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Comments about CES Show "fixes"
Recently I've been reading various comments in threads about amps and
other equipment to the effect that CES demo rooms are somehow set up in ways that consumers can't or shouldn't duplicate and yet company spoksmen disclose these factoids. I'm not sure I understand this concept. I have been involved with the listening demo room set-ups for 6 companies at CES(the diverse range of Cerwin Vega, ESS, Marantz, Desktop, Christopher Hansen Audio and Lazarus). I've also thrown a few muscles into helping people like J. D'Agostino when he set up his Krell booths (in return for pizza dinners and beer on the floor). I did this at 17 CES Shows and dozens of other shows both foriegn and domestic. With the exception of a few toys like plungers to hold records onto turntable platters and interconnects or wire, no manufacturer I've ever heard of (that has lasted more than 3 years, because a few bozos who only lasted 1 show might have done "who knows what") would risk accepting anything added to their displays that wasn't researched for weeks ahead of time like their lives depended on it, BECAUSE their lives really did depend on these demos. First of all, I would say that the huge mass merchandise companies won't include almost anything they don't make themselves. So companies like Yamaha (who might have one serious demo room) won't have anything in their room that one of the corporate directors in japan hadn't approved for use (lest they lose their jobs for being too much of an independent-thinker and not enough of a slavish team player). Moving down the food chain, companies that had smaller ponds where they were bigger fish, (companies like Nakamichi, NAD or Proton level players), would work on their demo presentations for weeks before the show and unless they had a co-op promotion with someone, their displays were absolutely firm weeks before "show-time". In the more esoteric equipment rooms like Krell, B&K Components or Conrad Johnson there were two perspectives to consider. Either the speakers and other equipment chosen were acceptable to most of their current dealers and/or the dealers they wanted to court, or they went for a pair of the best possible sounding speakers they could borrow and then took the advice of the speaker maker on how to set them up. The speaker companies were almost uniformly opposed to ad hoc "showtime" changes to their displays for 2 reasons. #1 they knew what amps, turntable/cartridge combos, wire, CD player etc. would make their speakers sound the best possible, and that would be all they would use. More importantly it was the manufacturers who wanted to keep any "acoustic presentation improvement products" a secret, so they would benefit from better sound to steal sales away from other manufacturers who didn't have this trick product. This meant that speaker manufacturers would audition every possible CD player, amp, phono cartridge etc. and after eliminating products which would turn off their dealer base and potential new dealers, they would pick the one that made their speakers sound the best. #2 they didn't want retailers saying, "My demo room isn't set up like this" or "Our store doesn't sell product XYZ, so could you please demo your stuff without product XYZ in the room or I can't be sure I want to buy YOUR product"." Either of these suggestions is death in the "confidence" arena of selling. Actually this helped products like Monster Cable which was the product most likely to be unobjectionable if not a better sounding product. So there was always a fine line that most manufacturers tread with their demo displays. 99% of the lobbying to get products into displays with high traffic is done weeks or months before the show. I often pioneered ways to make product demos sound better. The electrical line noise in Las Vegas and Chicago at showtime is pretty incredible. So I would often use an array of very high power, isolated, uninterruptible power supplies in my displays. The building lights would go dim when I powered up my listening rooms first thing in the morning, but I didn't suffer the background noises and power brownouts that everyone else experienced. I'd also have an array of amplifiers available for use if dealers wanted to hear a certain fave amp with a speaker they were consiodering buying from me. These amps varied greatly from Carver 500s to B&K Components ST 140s to Conrad Johnsons to Bryston to NAD to Krell to Meitner to Acoustical Mnfrg (Quad) to anything else that made the speaker I was selling sound great (or at least okay). I would listen for hours deciding which amps and wire to preconfigure and then which program material to use with which combo. No company president I knew would be willing to take on any new piece of equipment or room treatment unless they were sure it would help them sell their own stuff. If everyone else was using something in the way of room treatment I know a dozen company presidents who purposely wouldn't have that stuff in their room and would find some other way to make their room sound good. That way company president X could say, "It isn't the speaker (amp, etc) that my competitor, Mr. Y is selling that sounds good, it's all that (insert room treatment product name here) that (insert room treatment product name here again) paid them to put in their room. So of course not only can't you trust Mr. Y but since you will never convince your local customers to buy all that stuff from (insert room treatment product here) so you shouldn't be making demos with your rooms full of stuff that will make your local retail customers wonder about your demos (or worse yet, your local retail customers might ask you what your equipmment sounds like without that room treatment stuff)". There are exceptions to every rule and retailers like Lyric in New York could sell almost anything they tell their customers is "good", no matter what it is. But these retailers can't be influenced at shows. In fact Lyric doesn't want any other retailer in the USA selling something that Lyric knows sounds good. So it isn't going to help many manufacturers to have their stuff in every demo room at CES (speaker wire companies excepted). In addition any product that is universally accepted doesn't need to have their stuff in every display at CES. Most speaker companies would have wanted to use Mark Levinson amps or maybe Koetsu phono cartridges at CES but not many of them could arrange it. Once in a while companies would do anything to use a product in their displays. If a certain speaker that sounds great is notorious for making some amps sound bad, then quite a few amp companies will want to show listeners that their amp sounds great with this speaker. The same was true for turntable manufacturers and fussy cartridges etc. It seems ludicrous in an industry built on entreprenuers who are brazen and secretive and who attack their competitors visciously at every possible turn, to find all of them going along like sheep according some unwritten rules from anybody. Just imagine how important it is for companies to make 25-30% of their sales or contacts for sales at CES. This means if they do even $300,000 in yearly sales you'd have to pay them $50k to risk their company's sales by putting your stuff in their demo room. Sure, there are some products that people might always want (especially if they get to take them home afterwards), but the products would have to be the kind that would never put off a potential sale to a retailer and it would also have to be something competitors can't bad-mouth me about. I didn't get caught when a retailer would say "Your competitor says your speakers only sound good because you demo them with Krell amps." because I would then demo that speaker with anything from a Marantz receiver to a Carver cube to a Bryston or Meridian amp or even the lowest powered NAD receiver. But that's only because I was prepared. Most other people just wouldn't take any chances with their biggest promotional week of the year. Finally everyone should beware almost anything a manufacturer says to anyone except their mothers and their deathbed confessors. If you are a retailer a manufacturer will always want to reassure you. If you are a magazine employee, manufacturers will always say whatever it will take to get a good review for their own products or to sow the seeds of doubt about a competitor's product. To everyone else, manufacturers don't really need to tell you anything unless you are an attractive member of the opposite sex (or the same sex if that's where they're at). The real "secrets" manufacturers have are disclosed only to their most important retailers and magazine reviewers, because if too many people get this info it isn't a "valuable" secret any more. So unless you can make big sales for a manufacturer you will likely not get anything truthful, and sometimes they will just be testing your gullibility by telling you wild (read: untruthful) stories to see if you'll repeat them. Sometimes a new employee will blab something to the wrong person or a useless blabbermouth "nobody", but they usually get fired soon afterwards. Mystique requires mystery and half truths, and telling the real story to anyone except people you've made big sales with for years and years just doesn't happen for any company that wants to stay in business. If anything Paul Klipsch pioneered a kind of cynicism with his "Bull****" buttons. Unfortunately some of the things I read about in this forum, that have supposedly been disclosed by some manufacturer at an audio shows sounds like the kind of stuff either designed to test a person's gullibility or would have been said by a company employee who didn't stay in the audio business very long (either the employee or the company or both). If anyone isn't willing to say that (Name like Ed Meitner, John Beyer, Sid Harmon, or someone else you can check with) said something specific, and can thus be checked back with to verify, then it isn't likely true. Sometimes with the right amount of alcohol or the euphoria of large written orders (from credit worthy retailers and distributors) some notables have said some pretty outrageous things. But it's rare and they usually beg off afterwards with "I was misquoted" or "drunk" or "she made it sound like she wanted to go back to my room". It's a blabby business so if you blab too much people get too much ammunition to use against you and it really can make your sales suffer especially combined with the vaguaries of economic ups and downs, retailer politics and squirrely magazine reviewers. TTG -- We don't get enough sand in our glass |
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Comments about CES Show "fixes"
watch king wrote:
It's a blabby business so if you blab too much people get too much ammunition to use against you and it really can make your sales suffer especially combined with the vaguaries of economic ups and downs, retailer politics and squirrely magazine reviewers. TTG That is also the impression I have from your post, anecdotes. What do you want to express with it? What is your opinion about the things you tell here. Did you in fact relay anything with it? -- ciao Ban Bordighera, Italy |
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Comments about CES Show "fixes"
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Comments about CES Show "fixes"
Sorry that a few of the readers here couldn't understand my initial
post in this thread. I tried to have a few audiophiles and audiophile product makers check out my text and they all understood exactly what I was trying to describe. Manufacturers of high end audio products would never tell "secrets" to consumers at CES. They sell to retailers and so they only care 90% of the time about retailers or distributors and the other 10% of the time they care about magazine people. It's the retailer's job to deal with consumers. Manufacturers in general would prefer that consumers not be able to visit CES. As to whether I am a retailer "too"(?), that's how I started. I sold high end hifi in a store that specialized in Acoustical Manufacturing (Quad) products as their primary line. I sold lots of LS3/5a loudspeakers and lots of other mid fi electronics and speakers too. I visited the stores of all the other retailers in Montreal and was lucky because Montreal had the best mix of American, Canadian, British, Japanese and continental European products in North America or Europe. It was a very wide ranging education. That's where I met Ed Meitner. He was a service manager at Norm Yaeger and Associates (the Celestion distributor) and I sold Celestion speakers. The service manager in the store I worked in was Albert Leccese. Listening to consumers explain what kind of sound they wanted during 3 years in retail was educational. Some American audio companies offered me jobs doing product training to store sales people because these manufacturers thought I was able to clearly explain the facts about how audio worked and why some products sounded better than others. It was pretty easy as a retail salesperson/buyer to determine which audio products sounded better than others and which sounded best for the money. So when I talk about how some retailers like Lyric in NYC would like to be the exclusive North American retailers for the best sounding audio products at each key price point (the way Lyric was once the worldwide exclusive retailer for Mark Levinson audio products), it is a reflection of having been a retail salesperson and buyer, having trained retail salespeople for audio manufacturers and having sold products to Lyric. It just makes sense and should be easy to understand. I pick Lyric because they have been successful in the audio business for a reasonable amount of time and much of their longevity is based on their ability to recognize an audio product that either sounds the best in its category or sounds the best for the money in its category. The staff at Lyric audition products both in their store and at various shows like CES. They recognize products that either sound the best overall, or those that sound best for the price they have to pay for them. While they may sell other products that consumers ask them to sell (whether those products are credible or not doesn't affect the purchase of Lyric's core line-up), whenever Lyric identifies a product that sounds the best for the money it costs them as retailers, or products that just sound better than anything else in that product category, they try to be the exclusive retailers for that product in the largest possible territory. They do this so they can set the price for their chosen products in their sales territory. Making a profit is essential for a retailer so if there is no profit in a product there is no way a retailer can sell it. Exclusivity helps a retailer sell a product profitably. Manufacturers also realize that it is important for retailers to make a profit so they help retailers to do this. It's the retailer's job to explain things to consumers and to help consumers if there is a problem. Also most high end manufacturers don't make complete systems so the high end retailer has the additional job of finding and stocking the other parts of the system that a manufacturer doesn't make. Retailers also prefer that consumers not be able to gain entry to CES demo rooms because there is only 1 week to try to audition as many products as possible and consumers just get in the way of this process. So neither manufacturers or retailers (or distributors) would feel like wasting time on consumers at CES. CES is set up to be a business to business interaction and consumers are not part of the equation of CES. Perhaps there are unsuccessful manufacturers with time on their hands at CES, and the unsuccessful might say just about anything, but if these unsuccessful companies don't know the audio business well enough to survive they aren't credible. So unless we are discussing companies that won't stay in business because they have no sense of the audio business, the notion that there are "insider secrets" that get revealed to audio consumers at CES is nonsense. Yes, some accessory product companies may rent space in consumer audio demo rooms so retailers can see their products. Likely as not the people in the demo room couldn't care if these accessory products worked or not, and if these unnecessary products degraded the sound of a successful manufacturers demo, they'd be tossed into the trash. there are no after hours invasions and set-ups because CES has heavy security and no one gets into a room for any reason after show hour closing once that room's staff leave (that midnight set-up comment was super ludicrous because CES has very tough security to prevent thefts and CES would never risk lawsuits by very hyper high end audio people because anyone was allowed illegal access to any demo rooms after the staff left [that idea must have been a joke right?]). Even if these ancillary products worked it's unlikely that manufacturer staff would waste their time explaining how someone else's product worked. Successful manufacturers don't have a spare minute at CES to talk to anyone but dealers, distributors and magazine people. It is very unlikely that a manufacturer would claim to be telling a consumer some kind of "insider secret" unless the teller is an unsuccessful or unknowledgable demo room staff person. Since there are some manufacturers who are trying to sell products based on audio legitimacy even they can't explain, it's hard to imagine any manufacturer telling anything to a consumer that would really reveal the secret workings of the audio business. Most successful audio manufacturers would love to reduce the numbers of their competitors by putting as many of them out of business as possible and these dozens of ultra-competitive manufacturers would use exactly the kind of "secrets" that some people posting here claim they hear about at CES. There are no "well kept secrets" or "gentlemen's agreements" in the audio business because there are so many huge egos in the audio business that no secrets like that could be kept from being broadcast worldwide for more than about 5 minutes when manufacturers throw dirt at each other. To make out that the audio business is a gentlemen's business with unspoken rules of behavior and secrecy is ridiculous except in the mind of inventive conspiracy theorists. So unless a person posting here can tell you who said exactly what about what product or which CES staff authorized after-hours demo room break-ins, so everyone can verify those words with the teller of this "secret" or "industry-wide agreement" don't believe any of it. Watchking -- We don't get enough sand in our glass |
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Comments about CES Show "fixes"
watch king wrote:
Sorry that a few of the readers here couldn't understand my initial post in this thread. neither this one Most successful audio manufacturers would love to reduce the numbers of their competitors by putting as many of them out of business as possible and these dozens of ultra-competitive manufacturers would use exactly the kind of "secrets" that some people posting here claim they hear about at CES. There are no "well kept secrets" or "gentlemen's agreements" in the audio business because there are so many huge egos in the audio business that no secrets like that could be kept from being broadcast worldwide for more than about 5 minutes when manufacturers throw dirt at each other. To make out that the audio business is a gentlemen's business with unspoken rules of behavior and secrecy is ridiculous except in the mind of inventive conspiracy theorists. So unless a person posting here can tell you who said exactly what about what product or which CES staff authorized after-hours demo room break-ins, so everyone can verify those words with the teller of this "secret" or "industry-wide agreement" don't believe any of it. Watchking Watch, you wouldn't make a good marketing guy despite the offers of the manufacturers. And it is not the logic or the argumentation, but the confusion. Jumping from one topic to the other you want to appear informed and understanding. But it is overloaded with irrelevant details, the few interesting informations are covered by the overflowing amount of words, short: forget the career as a marketing guy. Train yourself to express yourself at least in a pseudo-scientific jargon and restrain from too many judgements. To make out that the audio business is a gentlemen's business with unspoken rules of behavior and secrecy is ridiculous except in the mind of inventive conspiracy theorists. This sentence is an example of how *not* to say something. -- ciao Ban Bordighera, Italy |
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Comments about CES Show "fixes"
On 8/1/04 5:28 AM, in article nJ2Pc.225788$XM6.168288@attbi_s53, "Ban"
wrote: Watch, you wouldn't make a good marketing guy despite the offers of the manufacturers. I wouldn't pass that judgment. First point is that many marketing types (as well as most people) do exactly that when excited and enthusiastic. Secondly - informal prose is *not* marketing communications. If other companies are trying to get him "on board" it is probably due to his talents or perceived talents in the arena outside of Usenet posts. It is tempting, and also incorrect, in forming a complete opinion of someone's talents and capabilities from their Usenet posts. I think if this guy has job offers or at least interested parties - who are we to discourage him or be in any kind of position to judge his abilites? And it is not the logic or the argumentation, but the confusion. Jumping from one topic to the other you want to appear informed and understanding. But it is overloaded with irrelevant details, the few interesting informations are covered by the overflowing amount of words, short: forget the career as a marketing guy. Train yourself to express yourself at least in a pseudo-scientific jargon and restrain from too many judgements. Merketing Communications is not not NOT Usenet posting - how can you possibly suss out this guy's abilities based upon a disjointed Usenet post? To make out that the audio business is a gentlemen's business with unspoken rules of behavior and secrecy is ridiculous except in the mind of inventive conspiracy theorists. This sentence is an example of how *not* to say something. What is the "correct" way? I think he sums it up rather nicely. |
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Comments about CES Show "fixes"
B&D wrote:
On 8/1/04 5:28 AM, in article nJ2Pc.225788$XM6.168288@attbi_s53, "Ban" wrote: snip Watch, you wouldn't make a good marketing guy despite the offers of the manufacturers. I wouldn't pass that judgment. First point is that many marketing types (as well as most people) do exactly that when excited and enthusiastic. Secondly - informal prose is *not* marketing communications. If other companies are trying to get him "on board" it is probably due to his talents or perceived talents in the arena outside of Usenet posts. It is tempting, and also incorrect, in forming a complete opinion of someone's talents and capabilities from their Usenet posts. I think if this guy has job offers or at least interested parties - who are we to discourage him or be in any kind of position to judge his abilites? I judge it because I have read it. He gives his opinions on some manufacturers marketing methods, and I give it on his abilities to convey his opinions. I'm judging it, because I cannot understand his words. To me it appears confused and without much relevance. If you write in a forum like this, you must be ready to accept whatever answer is coming. He has not answered to any thread but puts a long post of impressions, so I also expressed my impressions. And it is not the logic or the argumentation, but the confusion. Jumping from one topic to the other you want to appear informed and understanding. But it is overloaded with irrelevant details, the few interesting informations are covered by the overflowing amount of words, short: forget the career as a marketing guy. Train yourself to express yourself at least in a pseudo-scientific jargon and restrain from too many judgements. Merketing Communications is not not NOT Usenet posting - how can you possibly suss out this guy's abilities based upon a disjointed Usenet post? So you think we are able to distinguish and change our writing style? Maybe the effort to eliminate spelling errors or presentation is not that much, but I think if someone cannot make clear what he wanted to express in Usenet, he will neither accomplish it in marketing. His OP seems to give a hint about such offer. To make out that the audio business is a gentlemen's business with unspoken rules of behavior and secrecy is ridiculous except in the mind of inventive conspiracy theorists. This sentence is an example of how *not* to say something. What is the "correct" way? I think he sums it up rather nicely. I do not know, was he referring to anybody or is it a general statement? He talkes like an Italian would do, a colourful language overly filled with deep-sounding words, a roundabout. (self censored) I erased this part, because it wouldn't have passed the moderators. :-( -- ciao Ban Bordighera, Italy |
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Comments about CES Show "fixes"
On 8/1/04 12:20 PM, in article LL8Pc.209494$JR4.192386@attbi_s54, "Ban"
wrote: Merketing Communications is not not NOT Usenet posting - how can you possibly suss out this guy's abilities based upon a disjointed Usenet post? So you think we are able to distinguish and change our writing style? Maybe the effort to eliminate spelling errors or presentation is not that much, but I think if someone cannot make clear what he wanted to express in Usenet, he will neither accomplish it in marketing. His OP seems to give a hint about such offer. They require different styles - poets, prose both formal and informal, fiction, journalism, etc - all have people who are better or worse at either. I am not saying that he is good, bad or otherwise, just that it is difficult to form an accurate opinion based upon Usenet posts. And, of course, you can have an opinion about whatever you like based upon any criteria you choose. |
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