suspect his engineer is actually
copying and pasting the exact same vocal takes, as there seem to be
too few inconsistencies for it to be an overdub. My best guess as to
achieving this effect was to detune the copied vocal by a small
amount and keep it lower in the mix, with a small delay added to help
distinguish the two vocal tracks. This still doesn't sound quite as
good as Eminem's vocal doubling effect. I have a nice Groove Tubes
condenser mic with a pop filter going into a Motu 828, so the mic is
not a problem. Anyone have any suggestions? The vocals also seem to be
panned center, yet 2 copies are distinguishable. This effect seems to
be used by nearly every popular Rapper nowadays (Sean Paul, 50 Cent,
etc) and it *always* sounds the same so a lot of engineers seem to
know how to do it.

What am I missing here? TIA.

The fact that it *is* an overdub!! Any good rapper worth his weight
could probably free-style an overdub and make it a near perfect double,
say nothing of those 'rhyme's that are well rehearsed. BTW, I was
doubling up on lead vocals for rappers over 12 years ago and sometimes
the good ones can get so close that the 'effect' of doubling isn't always
as noticeable as one might like.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s.com
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com

Hello,

From what I've heard of Eminem's stuff, the detuned/copied idea
doesn't sound right - I did a session with an LA Punk vocalist who
could do a virtual copy of the previous take. Don't underestimate the
talent.....

Any major timing variations could be tweaked with careful use of
Synchro Arts' Vocalign if you want perfection.

Cheers,

Rob




Hello,

I have a small but effective project studio and a client who has
requested Eminem-style vocal doubling on his Rap album. Upon closely
listening to Eminem's vocals, I suspect his engineer is actually
copying and pasting the exact same vocal takes, as there seem to be
too few inconsistencies for it to be an overdub.

Hello,

From what I've heard of Eminem's stuff, the detuned/copied idea
doesn't sound right - I did a session with an LA Punk vocalist who
could do a virtual copy of the previous take. Don't underestimate the
talent.....

Any major timing variations could be tweaked with careful use of
Synchro Arts' Vocalign if you want perfection.

Cheers,

Rob




Hello,

I have a small but effective project studio and a client who has
requested Eminem-style vocal doubling on his Rap album. Upon closely
listening to Eminem's vocals, I suspect his engineer is actually
copying and pasting the exact same vocal takes, as there seem to be
too few inconsistencies for it to be an overdub.

I record double vocal takes all the time and make them match up so well
that you can hardly tell it's two takes. And that's with real
vocalists who actually sing. Sure, it might take a few takes to get
cohesion but it's well worth the effort when that's the sound your
after. The key to making it work is to get it right, so that it
doesn't sound like a double, but simply a thicker single.


ulysses


citizen_k wrote:

I have a small but effective project studio and a client who has
requested Eminem-style vocal doubling on his Rap album. Upon closely
listening to Eminem's vocals, I suspect his engineer is actually
copying and pasting the exact same vocal takes, as there seem to be
too few inconsistencies for it to be an overdub. My best guess as to
achieving this effect was to detune the copied vocal by a small
amount and keep it lower in the mix, with a small delay added to help
distinguish the two vocal tracks. This still doesn't sound quite as
good as Eminem's vocal doubling effect. I have a nice Groove Tubes
condenser mic with a pop filter going into a Motu 828, so the mic is
not a problem. Anyone have any suggestions? The vocals also seem to be
panned center, yet 2 copies are distinguishable. This effect seems to
be used by nearly every popular Rapper nowadays (Sean Paul, 50 Cent,
etc) and it *always* sounds the same so a lot of engineers seem to
know how to do it. What am I missing here? TIA.

I record double vocal takes all the time and make them match up so well
that you can hardly tell it's two takes. And that's with real
vocalists who actually sing. Sure, it might take a few takes to get
cohesion but it's well worth the effort when that's the sound your
after. The key to making it work is to get it right, so that it
doesn't sound like a double, but simply a thicker single.


ulysses


citizen_k wrote:

I have a small but effective project studio and a client who has
requested Eminem-style vocal doubling on his Rap album. Upon closely
listening to Eminem's vocals, I suspect his engineer is actually
copying and pasting the exact same vocal takes, as there seem to be
too few inconsistencies for it to be an overdub. My best guess as to
achieving this effect was to detune the copied vocal by a small
amount and keep it lower in the mix, with a small delay added to help
distinguish the two vocal tracks. This still doesn't sound quite as
good as Eminem's vocal doubling effect. I have a nice Groove Tubes
condenser mic with a pop filter going into a Motu 828, so the mic is
not a problem. Anyone have any suggestions? The vocals also seem to be
panned center, yet 2 copies are distinguishable. This effect seems to
be used by nearly every popular Rapper nowadays (Sean Paul, 50 Cent,
etc) and it *always* sounds the same so a lot of engineers seem to
know how to do it. What am I missing here? TIA.

citizen_k wrote:

I have a small but effective project studio and a client who has
requested Eminem-style vocal doubling on his Rap album. Upon closely
listening to Eminem's vocals, I suspect his engineer is actually
copying and pasting the exact same vocal takes, as there seem to be
too few inconsistencies for it to be an overdub.

I have done some overdubs that were this consistent. I have done some
overdubs where the two takes were so damn precise that you could hear
them beating against one another.

Most performers can't do this.

My best guess as to
achieving this effect was to detune the copied vocal by a small
amount and keep it lower in the mix, with a small delay added to help
distinguish the two vocal tracks. This still doesn't sound quite as
good as Eminem's vocal doubling effect. I have a nice Groove Tubes
condenser mic with a pop filter going into a Motu 828, so the mic is
not a problem. Anyone have any suggestions? The vocals also seem to be
panned center, yet 2 copies are distinguishable. This effect seems to
be used by nearly every popular Rapper nowadays (Sean Paul, 50 Cent,
etc) and it *always* sounds the same so a lot of engineers seem to
know how to do it. What am I missing here? TIA.

I suspect that what is being done is just that the vocalists are very
good. But you can try and fake it, just with one overdub and then a lot
of cut and paste work to make them all line up perfectly.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

citizen_k wrote:

I have a small but effective project studio and a client who has
requested Eminem-style vocal doubling on his Rap album. Upon closely
listening to Eminem's vocals, I suspect his engineer is actually
copying and pasting the exact same vocal takes, as there seem to be
too few inconsistencies for it to be an overdub.

I have done some overdubs that were this consistent. I have done some
overdubs where the two takes were so damn precise that you could hear
them beating against one another.

Most performers can't do this.

My best guess as to
achieving this effect was to detune the copied vocal by a small
amount and keep it lower in the mix, with a small delay added to help
distinguish the two vocal tracks. This still doesn't sound quite as
good as Eminem's vocal doubling effect. I have a nice Groove Tubes
condenser mic with a pop filter going into a Motu 828, so the mic is
not a problem. Anyone have any suggestions? The vocals also seem to be
panned center, yet 2 copies are distinguishable. This effect seems to
be used by nearly every popular Rapper nowadays (Sean Paul, 50 Cent,
etc) and it *always* sounds the same so a lot of engineers seem to
know how to do it. What am I missing here? TIA.

I suspect that what is being done is just that the vocalists are very
good. But you can try and fake it, just with one overdub and then a lot
of cut and paste work to make them all line up perfectly.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Hello,
Upon closely
listening to Eminem's vocals, I suspect his engineer is actually
copying and pasting the exact same vocal takes, as there seem to be
too few inconsistencies for it to be an overdub. My best guess as to
achieving this effect was to detune the copied vocal by a small
amount and keep it lower in the mix, with a small delay added to help
distinguish the two vocal tracks. This still doesn't sound quite as
good as Eminem's vocal doubling effect.


A good rapper can double a part almost perfectly.Copying and
pasting is not a good idea as it will sound thin and lifeless
compared to a good overdub.

Scott Alger

Hello,
Upon closely
listening to Eminem's vocals, I suspect his engineer is actually
copying and pasting the exact same vocal takes, as there seem to be
too few inconsistencies for it to be an overdub. My best guess as to
achieving this effect was to detune the copied vocal by a small
amount and keep it lower in the mix, with a small delay added to help
distinguish the two vocal tracks. This still doesn't sound quite as
good as Eminem's vocal doubling effect.


A good rapper can double a part almost perfectly.Copying and
pasting is not a good idea as it will sound thin and lifeless
compared to a good overdub.

Scott Alger

In article ,
(citizen_k) writes:

Upon closely
listening to Eminem's vocals, I suspect his engineer is actually
copying and pasting the exact same vocal takes, as there seem to be
too few inconsistencies for it to be an overdub.

Well if thats true then it would only amount to some degree of delay rather
than doubling. It may only be a few ms. but copying the same performance and
moving it slightly is not the same thing as actually doubling (performing
again) the track. I dont know about how Eminem does it but some performers are
able to sing very close doubles of their tracks, much the same as how some
people can sing along with the lead vocal of a song on the radio with every
nuance intact.
There are differences, no matter how subtle, in each performance that make
enough difference that a doubled track will not just sound like a delay of the
main track.

Garth~


"I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
Ed Cherney

In article ,
(citizen_k) writes:

Upon closely
listening to Eminem's vocals, I suspect his engineer is actually
copying and pasting the exact same vocal takes, as there seem to be
too few inconsistencies for it to be an overdub.

Well if thats true then it would only amount to some degree of delay rather
than doubling. It may only be a few ms. but copying the same performance and
moving it slightly is not the same thing as actually doubling (performing
again) the track. I dont know about how Eminem does it but some performers are
able to sing very close doubles of their tracks, much the same as how some
people can sing along with the lead vocal of a song on the radio with every
nuance intact.
There are differences, no matter how subtle, in each performance that make
enough difference that a doubled track will not just sound like a delay of the
main track.

Garth~


"I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
Ed Cherney

On Fri, 26 Sep 2003 06:00:52 -0500, Justin Ulysses Morse
wrote:

I record double vocal takes all the time and make them match up so well
that you can hardly tell it's two takes. And that's with real
vocalists who actually sing. Sure, it might take a few takes to get
cohesion but it's well worth the effort when that's the sound your
after. The key to making it work is to get it right, so that it
doesn't sound like a double, but simply a thicker single.


ulysses


I work with 4 rappers on a regular basis, and 3 of them are spot on
accurate.Not only in their phrasing, but tonally and with the same
intensity also. This makes it easy to get that thick vocal sound with
not much editing or processing.

The other guy however is more difficult. He improvises all his
material on the spot, then does a quick write up when he feels he has
the right words.His phrasing is usually different from take to take,
if only slightly.His tone and intensity usually differ also.

I have to determine which words are on the beat the best, then align
the other tracks to fit.Sometimes I do this manually, sometimes I use
vocalign.Even tracks with slightly differing tones and intensity can
be blended if you eq, pan, process, and level them correctly.

Nothing beats a good vocalist nailing the takes with good phrasing,
tonality and intensity. But the tools exist to make almost any take
useable.Experiment with eq, panning, chorus/delay, compression,
and leveling until you come up with a cohesive sound.

Randall

On Fri, 26 Sep 2003 06:00:52 -0500, Justin Ulysses Morse
wrote:

I record double vocal takes all the time and make them match up so well
that you can hardly tell it's two takes. And that's with real
vocalists who actually sing. Sure, it might take a few takes to get
cohesion but it's well worth the effort when that's the sound your
after. The key to making it work is to get it right, so that it
doesn't sound like a double, but simply a thicker single.


ulysses


I work with 4 rappers on a regular basis, and 3 of them are spot on
accurate.Not only in their phrasing, but tonally and with the same
intensity also. This makes it easy to get that thick vocal sound with
not much editing or processing.

The other guy however is more difficult. He improvises all his
material on the spot, then does a quick write up when he feels he has
the right words.His phrasing is usually different from take to take,
if only slightly.His tone and intensity usually differ also.

I have to determine which words are on the beat the best, then align
the other tracks to fit.Sometimes I do this manually, sometimes I use
vocalign.Even tracks with slightly differing tones and intensity can
be blended if you eq, pan, process, and level them correctly.

Nothing beats a good vocalist nailing the takes with good phrasing,
tonality and intensity. But the tools exist to make almost any take
useable.Experiment with eq, panning, chorus/delay, compression,
and leveling until you come up with a cohesive sound.

Randall

I record double vocal takes all the time and make them match up so well
that you can hardly tell it's two takes. And that's with real
vocalists who actually sing.

This might even be easier to obtain with good rappers, because pitch is not the
defining element, rhythmic precision is.

Scott Fraser

I record double vocal takes all the time and make them match up so well
that you can hardly tell it's two takes. And that's with real
vocalists who actually sing.

This might even be easier to obtain with good rappers, because pitch is not the
defining element, rhythmic precision is.

Scott Fraser

(citizen_k) wrote in message om...
Hello,

I have a small but effective project studio and a client who has
requested Eminem-style vocal doubling on his Rap album. Upon closely
listening to Eminem's vocals, I suspect his engineer is actually
copying and pasting the exact same vocal takes, as there seem to be
too few inconsistencies for it to be an overdub. My best guess as to
achieving this effect was to detune the copied vocal by a small
amount and keep it lower in the mix, with a small delay added to help
distinguish the two vocal tracks. This still doesn't sound quite as
good as Eminem's vocal doubling effect. I have a nice Groove Tubes
condenser mic with a pop filter going into a Motu 828, so the mic is
not a problem. Anyone have any suggestions? The vocals also seem to be
panned center, yet 2 copies are distinguishable. This effect seems to
be used by nearly every popular Rapper nowadays (Sean Paul, 50 Cent,
etc) and it *always* sounds the same so a lot of engineers seem to
know how to do it. What am I missing here? TIA.
__________________________________
It's called "flanging", something the Beatles were doing nearly 40
years ago.

When the double track is panned hard left and right in the mix,
playback through Pro-Logic will result in most of it being routed to
the surrounds - imo: COOL!

-CC

(citizen_k) wrote in message om...
Hello,

I have a small but effective project studio and a client who has
requested Eminem-style vocal doubling on his Rap album. Upon closely
listening to Eminem's vocals, I suspect his engineer is actually
copying and pasting the exact same vocal takes, as there seem to be
too few inconsistencies for it to be an overdub. My best guess as to
achieving this effect was to detune the copied vocal by a small
amount and keep it lower in the mix, with a small delay added to help
distinguish the two vocal tracks. This still doesn't sound quite as
good as Eminem's vocal doubling effect. I have a nice Groove Tubes
condenser mic with a pop filter going into a Motu 828, so the mic is
not a problem. Anyone have any suggestions? The vocals also seem to be
panned center, yet 2 copies are distinguishable. This effect seems to
be used by nearly every popular Rapper nowadays (Sean Paul, 50 Cent,
etc) and it *always* sounds the same so a lot of engineers seem to
know how to do it. What am I missing here? TIA.
__________________________________
It's called "flanging", something the Beatles were doing nearly 40
years ago.

When the double track is panned hard left and right in the mix,
playback through Pro-Logic will result in most of it being routed to
the surrounds - imo: COOL!

-CC

Justin Ulysses Morse wrote in message ...
I record double vocal takes all the time and make them match up so well
that you can hardly tell it's two takes. And that's with real
vocalists who actually sing. Sure, it might take a few takes to get
cohesion but it's well worth the effort when that's the sound your
after. The key to making it work is to get it right, so that it
doesn't sound like a double, but simply a thicker single.


ulysses



Your chances for getting it right are greater if you do the double
immediately after the lead.

Justin Ulysses Morse wrote in message ...
I record double vocal takes all the time and make them match up so well
that you can hardly tell it's two takes. And that's with real
vocalists who actually sing. Sure, it might take a few takes to get
cohesion but it's well worth the effort when that's the sound your
after. The key to making it work is to get it right, so that it
doesn't sound like a double, but simply a thicker single.


ulysses



Your chances for getting it right are greater if you do the double
immediately after the lead.

On 26 Sep 2003 09:34:41 -0700, wrote:

Justin Ulysses Morse wrote in message ...
I record double vocal takes all the time and make them match up so well
that you can hardly tell it's two takes. And that's with real
vocalists who actually sing. Sure, it might take a few takes to get
cohesion but it's well worth the effort when that's the sound your
after. The key to making it work is to get it right, so that it
doesn't sound like a double, but simply a thicker single.


ulysses



Your chances for getting it right are greater if you do the double
immediately after the lead.

Then do a second double and lose the original lead.

d

_____________________________

http://www.pearce.uk.com

On 26 Sep 2003 09:34:41 -0700, wrote:

Justin Ulysses Morse wrote in message ...
I record double vocal takes all the time and make them match up so well
that you can hardly tell it's two takes. And that's with real
vocalists who actually sing. Sure, it might take a few takes to get
cohesion but it's well worth the effort when that's the sound your
after. The key to making it work is to get it right, so that it
doesn't sound like a double, but simply a thicker single.


ulysses



Your chances for getting it right are greater if you do the double
immediately after the lead.

Then do a second double and lose the original lead.

d

_____________________________

http://www.pearce.uk.com

(citizen_k) wrote in message om...
Hello,

I have a small but effective project studio and a client who has
requested Eminem-style vocal doubling on his Rap album. Upon closely
listening to Eminem's vocals, I suspect his engineer is actually
copying and pasting the exact same vocal takes, as there seem to be
too few inconsistencies for it to be an overdub. My best guess as to
achieving this effect was to detune the copied vocal by a small
amount and keep it lower in the mix, with a small delay added to help
distinguish the two vocal tracks. This still doesn't sound quite as
good as Eminem's vocal doubling effect. I have a nice Groove Tubes
condenser mic with a pop filter going into a Motu 828, so the mic is
not a problem. Anyone have any suggestions?

I'm so glad you've brought this up. Tupac also used this technique,
but I think he used various vocal tracks.

(citizen_k) wrote in message om...
Hello,

I have a small but effective project studio and a client who has
requested Eminem-style vocal doubling on his Rap album. Upon closely
listening to Eminem's vocals, I suspect his engineer is actually
copying and pasting the exact same vocal takes, as there seem to be
too few inconsistencies for it to be an overdub. My best guess as to
achieving this effect was to detune the copied vocal by a small
amount and keep it lower in the mix, with a small delay added to help
distinguish the two vocal tracks. This still doesn't sound quite as
good as Eminem's vocal doubling effect. I have a nice Groove Tubes
condenser mic with a pop filter going into a Motu 828, so the mic is
not a problem. Anyone have any suggestions?

I'm so glad you've brought this up. Tupac also used this technique,
but I think he used various vocal tracks.

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
citizen_k wrote:

I have a small but effective project studio and a client who has
requested Eminem-style vocal doubling on his Rap album. Upon closely
listening to Eminem's vocals, I suspect his engineer is actually
copying and pasting the exact same vocal takes, as there seem to be
too few inconsistencies for it to be an overdub.

I have done some overdubs that were this consistent. I have done some
overdubs where the two takes were so damn precise that you could hear
them beating against one another.

Most performers can't do this.

My best guess as to
achieving this effect was to detune the copied vocal by a small
amount and keep it lower in the mix, with a small delay added to help
distinguish the two vocal tracks. This still doesn't sound quite as
good as Eminem's vocal doubling effect. I have a nice Groove Tubes
condenser mic with a pop filter going into a Motu 828, so the mic is
not a problem. Anyone have any suggestions? The vocals also seem to be
panned center, yet 2 copies are distinguishable. This effect seems to
be used by nearly every popular Rapper nowadays (Sean Paul, 50 Cent,
etc) and it *always* sounds the same so a lot of engineers seem to
know how to do it. What am I missing here? TIA.

I suspect that what is being done is just that the vocalists are very
good. But you can try and fake it, just with one overdub and then a lot
of cut and paste work to make them all line up perfectly.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I can't believe nobody's mentioned VocAlign. Assuming they used ProTools,
the VocAlign plug-in aligns the energy signature or phrasing of a dub track
to a guide track. Works really well most of the time & is a real time saver
on artists who have a hard time with the double tracking thing.
--
Winter
www.EMBStudios.com
A World of Good Music
(510)325-1029

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
citizen_k wrote:

I have a small but effective project studio and a client who has
requested Eminem-style vocal doubling on his Rap album. Upon closely
listening to Eminem's vocals, I suspect his engineer is actually
copying and pasting the exact same vocal takes, as there seem to be
too few inconsistencies for it to be an overdub.

I have done some overdubs that were this consistent. I have done some
overdubs where the two takes were so damn precise that you could hear
them beating against one another.

Most performers can't do this.

My best guess as to
achieving this effect was to detune the copied vocal by a small
amount and keep it lower in the mix, with a small delay added to help
distinguish the two vocal tracks. This still doesn't sound quite as
good as Eminem's vocal doubling effect. I have a nice Groove Tubes
condenser mic with a pop filter going into a Motu 828, so the mic is
not a problem. Anyone have any suggestions? The vocals also seem to be
panned center, yet 2 copies are distinguishable. This effect seems to
be used by nearly every popular Rapper nowadays (Sean Paul, 50 Cent,
etc) and it *always* sounds the same so a lot of engineers seem to
know how to do it. What am I missing here? TIA.

I suspect that what is being done is just that the vocalists are very
good. But you can try and fake it, just with one overdub and then a lot
of cut and paste work to make them all line up perfectly.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I can't believe nobody's mentioned VocAlign. Assuming they used ProTools,
the VocAlign plug-in aligns the energy signature or phrasing of a dub track
to a guide track. Works really well most of the time & is a real time saver
on artists who have a hard time with the double tracking thing.
--
Winter
www.EMBStudios.com
A World of Good Music
(510)325-1029

Thanks for the answers so far, I still have a question or two though.

One the points I was trying to make is this: For all rap songs that
get played on the radio today, it sounds like the same person is
engineering the rapper's vocals. Obviously this is not the case, but
the technique that is used to double the vocals seems to be well
established in the pro studios that these guys use. I find it
*extremely* hard to believe that these rappers, who smoke lots of weed
and drink lots of alcohol in the studio, are just so good that what I
am hearing is overdubs without much editing. Of course their vocals
are edited A LOT to match rhythmically, I do not doubt that. But my
real question is this - regardless of whether or not these guys are
overdubbing, or just copying and pasting the same take, there is a
definite engineering technique used on Eminem, Sean Paul, 50 Cent,
etc. By engineering technique I mean that both vocal tracks are
distinguishable, and the backing tracks will come in and out without
being startlingly obvious. When just one vocal track is being used for
a line or two, the vocal track doesn't sound weak, which seems to
happen when I double the vocals and then drop the second take out for
a phrase or two. Of course compression is used, but I am looking for
any techniques regarding panning, EQ, detuning, special hardware or
software that is used. I was not familiar with Voc Align so thanks to
those that mentioned that. Thanks again!

Thanks for the answers so far, I still have a question or two though.

One the points I was trying to make is this: For all rap songs that
get played on the radio today, it sounds like the same person is
engineering the rapper's vocals. Obviously this is not the case, but
the technique that is used to double the vocals seems to be well
established in the pro studios that these guys use. I find it
*extremely* hard to believe that these rappers, who smoke lots of weed
and drink lots of alcohol in the studio, are just so good that what I
am hearing is overdubs without much editing. Of course their vocals
are edited A LOT to match rhythmically, I do not doubt that. But my
real question is this - regardless of whether or not these guys are
overdubbing, or just copying and pasting the same take, there is a
definite engineering technique used on Eminem, Sean Paul, 50 Cent,
etc. By engineering technique I mean that both vocal tracks are
distinguishable, and the backing tracks will come in and out without
being startlingly obvious. When just one vocal track is being used for
a line or two, the vocal track doesn't sound weak, which seems to
happen when I double the vocals and then drop the second take out for
a phrase or two. Of course compression is used, but I am looking for
any techniques regarding panning, EQ, detuning, special hardware or
software that is used. I was not familiar with Voc Align so thanks to
those that mentioned that. Thanks again!

"citizen_k" wrote in message
One the points I was trying to make is this: For all rap songs that
get played on the radio today, it sounds like the same person is
engineering the rapper's vocals. Obviously this is not the case, but
the technique that is used to double the vocals seems to be well
established in the pro studios that these guys use.

Yes, and it's what a lot of people here are telling you: Overdub the
vocals. It really isn't that difficult to match up vocals (for the artist,
harder for the engineer) and it is done all the time, not just on rap songs.
It may require several takes, but it's much quicker (read as cheaper) for
the talent to do it than for the engineer to edit it later.

I find it *extremely* hard to believe that these rappers, who smoke lots
of weed
and drink lots of alcohol in the studio, are just so good that what I
am hearing is overdubs without much editing.

Then that's when I'd say, "Come back later when you have your ****
together." Drugs and alcohol definitely affect one's timing, but anything
that hinders a good recording should be left outside the studio. Not always
the case, though.

real question is this - regardless of whether or not these guys are
overdubbing, or just copying and pasting the same take, there is a
definite engineering technique used on Eminem, Sean Paul, 50 Cent,
etc.

Yes, there is a difinite engineering technique used on everything that is
ever recorded. If they're overdubbing then they'll rap it until it's as
close as possible then move phrases IF necessary. If they're duplicating
the same take, then some delay on the duplicate is probably used.

By engineering technique I mean that both vocal tracks are
distinguishable, and the backing tracks will come in and out without
being startlingly obvious. When just one vocal track is being used for
a line or two, the vocal track doesn't sound weak, which seems to
happen when I double the vocals and then drop the second take out for
a phrase or two.

This is confusing me. Maybe because it's late. A lot of times the entire
song will be doubled and accented phrases are added later. When you say
"backing tracks" it sounds like you're talking about the accents. But you
say, "when I double the vocals and then drop the second take out for a
phrase or two." That makes me think that you're doing just the opposite of
accented phrases. It seems like you're "unaccenting" certain phrases. Just
so we are all straight here, you're using one main vocal track plus another
for doubling which you only take out for certain phrases, right?

Of course compression is used, but I am looking for
any techniques regarding panning, EQ, detuning, special hardware or
software that is used. I was not familiar with Voc Align so thanks to
those that mentioned that. Thanks again!

I can only comment on panning he It depends on what the song calls for.
Maybe use two identical vocal tracks panned center and accents on left and
right. Maybe you need to keep the accents in the middle.

"citizen_k" wrote in message
One the points I was trying to make is this: For all rap songs that
get played on the radio today, it sounds like the same person is
engineering the rapper's vocals. Obviously this is not the case, but
the technique that is used to double the vocals seems to be well
established in the pro studios that these guys use.

Yes, and it's what a lot of people here are telling you: Overdub the
vocals. It really isn't that difficult to match up vocals (for the artist,
harder for the engineer) and it is done all the time, not just on rap songs.
It may require several takes, but it's much quicker (read as cheaper) for
the talent to do it than for the engineer to edit it later.

I find it *extremely* hard to believe that these rappers, who smoke lots
of weed
and drink lots of alcohol in the studio, are just so good that what I
am hearing is overdubs without much editing.

Then that's when I'd say, "Come back later when you have your ****
together." Drugs and alcohol definitely affect one's timing, but anything
that hinders a good recording should be left outside the studio. Not always
the case, though.

real question is this - regardless of whether or not these guys are
overdubbing, or just copying and pasting the same take, there is a
definite engineering technique used on Eminem, Sean Paul, 50 Cent,
etc.

Yes, there is a difinite engineering technique used on everything that is
ever recorded. If they're overdubbing then they'll rap it until it's as
close as possible then move phrases IF necessary. If they're duplicating
the same take, then some delay on the duplicate is probably used.

By engineering technique I mean that both vocal tracks are
distinguishable, and the backing tracks will come in and out without
being startlingly obvious. When just one vocal track is being used for
a line or two, the vocal track doesn't sound weak, which seems to
happen when I double the vocals and then drop the second take out for
a phrase or two.

This is confusing me. Maybe because it's late. A lot of times the entire
song will be doubled and accented phrases are added later. When you say
"backing tracks" it sounds like you're talking about the accents. But you
say, "when I double the vocals and then drop the second take out for a
phrase or two." That makes me think that you're doing just the opposite of
accented phrases. It seems like you're "unaccenting" certain phrases. Just
so we are all straight here, you're using one main vocal track plus another
for doubling which you only take out for certain phrases, right?

Of course compression is used, but I am looking for
any techniques regarding panning, EQ, detuning, special hardware or
software that is used. I was not familiar with Voc Align so thanks to
those that mentioned that. Thanks again!

I can only comment on panning he It depends on what the song calls for.
Maybe use two identical vocal tracks panned center and accents on left and
right. Maybe you need to keep the accents in the middle.

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
Your chances for getting it right are greater if you do the double
immediately after the lead.

Then do a second double and lose the original lead.

That's a really good tip I use too.

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
Your chances for getting it right are greater if you do the double
immediately after the lead.

Then do a second double and lose the original lead.

That's a really good tip I use too.

"Winter" wrote in message
ink.net...
I can't believe nobody's mentioned VocAlign. Assuming they used ProTools,
the VocAlign plug-in aligns the energy signature or phrasing of a dub
track
to a guide track. Works really well most of the time & is a real time
saver
on artists who have a hard time with the double tracking thing.

You don't have to have Pro Tools to use Vocalign. There's a standalone
version with pretty painless import/export if you use Windows that will work
with any DAW.

"Winter" wrote in message
ink.net...
I can't believe nobody's mentioned VocAlign. Assuming they used ProTools,
the VocAlign plug-in aligns the energy signature or phrasing of a dub
track
to a guide track. Works really well most of the time & is a real time
saver
on artists who have a hard time with the double tracking thing.

You don't have to have Pro Tools to use Vocalign. There's a standalone
version with pretty painless import/export if you use Windows that will work
with any DAW.

On 27 Sep 2003 00:33:05 -0700, (citizen_k) wrote:


Of course their vocals
are edited A LOT to match rhythmically, I do not doubt that.


It depends on the rapper.I record 4 local rappers regularly, and 3 do
not need much, if any editing at all.I have never used vocalign on
these guys, maybe only moved a word or two to align them.Or fade a
word that went longer than the other takes.

The other guy is almost unable to match any performance, so editing
all his takes is mandatory.Once the vocal tracks are aligned, whether
manually or with vocalign, it becomes more apparent what will work.





But my
real question is this - regardless of whether or not these guys are
overdubbing, or just copying and pasting the same take, there is a
definite engineering technique used on Eminem, Sean Paul, 50 Cent,
etc. By engineering technique I mean that both vocal tracks are
distinguishable, and the backing tracks will come in and out without
being startlingly obvious. When just one vocal track is being used for
a line or two, the vocal track doesn't sound weak, which seems to
happen when I double the vocals and then drop the second take out for
a phrase or two. Of course compression is used, but I am looking for
any techniques regarding panning, EQ, detuning, special hardware or
software that is used. I was not familiar with Voc Align so thanks to
those that mentioned that. Thanks again!

You are assuming they are only doubling the tracks. I do not know what
Eminem, etc do, but the local guys I record always record at least 5
tracks per verse.1 track is usually picked as the main, that is the
most prominent, and is right up the middle.

They add 2 more tracks, and pan them slightly right and left.These
are mixed lower than the main, but only enough to add a thickening
effect.These 2 usually most resemble the main vocal track in phrasing,
tone and intensity.I have recorded 27 takes for one guy, and we took a
while to find the best takes to use.

Then they
usually do 2 more tracks that are panned hard left and right, but only
record words or phrases they want to be accented.

I cannot say if this is typical of the big rappers, but the rappers
around here sure seem to think it is the norm.

Randall

On 27 Sep 2003 00:33:05 -0700, (citizen_k) wrote:


Of course their vocals
are edited A LOT to match rhythmically, I do not doubt that.


It depends on the rapper.I record 4 local rappers regularly, and 3 do
not need much, if any editing at all.I have never used vocalign on
these guys, maybe only moved a word or two to align them.Or fade a
word that went longer than the other takes.

The other guy is almost unable to match any performance, so editing
all his takes is mandatory.Once the vocal tracks are aligned, whether
manually or with vocalign, it becomes more apparent what will work.





But my
real question is this - regardless of whether or not these guys are
overdubbing, or just copying and pasting the same take, there is a
definite engineering technique used on Eminem, Sean Paul, 50 Cent,
etc. By engineering technique I mean that both vocal tracks are
distinguishable, and the backing tracks will come in and out without
being startlingly obvious. When just one vocal track is being used for
a line or two, the vocal track doesn't sound weak, which seems to
happen when I double the vocals and then drop the second take out for
a phrase or two. Of course compression is used, but I am looking for
any techniques regarding panning, EQ, detuning, special hardware or
software that is used. I was not familiar with Voc Align so thanks to
those that mentioned that. Thanks again!

You are assuming they are only doubling the tracks. I do not know what
Eminem, etc do, but the local guys I record always record at least 5
tracks per verse.1 track is usually picked as the main, that is the
most prominent, and is right up the middle.

They add 2 more tracks, and pan them slightly right and left.These
are mixed lower than the main, but only enough to add a thickening
effect.These 2 usually most resemble the main vocal track in phrasing,
tone and intensity.I have recorded 27 takes for one guy, and we took a
while to find the best takes to use.

Then they
usually do 2 more tracks that are panned hard left and right, but only
record words or phrases they want to be accented.

I cannot say if this is typical of the big rappers, but the rappers
around here sure seem to think it is the norm.

Randall

Granted, his rhythmic take is what makes him creative...but his melody is
what makes him hooky.

"Chris Smalt" wrote in message
...

ScotFraser wrote:

This might even be easier to obtain with good rappers, because pitch is
not the defining element, rhythmic precision is.


Maybe you don't think Eminem is a good rapper, but he's one of the most
pitchy ones. It wouldn't sound right if he didn't track his pitch
properly when doubling.


Chris


__________________________________________
Until the worm goes away, I have put "not" in front of my address
Please remove it if you want to email me directly.

Granted, his rhythmic take is what makes him creative...but his melody is
what makes him hooky.

"Chris Smalt" wrote in message
...

ScotFraser wrote:

This might even be easier to obtain with good rappers, because pitch is
not the defining element, rhythmic precision is.


Maybe you don't think Eminem is a good rapper, but he's one of the most
pitchy ones. It wouldn't sound right if he didn't track his pitch
properly when doubling.


Chris


__________________________________________
Until the worm goes away, I have put "not" in front of my address
Please remove it if you want to email me directly.

"citizen_k" wrote in message
m...
Thanks for the answers so far, I still have a question or two though.

One the points I was trying to make is this: For all rap songs that
get played on the radio today, it sounds like the same person is
engineering the rapper's vocals. Obviously this is not the case, but
the technique that is used to double the vocals seems to be well
established in the pro studios that these guys use. I find it
*extremely* hard to believe that these rappers, who smoke lots of weed
and drink lots of alcohol in the studio, are just so good that what I
am hearing is overdubs without much editing. Of course their vocals
are edited A LOT to match rhythmically, I do not doubt that. But my
real question is this - regardless of whether or not these guys are
overdubbing, or just copying and pasting the same take, there is a
definite engineering technique used on Eminem, Sean Paul, 50 Cent,
etc. By engineering technique I mean that both vocal tracks are
distinguishable, and the backing tracks will come in and out without
being startlingly obvious. When just one vocal track is being used for
a line or two, the vocal track doesn't sound weak, which seems to
happen when I double the vocals and then drop the second take out for
a phrase or two. Of course compression is used, but I am looking for
any techniques regarding panning, EQ, detuning, special hardware or
software that is used. I was not familiar with Voc Align so thanks to
those that mentioned that. Thanks again!

If the rapper's overdub is not good all the way through, I usually get a few
takes from them, listen to them through with the lead vox and then just use
the parts that really work. The second voice coming in just to emphasise a
few words, or for the chorus, is often more effective than double tracking
the lot. Some rappers do this naturally when they dub... It's a different
style I guess. It's not all about getting the timing/tuning right, it's got
to make musical sense, so think about the structure of the track and where
you want the vocals to get heavier.

Also, I usually compress the lead quite hard, but don't compress the dubs
much at all. This kinda makes you focus on the lead for timing more and
stops it getting confusing when the dubs are a bit wobbly. Thinning out the
dub vox with eq helps too.
Sometimes I pan the lead and dubs hard left and right, very dry and without
much compression when both are in, but keep the lead central and fat when
it's on it's own. This stops the energy falling off so much when you go back
to just a single voice, and makes it sound like two rappers talking right in
your ears.