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CD & Hard drives underwater?
Hello All,
We had to pull out in sort of a hurry -- Wasn't able to retrieve and pack *everything*. I guess I could probably google this up but thought I'd ask... Is there any experience/knowledge out there with CD/DVD's and hard drives that's sat under salt water for say 2-3 weeks? I've reckoned that everything else is replaceable but curious about those two forms of media. Simply thought I'd ask here first. Andy |
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#2
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#3
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This doesn't fully answer your question, but may offer hope. I was
hired to remove a server from a burnt building to recover data. One external hard drive was fully submerged, the other heavily soaked. I unscrewed the boards and let them dry about a day. Both worked perfectly. We of course immediately transferred the data to another drive. Worst case, i would suggest that your data on the platters will be fine. Your electronics on the board may not fair so well from the salt. If they fail, look on ebay for an identical drive. Swap the electronics onto your old drive. Hope this helps. Danny |
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#4
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"Chevdo" wrote:
I have no experience with that but I would imagine the CDs and DVDs would be fine and the hard drives would be destroyed. So obviously you have taken them apart and tested them yourself? You completely crap on someone with expertise, experience and first-hand knowledge of the subjects about which he writes, yet you spew pure conjecture with no supporting data whatsoever and figure that's useful. Look up the definition of the work "ironic." Someday you're going to grow up (probably, our society has done a pretty good job of suppressing the effects of natural selection), look back on this stuff, and be really embarrassed. Questioning conventional wisdom is a good thing, but try doing it intelligently, as opposed to the way you're doing it now. g -- "It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!" - Lorin David Schultz in the control room making even bad news sound good (Remove spamblock to reply) |
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#5
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"Chevdo" wrote:
I have no experience with that but I would imagine the CDs and DVDs would be fine and the hard drives would be destroyed. Possibly, possibly not. The problem with salt water is that it is very corrosive, so your goal is to get the stuff out of the salt water and flushed out with clean water as quickly as possible. CDs might be fine, but if the lacquer starts to peel and salt water gets to the aluminizer layer, they will be destroyed very quickly. Hard drives depend on how well the HDA is sealed. If the HDA venting doesn't let water inside, you're okay and at worst you'll have to replace the electronics. If you flush everything well with fresh water to get the salt out, you may even be able to use the existing electronics. If salt water gets inside the HDA, however, it's a goner. Dunno about floppies or Zip disks, but again I'd give them a complete flush with fresh water, then with distilled water to keep any salt or dissolved material from winding up on them. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#6
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"Chel van Gennip" wrote in message ... Even if there is salt water in the drive ... Well, I guess it's best to ask a hard disk designer, but I'd have thought it is even more impossible for water to get inside a disk drive than it is for it to get inside, say, a can of beer. It's a hermetically sealed container ... probably one of the most watertight containers you're likely to have in your house. You don't even have to wait to avoid condensation when taking them from a warm environment to a cold environment - the water vapour in the air can't get in. If water *vapour* can't get in, liquid water can't. Just wash the salt water off with clean water, leave the disk to dry out, and try it. Tim |
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#7
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Tim Martin wrote: "Chel van Gennip" wrote in message ... Even if there is salt water in the drive ... Well, I guess it's best to ask a hard disk designer, but I'd have thought it is even more impossible for water to get inside a disk drive than it is for it to get inside, say, a can of beer. It's a hermetically sealed container ... probably one of the most watertight containers you're likely to have in your house. You don't even have to wait to avoid condensation when taking them from a warm environment to a cold environment - the water vapour in the air can't get in. If water *vapour* can't get in, liquid water can't. Just wash the salt water off with clean water, leave the disk to dry out, and try it. Tim I thought most HD had a small vent to equalize the air pressure inside and out. The vent is sometimes partially sealed and it may stop liquid water from getting in, or it may not. I'd clean the external electronics with water before applying power, as has been mentioned, and if you can find the vent perhaps open it and perhaps apply a vacuum to remove any moisture that may have made its way inside. Mark |
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#8
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Tim Martin wrote:
"Chel van Gennip" wrote in message ... Even if there is salt water in the drive ... Well, I guess it's best to ask a hard disk designer, but I'd have thought it is even more impossible for water to get inside a disk drive than it is for it to get inside, say, a can of beer. It's a hermetically sealed container ... probably one of the most watertight containers you're likely to have in your house. You don't even have to wait to avoid condensation when taking them from a warm environment to a cold environment - the water vapour in the air can't get in. Some drives are sealed. Some vent to outside air, with filters. Some are mostly sealed, but have little pinholes to allow pressure to equalize. Which of these is the case for any particular drive determines how screwed you are going to be. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#9
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"Tim Martin" wrote...
Well, I guess it's best to ask a hard disk designer, but I'd have thought it is even more impossible for water to get inside a disk drive than it is for it to get inside, say, a can of beer. It's a hermetically sealed container ... probably one of the most watertight containers you're likely to have in your house. Most of mine have (filtered) pinhole openings to equalize atmospheric pressure. Many of them actually have wording on the label pointing to the hole and warning to NOT cover it. You might get lucky and end up with one that does not have water infiltration, but I wouldn't bet MY data on it. |
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#10
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Tim Martin wrote: "Chel van Gennip" wrote in message ... Even if there is salt water in the drive ... Well, I guess it's best to ask a hard disk designer, but I'd have thought it is even more impossible for water to get inside a disk drive than it is for it to get inside, say, a can of beer. It's a hermetically sealed container ... probably one of the most watertight containers you're likely to have in your house. You don't even have to wait to avoid condensation when taking them from a warm environment to a cold environment - the water vapour in the air can't get in. If water *vapour* can't get in, liquid water can't. Just wash the salt water off with clean water, leave the disk to dry out, and try it. It's not sealed at all. Pressure equalisation is required. There's a tiny filtered vent. It's possible not much water will get through though. Best to take the drive to a data recovery service first rather than trash it. Be prepared to pay a lot of money for their service though. Graham |
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#11
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Chel van Gennip wrote: On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 11:49:46 +0200, Pooh Bear wrote: Tim Martin wrote: "Chel van Gennip" wrote in message Even if there is salt water in the drive ... .... It's a hermetically sealed container ... probably one of the most watertight containers you're likely to have in your house. ... It's not sealed at all. Pressure equalisation is required. There's a tiny filtered vent. It's possible not much water will get through though. Best to take the drive to a data recovery service first rather than trash it. Be prepared to pay a lot of money for their service though. I realised it has been some time since I opened a drive. I have an old 10GB Maxor drive dated apr2000. So I looked inside. The drive is hermetically sealed, except for one singe ventilation hole. Behind this vent there is an airfilter of about 2 cm3 with a carbon filter, maybe moistabsorbing and a fine dust filter. Although it may survive some water, it is not designed to survive your situation: a period of extremely low air presure followed by several feet of salt water for weeks and high air presure. The drive I inspected would most certainly got some water in. About 10 vol% of water is quite possible. Water in the drive will stay in the drive. Best advice is indeed a data recovery service! If you want to do it yourself, I think you will have to inspect the inside, remove the water and do some cleaning (e.g. with isopropyl alcohol). In the drive I inspected I could see the vent hole under the circuit board at the side of the connectors. Underneath the circuitboard there also was a sticker to seal an inspection hole. If you remove this sticker and see any trace of water, you need to open the disk compartment remove the water and clean the inside. Again: a data recovery service knows how to do this with minimal risk. If there is no trace of water behind the inspection sticker, you might try to close the inspection hole, clean and reassemble the circuit board and save your data aon a new drive. All of the above should really be done in a clean room of course ! Any dust particles that get in can crash the head. Graham |
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#12
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There are companies that specialize in recovering data from abused hard
drives. Not cheap, but depending on the value of your data this may be worth consdering. |
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#13
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I've had great luck with these guys. Don't let the "jobs usually cost" price
throw you off. I've found them extremely reasonable for standard recovery jobs. www.1stdatarecovery.com Mike. -- mikerekka at hotmail dot com hates spam "Pooh Bear" wrote in message ... Chel van Gennip wrote: On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 11:49:46 +0200, Pooh Bear wrote: Tim Martin wrote: "Chel van Gennip" wrote in message Even if there is salt water in the drive ... .... It's a hermetically sealed container ... probably one of the most watertight containers you're likely to have in your house. ... It's not sealed at all. Pressure equalisation is required. There's a tiny filtered vent. It's possible not much water will get through though. Best to take the drive to a data recovery service first rather than trash it. Be prepared to pay a lot of money for their service though. I realised it has been some time since I opened a drive. I have an old 10GB Maxor drive dated apr2000. So I looked inside. The drive is hermetically sealed, except for one singe ventilation hole. Behind this vent there is an airfilter of about 2 cm3 with a carbon filter, maybe moistabsorbing and a fine dust filter. Although it may survive some water, it is not designed to survive your situation: a period of extremely low air presure followed by several feet of salt water for weeks and high air presure. The drive I inspected would most certainly got some water in. About 10 vol% of water is quite possible. Water in the drive will stay in the drive. Best advice is indeed a data recovery service! If you want to do it yourself, I think you will have to inspect the inside, remove the water and do some cleaning (e.g. with isopropyl alcohol). In the drive I inspected I could see the vent hole under the circuit board at the side of the connectors. Underneath the circuitboard there also was a sticker to seal an inspection hole. If you remove this sticker and see any trace of water, you need to open the disk compartment remove the water and clean the inside. Again: a data recovery service knows how to do this with minimal risk. If there is no trace of water behind the inspection sticker, you might try to close the inspection hole, clean and reassemble the circuit board and save your data aon a new drive. All of the above should really be done in a clean room of course ! Any dust particles that get in can crash the head. Graham |
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#14
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#16
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Chel van Gennip wrote: On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 16:57:19 +0200, Pooh Bear wrote: Best advice is indeed a data recovery service! If you want to do it yourself, I think you will have to inspect the inside, remove the water and do some cleaning (e.g. with isopropyl alcohol). In the drive I inspected I could see the vent hole under the circuit board at the side of the connectors. Underneath the circuitboard there also was a sticker to seal an inspection hole. If you remove this sticker and see any trace of water, you need to open the disk compartment remove the water and clean the inside. Again: a data recovery service knows how to do this with minimal risk. If there is no trace of water behind the inspection sticker, you might try to close the inspection hole, clean and reassemble the circuit board and save your data aon a new drive. All of the above should really be done in a clean room of course ! Any dust particles that get in can crash the head. As clean/dustfree as possible. Protect against dust from hair and cloth. A real clean room might be a problem there now. The drive I examined had a dustfilter that catches dust from the rotating air in the enclosure. Again: a data recovery service is better equiped for the job! The data is not lost by the flooding I think, but might easely get lost during recovery. I recall reading that a smoke particle's diameter is 10x the typical head to platter distance ( fly height ) on todays' drives ! This really isn't a DIY job. Graham |
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#17
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"Pooh Bear" wrote ...
Chel van Gennip wrote: As clean/dustfree as possible. Protect against dust from hair and cloth. A real clean room might be a problem there now. The drive I examined had a dustfilter that catches dust from the rotating air in the enclosure. Again: a data recovery service is better equiped for the job! The data is not lost by the flooding I think, but might easely get lost during recovery. I recall reading that a smoke particle's diameter is 10x the typical head to platter distance ( fly height ) on todays' drives ! This really isn't a DIY job. AMEN BROTHER! You might just as well throw it in the trash as to open it (unless you're just curious to see what is inside before you trash it.) This is why we make backups. (And keep them in zip-lock plastic bags) |
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#18
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Chevdo wrote:
Yes, that's what I was thinking, however hard drives are well-sealed. You are directly contradicting those here who have openened drives who are telling you there are internalexternal pressure equalization ports in most hard drives. So into which hard drives have you looked and found no such openings? -- ha |
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#19
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Chevdo wrote:
What part of 'I have no experience with that' do you not understand? Unlike your disgraced hero, I state that I don't have experience before my opinion, if I don't. The part where you give advice based on the air between your ears. As for thinking somebody's hero is disgraced, you are now obviously a non****ing nitwit troll with nothing to contribute here so far. You also appear to lack the facilty that allows humans to learn. What's to like? -- ha |
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#20
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I was working at NASA in the early 90's. We had these 40MB Quantum
brand hard drives that were known for their motor dying. We had at least a hundred of these in our division. When they died, we learned we could take off the top of the drive and spin the platters manually. The dieing motors would keep them spinning long enough to back up the data. Another brand drive was famous for having its step motor die. The manufacturer suggested that we take the rear of a screwdriver and bang on the drive just above the location of the step motor. It worked every time. We started to get a reputation as the base "go to" guys to retreive data from dead hard drives. Unfortunately, none of these techniques are very useful with today's drives. Danny |
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#22
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#24
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Chevdo wrote:
no I am not. Hard drives are well-sealed. They are not completely sealed. Please comprehend more effectively. Either something is _sealed_ or something is not sealed, and if there are pressure equalization ports the device is not sealed. This is a pretty simple concept. So much for comprehension. -- ha |
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#25
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"hank alrich" wrote in message
. .. Chevdo wrote: no I am not. Hard drives are well-sealed. They are not completely sealed. Please comprehend more effectively. Either something is _sealed_ or something is not sealed, and if there are pressure equalization ports the device is not sealed. This is a pretty simple concept. So much for comprehension. -- ha Not wishing to get involved but unable to restrain myself, may I point out that steering compasses for boats and aircraft are sealed (the fluid inside doesn't leak out) but do have flexible diaphragms, sometimes very small, made of rubber and even aluminum to equalized internal and external pressures. Steve King |
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#26
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hank alrich wrote: Chevdo wrote: no I am not. Hard drives are well-sealed. They are not completely sealed. Please comprehend more effectively. Either something is _sealed_ or something is not sealed, and if there are pressure equalization ports the device is not sealed. This is a pretty simple concept. So much for comprehension. I don't know if they do or not but those pressure equalization ports could easily have bellows on the inside so as to remain sealed. They would if I was doing the design just in case they were ever submerged. :-) Bob -- "Things should be described as simply as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein |
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#27
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"Bob Cain" wrote...
I don't know if they do or not but those pressure equalization ports could easily have bellows on the inside so as to remain sealed. They would if I was doing the design just in case they were ever submerged. :-) Yes, they *could*. But if you've ever taken a few apart, you would know that they *don't*. |
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#28
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"Chevdo" wrote ...
... I like being wrong nearly as much as I like being right, ... I confess. I was wrong. I rescind my previous nomination, and nominate THIS as the most remarkable posting of the month. Oh, and I can re-plonk you just as fast as you can change aliases. Hope you can get it together someday. |
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#29
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"Chevdo" wrote:
What part of 'I have no experience with that' do you not understand? The part where you WRITE A REPLY ANYWAY. Those with an ounce of common sense default to a "STFU" condition on subjects about which they know nothing. Of course, in your case that would mean you may not ever get to contribute at all... (BTW, there's a difference between hero worship and respect. I'm not surprised that the difference is difficult for you to divine though, since it seems so unlikely that you've ever enjoyed the latter, given your insistence upon and propensity for being the consummate dumb****.) -- "It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!" - Lorin David Schultz in the control room making even bad news sound good (Remove spamblock to reply) |
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#30
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Richard Crowley wrote: "Bob Cain" wrote... I don't know if they do or not but those pressure equalization ports could easily have bellows on the inside so as to remain sealed. They would if I was doing the design just in case they were ever submerged. :-) Yes, they *could*. But if you've ever taken a few apart, you would know that they *don't*. Hmmm, I thought I said I didn't know. Thanks for the suggestion anyway. Ida never thunk it. Love your attitude, BTW. Bob -- "Things should be described as simply as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein |
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#31
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"Bob Cain" wrote ...
Love your attitude, BTW. I apologize. I didn't mean it as a personal remark, but I should have written it differently. |
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#32
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Richard Crowley wrote: "Bob Cain" wrote ... Love your attitude, BTW. I apologize. I didn't mean it as a personal remark, but I should have written it differently. No sweat. I was overtired and that makes my skin thinner. Bob -- "Things should be described as simply as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein |
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#34
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Bob Cain wrote in
: snip...snip Love your attitude, BTW. Bob In light of your documented posting record, you are hardly in a credible position to comment on so-called "attitude," you f...ing hypocrite. |
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#35
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Seems like there is lots of advice here but no experience! The vent on
hard drives is typically a sintered plug designed to act as a microfilter to keep dust etc. out. It probably will also keep water out for a while though it isn't a certainty. Most drives are not hermeticially sealed. Sometimes there is a sticker over the vent which will help seal the disk for a while. As Scott notes salt water is very corrosive and your biggest problem is usually the interface between air and water. If the disks are totally under water of totally above water there will be a much greater chance they won't be damaged. At the water-air interface corrosion will tend to be rapid. Proper form for recovery would be to take ONE disk. Loosen the circuit board and spray it with Dow "scrubbing bubbles" bathroom cleaner.Tak a SOFT brush and lightly scrub the board. Rinse very throughly under running warm water and finally rinse under distilled water. Get some of those photo duster cans and carefully try to blow all the water out from under parts etc. Put it aside and let it dry for at least a couple of days. When dry look the board over at the water line for hideous corrosion. If you see no serious damage you can give it a try with the disk. The disk itself should be rinsed with clear tap water (but not under high pressure which could force water into the sintered plug). Then rinse the outside with distilled water. Crud on the outside of the housing makes little difference so long as the connectors are well cleaned. Always blow out the water from the connectors before rinsing with distilled water and then blow them out again! If the first hard disk does not recover after this, it probably means water got through the filter and the disk is now a goner. The other disks you didn't try will have to be sent to a recovery place for recovery in that event. Expect it to be expensive! If you think that the problem may be the electronic board, you can get a good identical drive and swap the working board from that unit. (Set all jumpers etc to match your board.) As Scott said CDs/DVDs probably will be OK, but again beware of the air-salt water interface. If the disks have the metal layer sealed with epoxy or other lable you stand a good chance they will be fine. I have totally recovered commercial CDs that were laying along the road for months! Recordable CDs are less sturdy. Tapes also can be saved but require a big deal to do it. Basically you have to totally unwind them in distilled water to clean them and then hang them up to dry (not spooled). Once dry you can respool them or put them in to a new cartridge housing. There are cleaning machines that dry tapes after they are cleaned so you can spool them immediately. Note that Huge amounts of tape can be safely stored for drying in a large CLEAN box or on a CLEAN floor by just winding it into a huge pile. But DO NOT disturb the pile before rewinding back on to the spool or all will be lost! For most floods I'd be pretty confident you'd get everything back, but in this case it is the length of time under (salt) water that make me worry that all may be lost. Sorry. Still a recovery attempt would be worth the effort. Benj |
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#36
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"Chevdo" wrote:
Really, well few of the people who have offered their opinion on this subject have had actual experience retrieving data from hard-drives and CDs that have been submerged in salt-water for 2 weeks. True, but most made well-reasoned arguments based on some understanding of the mechanics and/or chemistry involved. You threw out a blind guess with nothing to support it. Kind of like your completely erroneous statement about sampling rate and waveform resolution. You're a special case, whoever you are. You desperately want to be considered an expert, but your blatant refusal to do the legwork required to actually be one, combined with your attempts to discredit those who have because they threaten your self-image, make you flash brightly on the ridicule radar. If this was the Air Force, you'd be a bogey. Since it isn't, you're just a booger. You're flailing around in the deep end of the stupid pool. You keep grasping at imaginary concepts to support yourself, but they don't float so you just keep getting in deeper. In the meantime, you continue taking swings at anyone who tries to save you from drowning. Unfortunately your panic at discovering the weakness of your position is causing you to spray **** all over the place. That's unpleasant for everyone else who uses the pool, so I'm just throwing rocks at you in the hope that you'll go down soon. Of course, you could just learn to swim and everyone would get along fine, but you don't seem interested in doing that. -- "It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!" - Lorin David Schultz in the control room making even bad news sound good (Remove spamblock to reply) |
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#37
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