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polymod polymod is offline
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Default The $5 preamp Urban Legend

Great read in the June "Recording" magazine (page 72).
Kudos to Paul J. Stamler.



Poly


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PStamler PStamler is offline
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Default The $5 preamp Urban Legend

On May 30, 10:08*am, "polymod" wrote:
Great read in the June "Recording" magazine (page 72).
Kudos to Paul J. Stamler.


Thanks for the good words.

Peace,
Paul
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drichard drichard is offline
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Default The $5 preamp Urban Legend

Hi Paul,

I don't have a subscription to Recording. Would it be possible for you
to tell me the focus of the article? The title "The $5 preamp Urban
Legend" doesn't help me much, other than to tell me it has something
to do with preamps.

Thanks,

Dean

On May 30, 12:07*pm, PStamler wrote:
On May 30, 10:08*am, "polymod" wrote:

Great read in the June "Recording" magazine (page 72).
Kudos to Paul J. Stamler.


Thanks for the good words.

Peace,
Paul


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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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Default The $5 preamp Urban Legend

drichard wrote:

I don't have a subscription to Recording. Would it be possible for you
to tell me the focus of the article? The title "The $5 preamp Urban
Legend" doesn't help me much, other than to tell me it has something
to do with preamps.


In the article, Paul describes the other costs involved in
making a $5 IC into a serviceable box that has a mic input
on one side and a line output on the other - connectors,
box, power supply, pots, switches, transformers, and other
miscellaneous components. It all comes out to be a bit over
$500 as he analyzed it, and he did his usual excellent job
of putting on the hat of a designer and manufacturer and
looking at all the little things that people who say "it's a
simple construction project" don't talk about.



--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson
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Ty Ford Ty Ford is offline
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Default The $5 preamp Urban Legend

On Sun, 30 May 2010 23:29:02 -0400, Mike Rivers wrote
(in article ):

drichard wrote:

I don't have a subscription to Recording. Would it be possible for you
to tell me the focus of the article? The title "The $5 preamp Urban
Legend" doesn't help me much, other than to tell me it has something
to do with preamps.


In the article, Paul describes the other costs involved in
making a $5 IC into a serviceable box that has a mic input
on one side and a line output on the other - connectors,
box, power supply, pots, switches, transformers, and other
miscellaneous components. It all comes out to be a bit over
$500 as he analyzed it, and he did his usual excellent job
of putting on the hat of a designer and manufacturer and
looking at all the little things that people who say "it's a
simple construction project" don't talk about.


Ah, so it isn't really a $5 preamp?

The laurels of the RMP are preserved?

Regards,

Ty Ford





--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA



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vdubreeze vdubreeze is offline
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Default The $5 preamp Urban Legend

On May 31, 8:19*am, Ty Ford wrote:

Ah, so it isn't really a $5 preamp?



Well, that's why it's called an "Urban Legend" : )
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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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Default The $5 preamp Urban Legend

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message

drichard wrote:

I don't have a subscription to Recording. Would it be
possible for you to tell me the focus of the article?
The title "The $5 preamp Urban Legend" doesn't help me
much, other than to tell me it has something to do with
preamps.


In the article, Paul describes the other costs involved in
making a $5 IC into a serviceable box that has a mic input
on one side and a line output on the other - connectors,
box, power supply, pots, switches, transformers, and other
miscellaneous components. It all comes out to be a bit
over $500 as he analyzed it, and he did his usual
excellent job of putting on the hat of a designer and
manufacturer and looking at all the little things that
people who say "it's a simple construction project" don't
talk about.


It's pretty incredible that some people do manage to build a servicable
preamp with all those things; connectors, box, power supply, switches and
other miscellaneous components for more like $50 than $500. I'm specifically
thinking of the Rolls MP13.

Just about *everybody* can build a fairly servicable mixer with from 8 to 16
mic inputs for $500.


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Default The $5 preamp Urban Legend

On May 31, 8:52*pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message





drichard wrote:


I don't have a subscription to Recording. Would it be
possible for you to tell me the focus of the article?
The title "The $5 preamp Urban Legend" doesn't help me
much, other than to tell me it has something to do with
preamps.


In the article, Paul describes the other costs involved in
making a $5 IC into a serviceable box that has a mic input
on one side and a line output on the other - connectors,
box, power supply, pots, switches, transformers, and other
miscellaneous components. It all comes out to be a bit
over $500 as he analyzed it, and he did his usual
excellent job of putting on the hat of a designer and
manufacturer and looking at all the little things that
people who say "it's a simple construction project" don't
talk about.


It's pretty incredible that some people do manage to build a servicable
preamp with all those things; connectors, box, power supply, switches and
other miscellaneous components for more like $50 than $500. I'm specifically
thinking *of the Rolls MP13.

Just about *everybody* can build a fairly servicable mixer with from 8 to 16
mic inputs for $500.


Well, a *usable* mixer. *Servicable* is the thing it's not -- and it's
not likely to last more than a couple of years.

Peace,
Paul
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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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Default The $5 preamp Urban Legend

Arny Krueger wrote:

It's pretty incredible that some people do manage to build a servicable
preamp with all those things; connectors, box, power supply, switches and
other miscellaneous components for more like $50 than $500. I'm specifically
thinking of the Rolls MP13.


Sure - no transformers (or worse, crummy transformers), wall
wart power, and most important, mass production. You can buy
a preamp-sized case with no holes in it for $10-15 and hack
it out, but if you make a drawing and send it to a sheet
metal shop for punching (for neat, round holes exactly where
you want them) it'll cost $50 just for that. The
manufacturer who turns out $50 preamps by the thousands gets
the same case made in China for about a dollar.


--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson
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Default The $5 preamp Urban Legend

"PStamler" wrote in message

On May 31, 8:52 pm, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message





drichard wrote:


I don't have a subscription to Recording. Would it be
possible for you to tell me the focus of the article?
The title "The $5 preamp Urban Legend" doesn't help me
much, other than to tell me it has something to do with
preamps.


In the article, Paul describes the other costs involved
in making a $5 IC into a serviceable box that has a mic
input on one side and a line output on the other -
connectors, box, power supply, pots, switches,
transformers, and other miscellaneous components. It
all comes out to be a bit over $500 as he analyzed it,
and he did his usual excellent job of putting on the
hat of a designer and manufacturer and looking at all
the little things that people who say "it's a simple
construction project" don't talk about.


It's pretty incredible that some people do manage to
build a servicable preamp with all those things;
connectors, box, power supply, switches and other
miscellaneous components for more like $50 than $500.
I'm specifically thinking of the Rolls MP13.


Just about *everybody* can build a fairly servicable
mixer with from 8 to 16 mic inputs for $500.


Well, a *usable* mixer. *Servicable* is the thing it's
not -- and it's not likely to last more than a couple of
years.


I know that some people are afraid of low cost audio products, but those of
us who have to live in that world know that it is not nearly as bad as some
make it out to be.

$500 a channel is a very salty number to beat.

If you want to believe that you have to spend that kind of money to avoid
products that only last a couple of years, well it's your money.

If you want to give that as your final answer on a public forum, then you
may have to contend with a ton of people who know better from practical
experience.

I think my MP13 is about 5 years old and keeps on working, its knock-about
life not withstanding. My SX202 @$125 per channel may have been almost a
decade old when I picked it up on EBay, and that had to be 6-7 years ago.
It still works and it is about as servicable as they come.

There's no doubt that you can pay too little for audio gear, but diminishing
returns is a very strong rule.




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"Mike Rivers" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:

It's pretty incredible that some people do manage to
build a servicable preamp with all those things;
connectors, box, power supply, switches and other
miscellaneous components for more like $50 than $500.
I'm specifically thinking of the Rolls MP13.


Sure - no transformers (or worse, crummy transformers),


No transformers. In my world that's good news at any price.

wall wart power,


You can easily spend ca. $500 and still have a wall wart.

and most important, mass production.


When you sell for that much less, finding the prerequisite mass market is
far easier.

Remember, the OP was mic preamps whose basic active component is a $5 mic
preamp chip. That leaves out top-of-the-line products in the dust. They are
OT and typically heavily discrete.

Also, the SOTA $5 mic preamp chip of 2010 is a pretty heavy dude!

You can buy a preamp-sized case with no holes in it for
$10-15 and hack it out, but if you make a drawing and
send it to a sheet metal shop for punching (for neat,
round holes exactly where you want them) it'll cost $50
just for that.


If the topic is why you don't want to do it yourself, then I'm into that.
I've home-brewed a ton of audio gear starting when I was about 11. Most were
my designs as well.

I've received the *ultimate* complement for some of my audio projects -
other professionals borrowed some of them and used them for a decade or so
before giving them back! ;-)

I've also personally designed and built more items and more dollar value in
electronics gear than just about anybody you know, but that reaches outside
of audio.

That all said, the first question anybody should answer is "Where do I get a
good commercial product that does that?".

The manufacturer who turns out $50 preamps
by the thousands gets the same case made in China for
about a dollar.


And that is life in the big city. ;-)


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On Jun 1, 7:06*am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"PStamler" wrote in message





On May 31, 8:52 pm, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message




drichard wrote:


I don't have a subscription to Recording. Would it be
possible for you to tell me the focus of the article?
The title "The $5 preamp Urban Legend" doesn't help me
much, other than to tell me it has something to do with
preamps.


In the article, Paul describes the other costs involved
in making a $5 IC into a serviceable box that has a mic
input on one side and a line output on the other -
connectors, box, power supply, pots, switches,
transformers, and other miscellaneous components. It
all comes out to be a bit over $500 as he analyzed it,
and he did his usual excellent job of putting on the
hat of a designer and manufacturer and looking at all
the little things that people who say "it's a simple
construction project" don't talk about.


It's pretty incredible that some people do manage to
build a servicable preamp with all those things;
connectors, box, power supply, switches and other
miscellaneous components for more like $50 than $500.
I'm specifically thinking of the Rolls MP13.
Just about *everybody* can build a fairly servicable
mixer with from 8 to 16 mic inputs for $500.


Well, a *usable* mixer. *Servicable* is the thing it's
not -- and it's not likely to last more than a couple of
years.


I know that some people are afraid of low cost audio products, but those of
us who have to live in that world know that it is not nearly as bad as some
make it out to be.

$500 a channel is a very salty number to beat.

If you want to believe that you have to spend that kind of money to avoid
products that only last a couple of years, well it's your money.

If you want to give that as your final answer on a public forum, then you
may have to contend with a ton of people who know better from practical
experience.


As he often does, Arny shifts the goal posts with every sentence.

I said that for $500 a mixer would be usable but not serviceable --
which is true of all the cheap mixers; the labor costs for disassembly
alone end up being more than the mixer is worth.

So Arny shifts gears to talking about stuff that's $500 per channel.
Which is a whole 'nother ballgame.

I think my MP13 is about 5 years old and keeps on working, its knock-about
life not withstanding. *My SX202 @$125 per channel may have been almost a
decade old when I picked it up on EBay, and that had to be 6-7 years ago.
It still works and it is about as servicable as they come.


Uh-huh. It's not $50 per channel, which is what we were originally
talking about. And Arny knows that. There are very few products made
like the SX202 anymore, and none for $50 or $100. The only way you can
make a preamp to sell for $50 is (a) 100% automated board assembly,
which practically speaking means all surface-mount technology, which
means repair by replacing components is economically unfeasible; (b)
very, *very* cheap pots and switches, which will be noisy in a year or
two, depending on where you live and how often you use the box.

Peace,
Paul
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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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Default The $5 preamp Urban Legend

Arny Krueger wrote:

I know that some people are afraid of low cost audio products, but those of
us who have to live in that world know that it is not nearly as bad as some
make it out to be.

$500 a channel is a very salty number to beat.


You need a good sense of who wrote the article. Several
years back, Paul wrote about the $50 mic preamp, referring
to a Mackie mixer, and according to him (and just about
everybody else) it was darn good. He also wrote a DIY
article in three parts for a mic preamp that cost about
$2,000 in parts. He knows both ends of the scale, and I
thought he treated the "$5 mic preamp" pretty fairly.

Whether you're a do-it-yourselfer or a manufacturer, you can
always take shortcuts to make something cheaper. One of the
best ways is to not pay professional rates for hand labor,
either free building it yourself or investing heavily in
industrial design and having it built in China for a few
bucks an hour.

You can get a bargain in something second hand that hasn't
hit the vintage market yet, or you can roll your own and
have something that nobody else has. .




--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson
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"PStamler" wrote in message

On Jun 1, 7:06 am, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"PStamler" wrote in message




On May 31, 8:52 pm, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


"Mike Rivers" wrote in message


drichard wrote:


I don't have a subscription to Recording. Would it be
possible for you to tell me the focus of the article?
The title "The $5 preamp Urban Legend" doesn't help
me much, other than to tell me it has something to
do with preamps.


In the article, Paul describes the other costs
involved in making a $5 IC into a serviceable box
that has a mic input on one side and a line output on
the other - connectors, box, power supply, pots,
switches, transformers, and other miscellaneous
components. It all comes out to be a bit over $500 as
he analyzed it, and he did his usual excellent job of
putting on the hat of a designer and manufacturer and
looking at all the little things that people who say
"it's a simple construction project" don't talk about.


It's pretty incredible that some people do manage to
build a servicable preamp with all those things;
connectors, box, power supply, switches and other
miscellaneous components for more like $50 than $500.
I'm specifically thinking of the Rolls MP13.
Just about *everybody* can build a fairly servicable
mixer with from 8 to 16 mic inputs for $500.


Well, a *usable* mixer. *Servicable* is the thing it's
not -- and it's not likely to last more than a couple of
years.


I know that some people are afraid of low cost audio
products, but those of us who have to live in that world
know that it is not nearly as bad as some make it out to
be.

$500 a channel is a very salty number to beat.

If you want to believe that you have to spend that kind
of money to avoid products that only last a couple of
years, well it's your money.

If you want to give that as your final answer on a
public forum, then you may have to contend with a ton of
people who know better from practical experience.


As he often does, Arny shifts the goal posts with every
sentence.


As Pual often does, he is ignorant of his own shifty games.

I said that for $500 a mixer would be usable but not
serviceable -- which is true of all the cheap mixers; the
labor costs for disassembly alone end up being more than
the mixer is worth.


I did a little checking around and failed to find even one pro audio shop
that wanted $500 to do an inspection of a $500 mixer.

I've taken a few of them apart myself, and it isn't rocket science. I could
see where someone who didn't want to deal with that class of customer or
product might intentionally price themselves out of the particular
marketplace, but that's an administrative choice, not a technical necessity.

So Arny shifts gears to talking about stuff that's $500
per channel. Which is a whole 'nother ballgame.


No matter what libelous false claims you want to make Paul, I didn't invent
the $500 number. It appears that you have forgotten how to read because the
name of the person who introduced the $500 number is near the top of this
post. Look for the following sentence:

" It all comes out to be a bit over $500 as he (Paul Stamler) analyzed
it..."

Paul, since your literacy module seems to have gone missing, I'll spell it
out for you - the author of the $500 number is not me but rather is one Mike
Rivers, the date was 5/30/2010 and the time was 11:29 PM EDT. In short
Paul, you owe me a public apology. I'm not holding my breath!

I think my MP13 is about 5 years old and keeps on
working, its knock-about life not withstanding. My SX202
@$125 per channel may have been almost a decade old when
I picked it up on EBay, and that had to be 6-7 years
ago. It still works and it is about as servicable as
they come.


Uh-huh. It's not $50 per channel, which is what we were
originally talking about.


No Paul, it was Mike Rivers talking about $5 chips and $500 total cost. The
$50 number was chosen by me, who in a fit of diabolical dishonesty noticed
that $50 was exactly one order of magnitude *more* than $5 and one order of
magnitude *less* than $500. Again, neither the $5 nor the $500 was
orginated by me. The $5 title came from your magzine article, and the $500
number was estmated from your article by one Mike Rivers.

And Arny knows that. There are
very few products made like the SX202 anymore, and none
for $50 or $100.


Regrettably, I loaned my SX 202 to a friend so that he could do some speaker
testing with some ECM 8000s. Otherwise I would take a look inside and see
whether I would find SMT parts and thus have the opportunity to have a
hearty laugh at your expense, Paul. ;-) I've looked inside in the past, but
I don't remember too many details as I've looked inside many a mic preamp
box since then.

The only way you can make a preamp to
sell for $50 is (a) 100% automated board assembly, which
practically speaking means all surface-mount technology,
which means repair by replacing components is
economically unfeasible;


So here we see a repeat of the urban myth that SMT parts are totally
non-replacable. Paul, can't you do better than that? Many of us know better!

(b) very, *very* cheap pots


Interesting that you mention cheap pots, as a friend's SX 202 ended up
needing a pot replacement. I don't know what got repaired in mine as I
bought it used. However, it appears to me that the tapers of the two channel
gain pots of both of our SX 202s may differ from the one for the other
channel. Some of us have learned that low prices don't guarantee disaster,
and higher prices don't guarantee more freedom from disaster.

...pots and switches, which will be noisy in a year or two, depending
on where you live and how often you use the box.


I've got a pair of ADA 8000s that are now over 4 years old and are used
several times a week. If memory serves, 8 pots per box. Not a noisy pot in
the lot. This would be 8 mic preamps per box with an average street price of
$240 or about $30 each...



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Arny Krueger wrote:

I did a little checking around and failed to find even one pro audio shop
that wanted $500 to do an inspection of a $500 mixer.


There's lots of things you can't find on the Internet. Who
would even ask such a question? A shop would probably quote
something like $75 (minimum shop rate) to take a look and
give an estimate for repair. I doubt that anyone who got a
quote of more than $200 would leave it for repair, but
rather, would sell it on eBay ("worked fine last year") and
buy a new and probaby better mixer for a little more than
the cost of repair.

Just the other day, I heard from someone who got a quote
from a shop with a good reputation of $200 minimum for
repairing his Mackie hard disk recorder, and that was
without even looking at it. And an HDR24/96 is a whole lot
easier to work on than, say, a Mackie VLZ series mixer.

I've taken a few of them apart myself, and it isn't rocket science. I could
see where someone who didn't want to deal with that class of customer or
product might intentionally price themselves out of the particular
marketplace, but that's an administrative choice, not a technical necessity.


But it's still a problem - if you don't tackle the job
yourself, you either pay the price or walk away. Still,
$85/hour is not an unreasonable rate these days. Given that
to get to certain components in many inexpensive one-board
mixers it's necessary to take the whole thing apart, just
getting to both sides of the circuit board and putting it
back together again can easily take an hour if you know
where all the hidden screws and nuts are. And then if you
need to do any troubleshooting, you have to cobble up a way
to power it up and connect signals to it. If everything
connects to the board with ribbon cables, either you have to
prop things up so you can plug in the cables dangling from
the chassis or you need a test fixture. That's something
that a shop that does a lot of work on a particular product
line might have built, but they have to pay for that labor
out of repairs to that product. Honestly, other than
replacing a fuse, I can't see any repair on a "non-fixable"
mixer costing less than about $150.

Paul, since your literacy module seems to have gone missing, I'll spell it
out for you - the author of the $500 number is not me but rather is one Mike
Rivers, the date was 5/30/2010 and the time was 11:29 PM EDT. In short
Paul, you owe me a public apology. I'm not holding my breath!


Don't get me and my feeble memory into the middle of this.
Get the magazine and read the article yourself.

So here we see a repeat of the urban myth that SMT parts are totally
non-replacable. Paul, can't you do better than that? Many of us know better!


Surface mounted parts are certainly replaceable. Capacitors
and resistors are pretty easy to replace if you can find
them, identify them, and purchase the replacement part. A
sample kit from ChipQuik and a low wattage soldering iron
with a small tip will handle the job, and most people who
have a reasonable amount of repair experience can do it the
first time without causing any further damage. Replacing
ICs with close to 100 connections is a little more
difficult, however, and takes skill, experience, and in many
cases, special equipment.
A shop that fixes hard-wired guitar amplifiers isn't
equipped to do that.

I've got a pair of ADA 8000s that are now over 4 years old and are used
several times a week. If memory serves, 8 pots per box. Not a noisy pot in
the lot. This would be 8 mic preamps per box with an average street price of
$240 or about $30 each...


I've had a Soundcraft 600 console for nearly 25 years.
Nearly every pot, switch, and fader is noisy. It cost $7600
and has 24 mic input channels. Those are $316.67 preamps
(inflate that money if you dare). There's no way I'm going
to replace as many parts as needed to make it like new
again. A 16-channel Mackie Onyx costs about as much as four
channels, and sounds better.


--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson


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Arny has descended to the level of personal attack again. Not worth
the energy to reply.

Peace,
Paul
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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"PStamler" wrote in message


I said that for $500 a mixer would be usable but not
serviceable -- which is true of all the cheap mixers; the
labor costs for disassembly alone end up being more than
the mixer is worth.


I did a little checking around and failed to find even one pro audio shop
that wanted $500 to do an inspection of a $500 mixer.



You also failed to realize that by the time a $500 mixer gets to a repair
shop its actual value has dropped significantly, which makes Paul's
observation valid.


I've taken a few of them apart myself, and it isn't rocket science. I
could see where someone who didn't want to deal with that class of
customer or product might intentionally price themselves out of the
particular marketplace, but that's an administrative choice, not a
technical necessity.



Or maybe they have done enough of it to properly assess the costs and risks
involved.

Predrag


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Default The $5 preamp Urban Legend


"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

I've home-brewed a ton of audio gear starting when I was about 11. Most
were my designs as well.

I've received the *ultimate* complement for some of my audio projects -
other professionals borrowed some of them and used them for a decade or so
before giving them back! ;-)

I've also personally designed and built more items and more dollar value
in electronics gear than just about anybody you know, but that reaches
outside of audio.



Not to mention thousands of professional recording gigs...


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hank alrich hank alrich is offline
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Default The $5 preamp Urban Legend

Predrag Trpkov wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

I've home-brewed a ton of audio gear starting when I was about 11. Most
were my designs as well.

I've received the *ultimate* complement for some of my audio projects -
other professionals borrowed some of them and used them for a decade or so
before giving them back! ;-)

I've also personally designed and built more items and more dollar value
in electronics gear than just about anybody you know, but that reaches
outside of audio.



Not to mention thousands of professional recording gigs...


And since he has no idea who many or any of us might know, it's a same
old story.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.html
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShai...withDougHarman
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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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Default The $5 preamp Urban Legend

"Predrag Trpkov" wrote in
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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"PStamler" wrote in message


I said that for $500 a mixer would be usable but not
serviceable -- which is true of all the cheap mixers;
the labor costs for disassembly alone end up being more
than the mixer is worth.


I did a little checking around and failed to find even
one pro audio shop that wanted $500 to do an inspection
of a $500 mixer.


You also failed to realize that by the time a $500 mixer
gets to a repair shop its actual value has dropped
significantly, which makes Paul's observation valid.


You seem to be making unfounded assumptions. I found that most pro audio
shops would charge $75-150 for an estimate. The cost of the actual repair
could be just about anything because we can't predict what's wrong.

I just paid $2,500 to repair a video projector that still had a replacement
value of over $5,000. Obtaining a professionally-refurbished large venue
video projector that is a few years old with 2 new bulbs for $2,500 is not a
bad deal. Similar costs and benefits on a percentage basis might apply to
consoles.

I've taken a few of them apart myself, and it isn't
rocket science. I could see where someone who didn't
want to deal with that class of customer or product
might intentionally price themselves out of the
particular marketplace, but that's an administrative
choice, not a technical necessity.


Or maybe they have done enough of it to properly assess
the costs and risks involved.


That's essentially what I said. For example, it is pretty obvious that many
professional audio repair shops go out of their way to *not* deal with DJ's,
for example.


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