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#162
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When did home theater take over?
"S888Wheel" wrote in message
The first things most music lovers notice about vinyl are the The tics, the pops, the rumble, and the gross levels of FM & AM distortion. The audible FM & AM distortions are almost like veils that are thrown over the music to conceal it's inner beauty. How would you know? Arny & the Vinyl LP 1956-1985 and 2002-2004 Besides we are not talking about your crappy rig in particular. As opposed to your POS. OK. when I talk about the sonic advantages of LP playback It is with a real highend rig that is correctly set up in mind. Ah, the old lie that vinyl sounds better the more that you spend on it. I would not expect those advantages to manifest themselves on your inadequate rig. As if my vinyl rig is the only one I have ever heard, even recently. I said You wouldn't understand those advantages. Arny said Reading minds again, sockpuppet? Nope. Only your posts. You obviously can't read any better than you can write, sockpuppet. They tell us a lot about your severe limitations. Then, you can't read any better than you write sockpuppet. I said Don't you have a soon to be obsolete sound card to measure? Arny said Soon to be obsolete (a lie, but I'll go long with your weirdness, sockpuppet) obviously trumps obsolete for a long time, I didn't ask you to compare your new sound cards with your ols sound cards. Do try to learn to read better than you write, sockpuppet. Arny said Like much of your playback system with all those aged generators of gratuitous noise and distortion. The end result sounds far more like live music than anything a CD sourced SS driven pair of NHT 2.5is could ever muster. Arny, I have heard such a system. I was quite unimpressed. OK sockpuppet, so you lack taste & discrimination and are foolish enough to believe that a give system sounds the same no matter what room and no matter how it is set up. Arny said You've loaded up on both thermionic and mechanical noise and distortion generators, sockpuppet. I'll bet that in your state of delirium, you're quite proud of yourself! More sour grapes and class envy.. Sockpuppet, you've never answered why I should be envious of someone who is so obviously and distinctly of a lower social, economic, educational, and intellectual class than I. Bottom line is the end result. There's no accounting for taste or the lack thereof. You have to live with your mediocre system. Fortunately, my worst system is not the only system I have. I get to enjoy my excellent system. Oh, you bought something new that you haven't bragged about yet, sockpuppet? It burns you up to see others enjoying equipment you can't afford and don't understand. Thanks for showing again that in your arrogance and stupidity sockpuppet, you think you can read minds. |
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#163
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When did home theater take over?
On Thu, 1 Jan 2004 15:26:08 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote: I'm agreeing with your agreement that your biases are a generally recognized fact. And of course that's true. So shut up already. chuckle |
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#164
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When did home theater take over?
On Thu, 1 Jan 2004 15:26:08 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote: BTW Weil, how many pentodes are in your computer, TV set, VCR, or CD player? Might as well ask how many jackhammers are in your soldering iron. Please explain. No. Figure it out for yourself, Braniac. I'm not your mommy. Weil, nice job of not being accountable for what you've said, coward Your density isn't my problem. |
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#165
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When did home theater take over?
Pukey said: The object is to identify the selection. It's amazing how successful you get after a bit of practice. Like, that's an *advantage*? You really, really need to get out more........................... Unlike you, Normy is a Mormon. I'm sure you know what that means, entertainment-wise. |
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#166
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When did home theater take over?
dave weil said: BTW Weil, how many pentodes are in your computer, TV set, VCR, or CD player? Might as well ask how many jackhammers are in your soldering iron. Please explain. No. Figure it out for yourself, Braniac. I'm not your mommy. Weil, nice job of not being accountable for what you've said, coward Your density isn't my problem. Show of hands: Who understood the implication of dave's "jackhammers" comment? I did. |
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#167
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When did home theater take over?
I fear that any hearing deficiency is much more likely to be suffered by someone who is sufficiently deluded to think that vinyl provides a 'closer approach to the original sound' than does CD............... -- Get your Apogees off the back wall, get an amp with enough power to drive them, get a better tone arm and cartridge and then get your head out of your ass. Maybe then you will hear the improvement wrought by vinyl over CDs. |
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#168
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When did home theater take over?
In article ,
George M. Middius wrote: dave weil said: BTW Weil, how many pentodes are in your computer, TV set, VCR, or CD player? Might as well ask how many jackhammers are in your soldering iron. Please explain. No. Figure it out for yourself, Braniac. I'm not your mommy. Weil, nice job of not being accountable for what you've said, coward Your density isn't my problem. Show of hands: Who understood the implication of dave's "jackhammers" comment? I did. Something about the right tool for the job, as in means of transportation. It's a truck. No, it's a staircase... Stephen |
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#169
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When did home theater take over?
Arny said
The first things most music lovers notice about vinyl are the The tics, the pops, the rumble, and the gross levels of FM & AM distortion. The audible FM & AM distortions are almost like veils that are thrown over the music to conceal it's inner beauty. I said How would you know? Arny said Arny & the Vinyl LP 1956-1985 and 2002-2004 Oh, the experience of a tin eared idiot with crap turntable set ups. IOW you don't have a clue. I said Besides we are not talking about your crappy rig in particular. Arny said As opposed to your POS. OK. You are calling a Forsell Air Reference Turntable with the airbearing flywheel and a Koetsu Rosewood Sagnature Cartridge pieces of ****? LOL you are shameless is parading your class envy. Do you have any idea how stupid you look.....again? I said when I talk about the sonic advantages of LP playback It is with a real highend rig that is correctly set up in mind. Arny said Ah, the old lie that vinyl sounds better the more that you spend on it. Given the fat that I prefer the Forsell to the far more expensive Rockport Sirius III it is obvious that Arny burns another straw man. Class envy rears it's ugly head once again. I said I would not expect those advantages to manifest themselves on your inadequate rig. Arny said As if my vinyl rig is the only one I have ever heard, even recently. As if you are capable of apprecieting the difference between your junk and a legitimate highend table. You have already shown you cant. or are you forgetting your old lies now? I said You wouldn't understand those advantages. Arny said Reading minds again, sockpuppet? I said Nope. Only your posts. Arny said You obviously can't read any better than you can write, sockpuppet. You obviously didn't learn your lesson after making a fool of yourself when it comes to your own literacy. I said They tell us a lot about your severe limitations. Arny said Then, you can't read any better than you write sockpuppet. You are quite a "characture" Arny. Learn to read and write before compaining about others Arny. I said Don't you have a soon to be obsolete sound card to measure? Arny said Soon to be obsolete (a lie, but I'll go long with your weirdness, sockpuppet) obviously trumps obsolete for a long time, I said I didn't ask you to compare your new sound cards with your ols sound cards. Arny said Do try to learn to read better than you write, sockpuppet. You continue to be amazingly stupid. Of course we all know what you think a typo really is. LOL Arny said Like much of your playback system with all those aged generators of gratuitous noise and distortion. I said The end result sounds far more like live music than anything a CD sourced SS driven pair of NHT 2.5is could ever muster. Arny, I have heard such a system. I was quite unimpressed. Arny said OK sockpuppet, so you lack taste & discrimination and are foolish enough to believe that a give system sounds the same no matter what room and no matter how it is set up. This coming form a guy who proclaimed Pachalbel's Kanon is arguably one of the most emotionally moving pieces of music ever written. The parade of foolishness keeps going. Of course you are also stupid enough to assume I have only heard the NHTs in one room. The irony is that you have made lame attacks against my equipment and you obviously have never heard any of it much less all of it together in the same room I as I have. Hypocrite. Arny said You've loaded up on both thermionic and mechanical noise and distortion generators, sockpuppet. I'll bet that in your state of delirium, you're quite proud of yourself! I said More sour grapes and class envy.. Arny said Sockpuppet, you've never answered why I should be envious of someone who is so obviously and distinctly of a lower social, economic, educational, and intellectual class than I. Liar. I said Bottom line is the end result. Arny said There's no accounting for taste or the lack thereof. You do a fine job of parading your lack of taste on a daily basis here on RAO. I said You have to live with your mediocre system. Arny said Fortunately, my worst system is not the only system I have. The Bose radio being your best? LOL. I said I get to enjoy my excellent system. Arny said Oh, you bought something new that you haven't bragged about yet, sockpuppet? Nope. More sour grapes. I said It burns you up to see others enjoying equipment you can't afford and don't understand. Arny said Thanks for showing again that in your arrogance and stupidity sockpuppet, you think you can read minds. Do you ever get tired of being laughed at? |
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#170
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When did home theater take over?
(S888Wheel) wrote in message
... Arny said Just goes to show that sockpuppet can't make sense of a common figure of speech. The joke goes over Arny's head again. Looks like he does have a few things in common with Nousaine. It's that "literal" thing, Scott. S888wheel said: That is where the advantages of LPs show themselves. Arny said What advantages? The tics, the pops, the rumble, the gross levels of FM & AM distortion as shown by figure 1 at http://www.stereophile.com/analogsou...n/index4.html? No dip****. Those aren't advantages. I'm talking about the advantages that music lovers would appreciate. You wouldn't understand those advantages. And just to return to Mr. Krueger's stunted sense of humor, I guess he doesn't appreciate the irony in a) continuing to argue in one thread that Stereophile doesn't publish measurements of analog gear and in b) using Stereophile's measurements of analog gear in another thread to argue with those labels "vinyl bigots"! :-) John Atkinson Editor, Stereophile |
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#171
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When did home theater take over?
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" writes: "R. D. Davis" wrote in message Wow, it's been years since I've partaken in a good Usenet flamefest like this. [flame shield on ] answers this: how can a technology be obsolete when there are still people designing circuitry using it? No accounting for what people who have too much time on their hands do. Yes, it's weird that people sit around wasting all of that time designing circuitry for digital audio for non-computer-related uses. No accounting for what people who have too much money on their hands do. Isn't it Robin Williams who said that Cocaine is God's way of telling you that you have too much money? Same thing applies to tubes and audio reproduction. Your logic isn't not non-impeccable, but that's not surprising for someone who would resort to quoting a non-entertaining annoyance like Robin Williams. Pentodes are still being manufactured. So are buggy whips and even replicas of Wright Flyers, I understand. Do you want to take your next long trip in a Wright Flyer? Ain't gonna be much of a trip! What has that to do with the price of tea in China? The only reason that buggy whips are still being manufactured is because buggys are not obsolete, although they're, by far, outnumbered by cars. If you want one, you can still purchase one somewhere or other. As I've said, which I'll repeat in case you had difficulty comprehending it the first time around: aside from transporation purposes, like tube amps, horse drawn buggys are not obsolete and still have practical applications: you can have great fun using one to slow down the traffic of city slickers and harried suburbanites attempting to drive too fast through rural areas, probably even more fun than slowing traffic down with a tractor hauling a round bale of hay down the road in first gear. As to Wright Flyers, no comment, since I don't know anything about those, and don't plan on traveling anywhere in any type of airplane. Let's say that someone has been sold a bill of goods by a snake oil salesman. Think we should tell him about where he's headed? He's probably towards putting his vinyl LP collection out for the trash and replacing it with a collection of CDs and DVDs. Makes no differience if he's told or not, he probably won't believe that he's making any mistakes. Now then, a consumer knowing nothing about tubes may be suckered into purchasing the wrong amp and have great difficulty finding replacement tubes when the original tubes have fizzled out. It's gonna be the wrong amp either way, if the consumer is interested in high fidelity sound reproduction. Both tube and transistor amps, if well designed, can reproduce signals with very low levels of distortion. However, remember what happens when the amps are driven to the point of distortion: the solid-state amp will produce ear-grating, nerve-jangling odd-order harmonic distortion and tubes will produce pleasant-sounding even-order harmonic distortion. The clipping of the output signal with tubes is soft (gradual) and harsh (reaches a certain point, then bam!, the signal is quickly clipped). Hence, even when driven into distortion, a tube amp of the same power rating as a transistor amp, is still useful at louder decibel levels, as opposed to the transistor amp. So, you get a wider useful dynamic range with a tube amp. Of course, I will concede that for good, deep, subharmonic bass, solid state amps, with big filter caps, designed to amplify from DC to past the crossover point in a biamped system, are unbeatable by tube amps for such applications (if anyone wants to free up some space and unload their old outdated Crown DC-300A amps, I'll be glad to take them off their hands and give them a nice home!) Just because the above-quoted writer doesn't like something doesn't mean that it's obsolete. Hey, using his way of thinking, perhaps many would say that he's obsolete. :-) If tubes were relevant they would still be being used like they were 50 years ago when they were all we had. As soon as viable alternatives presented themselves, just about everybody but a few Luddites and sentimentalists, and people who want to exploit them, moved on. I wasn't saying that all home theater equipment is as valuable as hogwash, but some of it is, and, the average consumer, who doesn't know the difference, who knows zip about electronics, is likely to get conned by some random sales-droid when purchasing a home theater system. If you really meant that the first time, then I'm quite sure that you would have mentioned sales-droids the first time, not just home theater in general. Stop making excuses for misinterpreting what I wrote the first time. At least we both appear to agree about the problem of sales droids. Nahh, you're tying to backtrack on an obviously inflammatory and overly-general statement. Nahh, that's only what you think. People have budgets denominated in both time and money. They tend to get what they pay for. Sometimes. Look at how expensive cars have become and how little people get for what they spend, as compared to the large, stylish, comfortable and luxuriously upholstered cars of the 1970's. Then, look at how something similar happened to quite a bit of audio equipment as much of it, from formerly reputable manufacturers, disintegrated into rubbish with plastic front panels, designed to be discarded instead of repaired, with reduced audio quality. Bad, bad joke. Just about everybody who lived through 30+ years of vinyl-only hell like I did, fought the good fight and learned about all that crap that you're trying to pile on me. Well, perhaps there's a good explanation for your experiences. Those who didn't listen to good pressings, instead of K-Tel specials at the local five and dime store (e.g. Woolworths), understandably felt that way. :-) Even though we already had vinyl, good vinyl players, cleaners and all that jazz, we spent even more money on digital media and players. Digital sold at a stiff premium over vinyl, and we still lapped it up and went looking for more. As P.T. Barnum said, there's a sucker born every minute. Let's cut out the subjectivity and look at the situation objectively: Think carefully about what you just said, after criticizing people who pay extra for tube amps. CD's cost far less to manufacture than vinyl LPs, yet CD's cost more than vinyl LPs. Advanced aging tests show vinyl to last well over 100 years if properly cared for, and CDs have been shown to succumb to "CD rot" in less than 1/5 of that time. A large numbers of suckers are willing to be bilked by those who sell the CDs. Part of the music/input signal is done away with during the A/D process for CDs, whereas one may get a little distortion with an LP, but at least bits of sound haven't been chopped away from the recording. I can't deny how convenient CDs are to use, however, and how little maintenance they require, not to mention how much easier they are to store; however, please bear in mind the tradeoffs. OK so now its 20 years later for digital and 30 years later for solid state and a few noisy Luddites are still beating the tired old drum of tubes and vinyl. So what? They are obviously incorrigible not to mention just a little bit deaf. It's understandable that fools who are easily parted from their money should think that way. E.g., the so-called "early adapters", who feel that they must have the latest of everything newfangled, whether it's better than what it's been designed to replace or not, and the conformist copy-cats who follow the lead of the early adapters and purcahse things that they have been told are becoming popular without thinking about what they are purchasing. OK, maybe not calendar age, but mental age. Senile dementia sometimes shows up at earlier ages than usual, especially among people who have been abusing So, that is how you are trying to explain your apparent problem with thinking to us? :-) various substances. I suppose you want us to believe that you've never, ever used illegal substances or abused any of the legal ones. Never ever been high, right? Just because you're on the losing end of the debate doesn't mean that you have to resort to illogical accusations based on the workings of your imagination. ;-) Happy New Year! -- Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. |
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#172
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When did home theater take over?
"S888Wheel" wrote in message
Do you ever get tired of being laughed at? Not a problem for me. After all, I'm not so obviously afraid of who I am, like you are sockpuppet. |
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#173
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When did home theater take over?
"dave weil" wrote in message
On Thu, 1 Jan 2004 15:26:08 -0500, "Arny Krueger" wrote: I'm agreeing with your agreement that your biases are a generally recognized fact. And of course that's true. So shut up already. Obviously, I've got your figurative goat. Again. |
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#174
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When did home theater take over?
"R. D. Davis" wrote in message
In article , "Arny Krueger" writes: "R. D. Davis" wrote in message Wow, it's been years since I've partaken in a good Usenet flamefest like this. [flame shield on ] answers this: how can a technology be obsolete when there are still people designing circuitry using it? No accounting for what people who have too much time on their hands do. Yes, it's weird that people sit around wasting all of that time designing circuitry for digital audio for non-computer-related uses. Shows how completely out of touch with reality you are, Davis. No accounting for what people who have too much money on their hands do. Isn't it Robin Williams who said that Cocaine is God's way of telling you that you have too much money? Same thing applies to tubes and audio reproduction. Your logic isn't not non-impeccable, but that's not surprising for someone who would resort to quoting a non-entertaining annoyance like Robin Williams. Sue me for having a sense of humor. Pentodes are still being manufactured. So are buggy whips and even replicas of Wright Flyers, I understand. Do you want to take your next long trip in a Wright Flyer? Ain't gonna be much of a trip! What has that to do with the price of tea in China? Who said anything about tea or China. The only reason that buggy whips are still being manufactured is because buggys are not obsolete, although they're, by far, outnumbered by cars. So you have this problem with confusing niche markets with the mainstream, I see. If you want one, you can still purchase one somewhere or other. Since we've got lots of Amish in Michigan, I even know where. However, I can tell the difference between a niche market and the mainstream. As I've said, which I'll repeat in case you had difficulty comprehending it the first time around: aside from transporation purposes, like tube amps, horse drawn buggys are not obsolete and still have practical applications: you can have great fun using one to slow down the traffic of city slickers and harried suburbanites attempting to drive too fast through rural areas, probably even more fun than slowing traffic down with a tractor hauling a round bale of hay down the road in first gear. So you have this problem with confusing niche markets with the mainstream, I see. As to Wright Flyers, no comment, since I don't know anything about those, and don't plan on traveling anywhere in any type of airplane. Now that paints a picture that is compatible with being a tube bigot. Let's say that someone has been sold a bill of goods by a snake oil salesman. Think we should tell him about where he's headed? He's probably towards putting his vinyl LP collection out for the trash and replacing it with a collection of CDs and DVDs. Been there, did that only I sold almost all of it first. The trash was truely trash. Makes no differience if he's told or not, he probably won't believe that he's making any mistakes. Nice self-portrait. Now then, a consumer knowing nothing about tubes may be suckered into purchasing the wrong amp and have great difficulty finding replacement tubes when the original tubes have fizzled out. It's gonna be the wrong amp either way, if the consumer is interested in high fidelity sound reproduction. Both tube and transistor amps, if well designed, can reproduce signals with very low levels of distortion. Which then begs the question, why do it the hard, expensive, unreliable way with tubes? However, remember what happens when the amps are driven to the point of distortion: the solid-state amp will produce ear-grating, nerve-jangling odd-order harmonic distortion and tubes will produce pleasant-sounding even-order harmonic distortion. Darn, I get to spike this lie twice in a day, different conferences. It's a lie. Any push-pull amp with even modest amounts of negative feedback (hard to avoid) is going to produce copious amounts of odd-order nonlinear distortion when it clips whether its made with tubes or transistors. I got a lot of bench time dating back to the days when tubes were all we had through he present, so nobody can pull this kind of trash with me and get away with it. Theory predicts it, practice shows that the theory works, and only people who are inexperienced with measurements actually believe crap like this. The clipping of the output signal with tubes is soft (gradual) and harsh (reaches a certain point, then bam!, the signal is quickly clipped). Wrong again. One of those low-distortion tubed amps you just bragged about has more than enough inverse feedback to do a nice sharp job of clipping. Hence, even when driven into distortion, a tube amp of the same power rating as a transistor amp, is still useful at louder decibel levels, as opposed to the transistor amp. Dogma for the ignorant. Now its true that tubed amps tend to have a little more dynamic power, but that's because they have a tendency to have poorly regulated power supplies. So, you get a wider useful dynamic range with a tube amp. In the end we all buy the best power amps that we can afford. For the buck, we'll all get many more watts with solid state. While the tubed amp might have a slight dynamic power advantage, the great economics of solid state amps compared to the rotten economics of tubed amps more than compensates. Here's a cheap solid state amp that lots of people say sounds good - here's the complete spec sheet. http://www.behringer-download.de/EP1...PECS_Rev_A.pdf Find me a brand new (no used) tubed amp that beats it spec-for-spec including a 3 dB allowance (IOW the tubed amp can have as little as only half the power or 225 wpc) for your purported clipping advantage, and costs $350 USD or less. Davis, you've made so many mistakes thus far that your post is hardly worth me finishing out a response to it. But, tell you what, meet or beat my amplifier challenge and I'll respond to the rest of your post. |
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#175
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When did home theater take over?
When you're trying to make a point, it's not a good idea to introduce
"fer instances" that end up becoming the main bone of contention. Your argument stood on its own without introducing the LP v. CD argument--which will now probably swamp the home theater discussion. I can only assume that was your purpose. Does every debate in this newsgroup eventually degenerate into the umpteenth CD vs. vinyl thread? Maybe they should rename it rec.audio.analog-vs-digital  . I was never a big fan of recordsmyself since they had the annoying tendency to sound like Rice Krispies after you'd played them a few times. Therefore, in the pre-CD era, I bought mostly cassettes. If vinyl was so superior to CD, why did the record companies have to make special "equalized masters" for them so they wouldn't skip? And no, I'm not referring to the RIAA curve. * Chexxon |
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#176
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When did home theater take over?
chexxon said: Does every debate in this newsgroup eventually degenerate into the umpteenth CD vs. vinyl thread? What are you, the anti-Kroo? |
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#177
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When did home theater take over?
On Thu, 1 Jan 2004 21:51:31 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote: "dave weil" wrote in message On Thu, 1 Jan 2004 15:26:08 -0500, "Arny Krueger" wrote: I'm agreeing with your agreement that your biases are a generally recognized fact. And of course that's true. So shut up already. Obviously, I've got your figurative goat. Again. s****** |
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#178
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When did home theater take over?
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#179
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When did home theater take over?
"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message ... I fear that any hearing deficiency is much more likely to be suffered by someone who is sufficiently deluded to think that vinyl provides a 'closer approach to the original sound' than does CD............... -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering I have to agree. Having sat through a number of mastering sessions in my days it seems that quite a bit more processing was applied during the vinyl mastering/cutting sessions I observed than to the CD mastering sessions I observed. You gotta think that the nasty RIAA curve encoding and decoding with vinyl isn't getting you any closer to the original master tape either. Then there is the issue of L/R bass and volume with the cutting of the groove. Quite frankly it's amazing to me that records sound as good as they do given the limitations that the process imposes upon them. Vinyl most definitely is not the future. |
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#180
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When did home theater take over?
"Charles Tomaras" wrote in message
"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message Having sat through a number of mastering sessions in my days it seems that quite a bit more processing was applied during the vinyl mastering/cutting sessions I observed than to the CD mastering sessions I observed. Yes, and this processing was done to circumvent the technical limitations of the vinyl media. Regrettably, many modern CDs are very highly processed during mastering. However, that's done for reasons other than the limitations of the media. You gotta think that the nasty RIAA curve encoding and decoding with vinyl isn't getting you any closer to the original master tape either. The RIAA curve is a working partial solution to some of the worst inherent technical limitations of the LP medium. Then there is the issue of L/R bass and volume with the cutting of the groove. As you no doubt know, these were done to partially circumvent other inherent limitations of the LP medium. Quite frankly it's amazing to me that records sound as good as they do given the limitations that the process imposes upon them. Yes. Perceptual coding tends to degrade recordings in similar ways. The various circumventions had audible consequences in themselves, but they were generally less egregious than the problems they circumvented. Vinyl most definitely is not the future. Virtually everybody but a few noisy die-hards are glad that new music doesn't have to pass through the sonic needle's eye of vinyl media. |
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#181
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When did home theater take over?
"R. D. Davis" wrote in message
... What has that to do with the price of tea in China? The only reason that buggy whips are still being manufactured is because buggys are not obsolete, although they're, by far, outnumbered by cars. If you want one, you can still purchase one somewhere or other. As I've said, which I'll repeat in case you had difficulty comprehending it the first time around: aside from transporation purposes, like tube amps, horse drawn buggys are not obsolete and still have practical applications: you can have great fun using one to slow down the I think most people define obsolete differently. To quote Webster "a kind or style no longer current". When a mainstream technology is surpassed and no longer used in the mainstream it's obsolete. You can still buy brand new 8-bit 8088 processesors. In some applications it still makes sense. However, I think everyone would agree it's an obsolete processor for PCs. There are areas where vacuum tubes are still at the top. High power radio/tv transmitters, CRTs and microwave ovens come to mind. Audio amps isn't one of them. Both tube and transistor amps, if well designed, can reproduce signals with very low levels of distortion. However, remember what happens when the amps are driven to the point of distortion: the solid-state amp will produce ear-grating, nerve-jangling odd-order harmonic distortion and tubes will produce pleasant-sounding even-order harmonic distortion. The clipping of the output signal with tubes is soft (gradual) and harsh (reaches a certain point, then bam!, the signal is quickly clipped). Hence, even when driven into distortion, a tube amp of the same power rating as a transistor amp, is still useful at louder decibel levels, as opposed to the transistor amp. So, you get a wider useful dynamic range with a tube amp. This is wrong on many levels. First, don't let your amplifier clip. Get a bigger amp, higher efficiency speakers or turn the volume down. Second, the clipping behaviour you state is just plain incorrect. Any push-push pull amplifier whether tube or transistor will produce odd harmonic distortion when driven into clipping. Third, if the tube amp has low distortion as you suggest then it won't clip softly. It will clip just as hard as a transistor amp unless you add circuitry to control clipping behavior. Clipping control can be added to transistor amps, too. Forth, a transistor amp with the same power supply will offer more *undistorted* dynamic range due to being able to operate closer to the power supply rails. Finally, why compare same sized amps? Watts in the transistor domain are dirt cheap. Get a bigger amp and you'll never have to worry about clipping behavior. Sometimes. Look at how expensive cars have become and how little people get for what they spend, as compared to the large, stylish, comfortable and luxuriously upholstered cars of the 1970's. Then, I disagree. If you compare in inflation adjusted dollars new cars are much better value than cars of the 1970s. look at how something similar happened to quite a bit of audio equipment as much of it, from formerly reputable manufacturers, disintegrated into rubbish with plastic front panels, designed to be discarded instead of repaired, with reduced audio quality. Bull. As P.T. Barnum said, there's a sucker born every minute. Let's cut Yep, and they still cling to vinyl. out the subjectivity and look at the situation objectively: Think carefully about what you just said, after criticizing people who pay extra for tube amps. CD's cost far less to manufacture than vinyl LPs, yet CD's cost more than vinyl LPs. Nope. vinyl to last well over 100 years if properly cared for, and CDs have been shown to succumb to "CD rot" in less than 1/5 of that time. A Not true for any CDs manufactured in the last 20 years. Properly cared for vinyl means not playing it. Each play degrades the vinyl. the CDs. Part of the music/input signal is done away with during the A/D process for CDs, whereas one may get a little distortion with an LP, but at least bits of sound haven't been chopped away from the Bull. The LP is "chopped" not the CD. A properly dithered CD is identical to the master. Not close, identical. Obviously you don't understand how A/D works. For LP the master has to be rolled off on both low and high end, dynamic range compressed, and low frequencies summed into mono before cutting an LP. Just because you're on the losing end of the debate doesn't mean that you have to resort to illogical accusations based on the workings of your imagination. ;-) You are the one being illogical. Every one of your illusions can be torn down with the basic facts that have been available for decades. |
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When did home theater take over?
"R. D. Davis" wrote in message
... In article , "Rusty Boudreaux" writes: Even in it's ideal state vinyl is deficient in every measure to CD except nostalgia. Excessive wax buildup in your ears can cause you to think that. Uh, no. Even ignoring deficiencies due to non-ideal playback vinyl is less accurate. The vinyl mastering process severely limits the performance. Vinyl looses low frequency content, high frequency content, dynamic range, low frequency stereo, noise floor, and timing accuracy just to name a few. Since you made the outrageous claim how about listing one technical or audible parameter in which vinyl is superior or even equal to CD. |
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#183
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When did home theater take over?
George M. Middius wrote in message . ..
Does every debate in this newsgroup eventually degenerate into the umpteenth CD vs. vinyl thread? What are you, the anti-Kroo? The anti-WHAT?? * Chexxon |
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#184
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When did home theater take over?
"Rusty Boudreaux" wrote in message
"R. D. Davis" wrote in message ... In article , "Rusty Boudreaux" writes: Even in it's ideal state vinyl is deficient in every measure to CD except nostalgia. Excessive wax buildup in your ears can cause you to think that. Uh, no. Even ignoring deficiencies due to non-ideal playback vinyl is less accurate. The vinyl mastering process severely limits the performance. Vinyl looses low frequency content, high frequency content, dynamic range, low frequency stereo, noise floor, and timing accuracy just to name a few. Along the lines of timing accuracy, we finally have confirmation in three Stereophile review graphics of what I've been saying all along - that vinyl has massive amounts of FM distortion. Since you made the outrageous claim how about listing one technical or audible parameter in which vinyl is superior or even equal to CD. I believe the standard answer is "emotion". |
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#185
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When did home theater take over?
"Rusty Boudreaux" wrote There are areas where vacuum tubes are still at the top. High power radio/tv transmitters, CRTs and microwave ovens come to mind. Audio amps isn't one of them. Really, how so? Please site empirical examples of pre/power tube amps which fail to meet consumer needs? Please list makes and models of tube pre/power amps you have personally measured/auditioned in your home setup... last 10 years (manufactured date)? Short of that, in the last 20 years? snip theoretical quacking |
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#186
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When did home theater take over?
I said
Do you ever get tired of being laughed at? Arny said Not a problem for me. I guess that explains why you continue to parade your stupidity on RAO. Being laughed at isn't a problem for you. |
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#187
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When did home theater take over?
I said
It still tastes like ****. Lionel said I know about your sexual pervertions This coming form a guy who proudly talks about his sexual attraction to bulldogs. Lionel said but not about your dietary deviations... Since today you will be well known for your scatophagy ! Can you recommend us a wine ? ;-) I was speaking figuratively when I said your opinion still tastes like ****. I didn't realize you thought your rationalizations for class envy was literally ****. But then again, you are an idio,t so such confusion shouldn't be surprising. |
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#188
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When did home theater take over?
S888Wheel said: Do you ever get tired of being laughed at? Not a problem for me. I guess that explains why you continue to parade your stupidity on RAO. Being laughed at isn't a problem for you. Far from it, in fact. Krooger and Ferstler used to have an ongoing competition to see which one could be the bigger fool. Harold at least had the grace to retire on his laurels, exiting when his foolishness had reached an unanticipated crescendo. |
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#189
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When did home theater take over?
"S888Wheel" wrote in message ... I said Do you ever get tired of being laughed at? Arny said Not a problem for me. I guess that explains why you continue to parade your stupidity on RAO. Being laughed at isn't a problem for you. Actually, he receives a perverse pleasure from it, And I am all too willing to oblige him. ----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups ---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- |
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#190
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When did home theater take over?
"George M. Middius" wrote in message ... S888Wheel said: Do you ever get tired of being laughed at? Not a problem for me. I guess that explains why you continue to parade your stupidity on RAO. Being laughed at isn't a problem for you. Far from it, in fact. Krooger and Ferstler used to have an ongoing competition to see which one could be the bigger fool. Harold at least had the grace to retire on his laurels, exiting when his foolishness had reached an unanticipated crescendo. Post of the year! And its only the second day. ----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups ---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- |
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#191
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When did home theater take over?
"Powell" wrote in message
... "Rusty Boudreaux" wrote There are areas where vacuum tubes are still at the top. High power radio/tv transmitters, CRTs and microwave ovens come to mind. Audio amps isn't one of them. Really, how so? Please site empirical examples of pre/power tube amps which fail to meet consumer needs? I never once used the word fail. I could dig a swimming pool with a tea spoon. Although there are better tools for the task I can't really say the spoon "failed". Consumer needs are vast and tube amps will likely always have a home. Obviously some people like the way a tube amp colors the music. The rest of us want playback as close to the master as possible. You don't get that with tubes. I'll admit a glowing tube is one of the sexiest pieces of electronics. For me however, the audible shortcomings are too much to bear. How about you stepping up to Arny's Behringer challenge? Please list makes and models of tube pre/power amps you have personally measured/auditioned in your home setup... last 10 years (manufactured date)? Short of that, in the last 20 years? Why would you believe my experiences when you obviously have your own agenda? You are the one making the outlandish and unsupportable claims about tube amps. It is up to YOU to prove the rest of the professional world wrong. Good luck with that. How about YOU giving a tube amp example that technically meets or surpasses any reasonably modern SS amp. I'll even throw out power output and cost (within reason) to give you a head start. |
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#192
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When did home theater take over?
S888Wheel a écrit :
I said It still tastes like ****. Lionel said I know about your sexual pervertions This coming form a guy who proudly talks about his sexual attraction to bulldogs. Lionel said but not about your dietary deviations... Since today you will be well known for your scatophagy ! Can you recommend us a wine ? ;-) I was speaking figuratively when I said your opinion still tastes like ****. I didn't realize you thought your rationalizations for class envy was literally ****. But then again, you are an idio,t so such confusion shouldn't be surprising. Blah, blah, blah... :-) :-) :-) You are right I'm an "idio,t"... ;-) |
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#193
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Rusty Boudreaux quacking on tube amps
"Rusty Boudreaux" wrote There are areas where vacuum tubes are still at the top. High power radio/tv transmitters, CRTs and microwave ovens come to mind. Audio amps isn't one of them. Really, how so? Please site empirical examples of pre/power tube amps which fail to meet consumer needs? I never once used the word fail. So why say, "Audio amps isn't one of them"? I could dig a swimming pool with a tea spoon. Although there are better tools for the task I can't really say the spoon "failed". Maybe you need Arny's help with a bigger shovel. Consumer needs are vast and tube amps will likely always have a home. Obviously some people like the way a tube amp colors the music. If so why say, "Audio amps isn't one of them"? The rest of us... You don't speak for anyone here except Arny and yourself... two narrow minded peas in a pod. I'll admit a glowing tube is one of the sexiest pieces of electronics. You’re either unsophisticated, just easily amused or financially challenged, which is it? For me however, the audible shortcomings are too much to bear. How would you know, mr. No Experience? How about you stepping up to Arny's Behringer challenge? Maybe you need Arny's help with a bigger shovel. Please list makes and models of tube pre/power amps you have personally measured/auditioned in your home setup... last 10 years (manufactured date)? Short of that, in the last 20 years? Why would you believe my experiences when you obviously have your own agenda? Hehehe.. Broke-Ass®. You are the one making the outlandish and unsupportable claims about tube amps. So why say, "Audio amps isn't one of them"? It is up to YOU to prove the rest of the professional world wrong. Good luck with that. Hehehe... WHO has sited YOU as a "professional?" I don't see any attributes of professionalism or empirical experiences in your bandwidth, just like Arny. How about YOU giving a tube amp example that technically meets or surpasses any reasonably modern SS amp. I'll even throw out power output and cost (within reason) to give you a head start. What would you know about “modern SS amp” that didn’t come from a Musician’s Friend catalog? Please list makes and models of SS power amps you have personally measured/auditioned in your home setup and test methodology used... last 10 years (manufactured date)... , if any  ? |
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#194
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When did home theater take over?
Blah, blah, blah... :-) :-) :-) You just peaked intelectually. You are right I'm an "idio,t"... ;-) When you learn to spell "venyl" your attacks on typos will look a little less idiotic. |
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#195
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When did home theater take over?
S888Wheel a écrit :
Blah, blah, blah... :-) :-) :-) You just peaked intelectually. I was sure you would appreciate. You are right I'm an "idio,t"... ;-) When you learn to spell "venyl" your attacks on typos will look a little less idiotic. I haven't seen any spelling error but anyway I have the excuse of the one-digit-IQ ! ;-) One question, what is the brand of your toothpaste ? |
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#196
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When did home theater take over?
I haven't seen any spelling error but anyway I have the excuse of the one-digit-IQ ! ;-) You can't even get that right. Pathetic. |
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#197
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When did home theater take over?
S888Wheel a écrit :
I haven't seen any spelling error but anyway I have the excuse of the one-digit-IQ ! ;-) You can't even get that right. Pathetic. Cruel ! |
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#198
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When did home theater take over?
Lionel said
I haven't seen any spelling error but anyway I have the excuse of the one-digit-IQ ! ;-) I said You can't even get that right. Pathetic. Lionel said Cruel ! Sometimes the truth hurts. |
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#199
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When did home theater take over?
S888Wheel a écrit :
Cruel ! Sometimes the truth hurts. Your propension to hurt is like your IQ : far above the average. :-) |
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#200
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Rusty Boudreaux quacking on tube amps
On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 00:46:41 -0500, "Powell"
wrote: "Rusty Boudreaux" wrote There are areas where vacuum tubes are still at the top. High power radio/tv transmitters, CRTs and microwave ovens come to mind. Audio amps isn't one of them. Really, how so? Please site empirical examples of pre/power tube amps which fail to meet consumer needs? I never once used the word fail. So why say, "Audio amps isn't one of them"? Because audio amps is *not* one of the areas where tubes are still at the top. That seems simple enough. I could dig a swimming pool with a tea spoon. Although there are better tools for the task I can't really say the spoon "failed". Maybe you need Arny's help with a bigger shovel. You seem to be digging a remarkably deep hole with your keyboard......... Consumer needs are vast and tube amps will likely always have a home. Obviously some people like the way a tube amp colors the music. If so why say, "Audio amps isn't one of them"? Because audio amps is *not* one of the areas where tubes are still at the top. That seems simple enough. The rest of us... You don't speak for anyone here except Arny and yourself... two narrow minded peas in a pod. Actuually, he speaks for the vast majority of audiophiles, as the sales figures indicate. How about you stepping up to Arny's Behringer challenge? Maybe you need Arny's help with a bigger shovel. Maybe you need to stop ducking and diving, and answer the question. You are the one making the outlandish and unsupportable claims about tube amps. So why say, "Audio amps isn't one of them"? Because audio amps is *not* one of the areas where tubes are still at the top. That seems simple enough. It is up to YOU to prove the rest of the professional world wrong. Good luck with that. Hehehe... WHO has sited YOU as a "professional?" I don't see any attributes of professionalism or empirical experiences in your bandwidth, just like Arny. Maybe you need to stop ducking and diving, and answer the question. How about YOU giving a tube amp example that technically meets or surpasses any reasonably modern SS amp. I'll even throw out power output and cost (within reason) to give you a head start. What would you know about “modern SS amp” that didn’t come from a Musician’s Friend catalog? Please list makes and models of SS power amps you have personally measured/auditioned in your home setup and test methodology used... last 10 years (manufactured date)... , if any ?Maybe you need to stop ducking and diving, and answer the question. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
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