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#1
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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circuit to pc board
i hve cross posted this as i am not sudre this usenet is appropriate
given a circuit design--like a phono preamp how do i go about building it?--i know about layout boards that ahve rows of puish in connectores but each time i try to do it i get a rats nest of wires etc is there some software to help constructing them--how do people get such neat layoouts on pc boards from a circuit design i know about cad and suspect there is something simil;iar--i know there is softwadre to design circuits and actually test them on screen but what about the physical construction tia peter |
#2
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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circuit to pc board
"ilaboo" wrote in message
news:kSxyj.2025$6R.278@trnddc04... i hve cross posted this as i am not sudre this usenet is appropriate given a circuit design--like a phono preamp how do i go about building it?--i know about layout boards that ahve rows of puish in connectores but each time i try to do it i get a rats nest of wires etc is there some software to help constructing them--how do people get such neat layoouts on pc boards from a circuit design i know about cad and suspect there is something simil;iar--i know there is softwadre to design circuits and actually test them on screen but what about the physical construction tia peter I would love to reply to you, but I find it very difficult to understand what you're asking. Have you *any* idea how difficult it is to understand a posting with no punctuation or capital letters? You would do much better if you wrote your posts in proper English, and not as if you were creating a text message for a mobile 'phone. S. -- http://audiopages.googlepages.com |
#3
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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circuit to pc board
"ilaboo" wrote ...
i hve cross posted this as i am not sudre this usenet is appropriate This message was addressed ONLY to rec.audio.tech It is not cross-posted. Perhaps you meant to say that this message was multi-posted separately to other NG. Note that multi-posting an identical message is NOT as desirable as real cross-posting. given a circuit design--like a phono preamp how do i go about building it?--i know about layout boards that ahve rows of puish in connectores but each time i try to do it i get a rats nest of wires etc Note that if you are making only one or two boards, people use "generic" PC boards. Many of these look just like your push-in connector boards, but you solder the components in place in the same way you had them in the breadboard. is there some software to help constructing them--how do people get such neat layoouts on pc boards from a circuit design There are special CAD products just to capture electronic circuit diagrams. And there are also special CAD products for PC boards. Many vendors have both (circuit & PC) and link them together so that a circuit described in the circuit CAD can be easily "imported" into the PC board CAD tool. Very complex boards like digital circuits are typically "auto-routed" where a human places the various components on the board, and then the software automatically draws the lines between the pins to re-create the circuit as descirbed in the circuit CAD information. OTOH, many analog boards, and particularly those which deal with critical signals (RF, very low currents, etc.) are often layed out and routed by hand. i know about cad and suspect there is something simil;iar--i know there is softwadre to design circuits and actually test them on screen but what about the physical construction There are many ways of making PC boards once you have the image of the copper pads and tracks. There are many methods of doing it yourself at home or in a small commercial operation. And there are also many vendors of custom PC board fabrication. There are several companies in the US (incluing one across town from me) who have a national business making PC boards from files people send them over the internet. They offer anything from overnight to 3-5 day service for various prices. And there are board fabricators in places like China and Bulgaria who also do a brisk international business in PC board fabrication from files sent to them over the internet. |
#4
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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circuit to pc board
ilaboo wrote: i hve cross posted this as i am not sudre this usenet is appropriate No, this is not cross-posted. There is only one group in the headers. given a circuit design--like a phono preamp how do i go about building it?--i know about layout boards that ahve rows of puish in connectores but each time i try to do it i get a rats nest of wires etc Well yes, you start with a rat's nest and then route the traces/tracks. is there some software to help constructing them--how do people get such neat layoouts on pc boards from a circuit design There are auto-routers but these are rarely ideal for audio since they weren't designed with that in mind. i know about cad and suspect there is something simil;iar--i know there is softwadre to design circuits and actually test them on screen but what about the physical construction Well .. how did you get these rat's nests you talked of ? It would be a CAD program. Graham |
#5
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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circuit to pc board
ilaboo wrote:
i hve cross posted this as i am not sudre this usenet is appropriate given a circuit design--like a phono preamp how do i go about building it?--i know about layout boards that ahve rows of puish in connectores but each time i try to do it i get a rats nest of wires etc is there some software to help constructing them--how do people get such neat layoouts on pc boards from a circuit design i know about cad and suspect there is something simil;iar--i know there is softwadre to design circuits and actually test them on screen but what about the physical construction Go to an electronics hobby store and buy a kitset. geoff |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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circuit to pc board
"ilaboo" wrote in message
news:kSxyj.2025$6R.278@trnddc04... i hve cross posted this as i am not sudre this usenet is appropriate given a circuit design--like a phono preamp how do i go about building it?--i know about layout boards that ahve rows of puish in connectores but each time i try to do it i get a rats nest of wires etc is there some software to help constructing them--how do people get such neat layoouts on pc boards from a circuit design i know about cad and suspect there is something simil;iar--i know there is softwadre to design circuits and actually test them on screen but what about the physical construction I downloaded the educational (free) version of EAGLE Layout Editor from http://www.cadsoftusa.com/, and entered my schematic, and laid out the circuit board. Then, I paid $50.00 US to have http://www.custompcb.com/ to make four prototype boards. The project was quite successful. If you want to make more than two layer boards, bigger than about 3" x 4" you need the professional version of EAGLE, and of course, the cost of the prototypes goes up. for audio, you can probably get by with two layers, but four layers is nice, because you can make power and ground planes, which can add dramatically to the stability of the device, and ease layout and routing concerns. |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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circuit to pc board
I feel the same way.
There is no single formal method that accommodates the many constraints and objectives. This is not easy for engineers to accept...too much freedom feels like art. The general area of maths that the problem belongs to is called "operations research"... loads of matrix algebra and iterative methods originally put together to help get merchant ships across the Atlantic without getting sunk by the enemy, who at the time were Germans. Some classic operations research applications have obvious similarities to circuit design, such as finding the shortest route passing through a given set of many cities, or the most economical way of providing many warehouses from many factories. Such methodologies are generally so lengthy to do manually that you could have muddled through to an acceptable solution ages before you could optimise mathematically. So, until very recently, muddle through is what everyone did. The more experience you have, the quicker you can muddle. Partly this is due to increasing confidence that muddling is best, and partly it's because you develop some rules of thumb. Computers have changed the world possibly in this way more than any other. Doing calculations faster than before is itself of limited value. The revolution is that if they are fast enough, they can be done in real time, and so become useful for the first time. Route planning software is commonplace, but the formal methods were rarely used manually because calculation was slower than muddling. Similarly for circuit board design AFAIK. For muddling through, you need sufficient spatial ability to envisage how to simplify the rats nest by relocating, rotating, and inverting components. A bit like untangling the strings of a puppet. You need to think several moves ahead, accept that things may get worse before they get better, but also that sometimes it's time to rip up and retry (unlike a puppet, where eventually you cut and restring). It helps to realise that several possible objectives conflict with each other. You may want the shortest total track length, or the most compact layout, or the most logical, or the one with the fewest jumpers, or one with orthogonal tracks or components or both. You can't have all these at once, generally, so you have to compromise. Good layout software, complete with fully-fledged autorouter, is not free AFAIK. Limited and dedicated versions can be found free from board manufacturers that cater for prototypes and small runs. http://www.pcb-pool.com/ springs to mind. A good autorouter should allow you to weight all your objectives and constraints rather than simply choose between them. A stripboard autorouter would be a fine thing. If you want your design to be neat, orthogonal and logical, you need lots of jumpers and the board area to accommodate them. It takes many iterations even for quite a simple circuit. All in all, there is no silver bullet. Don't underestimate the skills of good electronics design engineers. Ian |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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circuit to pc board
"Richard Crowley" wrote in message ... "ilaboo" wrote ... i hve cross posted this as i am not sudre this usenet is appropriate This message was addressed ONLY to rec.audio.tech It is not cross-posted. Perhaps you meant to say that this message was multi-posted separately to other NG. Note that multi-posting an identical message is NOT as desirable as real cross-posting. given a circuit design--like a phono preamp how do i go about building it?--i know about layout boards that ahve rows of puish in connectores but each time i try to do it i get a rats nest of wires etc Note that if you are making only one or two boards, people use "generic" PC boards. Many of these look just like your push-in connector boards, but you solder the components in place in the same way you had them in the breadboard. is there some software to help constructing them--how do people get such neat layoouts on pc boards from a circuit design There are special CAD products just to capture electronic circuit diagrams. And there are also special CAD products for PC boards. Many vendors have both (circuit & PC) and link them together so that a circuit described in the circuit CAD can be easily "imported" into the PC board CAD tool. Very complex boards like digital circuits are typically "auto-routed" where a human places the various components on the board, and then the software automatically draws the lines between the pins to re-create the circuit as descirbed in the circuit CAD information. OTOH, many analog boards, and particularly those which deal with critical signals (RF, very low currents, etc.) are often layed out and routed by hand. i know about cad and suspect there is something simil;iar--i know there is softwadre to design circuits and actually test them on screen but what about the physical construction There are many ways of making PC boards once you have the image of the copper pads and tracks. There are many methods of doing it yourself at home or in a small commercial operation. And there are also many vendors of custom PC board fabrication. There are several companies in the US (incluing one across town from me) who have a national business making PC boards from files people send them over the internet. They offer anything from overnight to 3-5 day service for various prices. And there are board fabricators in places like China and Bulgaria who also do a brisk international business in PC board fabrication from files sent to them over the internet. super thanks peter |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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circuit to pc board
"Karl" wrote in message news:BfFyj.1275$LK3.116@trndny02... "ilaboo" wrote in message news:kSxyj.2025$6R.278@trnddc04... i hve cross posted this as i am not sudre this usenet is appropriate given a circuit design--like a phono preamp how do i go about building it?--i know about layout boards that ahve rows of puish in connectores but each time i try to do it i get a rats nest of wires etc is there some software to help constructing them--how do people get such neat layoouts on pc boards from a circuit design i know about cad and suspect there is something simil;iar--i know there is softwadre to design circuits and actually test them on screen but what about the physical construction I downloaded the educational (free) version of EAGLE Layout Editor from http://www.cadsoftusa.com/, and entered my schematic, and laid out the circuit board. Then, I paid $50.00 US to have http://www.custompcb.com/ to make four prototype boards. The project was quite successful. If you want to make more than two layer boards, bigger than about 3" x 4" you need the professional version of EAGLE, and of course, the cost of the prototypes goes up. for audio, you can probably get by with two layers, but four layers is nice, because you can make power and ground planes, which can add dramatically to the stability of the device, and ease layout and routing concerns. fantastic program!! thanks peter |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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circuit to pc board
"Ian Iveson" wrote in message .uk... I feel the same way. There is no single formal method that accommodates the many constraints and objectives. This is not easy for engineers to accept...too much freedom feels like art. The general area of maths that the problem belongs to is called "operations research"... loads of matrix algebra and iterative methods originally put together to help get merchant ships across the Atlantic without getting sunk by the enemy, who at the time were Germans. Some classic operations research applications have obvious similarities to circuit design, such as finding the shortest route passing through a given set of many cities, or the most economical way of providing many warehouses from many factories. Such methodologies are generally so lengthy to do manually that you could have muddled through to an acceptable solution ages before you could optimise mathematically. So, until very recently, muddle through is what everyone did. The more experience you have, the quicker you can muddle. Partly this is due to increasing confidence that muddling is best, and partly it's because you develop some rules of thumb. Computers have changed the world possibly in this way more than any other. Doing calculations faster than before is itself of limited value. The revolution is that if they are fast enough, they can be done in real time, and so become useful for the first time. Route planning software is commonplace, but the formal methods were rarely used manually because calculation was slower than muddling. Similarly for circuit board design AFAIK. For muddling through, you need sufficient spatial ability to envisage how to simplify the rats nest by relocating, rotating, and inverting components. A bit like untangling the strings of a puppet. You need to think several moves ahead, accept that things may get worse before they get better, but also that sometimes it's time to rip up and retry (unlike a puppet, where eventually you cut and restring). It helps to realise that several possible objectives conflict with each other. You may want the shortest total track length, or the most compact layout, or the most logical, or the one with the fewest jumpers, or one with orthogonal tracks or components or both. You can't have all these at once, generally, so you have to compromise. Good layout software, complete with fully-fledged autorouter, is not free AFAIK. Limited and dedicated versions can be found free from board manufacturers that cater for prototypes and small runs. http://www.pcb-pool.com/ springs to mind. A good autorouter should allow you to weight all your objectives and constraints rather than simply choose between them. A stripboard autorouter would be a fine thing. If you want your design to be neat, orthogonal and logical, you need lots of jumpers and the board area to accommodate them. It takes many iterations even for quite a simple circuit. All in all, there is no silver bullet. Don't underestimate the skills of good electronics design engineers. Ian fantastic help and i appreciate it thanks again peter |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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circuit to pc board
On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 00:03:34 GMT, "Ian Iveson"
wrote: Good layout software, complete with fully-fledged autorouter, is not free AFAIK. Limited and dedicated versions can be found free from board manufacturers that cater for prototypes and small runs. http://www.pcb-pool.com/ springs to mind. A good autorouter should allow you to weight all your objectives and constraints rather than simply choose between them. It is a long time since I did any circuit layout, but I remember that way back, even the best autorouters did not do low-level audio well. You always had to lay out the input circuitry manually because none of them had a facility for star point grounding of selected tracks. Is that any different these days? d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
#12
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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circuit to pc board
"ilaboo" wrote in message
news:kSxyj.2025$6R.278@trnddc04 i hve cross posted this as i am not sudre this usenet is appropriate given a circuit design--like a phono preamp how do i go about building it?--i know about layout boards that ahve rows of puish in connectores but each time i try to do it i get a rats nest of wires etc (1) Take a piece of paper and lay out the major active components, inputs, outputs, and controls in a row or a series of rows that correspond to the circuit's over-all function. Space these most important components widely. Put all inputs on the left and as many outputs as possible on the right. (2) Draw in the remaining supporting and connecting components, trying to minimize the number of lines that cross each other. (3) Redraw the resulting diagram to minimize any excessive white space, if necessary. is there some software to help constructing them--how do people get such neat layoouts on pc boards from a circuit design Usually, audio gear is simple enough that computer aids are not a requirement. However, a good drawing program like Visio or Corel Draw can help you obtain a neater appearance, once you learn how to use them. When you use a drawing program, you obtain or develop a number of small drawings or clips of commonly-used components. You define a grid for snapping, so that the program will simplify the problem of aligning parts to get a neat, orderly appearance. You then duplicate component clips onto the grid and orient them following steps 1-3 above. Finally, you draw the lines that connect the components together into a circuit. i know about cad and suspect there is something simil;iar--i know there is softwadre to design circuits and actually test them on screen but what about the physical construction Circuit simulation programs of necessity have some kind of circuit drawing facilities. Circuit simulators like VHDL and various flavors of SPICE are used for this purpose. There are many others. Seach google for "circuit simulator". |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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circuit to pc board
On Mar 3, 8:24 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
Circuit simulation programs of necessity have some kind of circuit drawing facilities. Circuit simulators like VHDL and various flavors of SPICE are used for this purpose. Well, no, simulators do NOT have, "of necessity" some kind of circuit drawing program. While many of them have them as a convenience, the ultimate input to a simulator has to be some sort of net list, and they are, by their very nature, not graphic but tabular, in many cases. SPICE, for example, which has been around since the at least the mid-1970's, had ONLY a tabular net list input, and more recent versions have graphical inputs that are simply front-end wrappers for the underlying text. |
#14
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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circuit to pc board
"Ian Iveson" writes in
eyonder.co.uk: Good layout software, complete with fully-fledged autorouter, is not free AFAIK. Maybe. But it's worth renewing the search occasionally. Like, say, on "free pcb software". One link I found in a brief scan of my horrendously disorganised bookmarks file was http://www.freebyte.com/cad/cad.htm I'm sure there are other and maybe better collections of such links. But there are undoubtedly varying standards of "good". A stripboard autorouter would be a fine thing. Have you *tried* a search on "stripboard autorouter"? I was interested to see a few, now; the only stripboard prog I'd installed was http://www.geocities.com/stripboarddesigner/ back in 2002! All in all, there is no silver bullet. One may be invented soon, or already;- surely some are working on it! (;=})) Ian Ross |
#15
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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circuit to pc board
Eeyore asked in
: ilaboo wrote: snip Well .. how did you get these rat's nests you talked of ? It would be a CAD program. Graham It seemed fairly clear to me that he was using it as a metaphor for the resultant actual physical construction he'd arrived at without a CAD program:- indeed, from a layout board with push-in connectors ... -- Ross |
#16
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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circuit to pc board
ilaboo wrote:
i hve cross posted this as i am not sudre this usenet is appropriate given a circuit design--like a phono preamp how do i go about building it?--i know about layout boards that ahve rows of puish in connectores but each time i try to do it i get a rats nest of wires etc is there some software to help constructing them--how do people get such neat layoouts on pc boards from a circuit design i know about cad and suspect there is something simil;iar--i know there is softwadre to design circuits and actually test them on screen but what about the physical construction www.expresspcb.com |
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