What hardware was used?

Your comparing the bottom of the barrel to Radar and ignoring a wealth of
other options- for instance- I use RME Multiface with GenX6 word clock as
master- record 24/96 and I can't imagine you would hear the same drastic
differences- or there is the simple Rosetta from Apogee- stereo a/d
conversion- I'm sure these won't be much more than the cost of the hours of
tracking-
I also hear Aardvark is good too- but I'm terribly happy with RME- I'll
never go MOTU again unless maybe when the day came I switched to a Mac-
which is not going to happen in the foreseeable future!

C
"Mondoslug1" wrote in message
...
So I got this no name piece of gear soundcard & breakout box thing here to
attempt do acoustic overdubs in Nuendo. The original acoustic tracks were
done
on Radar, not sure which converters. I was told Nyquist but not sure about
that. An Amek 9098 Pre/Eq(EQ out) was used. I'm just monitoring for now
through
phones comparing my overdubbed tone against what what was recorded and the
tone
sucks...thin, bright, gnarly. Same mic, same guitar, diffenet pre(for
now)the
room wasn't stellar that it was recorded in & isn't now(although it was
quieter), good engineer vs. me but basically I don't think those things
are
mattering here.............the tone I'm getting just sucks & I don't think
a
mic pre would make the difference.............it's just about tone, stick
a mic
up & go & it sounds thin, brittle, noisy(beyond the room I think) which
leads
me to believe this soundcard is a POS and the converters, and some other
isssues. The wildcard is me engineering but still, there's something else
going
on here. So far gonna save my cash & go back and record on Radar. Bummed
in
Nville.



My tunes at:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/5/andymostmusic.htm

So? Are you complaining about the fact that the Nyquist converters are too
good, or that you simply, as an engineer, haven't figured out what you're
supposed to do yet?

If you feel you can't accomplish the job, then either you shouldn't have
taken it, or you should have made certain that you could accompish it. That
could/would mean perhaps renting in equipment you needed, or, knowing that
you're environment isn't quiet enough, renting out some studio time. This
whole gig is about knowing beforehand what you need, and if someone isn't
capable of telling you what you need to know, being quick on your feet to
product the needed results in the absolute shortest period of time.

Since you've got a description of the sound "thin, bright, gnarly", then
you've got a starting point. Actually you always have a starting point, and
that's "what did it sound like when I was playing it?". An engineer either
gets the sound the way it is, or the way somebody else wants it. You kinda
sound like you don't know how to get the sound the way it is. Why even care
about the sound their tracks are putting out? If you A) play your ass off,
it will work, and B) if you play your ass off, it will work even better if
you record it right.

And don't negate "thin, bright, gnarly" when that might actually be the
thing you're looking for.

The space is your's man, make the best of it. We have confidence in you!
g

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net. See
how far $20 really goes.




"Mondoslug1" wrote in message
...
So I got this no name piece of gear soundcard & breakout box thing here to
attempt do acoustic overdubs in Nuendo. The original acoustic tracks were
done
on Radar, not sure which converters. I was told Nyquist but not sure about
that. An Amek 9098 Pre/Eq(EQ out) was used. I'm just monitoring for now
through
phones comparing my overdubbed tone against what what was recorded and the
tone
sucks...thin, bright, gnarly. Same mic, same guitar, diffenet pre(for
now)the
room wasn't stellar that it was recorded in & isn't now(although it was
quieter), good engineer vs. me but basically I don't think those things
are
mattering here.............the tone I'm getting just sucks & I don't think
a
mic pre would make the difference.............it's just about tone, stick
a mic
up & go & it sounds thin, brittle, noisy(beyond the room I think) which
leads
me to believe this soundcard is a POS and the converters, and some other
isssues. The wildcard is me engineering but still, there's something else
going
on here. So far gonna save my cash & go back and record on Radar. Bummed
in
Nville.



My tunes at:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/5/andymostmusic.htm

Roger wrote:

So? Are you complaining about the fact that the Nyquist converters are too
good, or that you simply, as an engineer, haven't figured out what you're
supposed to do yet?

Just whining out loud. Radar rawks though.

If you feel you can't accomplish the job, then either you shouldn't have
taken it, or you should have made certain that you could accompish it. That
could/would mean perhaps renting in equipment you needed, or, knowing that
you're environment isn't quiet enough, renting out some studio time. This
whole gig is about knowing beforehand what you need, and if someone isn't
capable of telling you what you need to know, being quick on your feet to
product the needed results in the absolute shortest period of time.

I have thought most of it out, the failsafe has always been the studio. From
the beginning I told myself if I don't feel that I can pull it off at the house
I'll just buck up & finish it at the studio(the sound of engineers & studio
owners clapping ) I just would love to be able to do it here.................at
any hour I choose as many times as I want.

Since you've got a description of the sound "thin, bright, gnarly", then
you've got a starting point. Actually you always have a starting point, and
that's "what did it sound like when I was playing it?".

Not like that

An engineer either
gets the sound the way it is, or the way somebody else wants it.

Well there wasn't anything done to my sound first time, guitar, mic, pre,
radar. No Eq no nothing. I'm using a different pre but I just have a feeling
that although the right pre will make a difference, there's another element
escaping me(besides engineer) The freaking soundcard!

You kinda sound like you don't know how to get the sound the way it is.

I think I do know how to get it..........I've gotten it before, it's just not
happening on my rig at present.

Why even care
about the sound their tracks are putting out? If you A) play your ass off,
it will work, and B) if you play your ass off, it will work even better if
you record it right.

trying for letter B.

And don't negate "thin, bright, gnarly" when that might actually be the
thing you're looking for.

Yeah I've learned all things can't be big & fat & warm in a mix but I got
instruments covering that sonic territory..............I'm not looking for
"thin, bright, gnarly" from my acoustic guitar on these particular tunes. heh

The space is your's man, make the best of it. We have confidence in you!
g

Hey thanks! Stuart Smalley moment, I know I can do this. Doing it's another
thing though.
--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net. See
how far $20 really goes.




"Mondoslug1" wrote in message
...
So I got this no name piece of gear soundcard & breakout box thing here to
attempt do acoustic overdubs in Nuendo. The original acoustic tracks were
done
on Radar, not sure which converters. I was told Nyquist but not sure about
that. An Amek 9098 Pre/Eq(EQ out) was used. I'm just monitoring for now
through
phones comparing my overdubbed tone against what what was recorded and the
tone
sucks...thin, bright, gnarly. Same mic, same guitar, diffenet pre(for
now)the
room wasn't stellar that it was recorded in & isn't now(although it was
quieter), good engineer vs. me but basically I don't think those things
are
mattering here.............the tone I'm getting just sucks & I don't think
a
mic pre would make the difference.............it's just about tone, stick
a mic
up & go & it sounds thin, brittle, noisy(beyond the room I think) which
leads
me to believe this soundcard is a POS and the converters, and some other
isssues. The wildcard is me engineering but still, there's something else
going
on here. So far gonna save my cash & go back and record on Radar. Bummed
in
Nville.



My tunes at:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/5/andymostmusic.htm














My tunes at:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/5/andymostmusic.htm

Mike Rivers wrote:

That's the principle behind personal studios. It's possible, but when
it comes to recording acoustic instruments and vocals, you need to put
more into it than just equipment. I suspect that whatever A/D
converters or mic preamp that you have aren't your major problem, but
once you get your major problem (most likely an architectural one) is
fixed,

I dunno with my limited experience with different soundcards I'm going out on
the limb and saying this soundcard is a "major" problem for me in achieving the
sound I want. The architecture is for sure, perhaps more so. I am soloing just
the mic in the room with nothing & it's too damn noisy for sure, for me. I
could get away with it I think but not in good conscience.


The architecture
you might be able to hear what better converters sound like.

I can hear it, I don't care if I'm not an engineer. I can hear the
differences.......I couldn't tell you what's what but I can tell you there's no
depth, it's noisy beyond the room. I couldn't hear much difference between
Sound Manager & an AM 2 or 3 card but I can here the difference between this
POS C Port into Nuendo and tracking in Radar

That being said, I can hear a significant difference between the
fifteen cent audio hardware built into my laptop computer and the
Digigram VX Pocket card, even when listening to low rate streaming
audio (radio broadcast, dialup) over the Internet on my Radio Shack
Minimus 7 speakers.

If you're just playing with loops, writing songs, rehearsing, or
arranging, a simple home studio in a corner of a room is fine. But
when you want things to sound like they do in a real studio, you need
to at least come close to that real studio environment.


You speak the truth, luckily the basic tracks were done there. this is just
icinng but still.....................






My tunes at:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/5/andymostmusic.htm

So I got this no name piece of gear soundcard & breakout box thing here to
attempt do acoustic overdubs in Nuendo. The original acoustic tracks were
done
on Radar, not sure which converters. I was told Nyquist but not sure about
that. An Amek 9098 Pre/Eq(EQ out) was used. I'm just monitoring for now
through
phones comparing my overdubbed tone against what what was recorded and the
tone
sucks...thin, bright, gnarly. Same mic, same guitar, diffenet pre(for now)the
room wasn't stellar that it was recorded in & isn't now(although it was
quieter), good engineer vs. me but basically I don't think those things are
mattering here.............the tone I'm getting just sucks & I don't think a
mic pre would make the difference.............it's just about tone, stick a
mic up & go & it sounds thin, brittle, noisy

Just for ****s & giggles, what preamp was used on the orginal tracks and with
what mic? Converters matter but not as much as mics, placement and preamps
IMHO. I'm not a big fan of the pre on the 9098pre/EQ. While it doesn't suck it
isn't far from it, I've heard run of the mill Amek console pres sound much
better in A/B comparions when I was in the hot seat.

---
-Jay Kahrs
Owner - Chief Engineer
Mad Moose Recording Inc.
Morris Plains, NJ
http://www.madmooserecording.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Come visit me here -- http://www.gearslutz.com

In Article ,
(Jay Kahrs) wrote:
So I got this no name piece of gear soundcard & breakout box thing here to
attempt do acoustic overdubs in Nuendo. The original acoustic tracks were
done
on Radar, not sure which converters. I was told Nyquist but not sure about
that. An Amek 9098 Pre/Eq(EQ out) was used. I'm just monitoring for now
through
phones comparing my overdubbed tone against what what was recorded and the
tone
sucks...thin, bright, gnarly. Same mic, same guitar, diffenet pre(for now)the
room wasn't stellar that it was recorded in & isn't now(although it was
quieter), good engineer vs. me but basically I don't think those things are
mattering here.............the tone I'm getting just sucks & I don't think a
mic pre would make the difference.............it's just about tone, stick a
mic up & go & it sounds thin, brittle, noisy

Just for ****s & giggles, what preamp was used on the orginal tracks and with
what mic? Converters matter but not as much as mics, placement and preamps
IMHO. I'm not a big fan of the pre on the 9098pre/EQ. While it doesn't suck it
isn't far from it, I've heard run of the mill Amek console pres sound much
better in A/B comparions when I was in the hot seat.

Conversely, I really like the 9098 pre/EQ. It does some really nice things.
The EQ is a bit different and takes some getting used to.

Regards,

Ty Ford

For Ty Ford V/O demos, audio services and equipment reviews,
click on http://www.jagunet.com/~tford

Jay wrote:

Just for ****s & giggles, what preamp was used on the orginal tracks and with
what mic? Converters matter but not as much as mics, placement and preamps
IMHO. I'm not a big fan of the pre on the 9098pre/EQ. While it doesn't suck
it
isn't far from it, I've heard run of the mill Amek console pres sound much
better in A/B comparions when I was in the hot seat.


Hey Jay, on the tracking session the mic was a 4033 & the pre an Amek 9098. I'm
resigned to the fact that there are a lot of other issues involved here other
than the converters but that Soundcard Interface is still a POS I think - for
what I'm trying to achieve.
---
-Jay Kahrs
Owner - Chief Engineer
Mad Moose Recording Inc.
Morris Plains, NJ
http://www.madmooserecording.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Come visit me here -- http://www.gearslutz.com











My tunes at:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/5/andymostmusic.htm

Ty Ford wrote:

Just for ****s & giggles, what preamp was used on the orginal tracks and with
what mic? Converters matter but not as much as mics, placement and preamps
IMHO. I'm not a big fan of the pre on the 9098pre/EQ. While it doesn't suck it
isn't far from it, I've heard run of the mill Amek console pres sound much
better in A/B comparions when I was in the hot seat.


Conversely, I really like the 9098 pre/EQ. It does some really nice things.
The EQ is a bit different and takes some getting used to.


For lack of a better word, I found a little sponginess to it. Very cool
for some things, not so good on others.
-Rob

(Jay Kahrs) wrote in message ...
So I got this no name piece of gear soundcard & breakout box thing here to
attempt do acoustic overdubs in Nuendo. The original acoustic tracks were
done
on Radar, not sure which converters. I was told Nyquist but not sure about
that. An Amek 9098 Pre/Eq(EQ out) was used. I'm just monitoring for now
through
phones comparing my overdubbed tone against what what was recorded and the
tone
sucks...thin, bright, gnarly. Same mic, same guitar, diffenet pre(for now)the
room wasn't stellar that it was recorded in & isn't now(although it was
quieter), good engineer vs. me but basically I don't think those things are
mattering here.............the tone I'm getting just sucks & I don't think a
mic pre would make the difference.............it's just about tone, stick a
mic up & go & it sounds thin, brittle, noisy

Just for ****s & giggles, what preamp was used on the orginal tracks and with
what mic? Converters matter but not as much as mics, placement and preamps
IMHO. I'm not a big fan of the pre on the 9098pre/EQ. While it doesn't suck it
isn't far from it, I've heard run of the mill Amek console pres sound much
better in A/B comparions when I was in the hot seat.

So have you guys actually played around much with the soundcards that
come with computers? The original poster's problem sounds a lot like
a cheap soundcard. My personal experience with consumer grade
converters is that they can range from halfway decent to completely
unusable. If you want to do some overdubbing at home getting two
decent nothing fancy channels of A/D would be a minimum I'd think.

rossi

Conversely, I really like the 9098 pre/EQ. It does some really nice things.
The EQ is a bit different and takes some getting used to.

Go figure. I like the EQ a lot but the preamps almost always leave me wanting
more. I remember one session where I ha the bass DI'd from a Demeter box and
into a 9098pre/EQ with the EQ out. The bass player wanted to know why it
sounded weird. I agreed that it did and ran it into one of the console (Amek
Mozart, transformerless) pres and we agreed that it sounded much better. I had
the same thing repeat it's self many many times. I don't know why, it should be
nice but it just sits there in a boring and uninteresting way. It's bland. But,
I don't think this is the posters problem if he used it on the basic tracks and
he's still using it. So, I digress...

---
-Jay Kahrs
Owner - Chief Engineer
Mad Moose Recording Inc.
Morris Plains, NJ
http://www.madmooserecording.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Come visit me here -- http://www.gearslutz.com

Go figure. I like the EQ a lot but the preamps almost always leave me wanting
more. I remember one session where I ha the bass DI'd from a Demeter box and
into a 9098pre/EQ with the EQ out. The bass player wanted to know why it
sounded weird. I agreed that it did and ran it into one of the console (Amek
Mozart, transformerless) pres and we agreed that it sounded much better. I
had
the same thing repeat it's self many many times. I don't know why, it should
be
nice but it just sits there in a boring and uninteresting way. It's bland.
But,
I don't think this is the posters problem if he used it on the basic tracks
and
he's still using it.

Well I'm not still using it but I don't have a problem with the sound I got
tracking with it & Radar.....at all but when I go back I'll be able to choose
and try different pres(Great River & Vintech 1272s) since they won't be wasted
on freakin drums this time! Just kiddin....sorta.

So, I digress...

---
-Jay Kahrs
Owner - Chief Engineer
Mad Moose Recording Inc.
Morris Plains, NJ
http://www.madmooserecording.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Come visit me here -- http://www.gearslutz.com











My tunes at:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/5/andymostmusic.htm

Mondoslug1 wrote:

Well I'm not still using it but I don't have a problem with the sound I got
tracking with it & Radar...

If you're happy with what you got using a Radar 24, and you are now
unhappy with what you're getting using your soundcard, then, yeah,
convertors might well make the difference.

But understand that if the problems are upstream from conversion, better
convertors will not help, except to allow better interpretation of the
problems. That can be good in the long run. But if one thinks a certain
tool is going to fix a problem, and the tool just makes the problem more
obivous, one's first reaction is often disapointment.

--
hank alrich * secret mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"

Hank wrote:

Mondoslug1 wrote:

Well I'm not still using it but I don't have a problem with the sound I got
tracking with it & Radar...

If you're happy with what you got using a Radar 24, and you are now
unhappy with what you're getting using your soundcard, then, yeah,
convertors might well make the difference.

But understand that if the problems are upstream from conversion, better
convertors will not help, except to allow better interpretation of the
problems. That can be good in the long run. But if one thinks a certain
tool is going to fix a problem, and the tool just makes the problem more
obivous, one's first reaction is often disapointment.


Yeah that's where I'm afraid this would eventually head
with the current rig. I'm repeating myself but I do think this tool(POS
Soundcard) is a big part of the problem and a better hardware interface would
no doubt be an improvement. This projec - biased as I am - deserves much
better.


--
hank alrich * secret mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"











My tunes at:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/5/andymostmusic.htm

Mondoslug1 wrote:

I do think this tool(POS
Soundcard) is a big part of the problem and a better hardware interface would
no doubt be an improvement. This projec - biased as I am - deserves much
better.

I don't know anything about computer sound cards, but aren't there some
pretty good ones around for not all that much money?

Arny, what's nice and not too costly?

--
hank alrich * secret mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"

Arny K wrote:

"LeBaron & Alrich" wrote in message
t
Mondoslug1 wrote:

I do think this tool(POS
Soundcard) is a big part of the problem and a better hardware
interface would no doubt be an improvement. This projec - biased as
I am - deserves much better.

I don't know anything about computer sound cards, but aren't there
some pretty good ones around for not all that much money?

Arny, what's nice and not too costly?

Please check out http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/compare/index.htm .


Wow.....thanks for the link.

Depends on what you want...

I think the lowest cost record/play consumer cards that are good enough to
recommend would be the Turtle Beach Santa Cruz or a CL Audigy OEM. The
lowest cost production-style card is probably the Echo Mia. The M-Audio
Delta 1010 is probably the lowest cost multichannel (8 or more)
production-style audio interface I can recommend.

I need something like the Lynx 22 or RME Multiface although I've never
personally heard either one. I only need like 2 analog in and 4 out so I can
monitor a stereo mix & 2 mics through an external mixer. You ever run across an
ST C Port DAC 2000? I thought I read that it had the same converters as the
Delta stuff...........I hope not for Delta's sake.


Although I play a bjorkin' beginner on usenet....................



My tunes at:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/5/andymostmusic.htm

Just for ****s & giggles, what preamp was used on the orginal tracks and with
what mic? Converters matter but not as much as mics, placement and preamps
IMHO. I'm not a big fan of the pre on the 9098pre/EQ. While it doesn't suck
it
isn't far from it, I've heard run of the mill Amek console pres sound much
better in A/B comparions when I was in the hot seat.



Hey Jay, on the tracking session the mic was a 4033 & the pre an Amek 9098. I'm
resigned to the fact that there are a lot of other issues involved here other
than the converters but that Soundcard Interface is still a POS I think - for
what I'm trying to achieve.

And what mic and pre are you using with your POS soundcard???

Jeff Chestek

jeffrey Chestek wrote:

Just for ****s & giggles, what preamp was used on the orginal tracks and
with
what mic? Converters matter but not as much as mics, placement and preamps
IMHO. I'm not a big fan of the pre on the 9098pre/EQ. While it doesn't suck
it
isn't far from it, I've heard run of the mill Amek console pres sound much
better in A/B comparions when I was in the hot seat.



Hey Jay, on the tracking session the mic was a 4033 & the pre an Amek 9098.
I'm
resigned to the fact that there are a lot of other issues involved here
other
than the converters but that Soundcard Interface is still a POS I think -
for
what I'm trying to achieve.

And what mic and pre are you using with your POS soundcard???

Jeff Chestek



A 4033 and a DBX 586 here on loan to try which I know is not thought of fondly
around these parts & I might tend to agree but that's where this started.
Changing the pre would make a difference no doubt but I thiik there is another
issue or two beyond the pre.





My tunes at:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/5/andymostmusic.htm