[Andrew Barss]

I have a pair of B&W DM602 S3 speakers, and just got an Onkyo
TX-SR706 receiver. Thr msnual for the latter suggests bi-wiring
(specifically, connecting the front L/R terminals to one set of
terminals on the speakers, and connecting the rear L/R receiver
terminals to the other set of speaker terminals). So does the B&W website
(in general, not specifically for these speakers).

Is there any real advantage to doing this?

-- Andy Barss

[Kalman Rubinson[_3_]]

On 3 Mar 2009 22:02:28 GMT, Andrew Barss
wrote:

I have a pair of B&W DM602 S3 speakers, and just got an Onkyo
TX-SR706 receiver. Thr msnual for the latter suggests bi-wiring
(specifically, connecting the front L/R terminals to one set of
terminals on the speakers, and connecting the rear L/R receiver
terminals to the other set of speaker terminals). So does the B&W website
(in general, not specifically for these speakers).

Is there any real advantage to doing this?

-- Andy Barss

What you are describing is a form of bi-amping, not just bi-wiring.
However, the answer is the same in both cases: No real advantage.

Kal

[Sonnova]

On Tue, 3 Mar 2009 15:57:43 -0800, Kalman Rubinson wrote
(in article ):

On 3 Mar 2009 22:02:28 GMT, Andrew Barss
wrote:

I have a pair of B&W DM602 S3 speakers, and just got an Onkyo
TX-SR706 receiver. Thr msnual for the latter suggests bi-wiring
(specifically, connecting the front L/R terminals to one set of
terminals on the speakers, and connecting the rear L/R receiver
terminals to the other set of speaker terminals). So does the B&W website
(in general, not specifically for these speakers).

Is there any real advantage to doing this?

-- Andy Barss

What you are describing is a form of bi-amping, not just bi-wiring.
However, the answer is the same in both cases: No real advantage.

Kal



Under certain circumstances, bi-amping can be beneficial; like for servo'd
subwoofers, etc., but there is no technological advantage to bi-wiring. None
at all. Speaker wires not big enough for you? Use bigger cables, it's just as
good as doubling-up on the smaller cables - cheaper too.

[Arny Krueger]

"Andrew Barss" wrote in message
...
I have a pair of B&W DM602 S3 speakers, and just got an Onkyo
TX-SR706 receiver. Thr msnual for the latter suggests bi-wiring
(specifically, connecting the front L/R terminals to one set of
terminals on the speakers, and connecting the rear L/R receiver
terminals to the other set of speaker terminals). So does the B&W website
(in general, not specifically for these speakers).

Is there any real advantage to doing this?

No.

Most speaker manufacturers who provide bi-wiring terminals do so as to not
alienate the reviewers and audionuts who think that Bi-wiring actually makes
a difference.

[Greg Wormald]

In article ,
Andrew Barss wrote:

I have a pair of B&W DM602 S3 speakers, and just got an Onkyo
TX-SR706 receiver. Thr msnual for the latter suggests bi-wiring
(specifically, connecting the front L/R terminals to one set of
terminals on the speakers, and connecting the rear L/R receiver
terminals to the other set of speaker terminals). So does the B&W website
(in general, not specifically for these speakers).

Is there any real advantage to doing this?

-- Andy Barss

Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each
pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs.
Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair.
Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole
thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change
whatsoever.
I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive
change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check.
All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker
cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do.

Greg

[[email protected]]

Please note the interpolations.

Please forgive the top-posting.

On Mar 4, 10:16*am, Greg Wormald wrote:

Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each
pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs.
Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair.
Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole
thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change
whatsoever.

Assuming that the connection(s) at the speaker are sufficiently rugged
and the speaker cables are sufficiently thick relative to their length
and the cable connectors are properly installed the result should be
"no change whatsoever".

I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive
change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check.
All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker
cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do.

I had the same phenomenon with a pair of AR3a speakers. Until I
fabricated two drilled jumpers from soft copper sheeting to replace
the little bits of OEM wire on the terminal - and - went up two
standard gauges on the speaker cables from 16ga. stranded to 12ga.
stranded. Soldered lugs that were clamped vs. banana-plugs, clamps
snugged a bit beyond hand-tight and so forth and there was no
discernable difference.

Unless the laws of physics have been repealed recently, bi-wiring and
mono-wiring should make no discernable difference assuming proper
gauge wire and truly secure connections in the very first place.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[[email protected]]

On 4 Mar, 09:16, " wrote:
Please note the interpolations.

Please forgive the top-posting.

On Mar 4, 10:16*am, Greg Wormald wrote:

Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each
pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs.
Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair.
Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole
thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change
whatsoever.

Assuming that the connection(s) at the speaker are sufficiently rugged
and the speaker cables are sufficiently thick relative to their length
and the cable connectors are properly installed the result should be
"no change whatsoever".

I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive
change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check.
All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker
cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do.

I had the same phenomenon with a pair of AR3a speakers. Until I
fabricated two drilled jumpers from soft copper sheeting to replace
the little bits of OEM wire on the terminal - and - went up two
standard gauges on the speaker cables from 16ga. stranded to 12ga.
stranded. Soldered lugs that were clamped vs. banana-plugs, clamps
snugged a bit beyond hand-tight and so forth and there was no
discernable difference.

Unless the laws of physics have been repealed recently, bi-wiring and
mono-wiring should make no discernable difference assuming proper
gauge wire and truly secure connections in the very first place.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

For real? Based on the laws of physics there should be no measurable
differences? The output of both will be identical in every measurable
parameter? That surprises me. Which specific laws of physics are you
thinking of and how do they apply here?

[Serge Auckland[_2_]]

wrote in message ...
On 4 Mar, 09:16, " wrote:
Please note the interpolations.

Please forgive the top-posting.

On Mar 4, 10:16 am, Greg Wormald wrote:

Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving
each
pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs.
Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair.
Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the
whole
thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change
whatsoever.

Assuming that the connection(s) at the speaker are sufficiently rugged
and the speaker cables are sufficiently thick relative to their length
and the cable connectors are properly installed the result should be
"no change whatsoever".

I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive
change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check.
All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker
cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do.

I had the same phenomenon with a pair of AR3a speakers. Until I
fabricated two drilled jumpers from soft copper sheeting to replace
the little bits of OEM wire on the terminal - and - went up two
standard gauges on the speaker cables from 16ga. stranded to 12ga.
stranded. Soldered lugs that were clamped vs. banana-plugs, clamps
snugged a bit beyond hand-tight and so forth and there was no
discernable difference.

Unless the laws of physics have been repealed recently, bi-wiring and
mono-wiring should make no discernable difference assuming proper
gauge wire and truly secure connections in the very first place.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

For real? Based on the laws of physics there should be no measurable
differences? The output of both will be identical in every measurable
parameter? That surprises me. Which specific laws of physics are you
thinking of and how do they apply here?

Superposition.
S.

--
http://audiopages.googlepages.com

[Sonnova]

On Wed, 4 Mar 2009 14:05:17 -0800, wrote
(in article ):

On 4 Mar, 09:16, " wrote:
Please note the interpolations.

Please forgive the top-posting.

On Mar 4, 10:16*am, Greg Wormald wrote:

Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each
pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs.
Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair.
Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole
thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change
whatsoever.

Assuming that the connection(s) at the speaker are sufficiently rugged
and the speaker cables are sufficiently thick relative to their length
and the cable connectors are properly installed the result should be
"no change whatsoever".

I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive
change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check.
All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker
cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do.

I had the same phenomenon with a pair of AR3a speakers. Until I
fabricated two drilled jumpers from soft copper sheeting to replace
the little bits of OEM wire on the terminal - and - went up two
standard gauges on the speaker cables from 16ga. stranded to 12ga.
stranded. Soldered lugs that were clamped vs. banana-plugs, clamps
snugged a bit beyond hand-tight and so forth and there was no
discernable difference.

Unless the laws of physics have been repealed recently, bi-wiring and
mono-wiring should make no discernable difference assuming proper
gauge wire and truly secure connections in the very first place.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

For real? Based on the laws of physics there should be no measurable
differences?

That's right, there should be no discernible differences. The only measurable
difference see by doubling-up on a speaker run is that the DC resistance (and
AC impedance) of the wire will be halved via

Rt= 1/ 1/r1+ 1/r2 where r1 and r2 are the resistances of the two parallel
runs of wire. However, since, with anything above 16 Ga lamp cord, the single
resistance or the doubled-up cable resistance will be quite a bit less than 1
Ohm, its irrelevant. To put it another way, assuming that the speaker looks
back down the speaker cable into virtually a dead-short (the "on" resistance
of a solid-state amplifier's output stage) the addition of a tenth of an ohm
(over 12-15 feet or so of speaker cable) added to a speaker load that varies
much more than that over it's own frequency range is going to make no
difference whatsoever. If 15 ft of speaker wire has a resistance of 0.6 Ohms
(I'm just making the numbers up for illustrative purposes), then doubling it
up will reduce that to 0.3 Ohms. A feat which can more easily be accomplished
by merely doubling the wire size of a single cable. On the AC side, such
mechanizations might have some affect above 50 MHz or so, where skin effect,
etc., might come into play, but this is audio; 20 Hz to 20 KHz (or maybe a
bit higher). At those frequencies any changes in capacitive or inductive
reactance caused by doubling-up the cable will have no affect on the signal
and this can easily be shown mathematically. Just use 20 KHz (or 30, or 40)
as the maximum frequency and using the inductance and capacitance per foot of
the cable to figure the inductive and capacitive reactance. Then plug those
into the standard impedance equation and notice the results. The numbers at
those frequencies are miniscule and of absolutely no consequence.

The output of both will be identical in every measurable
parameter?

If they are the same make and gauge of wire, and are both exactly the same
length, there should be absolutely no difference Kirchoff's law guarantees
that. I.E. the total voltage delta in a closed loop will be zero.

That surprises me. Which specific laws of physics are you
thinking of and how do they apply here?

Ohms law, Kirchoff's law, the effect of impedance over frequency, etc. All
first year electronics technician stuff.

[[email protected]]

On Mar 4, 8:14*pm, Sonnova wrote:
On Wed, 4 Mar 2009 14:05:17 -0800, wrote
(in article ):





On 4 Mar, 09:16, " wrote:
Please note the interpolations.

Please forgive the top-posting.

On Mar 4, 10:16*am, Greg Wormald wrote:

Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each
pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs.
Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair.
Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole
thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change
whatsoever.

Assuming that the connection(s) at the speaker are sufficiently rugged
and the speaker cables are sufficiently thick relative to their length
and the cable connectors are properly installed the result should be
"no change whatsoever".

I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive
change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check.
All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker
cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do.

I had the same phenomenon with a pair of AR3a speakers. Until I
fabricated two drilled jumpers from soft copper sheeting to replace
the little bits of OEM wire on the terminal - and - went up two
standard gauges on the speaker cables from 16ga. stranded to 12ga.
stranded. Soldered lugs that were clamped vs. banana-plugs, clamps
snugged a bit beyond hand-tight and so forth and there was no
discernable difference.

Unless the laws of physics have been repealed recently, bi-wiring and
mono-wiring should make no discernable difference assuming proper
gauge wire and truly secure connections in the very first place.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

For real? Based on the laws of physics there should be no measurable
differences?

That's right, there should be no discernible differences. The only measurable
difference see by doubling-up on a speaker run is that the DC resistance (and
AC impedance) of the wire will be halved via

Rt= 1/ 1/r1+ 1/r2 where r1 and r2 are the resistances of the two parallel
runs of wire. However, since, with anything above 16 Ga lamp cord, the single
resistance or the doubled-up cable resistance will be quite a bit less than 1
Ohm, its irrelevant. To put it another way, assuming that the speaker looks
back down the speaker cable into virtually a dead-short (the "on" resistance
of a solid-state amplifier's output stage) the addition of a tenth of an ohm
(over 12-15 feet or so of speaker cable) added to a speaker load that varies
much more than that over it's own frequency range is going to make no
difference whatsoever. If 15 ft of speaker wire has a resistance of 0.6 Ohms
(I'm just making the numbers up for illustrative purposes), then doubling it
up will reduce that to 0.3 Ohms. A feat which can more easily be accomplished
by merely doubling the wire size of a single cable. On the AC side, such
mechanizations might have some affect above 50 MHz or so, where skin effect,
etc., might come into play, but this is audio; 20 Hz to 20 KHz (or maybe a
bit higher). At those frequencies any changes in capacitive or inductive
reactance caused by doubling-up the cable will have no affect on the signal
and this can easily be shown mathematically. Just use 20 KHz (or 30, or 40)
as the maximum frequency and using the inductance and capacitance per foot of
the cable to figure the inductive and capacitive reactance. Then plug those
into the standard impedance equation and notice the results. The numbers at
those frequencies are miniscule and of absolutely no consequence.

The output of both will be identical in every measurable
parameter?

If they are the same make and gauge of wire, and are both exactly the same
length, there should be absolutely no difference Kirchoff's law guarantees
that. I.E. the total voltage delta in a closed loop will be zero.

*That surprises me. Which specific laws of physics are you

thinking of and how do they apply here?

Ohms law, Kirchoff's law, the effect of impedance over frequency, etc. All
first year electronics technician stuff.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks! Saved me the trouble.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[ST]

On Mar 5, 9:14*am, Sonnova wrote:
On Wed, 4 Mar 2009 14:05:17 -0800, wrote
(in article ):



On 4 Mar, 09:16, " wrote:
Please note the interpolations.

Please forgive the top-posting.

On Mar 4, 10:16*am, Greg Wormald wrote:

Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each
pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs.
Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair.
Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole
thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change
whatsoever.

Assuming that the connection(s) at the speaker are sufficiently rugged
and the speaker cables are sufficiently thick relative to their length
and the cable connectors are properly installed the result should be
"no change whatsoever".

I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive
change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check.
All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker
cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do.

I had the same phenomenon with a pair of AR3a speakers. Until I
fabricated two drilled jumpers from soft copper sheeting to replace
the little bits of OEM wire on the terminal - and - went up two
standard gauges on the speaker cables from 16ga. stranded to 12ga.
stranded. Soldered lugs that were clamped vs. banana-plugs, clamps
snugged a bit beyond hand-tight and so forth and there was no
discernable difference.

Unless the laws of physics have been repealed recently, bi-wiring and
mono-wiring should make no discernable difference assuming proper
gauge wire and truly secure connections in the very first place.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

For real? Based on the laws of physics there should be no measurable
differences?

That's right, there should be no discernible differences. The only measurable
difference see by doubling-up on a speaker run is that the DC resistance (and
AC impedance) of the wire will be halved via

Rt= 1/ 1/r1+ 1/r2 where r1 and r2 are the resistances of the two parallel
runs of wire. However, since, with anything above 16 Ga lamp cord, the single
resistance or the doubled-up cable resistance will be quite a bit less than 1
Ohm, its irrelevant. To put it another way, assuming that the speaker looks
back down the speaker cable into virtually a dead-short (the "on" resistance
of a solid-state amplifier's output stage) the addition of a tenth of an ohm
(over 12-15 feet or so of speaker cable) added to a speaker load that varies
much more than that over it's own frequency range is going to make no
difference whatsoever. If 15 ft of speaker wire has a resistance of 0.6 Ohms
(I'm just making the numbers up for illustrative purposes), then doubling it
up will reduce that to 0.3 Ohms. A feat which can more easily be accomplished
by merely doubling the wire size of a single cable. On the AC side, such
mechanizations might have some affect above 50 MHz or so, where skin effect,
etc., might come into play, but this is audio; 20 Hz to 20 KHz (or maybe a
bit higher). At those frequencies any changes in capacitive or inductive
reactance caused by doubling-up the cable will have no affect on the signal
and this can easily be shown mathematically. Just use 20 KHz (or 30, or 40)
as the maximum frequency and using the inductance and capacitance per foot of
the cable to figure the inductive and capacitive reactance. Then plug those
into the standard impedance equation and notice the results. The numbers at
those frequencies are miniscule and of absolutely no consequence.

The output of both will be identical in every measurable
parameter?

If they are the same make and gauge of wire, and are both exactly the same
length, there should be absolutely no difference Kirchoff's law guarantees
that. I.E. the total voltage delta in a closed loop will be zero.

*That surprises me. Which specific laws of physics are you

*****ing of and how do they apply here?

Ohms law, Kirchoff's law, the effect of impedance over frequency, etc. All
first year electronics technician stuff.

I am music lover and would like to share observation. I can't tell any
difference whatsoever nor any of my so called audiophile friends. Of
course I didn't tell them I am doing any blind test. The only aspect
of bi-wiring that I hope someone can reply is:-

1) When the woofer moves the coils suppose to generate electricity and
it suppose reverse to the amplifier or get filtered or something like
that. So when we connect the tweeter and subwoofer or woofer won't
this little current affect the tweeter?

2) By bi-wiring there's no "disturbance" in current to tweeter.

Is this possible?

Regards,
Chelvam

[Arny Krueger]

wrote in message ...
On 4 Mar, 09:16, " wrote:

Unless the laws of physics have been repealed recently, bi-wiring and
mono-wiring should make no discernable difference assuming proper
gauge wire and truly secure connections in the very first place.

For real?

Yes.

Based on the laws of physics there should be no measurable
differences?

There are always measurable differences! I can measure the difference in the
resistance between a wire the same wire as the room temperature varies.

The differences, which can be predicted theoretically and also measured, are
way too small to matter.

The output of both will be identical in every measurable
parameter?

I repeat, there are always measurable differences!

Which specific laws of physics are you thinking of and how do they apply
here?

An amplifier, speaker cables, and speakers constitute an electrical network.
There are a number of laws of physics, such as Ohm's law and Kirchoff's law
that are relevant.

[[email protected]]

On Mar 4, 5:05*pm, wrote:
On 4 Mar, 09:16, " wrote:
Unless the laws of physics have been repealed
recently, bi-wiring and mono-wiring should make
no discernable difference assuming proper
gauge wire and truly secure connections in the very first place.
For real? Based on the laws of physics there
should be no measurable differences? The
output of both will be identical in every measurable
parameter?

He didn't say that, did he?

Which specific laws of physics are you
thinking of and how do they apply here?

Right back at ya, good buddy: which specific
laws of physics are YOU thinking of and how
to they apply here? (hint: think Ohm, think
liner superposition, think Kirchoff, think
Thevenin).

[[email protected]]

On 5 Mar, 07:20, wrote:
On Mar 4, 5:05*pm, wrote:

On 4 Mar, 09:16, " wrote:
Unless the laws of physics have been repealed
recently, bi-wiring and mono-wiring should make
no discernable difference assuming proper
gauge wire and truly secure connections in the very first place.
For real? Based on the laws of physics there
should be no measurable differences? The
output of both will be identical in every measurable
parameter?

He didn't say that, did he?

In effect he did. Unless you feel measurements are somehow
indiscernable. Might want to wipe the mud off the meters if you are
having a problem with this sort of thing.



Which specific laws of physics are you
thinking of and how do they apply here?

Right back at ya, good buddy: which specific
laws of physics are YOU thinking of and how
to they apply here? (hint: think Ohm, think
liner superposition, think Kirchoff, think
Thevenin).

Right back at what good buddy? I didn't make the assertion. It's a
pretty simple question. Do the laws of physics tell us that there will
be no difference in the signal with bi-wiring or not. You seem to
fancy yourself an expert. What is the answer? will there be no
difference on your test bench?

[Codifus]

On Mar 4, 12:16*pm, " wrote:
Please note the interpolations.

Please forgive the top-posting.

On Mar 4, 10:16*am, Greg Wormald wrote:

Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each
pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs.
Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair.
Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole
thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change
whatsoever.

Assuming that the connection(s) at the speaker are sufficiently rugged
and the speaker cables are sufficiently thick relative to their length
and the cable connectors are properly installed the result should be
"no change whatsoever".

I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive
change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check.
All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker
cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do.

I had the same phenomenon with a pair of AR3a speakers. Until I
fabricated two drilled jumpers from soft copper sheeting to replace
the little bits of OEM wire on the terminal - and - went up two
standard gauges on the speaker cables from 16ga. stranded to 12ga.
stranded. Soldered lugs that were clamped vs. banana-plugs, clamps
snugged a bit beyond hand-tight and so forth and there was no
discernable difference.

Unless the laws of physics have been repealed recently, bi-wiring and
mono-wiring should make no discernable difference assuming proper
gauge wire and truly secure connections in the very first place.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

The greatest benefit of bi-wiring, as I've come to understand, is its
ability to isolate the back emf generated by the woofer from the mid-
range/tweeter. emfs are generally very small, but the emf generated by
a relatively large 8 or 12 inch woofer can have a significant effect
on the much smaller mid-range and tweeter.

I tried bi-wiring and won't go back. The effect is quite subtle, but
it's there.

I think you will tend to hear the effect of bi-wiring on music which
has very strong mid-range and bass dynamics.

Two songs in my music collection which tend to make the effect of bi-
wiring most apparent are Erykah Badu's "Other side of the game" and
"Shimmer", from Erik and Arvid.

On Eryka's song, the bass of this song, the whole album, actually, is
stupendously powerful. Eryka's gentle and soulful vocal floats above
the smooth and powerfull bottom. When my system was not bi-wired, I
would sometimes pick up that Erykah's voice was being modulated by the
bass. With bi-wiring, her voice now sails along more effortlessly
while the bass continues to thrump strongly.


For Erik and Arvid's Shimmer, this song has an incredible strong mid-
range synthesizer with a funky and strong bass section. Again, without
bi-wiring, there were times that the synthesizer sounded as if it was
being modulated by the bass. With bi-wiring, both sections sing
independently of each other in full force.


CD

[Sonnova]

On Wed, 4 Mar 2009 16:23:18 -0800, codifus wrote
(in article ):

On Mar 4, 12:16*pm, " wrote:
Please note the interpolations.

Please forgive the top-posting.

On Mar 4, 10:16*am, Greg Wormald wrote:

Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each
pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs.
Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair.
Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole
thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change
whatsoever.

Assuming that the connection(s) at the speaker are sufficiently rugged
and the speaker cables are sufficiently thick relative to their length
and the cable connectors are properly installed the result should be
"no change whatsoever".

I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive
change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check.
All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker
cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do.

I had the same phenomenon with a pair of AR3a speakers. Until I
fabricated two drilled jumpers from soft copper sheeting to replace
the little bits of OEM wire on the terminal - and - went up two
standard gauges on the speaker cables from 16ga. stranded to 12ga.
stranded. Soldered lugs that were clamped vs. banana-plugs, clamps
snugged a bit beyond hand-tight and so forth and there was no
discernable difference.

Unless the laws of physics have been repealed recently, bi-wiring and
mono-wiring should make no discernable difference assuming proper
gauge wire and truly secure connections in the very first place.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

The greatest benefit of bi-wiring, as I've come to understand, is its
ability to isolate the back emf generated by the woofer from the mid-
range/tweeter. emfs are generally very small, but the emf generated by
a relatively large 8 or 12 inch woofer can have a significant effect
on the much smaller mid-range and tweeter.

I tried bi-wiring and won't go back. The effect is quite subtle, but
it's there.

I'll just bet it is.

I think you will tend to hear the effect of bi-wiring on music which
has very strong mid-range and bass dynamics.

I've tried it on a number of different speakers, heard no difference.

[Codifus]

On Mar 4, 10:14*pm, Sonnova wrote:

I've tried it on a number of different speakers, heard no difference.

Did you try it with different types of music? Like I pointed out
earlier, it's the types of music that will more likely bring out bi-
wiring's advantages. I've seen your posts and noticed that your taste
in music tend to be classical and that you aren't keen on studio
recordings.

Well, IMO a studio recording has the tendency to more fully test the
instantaneous dynamic capability of an audio system than a classical
recording ever will. Classical music doesn't invoke the short term
dynamic that bi-wiring brings out.

I like all types of music; live, studio, classical, hip-hop, reggae
etc. Different types of music can make certain capabilities of a
system more readily apparent than other types.

CD.

[[email protected]]

On Mar 4, 7:23*pm, codifus wrote:
On Mar 4, 12:16*pm, " wrote:





Please note the interpolations.

Please forgive the top-posting.

On Mar 4, 10:16*am, Greg Wormald wrote:

Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each
pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs.
Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair.
Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole
thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change
whatsoever.

Assuming that the connection(s) at the speaker are sufficiently rugged
and the speaker cables are sufficiently thick relative to their length
and the cable connectors are properly installed the result should be
"no change whatsoever".

I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive
change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check.
All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker
cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do.

I had the same phenomenon with a pair of AR3a speakers. Until I
fabricated two drilled jumpers from soft copper sheeting to replace
the little bits of OEM wire on the terminal - and - went up two
standard gauges on the speaker cables from 16ga. stranded to 12ga.
stranded. Soldered lugs that were clamped vs. banana-plugs, clamps
snugged a bit beyond hand-tight and so forth and there was no
discernable difference.

Unless the laws of physics have been repealed recently, bi-wiring and
mono-wiring should make no discernable difference assuming proper
gauge wire and truly secure connections in the very first place.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

The greatest benefit of bi-wiring, as I've come to understand, is its
ability to isolate the back emf generated by the woofer from the mid-
range/tweeter. emfs are generally very small, but the emf generated by
a relatively large 8 or 12 inch woofer can have a significant effect
on the much smaller mid-range and tweeter.

I tried bi-wiring and won't go back. The effect is quite subtle, but
it's there.

I think you will tend to hear the effect of bi-wiring on music which
has very strong mid-range and bass dynamics.

Two songs in my music collection which tend to make the effect of bi-
wiring most apparent are Erykah Badu's "Other side of the game" and
"Shimmer", from Erik and Arvid.

On Eryka's song, the bass of this song, the whole album, actually, is
stupendously powerful. Eryka's gentle and soulful vocal floats above
the smooth and powerfull bottom. When my system was not bi-wired, I
would sometimes pick up that Erykah's voice was being modulated by the
bass. With bi-wiring, her voice now sails along more effortlessly
while the bass continues to thrump strongly.

For Erik and Arvid's Shimmer, this song has an incredible strong mid-
range synthesizer with a funky and strong bass section. Again, without
bi-wiring, there were times that the synthesizer sounded as if it was
being modulated by the bass. With bi-wiring, both sections sing
independently of each other in full force.

CD- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Those would be very poorly designed speakers in that case. Considering
that the only _actual_ separation between the two systems (Woof &
Rest) is the jumper at the terminals. What happens inside the box is
identical in either case. And in either case the crossover system(s)
remain(s) in place and in-use.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Arny Krueger]

"codifus" wrote in message
...
On Mar 4, 12:16 pm, " wrote:

The greatest benefit of bi-wiring, as I've come to understand, is its
ability to isolate the back emf generated by the woofer from the mid-
range/tweeter.

You should ask yourself - what is the physical impact of back-emfs? They
cause the impedance of the drivers to vary with frequency.

emfs are generally very small, but the emf generated by
a relatively large 8 or 12 inch woofer can have a significant effect
on the much smaller mid-range and tweeter.

That's why there are such things as crossovers. The crossovers for the
midrange and tweeter not only isolate them from the large voltage that
drives the woofer, but also from the so-called back-emf.

I tried bi-wiring and won't go back. The effect is quite subtle, but
it's there.

You expected an improvement and your expectations created the perception of
an improvement. Or, your original speaker cables were techically inadequate.

I think you will tend to hear the effect of bi-wiring on music which
has very strong mid-range and bass dynamics.

There should and are no actual strong effects due to bi-wiring if your
speaker cable is adequate to begin with. You would always be better off
simply running the second bi-wire cable in parallel with the original cable
and forget about bi-wiring.

[Codifus]

On Mar 5, 6:22*am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"codifus" wrote in message

...

On Mar 4, 12:16 pm, " wrote:
The greatest benefit of bi-wiring, as I've come to understand, is its
ability to isolate the back emf generated by the woofer from the mid-
range/tweeter.

You should ask yourself - what is the physical impact of back-emfs? They
cause the impedance of the drivers to vary with frequency.

*emfs are generally very small, but the emf generated by
a relatively large 8 or 12 inch woofer can have a significant effect
on the much smaller mid-range and tweeter.

That's why there are such things as crossovers. *The crossovers for the
midrange and tweeter not only isolate them from the large voltage that
drives the woofer, but also from the so-called back-emf.

We've been here before. Of course that's what the circuit is designed
to do, and in a perfect world, the circuit would do it.....perfectly.
You know that all electrical designs do not behave perfectly, but
pretty much perfectly. I think that bi-wiring helps the crossovers to
better isolate the woofer's signal from the id-range and tweeter's
signal.

I tried bi-wiring and won't go back. The effect is quite subtle, but
it's there.

You expected an improvement and your expectations created the perception of
an improvement. Or, your original speaker cables were techically inadequate.

I use relatively fat 12 gauge cables. I don't know if you recall, but
in another thread where my speakers kept dying and you had later
advised me on how the impedance switch was designed in my Yamaha
amplifier. The switch had 2 settings, 6 ohms and above, or 4 ohms and
below. I kept the setting at 4 ohms and below, illogically thinking
that the amp would drive the speakers harder. After several times of
having my speakers blowing their crossovers, I tried it at the other
setting and immediately noticed that the amp actually drove the
speakers harder in the 6 ohms and above setting. This correlated with
how you later described the impedance switch from looking at the
service manual. Basically, you said the switch "selects different
paris of taps on the secondary winding of the power transformer" etc.

Also, I have a Behringer SRC 2496 DAC which is pretty much just
sitting there doing nothing. I've listened to it and hate it. I bought
it because of all the wonderful mods I've heard on the net that could
really bring the SRC to life and make it a credible inexpensive DAC.
It turns out that mine was a newer version where practically
everything inside was consolidated into 3 or 4 ICs on a board, and
therefore un-modifiable. Earlier versions had 2 or 3 boards with
capacitors etc which made modding easy.

My point is that I don't always believe in every change that I make. I
try to keep myself objective. This bi-wiring I believe in, and it
makes itself apparent in certain types of music. If you don't listen
to that type of music, you may not notice it. I certainly didn't
notice it in most of my collection. But in some songs, it is quite
apparent. Like I said earlier, music with very strong mid-range and
bass power will bring out the effects of bi-wiring. On classical
music, I wouldn't really notice, unless someone can suggest some
classical music that would fit that criteria. I am more than willing
to give it a listen and compare.

I think you will tend to hear the effect of bi-wiring on music which
has very strong mid-range and bass dynamics.

There should and are no actual strong effects due to bi-wiring if your
speaker cable is adequate to begin with. You would always be better off
simply running the second bi-wire cable in parallel with the original cable
and forget about bi-wiring.

Two sets of 12 gauge cables would seem a bit over-done in my setup

CD

[Sonnova]

On Thu, 5 Mar 2009 03:22:08 -0800, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):

"codifus" wrote in message
...
On Mar 4, 12:16 pm, " wrote:

The greatest benefit of bi-wiring, as I've come to understand, is its
ability to isolate the back emf generated by the woofer from the mid-
range/tweeter.

You should ask yourself - what is the physical impact of back-emfs? They
cause the impedance of the drivers to vary with frequency.

And are blocked from the tweeter by the crossover capacitor, anyway.

emfs are generally very small, but the emf generated by
a relatively large 8 or 12 inch woofer can have a significant effect
on the much smaller mid-range and tweeter.

That's why there are such things as crossovers. The crossovers for the
midrange and tweeter not only isolate them from the large voltage that
drives the woofer, but also from the so-called back-emf.

Exactly.

I tried bi-wiring and won't go back. The effect is quite subtle, but
it's there.

You expected an improvement and your expectations created the perception of
an improvement. Or, your original speaker cables were techically inadequate.

I think you will tend to hear the effect of bi-wiring on music which
has very strong mid-range and bass dynamics.

There should and are no actual strong effects due to bi-wiring if your
speaker cable is adequate to begin with. You would always be better off
simply running the second bi-wire cable in parallel with the original cable
and forget about bi-wiring.

Electrically, either is exactly the same.

[Sonnova]

On Wed, 4 Mar 2009 07:16:01 -0800, Greg Wormald wrote
(in article ):

In article ,
Andrew Barss wrote:

I have a pair of B&W DM602 S3 speakers, and just got an Onkyo
TX-SR706 receiver. Thr msnual for the latter suggests bi-wiring
(specifically, connecting the front L/R terminals to one set of
terminals on the speakers, and connecting the rear L/R receiver
terminals to the other set of speaker terminals). So does the B&W website
(in general, not specifically for these speakers).

Is there any real advantage to doing this?

-- Andy Barss

Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each
pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs.
Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair.
Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole
thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change
whatsoever.
I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive
change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check.
All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker
cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do.

Greg

A total waste of time. If you did a double blind test of your Kabers
tri-wired and single-cable wired, I'll guarantee you that neither you nor
anyone else would be able to detect the slightest difference.

[MiNe 109]

In article ,
Sonnova wrote:

On Wed, 4 Mar 2009 07:16:01 -0800, Greg Wormald wrote
(in article ):

In article ,
Andrew Barss wrote:

I have a pair of B&W DM602 S3 speakers, and just got an Onkyo
TX-SR706 receiver. Thr msnual for the latter suggests bi-wiring
(specifically, connecting the front L/R terminals to one set of
terminals on the speakers, and connecting the rear L/R receiver
terminals to the other set of speaker terminals). So does the B&W website
(in general, not specifically for these speakers).

Is there any real advantage to doing this?

-- Andy Barss

Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each
pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs.
Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair.
Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole
thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change
whatsoever.
I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive
change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check.
All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker
cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do.

A total waste of time. If you did a double blind test of your Kabers
tri-wired and single-cable wired, I'll guarantee you that neither you nor
anyone else would be able to detect the slightest difference.

Never noticed a difference with my Kabers, even when adding amps. Going
active, OTOH, was major.

Stephen

[Sonnova]

On Wed, 4 Mar 2009 17:13:15 -0800, MiNe 109 wrote
(in article ):

In article ,
Sonnova wrote:

On Wed, 4 Mar 2009 07:16:01 -0800, Greg Wormald wrote
(in article ):

In article ,
Andrew Barss wrote:

I have a pair of B&W DM602 S3 speakers, and just got an Onkyo
TX-SR706 receiver. Thr msnual for the latter suggests bi-wiring
(specifically, connecting the front L/R terminals to one set of
terminals on the speakers, and connecting the rear L/R receiver
terminals to the other set of speaker terminals). So does the B&W website
(in general, not specifically for these speakers).

Is there any real advantage to doing this?

-- Andy Barss

Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each
pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs.
Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair.
Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole
thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change
whatsoever.
I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive
change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check.
All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker
cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do.

A total waste of time. If you did a double blind test of your Kabers
tri-wired and single-cable wired, I'll guarantee you that neither you nor
anyone else would be able to detect the slightest difference.

Never noticed a difference with my Kabers, even when adding amps. Going
active, OTOH, was major.

Stephen

You mean active crossovers? Like between the pre-amp and the power amp(s)?

[MiNe 109]

In article ,
Sonnova wrote:

Never noticed a difference with my Kabers, even when adding amps. Going
active, OTOH, was major.

You mean active crossovers? Like between the pre-amp and the power amp(s)?

Yes. The subjective reaction was to wonder what was wrong with the
passive crossovers. A direct comparison was impractical, of course, so
nay-sayers can console themselves that I'm fooling myself.

Stephen

[Greg Wormald[_2_]]

In article ,
Sonnova wrote:

On Wed, 4 Mar 2009 07:16:01 -0800, Greg Wormald wrote
(in article ):

In article ,
Andrew Barss wrote:

I have a pair of B&W DM602 S3 speakers, and just got an Onkyo
TX-SR706 receiver. Thr msnual for the latter suggests bi-wiring
(specifically, connecting the front L/R terminals to one set of
terminals on the speakers, and connecting the rear L/R receiver
terminals to the other set of speaker terminals). So does the B&W website
(in general, not specifically for these speakers).

Is there any real advantage to doing this?

-- Andy Barss

Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each
pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs.
Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair.
Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole
thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change
whatsoever.
I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive
change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check.
All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker
cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do.

Greg

A total waste of time. If you did a double blind test of your Kabers
tri-wired and single-cable wired, I'll guarantee you that neither you nor
anyone else would be able to detect the slightest difference.

bbbbbzzzzzzztttttttttt
Sorry, no prize.

My wife could tell the difference she walked into the room--without
knowing that I had done anything at all.

Please remember that expectations, as well as providing a difference
when none exists, can also delete a difference where it does exist.

Greg

[Steven Sullivan]

Greg Wormald wrote:
In article ,
Sonnova wrote:

On Wed, 4 Mar 2009 07:16:01 -0800, Greg Wormald wrote
(in article ):

In article ,
Andrew Barss wrote:

I have a pair of B&W DM602 S3 speakers, and just got an Onkyo
TX-SR706 receiver. Thr msnual for the latter suggests bi-wiring
(specifically, connecting the front L/R terminals to one set of
terminals on the speakers, and connecting the rear L/R receiver
terminals to the other set of speaker terminals). So does the B&W website
(in general, not specifically for these speakers).

Is there any real advantage to doing this?

-- Andy Barss

Bi-wiring involves separating the tweeters and woofers, and driving each
pair with separate wires from the same amplifier outputs.
Bi-amping does the same but adds a separate amplifier for each pair.
Depending on your ears, the speakers, how well the amp handles the whole
thing, etc., it may be very worthwhile or give almost no change
whatsoever.
I tri-wired my Linn Kaber speakers and immediately noticed a positive
change, so great I didn't even want to undo the changes just to check.
All I can really suggest is give it a try. As long as your speaker
cables are not too expensive this is easy (and cheap) to do.

Greg

A total waste of time. If you did a double blind test of your Kabers
tri-wired and single-cable wired, I'll guarantee you that neither you nor
anyone else would be able to detect the slightest difference.

bbbbbzzzzzzztttttttttt
Sorry, no prize.

My wife could tell the difference she walked into the room--without
knowing that I had done anything at all.

bbbbzzzttt. Not a valid control.

Please remember that expectations, as well as providing a difference
when none exists, can also delete a difference where it does exist.

Remember above all that sighted comparisons, aren't usually
sources of good data, particualrly when there is no
technically valid reason for 'biwiring' to work.

--
-S
We have it in our power to begin the world over again - Thomas Paine

[Claudio Menegoz]

Originally Posted by Andrew Barss

I have a pair of B&W DM602 S3 speakers, and just got an Onkyo
TX-SR706 receiver. Thr msnual for the latter suggests bi-wiring
(specifically, connecting the front L/R terminals to one set of
terminals on the speakers, and connecting the rear L/R receiver
terminals to the other set of speaker terminals). So does the B&W website
(in general, not specifically for these speakers).

Is there any real advantage to doing this?

-- Andy Barss

Some Onkyo receivers (ex:TX-NR809), alows you to connect the speakers on a simulated Bi amp function by using Zone 1(main) & zone 2 speaker connections.

In my experience, I moved a pair of B&W DM603 with many diferent amplifiers and getting diferent results. first It was a Yamaha M65 power amplifier (CX2 pre amp), monster wires, in general good results. Then it was a Yamaha 5.1 RXV 795a. This was in terms of audio, my biggest mistake, but movies sounds pretty well. At the end, recently I recovered and old Panasonic stereo from the 90's (SC-CH9) that was abandon and fully of dust. At the moment I was cleaning the equipment i saw the legend "bi amp, bi wiring" and decided that it worthed to connect my B&W to the small thing...... I cannot tell you how surpirse I was when I hear the sound from this conbination. At the end, bi amp & bi wiring makes the diferent to me and I re discovered the sound of my B&W that never sounded so well before. It's incredible how this aparently small amplifier can support these big speakers.