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#1
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OT Political
I was prompted to read the article on Global Warming in the Sept. issue of
Nat.Geo. Very well done and informative. I believe that my point in mentioning it in the first place was misconstrued a bit. To clarify, I am not disputing that the globe is apparently warming. The point I was making is that I don't see the productive side of getting personally offended when someone doesn't share someone else's personal concern..meaning: The globe is warming, causes are many, varied and open to discussion. Quoting from the opening of the Nat. Geo. article.. "But even Kyoto would barely slow the rise of heat trapping gases. Controlling the increase ' would take 40 successful Kyotos,' says Jerry Mahlman of the National Center for Atmospheric research. But we've got to do it."..HOW???? I driver a fuel efficient car, I insulate my structures correctly, I recycle and I've just signed up to buy my electricity from renewable sources. If we all do all we can, it will still take immeasurably more to make a difference. I don't see how blaming someone for not lamenting life because they can't stop Global Warming is helpful. I find that worrying about things I can't control usually keeps me from action in an area that I can make a difference in. Anyway.... John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
#2
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Ah, a topic I really can talk about. Yes, the studies have said that Kyoto
wouldn't change things all that much, and that's why I've said that it's not worth changing economical structures in order to do 1% better. With the implementation of Kyoto the outcome would be that no one would adversely be affected but the major petrolium users, so that means us. Since most of the technology in the world comes from us, it doesn't make sense to deny the world the possibility of coming up with technology that would free the world from the oil constraints. It also doesn't do anything towards lessening global warming because countries that are signatories of the accord could sell off their overages to countries that had deficiences, thus allow countries like India and China to continue to over produce CO2 while countries in Africa who don't burn anything worth concern could profit from selling their own underages and the world would still be the same. Not much new here. -- Roger W. Norman SirMusic Studio "Blind Joni" wrote in message ... I was prompted to read the article on Global Warming in the Sept. issue of Nat.Geo. Very well done and informative. I believe that my point in mentioning it in the first place was misconstrued a bit. To clarify, I am not disputing that the globe is apparently warming. The point I was making is that I don't see the productive side of getting personally offended when someone doesn't share someone else's personal concern..meaning: The globe is warming, causes are many, varied and open to discussion. Quoting from the opening of the Nat. Geo. article.. "But even Kyoto would barely slow the rise of heat trapping gases. Controlling the increase ' would take 40 successful Kyotos,' says Jerry Mahlman of the National Center for Atmospheric research. But we've got to do it."..HOW???? I driver a fuel efficient car, I insulate my structures correctly, I recycle and I've just signed up to buy my electricity from renewable sources. If we all do all we can, it will still take immeasurably more to make a difference. I don't see how blaming someone for not lamenting life because they can't stop Global Warming is helpful. I find that worrying about things I can't control usually keeps me from action in an area that I can make a difference in. Anyway.... John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
#3
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Ah, a topic I really can talk about. Yes, the studies have said that Kyoto
wouldn't change things all that much, and that's why I've said that it's not worth changing economical structures in order to do 1% better. With the implementation of Kyoto the outcome would be that no one would adversely be affected but the major petrolium users, so that means us. Since most of the technology in the world comes from us, it doesn't make sense to deny the world the possibility of coming up with technology that would free the world from the oil constraints. It also doesn't do anything towards lessening global warming because countries that are signatories of the accord could sell off their overages to countries that had deficiences, thus allow countries like India and China to continue to over produce CO2 while countries in Africa who don't burn anything worth concern could profit from selling their own underages and the world would still be the same. Not much new here. -- Roger W. Norman SirMusic Studio "Blind Joni" wrote in message ... I was prompted to read the article on Global Warming in the Sept. issue of Nat.Geo. Very well done and informative. I believe that my point in mentioning it in the first place was misconstrued a bit. To clarify, I am not disputing that the globe is apparently warming. The point I was making is that I don't see the productive side of getting personally offended when someone doesn't share someone else's personal concern..meaning: The globe is warming, causes are many, varied and open to discussion. Quoting from the opening of the Nat. Geo. article.. "But even Kyoto would barely slow the rise of heat trapping gases. Controlling the increase ' would take 40 successful Kyotos,' says Jerry Mahlman of the National Center for Atmospheric research. But we've got to do it."..HOW???? I driver a fuel efficient car, I insulate my structures correctly, I recycle and I've just signed up to buy my electricity from renewable sources. If we all do all we can, it will still take immeasurably more to make a difference. I don't see how blaming someone for not lamenting life because they can't stop Global Warming is helpful. I find that worrying about things I can't control usually keeps me from action in an area that I can make a difference in. Anyway.... John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
#4
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Roger W. Norman wrote: It also doesn't do anything towards lessening global warming because countries that are signatories of the accord could sell off their overages to countries that had deficiences, thus allow countries like India and China to continue to over produce CO2 while countries in Africa who don't burn anything worth concern could profit from selling their own underages and the world would still be the same. Actually China is attempting to do more to solve the problem than the US is. Pick up the new issue of Newsweek. Much of it is devoted to environmental and energy issues. A very good read. You can also see it online: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4264305/site/newsweek/ |
#5
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Roger W. Norman wrote: It also doesn't do anything towards lessening global warming because countries that are signatories of the accord could sell off their overages to countries that had deficiences, thus allow countries like India and China to continue to over produce CO2 while countries in Africa who don't burn anything worth concern could profit from selling their own underages and the world would still be the same. Actually China is attempting to do more to solve the problem than the US is. Pick up the new issue of Newsweek. Much of it is devoted to environmental and energy issues. A very good read. You can also see it online: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4264305/site/newsweek/ |
#6
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Actually China is attempting to do more to solve the problem than the US
is. I would think this would be the case as they are starting form a much "dirtier" place so any attempt will yield a bigger result percentage wise. John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
#7
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Actually China is attempting to do more to solve the problem than the US
is. I would think this would be the case as they are starting form a much "dirtier" place so any attempt will yield a bigger result percentage wise. John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
#8
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Blind Joni wrote: Actually China is attempting to do more to solve the problem than the US is. I would think this would be the case as they are starting form a much "dirtier" place so any attempt will yield a bigger result percentage wise. Well, the lopsidedness of what the U.S. has been consuming in energy resources for many years now is disgraceful, not to mention down right embarrasing. Your trivialization of the Chinese trying to do something about *their* responsibility is very telling. If I wasn't American, I would be tempted to call us ignorant pigs, too. And it is justifiable with statements such as yours. I agree this is NOT a party line issue. But there DOES seem to be a difference on which way the parties lean. And their degree of concern about the health of our (one and only) planet. |
#9
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Blind Joni wrote: Actually China is attempting to do more to solve the problem than the US is. I would think this would be the case as they are starting form a much "dirtier" place so any attempt will yield a bigger result percentage wise. Well, the lopsidedness of what the U.S. has been consuming in energy resources for many years now is disgraceful, not to mention down right embarrasing. Your trivialization of the Chinese trying to do something about *their* responsibility is very telling. If I wasn't American, I would be tempted to call us ignorant pigs, too. And it is justifiable with statements such as yours. I agree this is NOT a party line issue. But there DOES seem to be a difference on which way the parties lean. And their degree of concern about the health of our (one and only) planet. |
#10
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Blind Joni wrote:
the lopsidedness of what the U.S. has been consuming in energy resources for many years now is disgraceful What are you ****ed at me for? I wasn't trivializing anything jsut stating a perspective based on the state of affairs. In my limited understanding the US uses about as much energy percentage wise as it produces relative to the world as a whole. Change 'produces' to 'controls' and you're getting close. I also thought we were one of the "cleanest" countries around..or I would hope we are after all this time of environmental awareness. Is this not the case? Not even close. Discirminate between 'produce' and 'extract' and it gets really scary... |
#11
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Blind Joni wrote:
the lopsidedness of what the U.S. has been consuming in energy resources for many years now is disgraceful What are you ****ed at me for? I wasn't trivializing anything jsut stating a perspective based on the state of affairs. In my limited understanding the US uses about as much energy percentage wise as it produces relative to the world as a whole. Change 'produces' to 'controls' and you're getting close. I also thought we were one of the "cleanest" countries around..or I would hope we are after all this time of environmental awareness. Is this not the case? Not even close. Discirminate between 'produce' and 'extract' and it gets really scary... |
#12
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In article ,
Kurt Albershardt wrote: Blind Joni wrote: the lopsidedness of what the U.S. has been consuming in energy resources for many years now is disgraceful What are you ****ed at me for? I wasn't trivializing anything jsut stating a perspective based on the state of affairs. In my limited understanding the US uses about as much energy percentage wise as it produces relative to the world as a whole. Change 'produces' to 'controls' and you're getting close. I also thought we were one of the "cleanest" countries around..or I would hope we are after all this time of environmental awareness. Is this not the case? Not even close. I got a lesson in coporate ways this weekend I did a county harvest festival and the Parks and rec guys were all driving these electric egg shaped buggies(as opposed to the golf carts of past years) The director told me that they were DONATED(beacuse at 7000$ each none were selling) but the car company(I think it was GM) was trying to get enough of them in circulation to raise their coporate fuel mileage average it seems you can make lots of piggish SUV as long as your overallfleet mileage average fits the governments mandates George |
#13
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In article ,
Kurt Albershardt wrote: Blind Joni wrote: the lopsidedness of what the U.S. has been consuming in energy resources for many years now is disgraceful What are you ****ed at me for? I wasn't trivializing anything jsut stating a perspective based on the state of affairs. In my limited understanding the US uses about as much energy percentage wise as it produces relative to the world as a whole. Change 'produces' to 'controls' and you're getting close. I also thought we were one of the "cleanest" countries around..or I would hope we are after all this time of environmental awareness. Is this not the case? Not even close. I got a lesson in coporate ways this weekend I did a county harvest festival and the Parks and rec guys were all driving these electric egg shaped buggies(as opposed to the golf carts of past years) The director told me that they were DONATED(beacuse at 7000$ each none were selling) but the car company(I think it was GM) was trying to get enough of them in circulation to raise their coporate fuel mileage average it seems you can make lots of piggish SUV as long as your overallfleet mileage average fits the governments mandates George |
#14
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Do a little research into what happened to GM's EV-1 all electric car.
George wrote: In article , Kurt Albershardt wrote: Blind Joni wrote: the lopsidedness of what the U.S. has been consuming in energy resources for many years now is disgraceful What are you ****ed at me for? I wasn't trivializing anything jsut stating a perspective based on the state of affairs. In my limited understanding the US uses about as much energy percentage wise as it produces relative to the world as a whole. Change 'produces' to 'controls' and you're getting close. I also thought we were one of the "cleanest" countries around..or I would hope we are after all this time of environmental awareness. Is this not the case? Not even close. I got a lesson in coporate ways this weekend I did a county harvest festival and the Parks and rec guys were all driving these electric egg shaped buggies(as opposed to the golf carts of past years) The director told me that they were DONATED(beacuse at 7000$ each none were selling) but the car company(I think it was GM) was trying to get enough of them in circulation to raise their coporate fuel mileage average it seems you can make lots of piggish SUV as long as your overallfleet mileage average fits the governments mandates George |
#15
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Do a little research into what happened to GM's EV-1 all electric car.
George wrote: In article , Kurt Albershardt wrote: Blind Joni wrote: the lopsidedness of what the U.S. has been consuming in energy resources for many years now is disgraceful What are you ****ed at me for? I wasn't trivializing anything jsut stating a perspective based on the state of affairs. In my limited understanding the US uses about as much energy percentage wise as it produces relative to the world as a whole. Change 'produces' to 'controls' and you're getting close. I also thought we were one of the "cleanest" countries around..or I would hope we are after all this time of environmental awareness. Is this not the case? Not even close. I got a lesson in coporate ways this weekend I did a county harvest festival and the Parks and rec guys were all driving these electric egg shaped buggies(as opposed to the golf carts of past years) The director told me that they were DONATED(beacuse at 7000$ each none were selling) but the car company(I think it was GM) was trying to get enough of them in circulation to raise their coporate fuel mileage average it seems you can make lots of piggish SUV as long as your overallfleet mileage average fits the governments mandates George |
#16
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Thanks Pete. I'll check that out.
-- Roger W. Norman SirMusic Studio "Pete Dimsman" wrote in message ... Roger W. Norman wrote: It also doesn't do anything towards lessening global warming because countries that are signatories of the accord could sell off their overages to countries that had deficiences, thus allow countries like India and China to continue to over produce CO2 while countries in Africa who don't burn anything worth concern could profit from selling their own underages and the world would still be the same. Actually China is attempting to do more to solve the problem than the US is. Pick up the new issue of Newsweek. Much of it is devoted to environmental and energy issues. A very good read. You can also see it online: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4264305/site/newsweek/ |
#17
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Thanks Pete. I'll check that out.
-- Roger W. Norman SirMusic Studio "Pete Dimsman" wrote in message ... Roger W. Norman wrote: It also doesn't do anything towards lessening global warming because countries that are signatories of the accord could sell off their overages to countries that had deficiences, thus allow countries like India and China to continue to over produce CO2 while countries in Africa who don't burn anything worth concern could profit from selling their own underages and the world would still be the same. Actually China is attempting to do more to solve the problem than the US is. Pick up the new issue of Newsweek. Much of it is devoted to environmental and energy issues. A very good read. You can also see it online: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4264305/site/newsweek/ |
#18
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Hard to say since we're talking about a population into the billions alone.
China and India have some major problems on being mechanized nations with their populations because it's almost impossible to provide inexpensive and pollution free electrical generation. Which is why the Three Gorges dam is so important to China even though thousands of years of history are no under water. They made a choice, and it's a non-polluting method of generating gigawatts of power, so I can't blame them. Their population puts the onus on them to make big decisions. -- Roger W. Norman SirMusic Studio "Blind Joni" wrote in message ... Actually China is attempting to do more to solve the problem than the US is. I would think this would be the case as they are starting form a much "dirtier" place so any attempt will yield a bigger result percentage wise. John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
#19
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Hard to say since we're talking about a population into the billions alone.
China and India have some major problems on being mechanized nations with their populations because it's almost impossible to provide inexpensive and pollution free electrical generation. Which is why the Three Gorges dam is so important to China even though thousands of years of history are no under water. They made a choice, and it's a non-polluting method of generating gigawatts of power, so I can't blame them. Their population puts the onus on them to make big decisions. -- Roger W. Norman SirMusic Studio "Blind Joni" wrote in message ... Actually China is attempting to do more to solve the problem than the US is. I would think this would be the case as they are starting form a much "dirtier" place so any attempt will yield a bigger result percentage wise. John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
#20
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I did a county harvest festival and the Parks and rec guys were all
driving these electric egg shaped buggies(as opposed to the golf carts of past years) The director told me that they were DONATED(beacuse at 7000$ each none were selling) but the car company(I think it was GM) was trying to get enough of them in circulation to raise their coporate fuel mileage average Same here in Albany...all the city stuff is those little electric eggs. |
#21
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I did a county harvest festival and the Parks and rec guys were all
driving these electric egg shaped buggies(as opposed to the golf carts of past years) The director told me that they were DONATED(beacuse at 7000$ each none were selling) but the car company(I think it was GM) was trying to get enough of them in circulation to raise their coporate fuel mileage average Same here in Albany...all the city stuff is those little electric eggs. |
#22
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Do a little research into what happened to GM's EV-1 all electric car.
Actually one of my best friends was an engineer on that project..he was actually the guy driving around the country doing the demos. John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
#23
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Do a little research into what happened to GM's EV-1 all electric car.
Actually one of my best friends was an engineer on that project..he was actually the guy driving around the country doing the demos. John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
#24
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Your understanding is indeed very limited in that case. The US uses
by far more energy than it produces, and more resources, which in a way is the same thing. I meant that the US uses say ..25% of the energy and produces 25% of the Worlds GNP. John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
#25
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Your understanding is indeed very limited in that case. The US uses
by far more energy than it produces, and more resources, which in a way is the same thing. I meant that the US uses say ..25% of the energy and produces 25% of the Worlds GNP. John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
#26
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Blind Joni wrote: Do a little research into what happened to GM's EV-1 all electric car. Actually one of my best friends was an engineer on that project..he was actually the guy driving around the country doing the demos. Ask him what happened to electric cars. |
#27
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Blind Joni wrote: Do a little research into what happened to GM's EV-1 all electric car. Actually one of my best friends was an engineer on that project..he was actually the guy driving around the country doing the demos. Ask him what happened to electric cars. |
#28
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#29
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#30
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The problem is that the US 7% of the population consumes far, far more
than it's share of the worlds resources. And most of the those resources belonged to other countries... it's a stacked deck, which is why so much of the world resents America. I understand this but aren't we BUYING those resources..we're not stealing them. John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
#31
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The problem is that the US 7% of the population consumes far, far more
than it's share of the worlds resources. And most of the those resources belonged to other countries... it's a stacked deck, which is why so much of the world resents America. I understand this but aren't we BUYING those resources..we're not stealing them. John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
#32
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Blind Joni wrote: The problem is that the US 7% of the population consumes far, far more than it's share of the worlds resources. And most of the those resources belonged to other countries... it's a stacked deck, which is why so much of the world resents America. I understand this but aren't we BUYING those resources..we're not stealing them. You CAN'T put a dollar value on everything. There is a finite amount of fossil fuel available, and we took a good portion of that while it was still cheap. Because we have (or had) the money to pay for them, doesn't change the fact that we have and continue to use an imporportionate amount of those resources. Maybe "stealing" isn't the right word, you can call it "taking". And, in direct corralation to your premise, it still remains fact that the conservation efforts starting now could, and should have been started many decades ago. They weren't. Because, as you point out, we had the "money" to abuse the situation, and it was in "big oils" best interest to WASTE those resources. Just because we had the money, that doesn't mean it was right. Or smart. Very SHORT TERM thinking. And the present administration is continuing in that tradition. I do honestly think the situation would be a little less critical right now had Gore (been appointed) president instead of Bush. Of course we will never know. |
#33
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Blind Joni wrote: The problem is that the US 7% of the population consumes far, far more than it's share of the worlds resources. And most of the those resources belonged to other countries... it's a stacked deck, which is why so much of the world resents America. I understand this but aren't we BUYING those resources..we're not stealing them. You CAN'T put a dollar value on everything. There is a finite amount of fossil fuel available, and we took a good portion of that while it was still cheap. Because we have (or had) the money to pay for them, doesn't change the fact that we have and continue to use an imporportionate amount of those resources. Maybe "stealing" isn't the right word, you can call it "taking". And, in direct corralation to your premise, it still remains fact that the conservation efforts starting now could, and should have been started many decades ago. They weren't. Because, as you point out, we had the "money" to abuse the situation, and it was in "big oils" best interest to WASTE those resources. Just because we had the money, that doesn't mean it was right. Or smart. Very SHORT TERM thinking. And the present administration is continuing in that tradition. I do honestly think the situation would be a little less critical right now had Gore (been appointed) president instead of Bush. Of course we will never know. |
#34
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"Pete Dimsman" wrote in message ... Blind Joni wrote: The problem is that the US 7% of the population consumes far, far more than it's share of the worlds resources. And most of the those resources belonged to other countries... it's a stacked deck, which is why so much of the world resents America. I understand this but aren't we BUYING those resources..we're not stealing them. You CAN'T put a dollar value on everything. There is a finite amount of fossil fuel available, and we took a good portion of that while it was still cheap. Because we have (or had) the money to pay for them, doesn't change the fact that we have and continue to use an imporportionate amount of those resources. Maybe "stealing" isn't the right word, you can call it "taking". So what you're saying is that the US is offering the best price for scarce resources, and is paying the same price as anyone else for non-scarce goods? The countries that sell us resources don't have to, do they? Glenn D. |
#35
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"Pete Dimsman" wrote in message ... Blind Joni wrote: The problem is that the US 7% of the population consumes far, far more than it's share of the worlds resources. And most of the those resources belonged to other countries... it's a stacked deck, which is why so much of the world resents America. I understand this but aren't we BUYING those resources..we're not stealing them. You CAN'T put a dollar value on everything. There is a finite amount of fossil fuel available, and we took a good portion of that while it was still cheap. Because we have (or had) the money to pay for them, doesn't change the fact that we have and continue to use an imporportionate amount of those resources. Maybe "stealing" isn't the right word, you can call it "taking". So what you're saying is that the US is offering the best price for scarce resources, and is paying the same price as anyone else for non-scarce goods? The countries that sell us resources don't have to, do they? Glenn D. |
#36
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Glenn Dowdy wrote: So what you're saying is that the US is offering the best price for scarce resources, and is paying the same price as anyone else for non-scarce goods? The countries that sell us resources don't have to, do they? I'm not sure that is what I am saying, but you still missed my point. We could have and can still choose to conserve resources instead of exploiting them. It is about doing the right thing, not what is in the best interest of huge corporations. b.t.w. Exxon still hasn't paid everything they owe for the Valdez disaster. Still litigating. In the meantime, still one of the most profitable entities on the planet. |
#37
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Glenn Dowdy wrote: So what you're saying is that the US is offering the best price for scarce resources, and is paying the same price as anyone else for non-scarce goods? The countries that sell us resources don't have to, do they? I'm not sure that is what I am saying, but you still missed my point. We could have and can still choose to conserve resources instead of exploiting them. It is about doing the right thing, not what is in the best interest of huge corporations. b.t.w. Exxon still hasn't paid everything they owe for the Valdez disaster. Still litigating. In the meantime, still one of the most profitable entities on the planet. |
#38
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Blind Joni wrote:
The problem is that the US 7% of the population consumes far, far more than it's share of the worlds resources. And most of the those resources belonged to other countries... it's a stacked deck, which is why so much of the world resents America. I understand this but aren't we BUYING those resources..we're not stealing them. Usually, yes. But recently, they've decided it's easier to just make up lies about WMDs so they can just invade oil rich countries & take the oil. |
#39
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Blind Joni wrote:
The problem is that the US 7% of the population consumes far, far more than it's share of the worlds resources. And most of the those resources belonged to other countries... it's a stacked deck, which is why so much of the world resents America. I understand this but aren't we BUYING those resources..we're not stealing them. Usually, yes. But recently, they've decided it's easier to just make up lies about WMDs so they can just invade oil rich countries & take the oil. |
#40
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So what you're saying is that the US is offering the best price for scarce resources, and is paying the same price as anyone else for non-scarce goods? The countries that sell us resources don't have to, do they? Glenn D. when they don't we will liberate them George |
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