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#1
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Firewire ports on DAW
I wanted to add a couple front panel Firewire ports to my DAW, so I
picked up a cheap, no-name ("Sabrent") card and panel on eBay*. The Firewire connections seem much slower than the built-in ones on my Asus motherboard (P4P800E Deluxe). Is this normal? Is it because it uses a PCI card? Will getting a better quality card improve the situation, or is that just the way it is with add-on Firewire ports? Thanks! * The specific item I bought, if it matters, is a PCI card with three USB2 ports, plus headers for lines that run to a connector panel that fits in a drive bay with three more USB2 and two Firewire connectors. This is it: http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...tem=6774708390 -- "It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!" - Lorin David Schultz in the control room making even bad news sound good (Remove spamblock to reply) |
#2
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On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:05:29 GMT, "Lorin David Schultz"
wrote: I wanted to add a couple front panel Firewire ports to my DAW, so I picked up a cheap, no-name ("Sabrent") card and panel on eBay*. The Firewire connections seem much slower than the built-in ones on my Asus motherboard (P4P800E Deluxe). Is this normal? Is it because it uses a PCI card? Will getting a better quality card improve the situation, or is that just the way it is with add-on Firewire ports? Thanks! * The specific item I bought, if it matters, is a PCI card with three USB2 ports, plus headers for lines that run to a connector panel that fits in a drive bay with three more USB2 and two Firewire connectors. This is it: http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...tem=6774708390 The bottleneck is the PCI bus, which is inherently far slower than Firewire. d Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
#3
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"Don Pearce" wrote in message ... On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:05:29 GMT, "Lorin David Schultz" wrote: I wanted to add a couple front panel Firewire ports to my DAW, so I picked up a cheap, no-name ("Sabrent") card and panel on eBay*. The Firewire connections seem much slower than the built-in ones on my Asus motherboard (P4P800E Deluxe). Is this normal? Is it because it uses a PCI card? Will getting a better quality card improve the situation, or is that just the way it is with add-on Firewire ports? Thanks! * The specific item I bought, if it matters, is a PCI card with three USB2 ports, plus headers for lines that run to a connector panel that fits in a drive bay with three more USB2 and two Firewire connectors. This is it: http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...tem=6774708390 The bottleneck is the PCI bus, which is inherently far slower than Firewire. You are incorrect Don. There is no bottleneck resulting from using a PCI card. The PCI bus has a bandwidth of 133 MB/s which is much faster than Firewire's 50MB/s or USB 2.0's 60MB/s. This is MegaBytes/second not MegaBits/second. As follows: PCI : four bytes of data with every tick of a 33 MHz clock or 133 megabytes/second USB 2.0 : top transfer of 480 megabits/second or 60 megabytes/second Firewi top transfer of 400 megabits/second or 50 megabytes/second Also, the "built in" Firewire interfaces on mobo's still run on top of the PCI bus anyway so there is no difference between a built in interface of one plugged into a pci slot. To the OP : If you feel that the PCI interface is slower than your built in, it is most likely due to the quality of the card you are using or the PCI slot you have chosen for the card. There can be big differences in performance between different USB/Firewire card manufacturers products. See he http://www.barefeats.com/fire5.html Although this is a comparison on a MAC, both platforms are still using the PCI bus. Try choosing another PCI slot first before checking out another card as there may be an IRQ sharing issue on the slot that you are using. HTH, J. .. |
#4
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#5
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ah, the windows platfrom.....
put a presonus firepod on my mac loaded no drivers and it worked like a charm. but we have danced this dance before and I sttill have no problems with firewire. nor the registry. or XP and protools! |
#6
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In article , Don Pearce
wrote: The Firewire connections seem much slower than the built-in ones on my Asus motherboard (P4P800E Deluxe). Is this normal? Is it because it uses a PCI card? Will getting a better quality card improve the situation, or is that just the way it is with add-on Firewire ports? Thanks! * The specific item I bought, if it matters, is a PCI card with three USB2 ports, plus headers for lines that run to a connector panel that fits in a drive bay with three more USB2 and two Firewire connectors. This is it: http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...tem=6774708390 The bottleneck is the PCI bus, which is inherently far slower than Firewire. d Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com We added Belkin FW PCI cards to a couple older Macs here, and they are pretty fast. Not as fast as the built in FW on our Powermacs, but still pretty quick. David Correia Celebration Sound Warren, Rhode Island www.CelebrationSound.com |
#7
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"Mike Rivers" wrote:
I went through three PCMCIA Firewire adapters before I found one that worked with the Mackie Onyx Firewire audio I/O (they all recognized the interface but not all of them passed audio satisfactorily), and I went through three Firewire external disk drive enclosures before I found one that worked with the Firewire card that worked with the Onyx. Curiously, my only other Firewire device, my Jukebox 3, worked with all of the PCMCIA adapters that I tried, but files transferred between the computer's internal hard drive and the Jukebox only about 2.5 times the speed of USB 1.1, so it sure wasn't working very well. There's a trend there... I gotta wonder if the problem in your case has less to do with the Firewire interface and more the Mackie. -- "It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!" - Lorin David Schultz in the control room making even bad news sound good (Remove spamblock to reply) |
#8
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"dale" wrote in message
ups.com... ah, the windows platfrom..... put a presonus firepod on my mac loaded no drivers and it worked like a charm. but we have danced this dance before and I sttill have no problems with firewire. nor the registry. or XP and protools! *sigh* Dale, this too worked first try, with no drivers. Plugged it in, turned it on, and it worked with no help from me at all. Pro Tools works fine. The built-in Firewire ports go full speed ahead. This isn't a "doesn't work" problem. It's a case of a cheap add-on that doesn't go as fast as I'd like. It's not a big deal though. It cost less than a good lunch. -- "It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!" - Lorin David Schultz in the control room making even bad news sound good (Remove spamblock to reply) |
#9
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mr schultz
was more of a comment aimed at mr rivers who has some very old windows product and keeps refusing to upgrade as he does not see the need.... but has a lot of problems with! ps. was not a firewire port that I plugged into my computer was an outboard audio device! though the iomega card port installed with the same ease. and if your pci firewire port cost less then a "lunch" but has all this hassle what did it really cost??? but we have danced this dance before! |
#11
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#12
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"Mike Rivers" wrote in message news:znr1120064915k@trad... Windows XP is a very old Windows product? I guess so since I don't have Service Pack 2. Mike, I had gotten the impression you were still running Win98. When did you finally move up in the world? :-) Hal Laurent Baltimore |
#13
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#14
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"dale" wrote:
and if your pci firewire port cost less then a "lunch" but has all this hassle what did it really cost??? All *what* hassle? It worked immediately with no effort whatsoever. My complaint is just that the firewire ports are slower than the ones integrated into the motherboard. Where did you get the idea there was some kind of "hassle" involved? What did it really cost? Very little money and very little of my time. For a few bucks it was worth trying. If it worked, great. If not, it cost me so little as to not really matter. My questions was (and is), is it slow because it's a no-name cheapie, or are ALL add-on PCI Firewire cards going to be slower simply because they use the PCI buss? You seem to be under the impression that there was an installation problem. That's not the case. -- "It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!" - Lorin David Schultz in the control room making even bad news sound good (Remove spamblock to reply) |
#15
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Thanks for the suggestions gentlemen. I'll try another slot to see if
that helps. If not, I have no idea how I'd choose an alternative card. I was willing to gamble $25 on seeing if a PCI Firewire card would transfer files as fast as the integrated ports, but I don't want to risk the price of a "real" card without knowing *for sure* that it will go like lightning. I'd hate to spend $100 only to find out that it's still slower than the built-in ports. -- "It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!" - Lorin David Schultz in the control room making even bad news sound good (Remove spamblock to reply) |
#16
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#17
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Lorin David Schultz wrote: My questions was (and is), is it slow because it's a no-name cheapie, or are ALL add-on PCI Firewire cards going to be slower simply because they use the PCI buss? You seem to be under the impression that there was an installation problem. That's not the case. I've heard that the slowdown is not due to burst data rate limits on PCI but rather that Firewire requires a lot of synchronous, interrupt driven hand shaking at which the PCI is less adept than the more integrated forms. Bob -- "Things should be described as simply as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein |
#18
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#19
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#20
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"Mike Rivers" wrote:
Who knows? And, more important, why would an audio engineer even be expected to know? For exactly the same reason that twenty years ago an audio engineer knew how much to overbias various tape formulations to get the cleanest track. It's part of the technical expertise required to do DAW-based work. The computer is the recorder, and sometimes the mixer. Firewire is the "mix buss" so the engineer needs to know where the overload point is. Fortunately for us, there are 1000 computer techs for every audio engineer (even in this brave new world of bedroom "engineers"), so it's easier to find information and support than it was for dedicated analog pro audio gear. -- "It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!" - Lorin David Schultz in the control room making even bad news sound good (Remove spamblock to reply) |
#21
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mr cain
the statement you made is true concerning usb not firewire. mr schultz most computer techs are lost when it comes to the requirements of daw. |
#22
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On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 20:00:46 GMT, "Lorin David Schultz"
wrote: Fortunately for us, there are 1000 computer techs for every audio engineer (even in this brave new world of bedroom "engineers"), so it's easier to find information and support than it was for dedicated analog pro audio gear. Few of them however seem capable of doing anything more than quoting the FireWire spec. and saying "..so you CAN'T be having a problem!" :-) C'mon MIke. Get up to speed on the current tools of your trade. We need your dual expertise, artistic AND technical. Help the youngsters to use TODAY's tools properly! It's all they've got. |
#23
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Because Firewire audio interfaces are among his tools?
Reminds me of some of the locksmiths grousing about the fact that electronic locks are coming in and forcing them to learn new skills. If you're happy to get by with the old stuff, go for it. If you want to leverage the new stuff, you've got to invest in learning how to use it effectively. Or be prepared to have someone on call who can advise you. |
#24
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#26
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"Laurence Payne" wrote in message ... On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 20:00:46 GMT, "Lorin David Schultz" wrote: Fortunately for us, there are 1000 computer techs for every audio engineer (even in this brave new world of bedroom "engineers"), so it's easier to find information and support than it was for dedicated analog pro audio gear. Few of them however seem capable of doing anything more than quoting the FireWire spec. and saying "..so you CAN'T be having a problem!" :-) snip........ Laurence, Although I do respect and appreciate your advice and opinions on most matters recording related, I do take offence to your last comment as it seems to be directed toward me. Although I did relay FW specs to refute Don Pearce's completely incorrect initial response to the OP's question that the problem was that FW resided on the PCI bus, I did not imply or tell the OP that he couldn't be having a problem with his firewire. I simply stated the facts (and specs) related to FW transfer and advised the OP to try another PCI slot for his FW interface before buying another FW card, which IMHO, is very good advice. If your comment wasn't aimed at my response............please accept my apologies. I guess I'm feeling a little thin skinned today and am tired of people denigrating or dismissing the help that others try to give with a short, blanket statement followed by a lame "smiley" emoticon attempting to make it seem like they are not attempting to feel or look superior and that there is something to laugh at in their statement. James |
#27
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All this kvetching about Firewire. You're supposed to plug the damn thing in and it mounts. If it doesn't, and you are really ****ed about it, well ... consider getting a Steven Jobs box. The only Mac problem I can think of is one rev of an OS X upgrade that conflicted with one of the Oxford chipsets, which was corrected in a week or two. It never affected me or 99% of the Mac world. That's the whole point of FW - ya plug it in and go. No scsi or ide ID conflicts. No termination issues. Plug it in and it mounts. I've been using FW for years, and we move data around with external FW drives between 6 Macs of various vintages. We even have an external FW Pioneer DVD burner that yes, works perfectly. In fact, *every* single work day I carry in an external FW drive with me from home. And at the end of the day, I copy any Protools songs I worked on that day onto the drive, and then bring it home. I have 4 external FW drives that I rotate daily and use just for this. I have zero problems with them. Or the DVD's burnt by the Pioneer FW box. I'd also add that both my kids still have their first generation ipods and the damn things have never not mounted and worked. One of them even has the original battery, and that ipod gets used every single day. I wish I had some of that battery in me ; My point really isn't 'buy a Mac.' I wouldn't point the finger at FW. I'd blame someone's crappy or cheap implementation of it. David Correia Celebration Sound Warren, Rhode Island www.CelebrationSound.com |
#29
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dale wrote: mr cain the statement you made is true concerning usb not firewire. Thanks, Dale. I was reporting an answer that I had read elsewere, elsewhen. Why, then, is PCI Firewire slower than more tightly integrated solutions? Isn't PCI bus burst rate greater than Firewire? Bob -- "Things should be described as simply as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein |
#30
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"david" wrote in message
... All this kvetching about Firewire. You're supposed to plug the damn thing in and it mounts. If it doesn't, and you are really ****ed [...] I wouldn't point the finger at FW. I'd blame someone's crappy or cheap implementation of it. What on Earth are you ranting about David? No one has suggested in this thread that there's any kind of problem with Firewire at all, nor has anyone made any reference to a device not working. All I said was that the add-on ports supplied by my 1394 PCI card are slower than the ones integrated into the motherboard. I asked if that was a limitation of the device or the bus, that's all. -- "It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!" - Lorin David Schultz in the control room making even bad news sound good (Remove spamblock to reply) |
#31
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On Sun, 3 Jul 2005 20:44:48 -0500, "James Buhler"
wrote: "Laurence Payne" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 20:00:46 GMT, "Lorin David Schultz" wrote: Fortunately for us, there are 1000 computer techs for every audio engineer (even in this brave new world of bedroom "engineers"), so it's easier to find information and support than it was for dedicated analog pro audio gear. Few of them however seem capable of doing anything more than quoting the FireWire spec. and saying "..so you CAN'T be having a problem!" :-) snip........ Laurence, Although I do respect and appreciate your advice and opinions on most matters recording related, I do take offence to your last comment as it seems to be directed toward me. Although I did relay FW specs to refute Don Pearce's completely incorrect initial response to the OP's question that the problem was that FW resided on the PCI bus, I did not imply or tell the OP that he couldn't be having a problem with his firewire. I simply stated the facts (and specs) related to FW transfer and advised the OP to try another PCI slot for his FW interface before buying another FW card, which IMHO, is very good advice. If your comment wasn't aimed at my response............please accept my apologies. I guess I'm feeling a little thin skinned today and am tired of people denigrating or dismissing the help that others try to give with a short, blanket statement followed by a lame "smiley" emoticon attempting to make it seem like they are not attempting to feel or look superior and that there is something to laugh at in their statement. Yes, you are being a little thin skinned. If you feel the cap fits you, even slightly, then it's been a useful leaning experience. No charge :-) |
#32
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#33
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"Why, then, is PCI Firewire slower than more tightly
integrated solutions? Isn't PCI bus burst rate greater than Firewire? " one way to answer would be it depends on your buss speed. my research prior to committing to this technology a few years ago says no TC Electronics has moved their pci powercore to powercore firewire... mr rivers wrote here about doing research on firewire for an article and I posted a few links to the Electronic Musician website. that is a good place to start. http://emusician.com/searchresults/?terms=firewire digidesign and glyph technology would also be a good place to look for this answer. |
#34
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#36
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In article znr1120474260k@trad, Mike Rivers wrote:
Knowledge about computers tends not to be generalized because there are so many individual differences. Also, what you learn about a piece of the technology at one time may become completely useless (unless your business is restoring old computers) in a very short period. Much computer diagnosis is based on replace-and-try or wait until something else comes along. For the most part, this is only true in the Windows world. And it's because Windows for the most part consists of black boxes that you can't look inside, and therefore cannot do any real troubleshooting in. This means that a good tech's troubleshooting method becomes having a problem/solution matrix in your head and little more. Outside of the Windows world, this is not the case. You can look inside applications with "test equipment" like debuggers and see what is going on, and fix it. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#37
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In article jI5ye.90914$HI.33319@edtnps84, Lorin David Schultz
wrote: All this kvetching about Firewire. You're supposed to plug the damn thing in and it mounts. If it doesn't, and you are really ****ed [...] I wouldn't point the finger at FW. I'd blame someone's crappy or cheap implementation of it. What on Earth are you ranting about David? No one has suggested in this thread that there's any kind of problem with Firewire at all, nor has anyone made any reference to a device not working. All I said was that the add-on ports supplied by my 1394 PCI card are slower than the ones integrated into the motherboard. I asked if that was a limitation of the device or the bus, that's all. Gee, I thought I read a discussion that expanded to comparing biasing a tape machines to using FW, problems with a Mackie FW device, $25 FW cards not working, and "fixing FW". My bad. David Correia Celebration Sound Warren, Rhode Island www.CelebrationSound.com |
#38
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"david" wrote:
Gee, I thought I read a discussion that expanded to comparing biasing a tape machines to using FW, problems with a Mackie FW device, $25 FW cards not working, and "fixing FW". Whoops, you're right -- Mike did mention non-working Firewire PCMCIA devices. ****. I hate it when I'm loudly and stupidly wrong. You misunderstood the part about the cheap PCI card though. It works fine and did so immediately with no problems at all. It just passes files more slowly than the ports integrated into the motherboard. All I was asking was if that would likely be attributable to it being a cheap card, or if it had something to do with being on the PCI bus, that's all. -- "It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!" - Lorin David Schultz in the control room making even bad news sound good (Remove spamblock to reply) |
#39
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#40
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In article znr1120495355k@trad, Mike Rivers wrote:
Outside of the Windows world, this is not the case. You can look inside applications with "test equipment" like debuggers and see what is going on, and fix it. Like maybe ProTools for the Mac? With OSX, it's _amazing_ what you can see ProTools doing just with simple tools like ktrace, which traces all kernal calls. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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