I'm in the second day of a 5 day stay at the great Eastman School of
Music in NY. What a wonderful place this is! Highly talented,
motivated, and most importantly, super hard working students all over
the place attending rehearsals and classes in much time in the practice
rooms. The place fairly "reeks" of the spirits of Howard Hanson,
Frederick Fennell, Emery Remmington, Donald Hunsberger, Joseph
Schwantner, John Marcelles, Barry Snider, Walter Hartley, Ray Wright,
and so many other gifted faculty, past and present. And past students
like Frederick Fennell, Donald Hunsberger, Renee Fleming, Gordon and
Mitch Peters, Dale Clevenger, Mitch Miller, William Warfield, Nicolas
Slonimsky, Bonita Boyd, Tom Stacey, and on and on, left their blood,
sweat, and tears on those studio floors. All of this coupled with the
best academic music library in the world, and two world class concert
halls, adds up to a very, very special place.
This is my third visit there; the first without the much missed Maestro
Fennell.

A conversation today with Mark Scatterday, the present conductor of the
much recorded Eastman Wind Ensemble, brought to me a reality of the
present-day classical music recording business: It's really pretty
bleak out there. This ensemble, which has recorded over 40 albums for
Mercury, DGG, Philips, Warner, Sony, and others, basically can't get a
recording released by any of the "majors". Virtually every classical
recording, other than super stars like Yo Yo Ma and cross over acts,
lose money. I know that we all know this intellectually, but it was
kind of brought home to me this week. If we lose this niche of the
record business, we will all be so much poorer for it.

On Wed, 08 Feb 2006 01:42:07 GMT, Jenn
wrote:


A conversation today with Mark Scatterday, the present conductor of the
much recorded Eastman Wind Ensemble, brought to me a reality of the
present-day classical music recording business: It's really pretty
bleak out there. This ensemble, which has recorded over 40 albums for
Mercury, DGG, Philips, Warner, Sony, and others, basically can't get a
recording released by any of the "majors". Virtually every classical
recording, other than super stars like Yo Yo Ma and cross over acts,
lose money. I know that we all know this intellectually, but it was
kind of brought home to me this week. If we lose this niche of the
record business, we will all be so much poorer for it.

That's frightening, as classical music is not so much a "niche of the
record business" as our true cultural heritage, even if few believe
it. We're watched interest in art music wither away over the last 50
years and done nothing to check it. We've watched children grow up
never hearing a note of classical music or even having it referred to
in their presence, to the point where some are so starved for an
alternative to ubiquitous rock and rap they've turned in desperation
to film music, the only serious music they're ever been exposed to.
Once there were those like Bernstein and Previn with a gift and a
passion for bringing love of art music to the young, and they did it
brilliantly. Who is there now? Who even cares that the "classical"
market is all but dead? I read 20 years ago that "in a few years" you
won't be able to buy a classical record at all. At the time this was
widely believed and accepted, yet who's done anything about it; who,
even among those with a financial stake in the industry, has lifted a
finger to interest the young in art music, or at least translate it
more to their culture and expectations? The classical music industry
has been turning inward and playing to the converted for so long that
I suggest it's too late now to do anything else.

RIP, classical music.

"paul packer" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 08 Feb 2006 01:42:07 GMT, Jenn
wrote:


A conversation today with Mark Scatterday, the present conductor of the
much recorded Eastman Wind Ensemble, brought to me a reality of the
present-day classical music recording business: It's really pretty
bleak out there. This ensemble, which has recorded over 40 albums for
Mercury, DGG, Philips, Warner, Sony, and others, basically can't get a
recording released by any of the "majors". Virtually every classical
recording, other than super stars like Yo Yo Ma and cross over acts,
lose money. I know that we all know this intellectually, but it was
kind of brought home to me this week. If we lose this niche of the
record business, we will all be so much poorer for it.

That's frightening, as classical music is not so much a "niche of the
record business" as our true cultural heritage, even if few believe
it. We're watched interest in art music wither away over the last 50
years and done nothing to check it. We've watched children grow up
never hearing a note of classical music or even having it referred to
in their presence, to the point where some are so starved for an
alternative to ubiquitous rock and rap they've turned in desperation
to film music, the only serious music they're ever been exposed to.
Once there were those like Bernstein and Previn with a gift and a
passion for bringing love of art music to the young, and they did it
brilliantly. Who is there now? Who even cares that the "classical"
market is all but dead? I read 20 years ago that "in a few years" you
won't be able to buy a classical record at all. At the time this was
widely believed and accepted, yet who's done anything about it; who,
even among those with a financial stake in the industry, has lifted a
finger to interest the young in art music, or at least translate it
more to their culture and expectations? The classical music industry
has been turning inward and playing to the converted for so long that
I suggest it's too late now to do anything else.

RIP, classical music.

We're pretty far along, but I don't think it's hopeless. My kids who've
only been lightly exposed to classical music through my own interest, have
all asked for some of it as a gift before they turned 30. My son, an
aspiring rock musician, occassionally listens to it. But I think in a
household where classical was never played at all, it would be difficult.
That's the role the public schools and church's with good choirs played in
my youth. My own family did not listen to classical music. The closest
they came was Dad's jazz and mom's infatuation with Mantovani (at least I
knew what a string instrument sounded like). But it really was my chorus
director in high school who also conducted a music appreciation class that
had the most effect on me, and that was further reinforced by the Bach and
Verdi I sang in the church choir when I was a teen. All that led to my
choice of Oberlin College for college, where I was exposed to much classical
music and became life long friends with some of the students who went on to
become professional musicians. But were it not for that choral
director......

So IMO that is where we have really let our kids down...by not supporting,
much less insisting, on a vibrant arts and music program in our school
systems. My kids were in one of the better (by academic standards) suburban
school systems in Connecticut for their elementary school years, and their
exposure to either visual arts or music was rather pathetic. If you want to
save classical music, start attending school board meetings!!!

Harry Lavo wrote:
"paul packer" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 08 Feb 2006 01:42:07 GMT, Jenn
wrote:


A conversation today with Mark Scatterday, the present conductor of the
much recorded Eastman Wind Ensemble, brought to me a reality of the
present-day classical music recording business: It's really pretty
bleak out there. This ensemble, which has recorded over 40 albums for
Mercury, DGG, Philips, Warner, Sony, and others, basically can't get a
recording released by any of the "majors". Virtually every classical
recording, other than super stars like Yo Yo Ma and cross over acts,
lose money. I know that we all know this intellectually, but it was
kind of brought home to me this week. If we lose this niche of the
record business, we will all be so much poorer for it.

Part of the problem is that the classical music recording business has
brought very little new to the table in the last 40 or 50 years that
wasn't atonal and unpleasant to listen to. Another is that, since the
classical musicians of the early and middle 20th century were at such a
peak of the art, it's often very difficult to equal, let alone improve
on the extant recordings. And a fourth, for Americans, is that
classical music is essentially European, and the Europeans have a
distressing tendency to do it better than we do-a tendency that strikes
me as normal rather than depressing.

Harry Lavo wrote:
"paul packer" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 08 Feb 2006 01:42:07 GMT, Jenn
wrote:


A conversation today with Mark Scatterday, the present conductor of the
much recorded Eastman Wind Ensemble, brought to me a reality of the
present-day classical music recording business: It's really pretty
bleak out there. This ensemble, which has recorded over 40 albums for
Mercury, DGG, Philips, Warner, Sony, and others, basically can't get a
recording released by any of the "majors". Virtually every classical
recording, other than super stars like Yo Yo Ma and cross over acts,
lose money. I know that we all know this intellectually, but it was
kind of brought home to me this week. If we lose this niche of the
record business, we will all be so much poorer for it.

Part of the problem is that the classical music recording business has
brought very little new to the table in the last 40 or 50 years that
wasn't atonal and unpleasant to listen to. Another is that, since the
classical musicians of the early and middle 20th century were at such a
peak of the art, it's often very difficult to equal, let alone improve
on the extant recordings. And a fourth, for Americans, is that
classical music is essentially European, and the Europeans have a
distressing tendency to do it better than we do-a tendency that strikes
me as normal rather than depressing.

Jenn wrote:
I'm in the second day of a 5 day stay at the great Eastman School of
Music in NY. What a wonderful place this is! Highly talented,
motivated, and most importantly, super hard working students all over
the place attending rehearsals and classes in much time in the practice
rooms. The place fairly "reeks" of the spirits of Howard Hanson,
Frederick Fennell, Emery Remmington, Donald Hunsberger, Joseph
Schwantner, John Marcelles, Barry Snider, Walter Hartley, Ray Wright,
and so many other gifted faculty, past and present. And past students
like Frederick Fennell, Donald Hunsberger, Renee Fleming, Gordon and
Mitch Peters, Dale Clevenger, Mitch Miller, William Warfield, Nicolas
Slonimsky, Bonita Boyd, Tom Stacey, and on and on, left their blood,
sweat, and tears on those studio floors. All of this coupled with the
best academic music library in the world, and two world class concert
halls, adds up to a very, very special place.
This is my third visit there; the first without the much missed Maestro
Fennell.

A conversation today with Mark Scatterday, the present conductor of the
much recorded Eastman Wind Ensemble, brought to me a reality of the
present-day classical music recording business: It's really pretty
bleak out there. This ensemble, which has recorded over 40 albums for
Mercury, DGG, Philips, Warner, Sony, and others, basically can't get a
recording released by any of the "majors". Virtually every classical
recording, other than super stars like Yo Yo Ma and cross over acts,
lose money. I know that we all know this intellectually, but it was
kind of brought home to me this week. If we lose this niche of the
record business, we will all be so much poorer for it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your and Paul's lament will fall on deaf ears. Don't look
far- look at the new threads in this AUDIO forum just below yours. A
long quote from an IQ of 70 Limbaugh clone- ....
...I'm not talking about the views expressed- I'm talking about the
intellectual level of the writing and of whoever was so impressed by it
as to reprint it in an Audio forum. Next several threads about budget
and anything else but music or audio, Where from will the young get
exposure to better things ?
Audio? Questions about plugging Best Buy things into each other and
rehash of the ABX nonsense- .to which I plead guilty of contributing.
More evidence? Here in Vancouver when one goes to a symphony or a
chamber music concert one sees a sea of bald heads with their faithful
spouses.
Why? Do I dare to say it? In the ages past only the privileged
could afford "Culture". And with privilege went snobbery. A taste for
art was one of the class distinctions. In the West, now. more people
have access to entertainment than ever before in the written history.
And a very good thing it is. Except that: the Roman populace did not
cry for panem et poetae. They wanted "panem et circenses"- circus
gladiators and Christians thrown to the lions.
One must take the rough with the smooth.Like for instance better
teaching of science together with the teachers of English (like in my
son's school) who couldn't write a grammatical sentence if their life
depended on it.
I don't know what th answer is.
Ludovic Mirabel

"Bret Ludwig" wrote in message
oups.com...

Harry Lavo wrote:
"paul packer" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 08 Feb 2006 01:42:07 GMT, Jenn
wrote:


A conversation today with Mark Scatterday, the present conductor of the
much recorded Eastman Wind Ensemble, brought to me a reality of the
present-day classical music recording business: It's really pretty
bleak out there. This ensemble, which has recorded over 40 albums for
Mercury, DGG, Philips, Warner, Sony, and others, basically can't get a
recording released by any of the "majors". Virtually every classical
recording, other than super stars like Yo Yo Ma and cross over acts,
lose money. I know that we all know this intellectually, but it was
kind of brought home to me this week. If we lose this niche of the
record business, we will all be so much poorer for it.

Part of the problem is that the classical music recording business has
brought very little new to the table in the last 40 or 50 years that
wasn't atonal and unpleasant to listen to. Another is that, since the
classical musicians of the early and middle 20th century were at such a
peak of the art, it's often very difficult to equal, let alone improve
on the extant recordings. And a fourth, for Americans, is that
classical music is essentially European, and the Europeans have a
distressing tendency to do it better than we do-a tendency that strikes
me as normal rather than depressing.


How many different recordings of the same old stuff do we need?



--
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Clyde Slick wrote:
snip


How many different recordings of the same old stuff do we need?


I think that was his point. Except when you go back and ask how many
truly first class recordings there really are of any given symphonic or
chamber work...and how many genuinely valid interpretations, or
archetypes of interpretations there are, there some big ozone holes in
the musosphere. And there are many great works by composers who are not
as well known which exist only in mediocre performances, or mediocre
recordings of performances. And when you ad in the interest in
_correct_ performance of early music, or indeed any music not
originally scored for bog-standard instrumentation...

Bret Ludwig wrote:
Harry Lavo wrote:
"paul packer" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 08 Feb 2006 01:42:07 GMT, Jenn
wrote:


A conversation today with Mark Scatterday, the present conductor of the
much recorded Eastman Wind Ensemble, brought to me a reality of the
present-day classical music recording business: It's really pretty
bleak out there. This ensemble, which has recorded over 40 albums for
Mercury, DGG, Philips, Warner, Sony, and others, basically can't get a
recording released by any of the "majors". Virtually every classical
recording, other than super stars like Yo Yo Ma and cross over acts,
lose money. I know that we all know this intellectually, but it was
kind of brought home to me this week. If we lose this niche of the
record business, we will all be so much poorer for it.

Part of the problem is that the classical music recording business has
brought very little new to the table in the last 40 or 50 years that
wasn't atonal and unpleasant to listen to.

Absolutely agree. Apart from neglect, the arts community has helped
slit it's own throat by willfully and stubbornly giving the public what
it DOESN'T want, something affirmed by the recent huge swing by young
composers back to tonal music. Atonality was never going to lead
anywhere except to the public's abandonment of classical music, and so
it was.


Another is that, since the
classical musicians of the early and middle 20th century were at such a
peak of the art, it's often very difficult to equal, let alone improve
on the extant recordings. And a fourth, for Americans, is that
classical music is essentially European, and the Europeans have a
distressing tendency to do it better than we do-a tendency that strikes
me as normal rather than depressing.

Maybe classical music has its roots in Europe but the US has a fine
tradition of classical music going back to before the Civil War. And
I've no doubt there are any number of young composers in the New
World--maybe currently earning their living writing film or similar
music--who would love the opportunity to be heard in the concert hall.
Plus there's a wealth of tonal music from the old stalwarts who
beavered on through the barren years of atonality-Barber, Diamond,
Harris and William Schuman, not to mention wonderful emigres like
Miklos Rozsa, practically all of whose output is currently available on
CD. I don't believe the problem is lack of listenihng material.

Accessory Section 8 wrote:
Clyde Slick wrote:
snip


How many different recordings of the same old stuff do we need?


I think that was his point. Except when you go back and ask how many
truly first class recordings there really are of any given symphonic or
chamber work...and how many genuinely valid interpretations, or
archetypes of interpretations there are, there some big ozone holes in
the musosphere. And there are many great works by composers who are not
as well known which exist only in mediocre performances, or mediocre
recordings of performances. And when you ad in the interest in
_correct_ performance of early music, or indeed any music not
originally scored for bog-standard instrumentation...

I agree entirely. Awful recordings of classical music abound- there
is still some room to fill there.
I disagree with some others that "modern" classics are at fault. On
the contrary from my many years experience here on the Pacific
North-West it seems to me that local Symphony Orchestras are stuck in
the 19th. century. I do not know what anyone's definition of "atonal"
is but if it includes Bartok, Stravinski, Shostakovich, Webern, Berg
and Prokofiev than give me more of it, old as I am. I may be wrong but
it seems to me that the XXth and XXt st century young would respond to
composers closer to them in spirit. I don't advocate sending Beethoven
to the loft but a judicious mixture might help.
But twist as one will - it will still pay better to produce
another forgettable, puffed up rapper with rhythmic boom-boom-boom
accompaniment than a wonderful recording of Schubert quartets.
Ludovic Mirabel

From: "Clyde Slick" - Find messages by this
author
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 23:13:25 -0500

How many different recordings of the same old stuff do we need?

I have about 20 recordings of one of my favorite works: Beethoven's 6th
(Pastoral) Symphony.

Each is different. Some composers seem to rush through it, other
conductors emphasize details that others don't. When I see interesting
conductor/orchestra combinations, I buy them.

I think that part of the problem is that this country would rather
spend 55% of its budget on arms, which amounts to more than the rest of
the world combined spends. We're addicted to oil and bullets.

Insert counter argument from nob and his followers on why culture and
art are not areas government support is necessary...

On 7 Feb 2006 19:30:29 -0800, wrote:

Your and Paul's lament will fall on deaf ears. Don't look
far- look at the new threads in this AUDIO forum just below yours. A
long quote from an IQ of 70 Limbaugh clone- ....
..I'm not talking about the views expressed- I'm talking about the
intellectual level of the writing and of whoever was so impressed by it
as to reprint it in an Audio forum. Next several threads about budget
and anything else but music or audio, Where from will the young get
exposure to better things ?

I agree the standard is low everywhere, Ludovic. What especially
worries me is not that the young are choosing poorly, but that no
choice exists for them; that a person can go from cradle to grave, and
many do, never hearing a note of serious music (other than
incidentally in movies and video games, where it passes unnoticed) or
reading a word of quality literature. The old audio saying, "Garbage
in, garbage out" is unfortunately only too true in life, and given the
cultural food we as a society feed the young these days can we wonder
......well, you see my point.

Classical music has disappeared from the only record store in my local
mall. They had a good supply of Naxos, but of course no one bought
them but me so they ditched them. Now it's all variations or rock and
rap and something called "Alternative", though I doubt whatever that
is that it's any real alternative.

Audio? Questions about plugging Best Buy things into each other and
rehash of the ABX nonsense- .to which I plead guilty of contributing.
More evidence? Here in Vancouver when one goes to a symphony or a
chamber music concert one sees a sea of bald heads with their faithful
spouses.

Absolutely, playing to the converted, to the same dwindling band of
conservatives, who live for the next Beethoven or Tchaikovsky concert
and shiver in dread that someone might program Shostakovich or Vaughan
Williams.

Why? Do I dare to say it? In the ages past only the privileged
could afford "Culture". And with privilege went snobbery. A taste for
art was one of the class distinctions. In the West, now. more people
have access to entertainment than ever before in the written history.
And a very good thing it is. Except that: the Roman populace did not
cry for panem et poetae. They wanted "panem et circenses"- circus
gladiators and Christians thrown to the lions.

I hate to be elitist but it's hard not to agree with your sentiment.
Who was it who said, "No one ever went broke pandering to the lowest
common denominator?" And boy have they pandered! But people can only
rightly choose when presented with a choice. If you present them with
poetry or games, they'll probably choose games, but at least that's a
choice, whose consequences they have to live with. As it is at the
moment the choice (?) is between games, games and more games.

I recently told a 15 year old that I liked classical music. He said,
"What? You mean like The Beatles?" Enough said.


One must take the rough with the smooth.Like for instance better
teaching of science together with the teachers of English (like in my
son's school) who couldn't write a grammatical sentence if their life
depended on it.
I don't know what th answer is.
Ludovic Mirabel

Pity. I was hoping you might have the answer. :-)

"Accessory Section 8" wrote in message
oups.com...

Clyde Slick wrote:
snip


How many different recordings of the same old stuff do we need?


I think that was his point. Except when you go back and ask how many
truly first class recordings there really are of any given symphonic or
chamber work...and how many genuinely valid interpretations, or
archetypes of interpretations there are, there some big ozone holes in
the musosphere. And there are many great works by composers who are not
as well known which exist only in mediocre performances, or mediocre
recordings of performances. And when you ad in the interest in
_correct_ performance of early music, or indeed any music not
originally scored for bog-standard instrumentation...



Your searching for nits in the few
remaining nooks and crannies.



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wrote in message
ups.com...

I do not know what anyone's definition of "atonal"
is but if it includes Bartok, Stravinski, Shostakovich, Webern, Berg
and Prokofiev than give me more of it, old as I am.

Berg is completely unlistenable. I prefer Yoko's screaching.



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"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" wrote in message
oups.com...
From: "Clyde Slick" - Find messages by this
author
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 23:13:25 -0500

How many different recordings of the same old stuff do we need?

I have about 20 recordings of one of my favorite works: Beethoven's 6th
(Pastoral) Symphony.


Horrors!!!!!
We have something in common!

I like Rene Liebowitz, form the Readers Digest box set.




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In article ,
"Clyde Slick" wrote:

wrote in message
ups.com...

I do not know what anyone's definition of "atonal"
is but if it includes Bartok, Stravinski, Shostakovich, Webern, Berg
and Prokofiev than give me more of it, old as I am.

Berg is completely unlistenable. I prefer Yoko's screaching.

I call BS on the first bit. Go listen to the Piano Sonata Opus 1
(Brendel, Pollini, or Cherkassky) and get back to me.

Stephen

"Jenn" wrote in message
...
I'm in the second day of a 5 day stay at the great Eastman School of
Music in NY. What a wonderful place this is! Highly talented,
motivated, and most importantly, super hard working students all over
the place attending rehearsals and classes in much time in the practice
rooms. The place fairly "reeks" of the spirits of Howard Hanson,
Frederick Fennell, Emery Remmington, Donald Hunsberger, Joseph
Schwantner, John Marcelles, Barry Snider, Walter Hartley, Ray Wright,
and so many other gifted faculty, past and present. And past students
like Frederick Fennell, Donald Hunsberger, Renee Fleming, Gordon and
Mitch Peters, Dale Clevenger, Mitch Miller, William Warfield, Nicolas
Slonimsky, Bonita Boyd, Tom Stacey, and on and on, left their blood,
sweat, and tears on those studio floors. All of this coupled with the
best academic music library in the world, and two world class concert
halls, adds up to a very, very special place.
This is my third visit there; the first without the much missed Maestro
Fennell.

A conversation today with Mark Scatterday, the present conductor of the
much recorded Eastman Wind Ensemble, brought to me a reality of the
present-day classical music recording business: It's really pretty
bleak out there. This ensemble, which has recorded over 40 albums for
Mercury, DGG, Philips, Warner, Sony, and others, basically can't get a
recording released by any of the "majors". Virtually every classical
recording, other than super stars like Yo Yo Ma and cross over acts,
lose money. I know that we all know this intellectually, but it was
kind of brought home to me this week. If we lose this niche of the
record business, we will all be so much poorer for it.

There will always be a market for classical music, but it has never been
very large compared to pop music. Most likely there will be newer ways to
distribute the music you like, very likely through the internet, it's
already being done as I'm sure you are aware. I think that classical music
lovers may not have the same technical skills with that medium and will have
to upgrade them in order to keep up.

Another factor is that with classical music you have a limited supply of
"product," whereas pop music has a new batch of people fresh out their
garage or prefab groups created by record companies to constantly put out
new product, that is trying to copy the older product, etc., etc.

Yet another facor may be the lack of quality education and lack of money for
programs that would create a larger audience for that kind of music. Money
has to be spent in larger amounts just to get kids to be able to read, write
and compute. There are also other media and ways for people to pass their
time such as electronic games and more niche programs on TV. Culture
changes, not always for the better.

"Jenn" wrote in message


A conversation today with Mark Scatterday, the present
conductor of the much recorded Eastman Wind Ensemble,
brought to me a reality of the present-day classical
music recording business: It's really pretty bleak out
there. This ensemble, which has recorded over 40 albums
for Mercury, DGG, Philips, Warner, Sony, and others,
basically can't get a recording released by any of the
"majors".

Nothing is forever.

Virtually every classical recording, other
than super stars like Yo Yo Ma and cross over acts, lose
money. I know that we all know this intellectually, but
it was kind of brought home to me this week. If we lose
this niche of the record business, we will all be so much
poorer for it.

The first time I heard a young person say something like "Yes, its classical
music, like the Rolling Stones" I thought it was a joke. It's now the
current reality.

"MINe 109" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Clyde Slick" wrote:

wrote in message
ups.com...

I do not know what anyone's definition of "atonal"
is but if it includes Bartok, Stravinski, Shostakovich, Webern, Berg
and Prokofiev than give me more of it, old as I am.

Berg is completely unlistenable. I prefer Yoko's screaching.

I call BS on the first bit. Go listen to the Piano Sonata Opus 1
(Brendel, Pollini, or Cherkassky) and get back to me.



hopefullt better than Wozzek or LuLu



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Clyde Slick wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

I do not know what anyone's definition of "atonal"
is but if it includes Bartok, Stravinski, Shostakovich, Webern, Berg
and Prokofiev than give me more of it, old as I am.

Berg is completely unlistenable. I prefer Yoko's screaching.



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Interesting to know your likes and dislikes. Unfortunately hard
to argue about meaningfully. My brain closes to Mahler and Brahms- my
loss no doubt. Not to mention Berio, Nono and the excruciating boredom
by the grace of Glass. Somebody loves them all though.
Ludovic Mirabel.

In article ,
"Clyde Slick" wrote:

"MINe 109" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Clyde Slick" wrote:

wrote in message
ups.com...

I do not know what anyone's definition of "atonal"
is but if it includes Bartok, Stravinski, Shostakovich, Webern, Berg
and Prokofiev than give me more of it, old as I am.

Berg is completely unlistenable. I prefer Yoko's screaching.

I call BS on the first bit. Go listen to the Piano Sonata Opus 1
(Brendel, Pollini, or Cherkassky) and get back to me.



hopefullt better than Wozzek or LuLu

Less icky, plot-wise.

Stephen

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message


A conversation today with Mark Scatterday, the present
conductor of the much recorded Eastman Wind Ensemble,
brought to me a reality of the present-day classical
music recording business: It's really pretty bleak out
there. This ensemble, which has recorded over 40 albums
for Mercury, DGG, Philips, Warner, Sony, and others,
basically can't get a recording released by any of the
"majors".

Nothing is forever.

Sad to say.

Virtually every classical recording, other
than super stars like Yo Yo Ma and cross over acts, lose
money. I know that we all know this intellectually, but
it was kind of brought home to me this week. If we lose
this niche of the record business, we will all be so much
poorer for it.

The first time I heard a young person say something like "Yes, its classical
music, like the Rolling Stones" I thought it was a joke. It's now the
current reality.

Sad, but true. I'm doing all that I can in my little part of the world
to battle that. Today I heard part of a youth concert by the Rochester
Philharmonic. 3200 kids a day are being bussed in to the Eastman
Theater on three days this week. The kids look and seem enthralled.
Where this kind of activity takes place, it makes a difference.
Rochester, an interesting mix of a "blue collar" and "high tech" town,
supports classical music in a big way.

On Wed, 08 Feb 2006 16:53:13 GMT, wrote:


Another factor is that with classical music you have a limited supply of
"product," whereas pop music has a new batch of people fresh out their
garage or prefab groups created by record companies to constantly put out
new product, that is trying to copy the older product, etc., etc.

Not true, Mike. There are vast amounts of neglected music from the
last 100 years or so waiting to be discovered, plus plenty of young
composers ready to start composing tomorrow if there's a market and
money. As someone said once about atonalism, "There's still much more
to be said in the key of C."

On 7 Feb 2006 23:53:01 -0800, wrote:


Accessory Section 8 wrote:
Clyde Slick wrote:
snip


How many different recordings of the same old stuff do we need?


I think that was his point. Except when you go back and ask how many
truly first class recordings there really are of any given symphonic or
chamber work...and how many genuinely valid interpretations, or
archetypes of interpretations there are, there some big ozone holes in
the musosphere. And there are many great works by composers who are not
as well known which exist only in mediocre performances, or mediocre
recordings of performances. And when you ad in the interest in
_correct_ performance of early music, or indeed any music not
originally scored for bog-standard instrumentation...

I agree entirely. Awful recordings of classical music abound- there
is still some room to fill there.
I disagree with some others that "modern" classics are at fault. On
the contrary from my many years experience here on the Pacific
North-West it seems to me that local Symphony Orchestras are stuck in
the 19th. century. I do not know what anyone's definition of "atonal"
is but if it includes Bartok, Stravinski, Shostakovich, Webern, Berg
and Prokofiev than give me more of it, old as I am.

I admire your eclecticism, Ludovic, but you've made an odd list there.
Whatever the definition of atonal, Prokofiev and Shostakovitch
definitely don't fit it whereas Webern and Berg definitely do. I fear
your post clouds the issue somewhat.

"paul packer" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 08 Feb 2006 16:53:13 GMT, wrote:


Another factor is that with classical music you have a limited supply of
"product," whereas pop music has a new batch of people fresh out their
garage or prefab groups created by record companies to constantly put out
new product, that is trying to copy the older product, etc., etc.

Not true, Mike. There are vast amounts of neglected music from the
last 100 years or so waiting to be discovered

If they are undiscovered, how do you know there are vast amounts?
Perhaps they are undiscoverd because the composers or the audiences of the
time didn't care for them.

, plus plenty of young
composers ready to start composing tomorrow if there's a market and
money.

That's always going to be a problem, without a reasonable solution other
than renewed interest.
One can only hope, but I think that composers like John Williams might be
helpful insofar as their music tends to be easily encountered and more
exciting to the unitiated.

As someone said once about atonalism, "There's still much more
to be said in the key of C."

If it doesn't have something with a melody you can hum when you walk out,
it's probably doomed.

In article ,
(paul packer) wrote:

On Wed, 08 Feb 2006 16:53:13 GMT, wrote:


Another factor is that with classical music you have a limited supply of
"product," whereas pop music has a new batch of people fresh out their
garage or prefab groups created by record companies to constantly put out
new product, that is trying to copy the older product, etc., etc.

Not true, Mike. There are vast amounts of neglected music from the
last 100 years or so waiting to be discovered, plus plenty of young
composers ready to start composing tomorrow if there's a market and
money. As someone said once about atonalism, "There's still much more
to be said in the key of C."

Indeed. Hear, for example, Morton Lauridsen.

Clyde Slick wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

I do not know what anyone's definition of "atonal"
is but if it includes Bartok, Stravinski, Shostakovich, Webern, Berg
and Prokofiev than give me more of it, old as I am.

Berg is completely unlistenable. I prefer Yoko's screaching.

You can tell them apart?

On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 23:59:06 GMT, wrote:


"paul packer" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 08 Feb 2006 16:53:13 GMT, wrote:


Another factor is that with classical music you have a limited supply of
"product," whereas pop music has a new batch of people fresh out their
garage or prefab groups created by record companies to constantly put out
new product, that is trying to copy the older product, etc., etc.

Not true, Mike. There are vast amounts of neglected music from the
last 100 years or so waiting to be discovered

If they are undiscovered, how do you know there are vast amounts?
Perhaps they are undiscoverd because the composers or the audiences of the
time didn't care for them.

"Undiscovered" by the masses, but not unknown to the congniscenti.

, plus plenty of young
composers ready to start composing tomorrow if there's a market and
money.

That's always going to be a problem, without a reasonable solution other
than renewed interest.
One can only hope, but I think that composers like John Williams might be
helpful insofar as their music tends to be easily encountered and more
exciting to the unitiated.

Agreed. This relates to my remarks about the young looking to film
music for cultural sustenance. Had there been more artists like
Williams over the years perhaps classical music might not have
suffered such decline. The problem is that young people today will
never connect to Mozart operas and Haydn quartets; even I don't. They
might however be persuaded to listen to the likes of Shostakovich etc,
music that basically speaks the same language as film music. I've
always been astonished at the distain with which film music is treated
by concert hall snobs when it is in reality a "crossover" medium, a
way of involving the young in serious music. In recent years there
have even been film music concerts where the film in question is
projected behind the orchestra so that the audience can relate
directly to the music's subject. This was done with the sea battle in
Ben-Hur and I believe it was a huge hit. It might seem crass to the
elitists, but it might also be classical music's only hope.

As someone said once about atonalism, "There's still much more
to be said in the key of C."

If it doesn't have something with a melody you can hum when you walk out,
it's probably doomed.

Possibly true, but that in itself isn't so terrible. We start with
that and maybe move on later.

"Bret Ludwig" wrote in message
oups.com...

Clyde Slick wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

I do not know what anyone's definition of "atonal"
is but if it includes Bartok, Stravinski, Shostakovich, Webern, Berg
and Prokofiev than give me more of it, old as I am.

Berg is completely unlistenable. I prefer Yoko's screaching.

You can tell them apart?


pcabx reveals their subtle differences.



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Jenn wrote:
In article ,
(paul packer) wrote:

On Wed, 08 Feb 2006 16:53:13 GMT, wrote:


Another factor is that with classical music you have a limited supply of
"product," whereas pop music has a new batch of people fresh out their
garage or prefab groups created by record companies to constantly put out
new product, that is trying to copy the older product, etc., etc.

Not true, Mike. There are vast amounts of neglected music from the
last 100 years or so waiting to be discovered, plus plenty of young
composers ready to start composing tomorrow if there's a market and
money. As someone said once about atonalism, "There's still much more
to be said in the key of C."

Indeed. Hear, for example, Morton Lauridsen.

I am from New Zealand,and am clasically trained(piano).So I dont have
much to say,as regards the rest of the world.Never mind,have you heard
of Kiri Te Kanawa--apart from Renee Fleming,and Angela Georghui,she is
sublime..We have a world class pianist in Michael Houston,and the
virtuoso Barry Odonohue visits us regularlarly.
Not much more--just wanted to say "hello:--my favourites are
Shostakovitch,Sibelius,and,strangely enough,Manuel de Falla(and all the
Spanish composers--Granados,Ibeniz,etc--then again we have the Latin
composers such as Ponce and Ruvueltas.
Regards --Grattan.

"paul packer" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 23:59:06 GMT, wrote:


"paul packer" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 08 Feb 2006 16:53:13 GMT, wrote:


Another factor is that with classical music you have a limited supply of
"product," whereas pop music has a new batch of people fresh out their
garage or prefab groups created by record companies to constantly put
out
new product, that is trying to copy the older product, etc., etc.

Not true, Mike. There are vast amounts of neglected music from the
last 100 years or so waiting to be discovered

If they are undiscovered, how do you know there are vast amounts?
Perhaps they are undiscoverd because the composers or the audiences of the
time didn't care for them.

"Undiscovered" by the masses, but not unknown to the congniscenti.

That's pretty much all classical music for the masses. They have heard of a
few names like Bach, Beethoven, and Mozart, but that's about it. Both of
the claissical musci stations here, one run out of USC and the other a
(gasp) commercial station play much of the undiscovered composers.


, plus plenty of young
composers ready to start composing tomorrow if there's a market and
money.

That's always going to be a problem, without a reasonable solution other
than renewed interest.
One can only hope, but I think that composers like John Williams might be
helpful insofar as their music tends to be easily encountered and more
exciting to the unitiated.

Agreed. This relates to my remarks about the young looking to film
music for cultural sustenance. Had there been more artists like
Williams over the years perhaps classical music might not have
suffered such decline. The problem is that young people today will
never connect to Mozart operas and Haydn quartets; even I don't. They
might however be persuaded to listen to the likes of Shostakovich etc,
music that basically speaks the same language as film music.

My God man, COPLAND! Fanfare for the Common Man! Nobody wrote music that
screamed "make a movie around me," the way he did.

I've
always been astonished at the distain with which film music is treated
by concert hall snobs when it is in reality a "crossover" medium, a
way of involving the young in serious music.

Yet another reason that the unitiated would veer away from classical music,
snobbery.
I once met a woman who considered the music of Stravinsky to be "pop" music.

In recent years there
have even been film music concerts where the film in question is
projected behind the orchestra so that the audience can relate
directly to the music's subject. This was done with the sea battle in
Ben-Hur and I believe it was a huge hit. It might seem crass to the
elitists, but it might also be classical music's only hope.


They do similar things at the Hollywood Bowl.

As someone said once about atonalism, "There's still much more
to be said in the key of C."

If it doesn't have something with a melody you can hum when you walk out,
it's probably doomed.

Possibly true, but that in itself isn't so terrible. We start with
that and maybe move on later.

Maybe part of the problem is that in the days when I went to school there
was less concentration on things other than the 3 R's plus music and phys
ed. In middle school and High School we had the Seattle Symphony Orchestra
perform in our auditorium, I don't know if they do things like that anymore,
but it's certainly a valuable part of education. Things in the California
school system are so completely ****ed that music and art are not considered
essential, even though there is a connection between math and music. This
stems from so many years of concentrating on keeping the students stupid
that trying to catch up, (as if that were possible) has caused most parents
to want the focus placed on the 3 R's, since in very many cases here, Johnny
can't ****ing read. High School students are required to pass an exit exam
that is at an EIGHTH GRADE LEVEL and teachers are complaining and students
in most minority schools fail. Roughly 51% do not pass this test in those
areas. It's a goddamn crime and I blame much of it on the teachers unions
for not being proactive when the evidence was staring them in the face for
years. But that's another rant for another day.

On 10 Feb 2006 14:17:40 -0800, "grattanr"
wrote:

I am from New Zealand,and am clasically trained(piano).So I dont have
much to say,as regards the rest of the world.

No? The people in New Zealand don't take any notice of the rest of the
world?

Never mind,have you heard
of Kiri Te Kanawa--apart from Renee Fleming,and Angela Georghui,she is
sublime..We have a world class pianist in Michael Houston,and the
virtuoso Barry Odonohue visits us regularlarly.
Not much more--just wanted to say "hello:--my favourites are
Shostakovitch,Sibelius,and,strangely enough,Manuel de Falla(and all the
Spanish composers--Granados,Ibeniz,etc--then again we have the Latin
composers such as Ponce and Ruvueltas.

Nothing strange about liking Manuel de Falla or any of the others. I'm
just pleased to encounter anyone who isn't totally fixated on
Beethoven and Mozart.

paul packer wrote:
On 7 Feb 2006 23:53:01 -0800, wrote:


Accessory Section 8 wrote:
Clyde Slick wrote:
snip


How many different recordings of the same old stuff do we need?


I think that was his point. Except when you go back and ask how many
truly first class recordings there really are of any given symphonic or
chamber work...and how many genuinely valid interpretations, or
archetypes of interpretations there are, there some big ozone holes in
the musosphere. And there are many great works by composers who are not
as well known which exist only in mediocre performances, or mediocre
recordings of performances. And when you ad in the interest in
_correct_ performance of early music, or indeed any music not
originally scored for bog-standard instrumentation...

I agree entirely. Awful recordings of classical music abound- there
is still some room to fill there.
I disagree with some others that "modern" classics are at fault. On
the contrary from my many years experience here on the Pacific
North-West it seems to me that local Symphony Orchestras are stuck in
the 19th. century. I do not know what anyone's definition of "atonal"
is but if it includes Bartok, Stravinski, Shostakovich, Webern, Berg
and Prokofiev than give me more of it, old as I am.

I admire your eclecticism, Ludovic, but you've made an odd list there.
Whatever the definition of atonal, Prokofiev and Shostakovitch
definitely don't fit it whereas Webern and Berg definitely do. I fear
your post clouds the issue somewhat.

Of course you're right.
In self defence I said that I was very vague about what atonal means.
Sadly I don't play I just listen.
I should have included my ex-compatriot Penderecki . Not everything bur
St. Luke's Passion to me is great music.
And something else (I'm in my graphomaniac mood tonight). In most of
Europe "high culture": (please don't scour me- I don't have a good
definition) is or was considered a national resource deserving support
like the roads or railways. BBC TV in Britain is paid for by compulsory
TV licence. This enabled its first chairman Reith to say something like
this:" I don't care what THEY like. They'.d better get used to what WE
think is good for them". Compare with the niggardly charity dispensed
to thre American PBS. And compare the respective achievements.Another
example: in prewar Warsaw there was something like 12 or more repertory
theatres all supported by the City or the State( There was also high
illiteracy but that's another story). In America in accordance with the
entrepreneurial spirit culture is thought of as lame industry .that
deserves to die if it can not pay for itself.
And now disregard these typical musings of an old man.
Canada my country now falls half=way in between as usual
Ludovic Mirabel