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jason jason is offline
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Default XY-MS what happened to the room ambience?

I recently recorded a 24-voice acapella group performing in a great-
sounding church.

When I make a recording like this, I set up early and record a minute or
two of "the room" before anybody's there. I've used that a bit to
eliminate low-freq rumbles from HVAC and the like, but this recent
performance didn't have any of that. There -was- a low-freq "room sound"
(sorry I cannot characterize that better). It wasn't hvac or ac hum; it
sounded like stepping into a spacious, empty room. I've experienced that
ambient background many places where I've made recordings.

For fun, I used an Audition plugin to convert the X-Y recording to M-S
because I wanted to see what the effect of "more S and less M" would do to
spread out the image. The result was very pleasing if I didn't push it
very hard. But I noticed something I can't explain: the M-S rendition had
much less of "the room" ambience than the X-Y recording. The vocals didn't
sound different except for being spread out some. I actually liked the
fact that silences during the performance were really silent compared to
X-Y.

What accounts for this or am I hearing things? (or not)

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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Jason wrote:

For fun, I used an Audition plugin to convert the X-Y recording to M-S
because I wanted to see what the effect of "more S and less M" would do to
spread out the image. The result was very pleasing if I didn't push it
very hard. But I noticed something I can't explain: the M-S rendition had
much less of "the room" ambience than the X-Y recording. The vocals didn't
sound different except for being spread out some. I actually liked the
fact that silences during the performance were really silent compared to
X-Y.


Okay, you have L and R signals in a file.

You convert them to M and S.

Then, you adjust the levels in order to change the stereo image.

Then, you convert them back to L and R to play them back.

Is this the process you are going through, or did you omit one or more stage?
If you convert to M-S, don't change the gains, and then convert back to left
and right, you shouldn't notice any difference in sound at all. If you do,
there is a mathematical issue going on.

If you convert to M-S and then play the M-S signal through two speakers, it will
sound bizarre and not very useful.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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[email protected] makolber@yahoo.com is offline
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The low freq room tone is probably almost
all mono in phase. Any processing you do
to that reduces the mono in phase component
and increases the out of phase difference
component will likely also reduce
the room tone. M
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On Saturday, April 29, 2017 at 10:40:48 PM UTC-4, Jason wrote:
I recently recorded a 24-voice acapella group performing in a great-
sounding church.

When I make a recording like this, I set up early and record a minute or
two of "the room" before anybody's there. I've used that a bit to
eliminate low-freq rumbles from HVAC




Forced air? Steam? What makes "rumble"?

Jack


and the like, but this recent
performance didn't have any of that. There -was- a low-freq "room sound"
(sorry I cannot characterize that better). It wasn't hvac or ac hum; it
sounded like stepping into a spacious, empty room. I've experienced that
ambient background many places where I've made recordings.

For fun, I used an Audition plugin to convert the X-Y recording to M-S
because I wanted to see what the effect of "more S and less M" would do to
spread out the image. The result was very pleasing if I didn't push it
very hard. But I noticed something I can't explain: the M-S rendition had
much less of "the room" ambience than the X-Y recording. The vocals didn't
sound different except for being spread out some. I actually liked the
fact that silences during the performance were really silent compared to
X-Y.

What accounts for this or am I hearing things? (or not)


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jason jason is offline
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On 29 Apr 2017 23:36:45 -0400 "Scott Dorsey" wrote in
article
Is this the process you are going through, or did you omit one or more stage?
If you convert to M-S, don't change the gains, and then convert back to left
and right, you shouldn't notice any difference in sound at all. If you do,
there is a mathematical issue going on.


I did that. The sound changed, so I think you're speculation about a math
issue is probably true.


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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Jason wrote:
On 29 Apr 2017 23:36:45 -0400 "Scott Dorsey" wrote in
article
Is this the process you are going through, or did you omit one or more stage?
If you convert to M-S, don't change the gains, and then convert back to left
and right, you shouldn't notice any difference in sound at all. If you do,
there is a mathematical issue going on.


I did that. The sound changed, so I think you're speculation about a math
issue is probably true.


Well, that's no good. Let us know what software this is so we can avoid it.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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jason jason is offline
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On Sat, 13 May 2017 10:32:35 -0700 (PDT) " jjaj1998
@netscape.net wrote in article e4be4864-63a9-462c-9adf-4ee66ae2a245
@googlegroups.com

Just my two cents, no attack intended.


None taken. I use a number of Adobe CC products for audio, photos, video,
and document creation so I have a CC subscription. Worth the money for
what I need.
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On Saturday, May 13, 2017 at 8:24:53 PM UTC-4, Jason wrote:
On Sat, 13 May 2017 10:32:35 -0700 (PDT) " jjaj1998
@netscape.net wrote in article e4be4864-63a9-462c-9adf-4ee66ae2a245
@googlegroups.com

Just my two cents, no attack intended.


None taken. I use a number of Adobe CC products for audio, photos, video,
and document creation so I have a CC subscription. Worth the money for
what I need.


Great, Jason!!!

I can't stand Adobe. Each time you update the Acrobat reader, it installs others' software, like a Yahoo (browser) toolbar. In other words, they are hungry for money.

Jack



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On Sun, 14 May 2017 19:28:36 -0700 (PDT) " jjaj1998
@netscape.net wrote in article f1d6a83a-e1ad-448a-b8b8-7a9d10cce932
@googlegroups.com
I can't stand Adobe. Each time you update the Acrobat reader, it installs others' software, like a Yahoo (browser) toolbar. In other words, they are hungry for money.

Simply not true. If you look -carefully- at that update you are given a
choice about the yahoo stuff. The Creative Cloud apps are not freebies so
don't drag along external baggage. Pay attention!
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On Tuesday, May 16, 2017 at 11:49:22 PM UTC-4, Jason wrote:
On Sun, 14 May 2017 19:28:36 -0700 (PDT) " jjaj1998
@netscape.net wrote in article f1d6a83a-e1ad-448a-b8b8-7a9d10cce932
@googlegroups.com
I can't stand Adobe. Each time you update the Acrobat reader, it installs others' software, like a Yahoo (browser) toolbar. In other words, they are hungry for money.

Simply not true. If you look -carefully- at that update you are given a
choice about the yahoo stuff. The Creative Cloud apps are not freebies so
don't drag along external baggage. Pay attention!


Bottom line, Adobe is still hard-up for money, soliciting software for others.
I can see how the Adobe reader and a POS Yahoo! toolbar are related. Right.
I don't know why you people support these ugly companies who have no morals.

I paid attention :-)

Thanks, Jason!

Jack
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jjaj wrote: "I don't know why you people support these ugly companies who have no morals. "

I'm sure these companies have some
ethics guiding their conduct.

That said, this business is not
about the people who regularly
converse here - it's about the
artists, labels, and final product.

Of those posters on rec.audio.pro
who are engineers(mixing, mastering,
etc), it is not their product. They are
there to fulfill the client's wishes, even
if it makes their ears bleed, or goes
against every grain of their conscience!

Got it now, Jack?
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On Wednesday, May 17, 2017 at 9:09:45 AM UTC-4, wrote:
jjaj wrote: "I don't know why you people support these ugly companies who have no morals. "

I'm sure these companies have some
ethics guiding their conduct.

That said, this business is not
about the people who regularly
converse here - it's about the
artists, labels, and final product.

Of those posters on rec.audio.pro
who are engineers(mixing, mastering,
etc), it is not their product. They are
there to fulfill the client's wishes



I see, their customer demand only Adobe products.
Nonsense. Back a couple decades ago, right here in usenet, while Photoshop people were scratching their heads, I PLEASED the customer within a 1/2 period, with GIMP. Even sent a proof. It's not software that makes people great.
Made a fast $50 :-)

Jack

, even
if it makes their ears bleed, or goes
against every grain of their conscience!

Got it now, Jack?


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On Wednesday, May 17, 2017 at 1:29:36 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wednesday, May 17, 2017 at 9:09:45 AM UTC-4, wrote:
jjaj wrote: "I don't know why you people support these ugly companies who have no morals. "

I'm sure these companies have some
ethics guiding their conduct.

That said, this business is not
about the people who regularly
converse here - it's about the
artists, labels, and final product.

Of those posters on rec.audio.pro
who are engineers(mixing, mastering,
etc), it is not their product. They are
there to fulfill the client's wishes



I see, their customer demand only Adobe products.
Nonsense. Back a couple decades ago, right here in usenet, while Photoshop people were scratching their heads, I PLEASED the customer within a 1/2 period, with GIMP. Even sent a proof. It's not software that makes people great.
Made a fast $50 :-)

Jack

, even
if it makes their ears bleed, or goes
against every grain of their conscience!

Got it now, Jack?


PDFTT
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mako wrote: "PDFTT"

Who you calling a "troll".

I just described to Jjack how
the recording business works,
and you're here calling people
trolls?

Guess someone touched a
nerve, eh Mako?
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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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wrote:
mako wrote: "PDFTT"

Who you calling a "troll".

I just described to Jjack how
the recording business works,
and you're here calling people
trolls?


Well, it's pretty clear that Jack is a troll and explaining anything to him
is completely futile.

I don't think you're a troll. I think you're sincere. But it's pretty clear
that you have no more understanding what actually goes on in the studio
than Jack does. So it is a matter of the blind leading the blind.

Guess someone touched a
nerve, eh Mako?


I think Mako is just tired of the poor S/N these days. Can you blame him?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 8:52:44 AM UTC-4, wrote:
mako wrote: "PDFTT"

Who you calling a "troll".

I just described to Jjack how
the recording business works,
and you're here calling people
trolls?

Guess someone touched a
nerve, eh Mako?


I could care less about deplorables that claim I'm a "troll".
They each know I can kick the audio behinds. They CLAIM to be Pros, but all Amateurs. Why I receive no straight answers, just guesses. Have to answer my own questions. They fear posting any audio THEY did.

We got rid of Hank, he was a BITC*.

Jack


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On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 2:26:17 PM UTC-4, Scott Dorsey wrote:
wrote:
mako wrote: "PDFTT"

Who you calling a "troll".

I just described to Jjack how
the recording business works,
and you're here calling people
trolls?


Well, it's pretty clear that Jack is a troll and explaining anything to him
is completely futile.

I don't think you're a troll. I think you're sincere. But it's pretty clear
that you have no more understanding what actually goes on in the studio
than Jack does. So it is a matter of the blind leading the blind.

Guess someone touched a
nerve, eh Mako?


I think Mako is just tired of the poor S/N these days. Can you blame him?


He can't use a kill filter? Funny, I THOUGHT he was an intelligent "engineer".

Jack

--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


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On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 8:52:44 AM UTC-4, wrote:
mako wrote: "PDFTT"

Who you calling a "troll".

I just described to Jjack how
the recording business works,
and you're here calling people
trolls?

Guess someone touched a
nerve, eh Mako?


No, it was something I wrote about the presidential election that Mark didn't like, and he quickly tagged me a troll. Someone cross-posting was pushing Bernie Sanders (Senator whose wife was busted for bank fraud) crap. Even then, I was tagged a NAZI. Other than that, no proof that we argued, no name calling.

Jack

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jjaj:

I voted for Sanders in the primary
last year. If they ran Sanders
against Trump it would have been
the most lopsided popular vote(and
electoral college) in U.S. history!
Trump would have ZERO chance
against Bernie.
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Scott Dorsey wrote: "I don't think you're a troll. I think you're sincere. But it's pretty clear
that you have no more understanding what actually goes on in the studio
than Jack does. So it is a matter of the blind leading the blind. "

What goes on... you mean the
politics? Clueless there. All
I know is that it's what the artist,
producer, or label wants, not
the engineer.

Same with the DOT: If the state
wants to reroute an eight-lane
highway over a suburban neighborhood,
the engineer's job is to argue with
the governor about how impractical it
seems; his job is make sure that
overpass uses as few columns as
possible while still ensuring the thing
won't collapse or look ugly.

I do know how to get signal through
a board and into a recorder at the
appropriate levels, if that's what you
mean by 'clueless.'
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On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 8:27:54 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote: "I don't think you're a troll. I think you're sincere. But it's pretty clear
that you have no more understanding what actually goes on in the studio
than Jack does. So it is a matter of the blind leading the blind. "

What goes on... you mean the
politics? Clueless there. All
I know is that it's what the artist,
producer, or label wants, not
the engineer.

Same with the DOT: If the state
wants to reroute an eight-lane
highway over a suburban neighborhood,
the engineer's job is to argue with
the governor about how impractical it
seems; his job is make sure that
overpass uses as few columns as
possible while still ensuring the thing
won't collapse or look ugly.

I do know how to get signal through
a board and into a recorder at the
appropriate levels, if that's what you
mean by 'clueless.'


Scott immediately didn't like me, maybe because I could see right through him.
I guess he's some Pro who sits around to answer questions in usenet, rather than aid any, ahem, customers.

Scott claimed there is no such thing as varying DC offset, yet Goldwave offers something to correct it. Scott hinted about mastering quirks, but a defunct site gave me inside information about the cause of what I seen in early CD waveforms, two (popular) Sony PCM machines were responsible. I have yet heard some CD where I'd claim a DAC was the cause of bad sound (though Scott will), but I'd quickly claim foul sounding tapes were the actual cause.

Look at Scott, someone rips a vinyl LP (posted on YouTube), and he ****es in the poster's face. Nice? No. However, that is typical of the mentality. If Scott were decent, he's download the LP rip, enhance it, and state what he believes sounds better. But, no, he's quick to criticize others.

Look, I can take the 3kHz shots, I think they're funny, but, hey, I had to know why I favored that particular band of frequency. Neil Young's Pono criticism gained me that knowledge.

Now, where is the foul mouthed attack dog named, None? Get run over? Can't resist a fire hydrant? :-)

Jack


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On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 8:18:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:
jjaj:

I voted for Sanders in the primary
last year. If they ran Sanders
against Trump it would have been
the most lopsided popular vote(and
electoral college) in U.S. history!
Trump would have ZERO chance
against Bernie.


Too OT for this group, but I appreciate you being honest.

One last thing, let's use the poster, "None" as an example. Scott claims Mark doesn't enjoy static in this group. But they seem to enjoy None's foul mouth, that DOES damage usenet groups. Yet, I'm the "troll", but I have yet seen Scott Dorsey, Mike Rivers or Mark saying ANYTHING negative about None. Go figure.

Jack

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John Williamson John Williamson is offline
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On 19/05/2017 03:56, wrote:

Look at Scott, someone rips a vinyl LP (posted on YouTube), and he ****es in the poster's face. Nice? No. However, that is typical of the mentality. If Scott were decent, he's download the LP rip, enhance it, and state what he believes sounds better. ?But, no, he's quick to criticize others.

Give Scott a copy of the LP, and time to do the work of removing surface
noise and so on, and it will come out sounding exactly the way the LP
would sound on a decent playback setup, possibly as good as the cutting
master tape did, with most of the analogue reproduction problems removed.

However, given what Youtube do to the audio on their product, there's
absolutely no point in downloading a track from there to "enhance" it,
as the information needed to make it sound like the original is just not
there. All that can be done is to do whatever you want to do, and then
people can say "What an impressively shiny turd that is."

Look, I can take the 3kHz shots, I think they're funny, but, hey, I had to know why I favored that particular band of frequency. Neil Young's Pono criticism gained me that knowledge.

You favour it becase you or your monitoring setup are partly or
completely deaf at that frequency, there is no other sensible explanation

--
Tciao for Now!

John.
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geoff wrote: "Everybody can safely simply ignore None's rants,"

Or, keep it on their killfile list, as
I suspect many do.

"as his posts do not
spread false information to uninformed readers who might otherwise be
led astray on technical or musical topics.

geoff"

Yes, but they do crash good
threads and quell good converation.


Aside geoff: Can you provide examples
of alleged "false information"?


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Phil W wrote: "Please, feed neither troll, everybody... "

You know what calling someone
else a 'troll' makes you, don't
you?
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Yet, you PROS who only appreciate money, not music, drove people back to vinyl, from CD, because YOU thought it sounded GOOD. I do hope you are proud of YOUR acomplishment!

Jack
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Randy, who used hang out here, challenged me, but his HQ format FLAC. file contained tape hiss noise, because the single version master tape is spent! Sony Music will publish anything for a buck.

Jack


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Ask the maggots behind FAKE NEWS radio. Just because they wish to destroy a civilzation, I don't care to join in.

Jack
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