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#1
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Good simple delay for track alignment
Hey,
Using Cubase 6 64bit here w/built in plugins and then some freeware and otherwise accumulated older ones through JBridge. Any suggestions for a simple, accurate VST delay plug (maybe down to sample level?) for track phase alignment use? I have been doing it manually/visually for a long time, but now that I record demos with a fixed set for a long long time, I'd like to assign a fixed delay for each track to align it proper, and then I can just dump the recorded files to tracks in Cubase and they're all set both mix and alignment wise and I get raw-mixed demo in seconds from the session. (an 8-track Zoom recorder in use, so I mix in 24bit 44.1). The Cubase's own delay with zero FB and 100% seems to work quite OK and works with .1ms accuracy, which is fine for them demos anyway, but I wonder if there's a handy plugin that'd be even more accurate and maybe programmed just for the said use? Or any other suggestions/caveats to the method from u pro guys here? Cheers, Dee |
#2
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Good simple delay for track alignment
"DeeAa":
Using Cubase 6 64bit here w/built in plugins and then some freeware and otherwise accumulated older ones through JBridge. Any suggestions for a simple, accurate VST delay plug (maybe down to sample level?) for track phase alignment use? I have been doing it manually/visually for a long time, but now that I record demos with a fixed set for a long long time, I'd like to assign a fixed delay for each track to align it proper, and then I can just dump the recorded files to tracks in Cubase and they're all set both mix and alignment wise and I get raw-mixed demo in seconds from the session. (an 8-track Zoom recorder in use, so I mix in 24bit 44.1). The Cubase's own delay with zero FB and 100% seems to work quite OK and works with .1ms accuracy, which is fine for them demos anyway, but I wonder if there's a handy plugin that'd be even more accurate and maybe programmed just for the said use? Have you tried http://www.voxengo.com/product/latencydelay/ already? It might do, what you´re looking for. Hope that helps, Phil |
#3
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Good simple delay for track alignment
On Dec 13, 10:38*am, "Phil W" wrote:
I wonder if there's a handy plugin that'd be even more accurate and maybe programmed just for the said use? Have you triedhttp://www.voxengo.com/product/latencydelay/ already? It might do, what you´re looking for. Hope that helps, THANKS a million! That's perfect! I had completely forgotten those Voxengo plugs, I've used some of them before. I'll definitely get all those free ones at least right away. Cheers, Dee |
#4
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Good simple delay for track alignment
DeeAa wrote:
The Cubase's own delay with zero FB and 100% seems to work quite OK and works with .1ms accuracy, which is fine for them demos anyway, but I wonder if there's a handy plugin that'd be even more accurate and maybe programmed just for the said use? That's about an inch of positioning. That's about as accurate as you will ever be. Or any other suggestions/caveats to the method from u pro guys here? My suggestion is that when you start having to do careful alignment, sit back and think about what is going on and why there is so much leakage and whether you might want to consider miking things differently. You can align two microphones at different points in space with one another, but you cannot align three..... --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#5
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Good simple delay for track alignment
Scott Dorsey wrote:
wrote: The Cubase's own delay with zero FB and 100% seems to work quite OK and works with .1ms accuracy, which is fine for them demos anyway, but I wonder if there's a handy plugin that'd be even more accurate and maybe programmed just for the said use? That's about an inch of positioning. That's about as accurate as you will ever be. Or any other suggestions/caveats to the method from u pro guys here? My suggestion is that when you start having to do careful alignment, sit back and think about what is going on and why there is so much leakage and whether you might want to consider miking things differently. You can align two microphones at different points in space with one another, but you cannot align three..... --scott You can't analytically, but there is an approach that I think minimizes things. All this is my opinion and practice, not something "standard" (SFAIK). This comes up when I record live multitrack. You pick something to be the "center" ( usually the snare drum ), find a snare hit from when the drummer is warming up and align everything else to that. Overheads are a "stereo track" and are moved in lock-step ( even if they're seperate ..wav files ). Snare and kik are close miced, overheads aren't. But snare needs to be the most focused thing. Generally, the kik has been EQ'd to where the snare isn't at issue. Works fine, and can probably be shown to be as good as it gets. the main thing it does for me is to reduce the amount of bandwidth necessary to make the snare audible. Guitars, bass, keys all live on either much more distant close mics or are DI. "Much more distant" means they're way away from the 3:1 rule distance. You'll still get them in the overheads, and there will be some combing, but it's not as significant. -- Les Cargill |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Good simple delay for track alignment
*You can
align two microphones at different points in space with one another, but you cannot align three..... --scott now that's interesting.... why not? if you have one sound source and 3 mics, (or even N mics) you should be able to align all of them to one sound source.. if you have two or more sound sources then you can't align 3 mics but neither can you align 2 mics (which is also interesting) so I don't see any difference between 2 or 3 or N mics. you can always align them to 1 sound source and you cannot align them to 2 or more sound sources? Mark |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Good simple delay for track alignment
On Dec 13, 6:16*pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
My suggestion is that when you start having to do careful alignment, sit back and think about what is going on and why there is so much leakage and whether you might want to consider miking things differently. *You can align two microphones at different points in space with one another, but you cannot align three..... Not perfectly I suppose, but it sure helps. See, I'm doing 8-tracks and some of the tracks are D/I so they have zero delay. Some of the tracks like the overheads are like 4 feet over the highest cymbals because I need a balanced drum sound due to so few tracks - can't have just the cymbal crashes like I'd get with miking too close - and some are close miked like the snare. Only 4 drum mics, see. Since the recording is live, for instance the guitar that is D/I also bleeds quite heavily to the said drum overheads, and it plays real havoc with the sounds...delaying especially the D/I stuff ~3-4ms makes wonders for the sounds, the instruments don't sound like there's a chorus on all the time :-) If this were studio I'd of course somehow separate the two, or have the guitar lower, but it's not and the 100W guitar tube amp roars right next to the drums, bloody loud, like we want it live. The idea is not to make perfect recordings, but to capture live band rehearsals as nicely as possible, so that the mics etc. remain there always in the same place - each rehearsal I just hit record and then import to Cubase and export to MP3 and it gives a very decent demo recording. I'll post an example recording some of these days. Cheers, Dee |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Good simple delay for track alignment
On Dec 14, 7:30*am, DeeAa wrote:
On Dec 13, 6:16*pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote: My suggestion is that when you start having to do careful alignment, sit back and think about what is going on and why there is so much leakage and whether you might want to consider miking things differently. *You can align two microphones at different points in space with one another, but you cannot align three..... Not perfectly I suppose, but it sure helps. See, I'm doing 8-tracks and some of the tracks are D/I so they have zero delay. Some of the tracks like the overheads are like 4 feet over the highest cymbals because I need a balanced drum sound due to so few tracks - can't have just the cymbal crashes like I'd get with miking too close - and some are close miked like the snare. Only 4 drum mics, see. Since the recording is live, for instance the guitar that is D/I also bleeds quite heavily to the said drum overheads, and it plays real havoc with the sounds...delaying especially the D/I stuff ~3-4ms makes wonders for the sounds, the instruments don't sound like there's a chorus on all the time :-) If this were studio I'd of course somehow separate the two, or have the guitar lower, but it's not and the 100W guitar tube amp roars right next to the drums, bloody loud, like we want it live. The idea is not to make perfect recordings, but to capture live band rehearsals as nicely as possible, so that the mics etc. remain there always in the same place - each rehearsal I just hit record and then import to Cubase and export to MP3 and it gives a very decent demo recording. I'll post an example recording some of these days. Cheers, Dee Here's a very short clip of very drunken song intro with latencies corrected to sample accuracy...makes it way clearer. I may have too much of room verb there, but it serves well to mask the overall ugly verb mush coming from the mostly concrete-wall small room we play in. I think it works really well for training demo purposes, and what more, it needs no mixing - this is what you get now dumping the zoom material onto a ready-made mix template, so I can export the training in minutes after recording and it sounds quite fine. If I want to mix it further that is easy enough as well. Amazing this technology, even a hobbyist like me can make quite acceptable demos that are a far cry better from what we did in the 80's and 90's with some multitrackers or even in many a studio. Short clip: http://deeaa.pp.fi/spookbox/LATENCYTEST.mp3 Cheers, Dee |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Good simple delay for track alignment
Les Cargill wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote: My suggestion is that when you start having to do careful alignment, sit back and think about what is going on and why there is so much leakage and whether you might want to consider miking things differently. You can align two microphones at different points in space with one another, but you cannot align three..... You can't analytically, but there is an approach that I think minimizes things. All this is my opinion and practice, not something "standard" (SFAIK). This comes up when I record live multitrack. You pick something to be the "center" ( usually the snare drum ), find a snare hit from when the drummer is warming up and align everything else to that. Overheads are a "stereo track" and are moved in lock-step ( even if they're seperate .wav files ). Yup. Same way you build a mix, you start with whatever is most important and build the thing around it. Works fine, and can probably be shown to be as good as it gets. the main thing it does for me is to reduce the amount of bandwidth necessary to make the snare audible. Guitars, bass, keys all live on either much more distant close mics or are DI. "Much more distant" means they're way away from the 3:1 rule distance. You'll still get them in the overheads, and there will be some combing, but it's not as significant. And you can turn that to your advantage too. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Good simple delay for track alignment
Mark wrote:
=A0You can align two microphones at different points in space with one another, but = you cannot align three..... now that's interesting.... why not? if you have one sound source and 3 mics, (or even N mics) you should be able to align all of them to one sound source.. Imagine three microphones in 3-space. You pick a "master" mike to be your center. The third mike is 20 mS behind, so you advance it 20 mS. The third mike is 20 mS ahead of the master mike, but it may only 20mS away from the second mike as well. So you can make it match the master mike, but doing that causes it not to match the second. if you have two or more sound sources then you can't align 3 mics but neither can you align 2 mics (which is also interesting) You can if they are all on a flat plane, but not in three-space. so I don't see any difference between 2 or 3 or N mics. you can always align them to 1 sound source and you cannot align them to 2 or more sound sources? I wish I could draw a picture, it would be a whole lot more clear. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Good simple delay for track alignment
DeeAa wrote:
Hey, Using Cubase 6 64bit here w/built in plugins and then some freeware and otherwise accumulated older ones through JBridge. Any suggestions for a simple, accurate VST delay plug (maybe down to sample level?) for track phase alignment use? I have been doing it manually/visually for a long time, but now that I record demos with a fixed set for a long long time, I'd like to assign a fixed delay for each track to align it proper, and then I can just dump the recorded files to tracks in Cubase and they're all set both mix and alignment wise and I get raw-mixed demo in seconds from the session. (an 8-track Zoom recorder in use, so I mix in 24bit 44.1). The Cubase's own delay with zero FB and 100% seems to work quite OK and works with .1ms accuracy, which is fine for them demos anyway, but I wonder if there's a handy plugin that'd be even more accurate and maybe programmed just for the said use? Or any other suggestions/caveats to the method from u pro guys here? Doesn't Cubase calculate all that and apply it automatically ? Sheesh ! Or are you aligning for mic distances ? Can't you just click-and-slide tracks manually to near sample resolution ? If not, try a different DAW ! geoff |
#12
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Good simple delay for track alignment
On Dec 14, 10:37*am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
Mark wrote: =A0You can align two microphones at different points in space with one another, but = you cannot align three..... now that's interesting.... why not? if you have one sound source and 3 mics, (or even N mics) you should be able to align all of them to one sound source.. Imagine three microphones in 3-space. *You pick a "master" mike to be your center. *The third mike is 20 mS behind, so you advance it 20 mS. *The third mike is 20 mS ahead of the master mike, but it may only 20mS away from the second mike as well. *So you can make it match the master mike, but doing that causes it not to match the second. if you have two or more sound sources then you can't align 3 mics but neither can you align 2 mics (which is also interesting) You can if they are all on a flat plane, but not in three-space. so I don't see any difference between 2 or 3 or N mics. *you can always align them to 1 sound source and you cannot align them to 2 or more sound sources? I wish I could draw a picture, it would be a whole lot more clear. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." If there is only one sound source and the source doesn't move, then I don't see what difference it makes if the 3 mics are in a line or in a plane or whatever. There is a scaler value of time delay from the source to each mic and if additional delay is added so that the total for each is the same then they are aligned for that source at that location. What am I missing? Note, I don't think any of this really matters that much in practice but it is an interesting academic discussion. Mark |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Good simple delay for track alignment
On Dec 14, 9:57*pm, "geoff" wrote:
Doesn't Cubase calculate all that and apply it automatically ? *Sheesh ! Or are you aligning for mic distances ? *Can't you just click-and-slide tracks manually to near sample resolution ? If not, try a different DAW ! Mic distances, yes. Otherwise the tracks are of course aligned upon importing. And I have been doing it manually, but it is much easier with a delay, since the mics stay put. This way I only need to import new tracks to a project each time and it's all aligned and ready just like that. Plus the results are consistent and you can tweak the latencies to get the best sound every time instead of just winging it manually every time. Kind of like delay is used in fixed PA system, this is. |
#14
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Good simple delay for track alignment
Mark writes:
On Dec 14, 10:37=A0am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote: Mark wrote: =3DA0You can align two microphones at different points in space with one another, b= ut =3D you cannot align three..... -snips- Note, I don't think any of this really matters that much in practice but it is an interesting academic discussion. If you use spots with a main pair and want a good sounding recording, it matters a _great deal_. It's true that as multiple sound sources spread out on a stage, alignment gets more difficult (and mathematically impossible for all sources at the same time). The problem is worse still if the spots are not close to being points on a line between source and main pair (which might be elevated). There are ways to mitigate this: 1. Don't use spots. (For my venues, clientele, and rep, I could never get away with this, however.) 2. Careful how you use the spots. The "less equal" the energy used from the spots to the main pair, the less you'll manifest problems. (Note that I said "energy" and not metered level or fader setting. We're talking about the "energy" of a given instrument or voice we're trying not to damage.) If the energies are nearly equal between the two (or N) microphones, you'll have the greatest potential for problems (comb filtering, phasing). So, if you can, avoid a blend of exactly equal energies. 3. Use delay values that while not perhaps arithmetically exact (because often they can't be), they'll push you out of the worst of harm's way. Keeping in the mind the Haas threshold for the ear to detect echos, you can get close to 40 mSec, which is typically way more than you'll need for a *net* correction of alignments. (Much more than that and you're probably aligning to microphones that live in the far-field soup anyway, and that soup perhaps has lots of room reverb that's uncorrelated and helps mask timing issues.) When I use delays these days, they're "roughed in" by my best guess based on distances, at roughly 1 mS/foot. (And you must think in 3 dimensions -- it's all too easy to "bird's eye" think in just 2, but that will bite you every time unless microphones and sources are exactly on the same plain -- and that's unlikely.) Next I temporarily set the energies to be as equal as possible so as to hear worst-case mis-alignments. Then I listen while single-sample-stepping the delay value. Sometimes the time window for a "sweet spot" is only a few samples wide. I do this one spot at a time against the main pair, then cross check; but cross-leakage with the spots shouldn't be a huge problem unless you've got microphones with poor pattern control or they were not well-placed originally. Now everything should mix pretty well. For grins, disable the delays, and listen as focus and overall tone likely goes to hell. Good luck with it. Frank Mobile Audio -- |
#15
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Good simple delay for track alignment
Mark wrote:
If there is only one sound source and the source doesn't move, then I don't see what difference it makes if the 3 mics are in a line or in a plane or whatever. Mark I have to agree with Mark on this one. For a single sound souce arriving at any number of mics (mic1, mic2, 3..etc.) located anywhere in 3D space. - it's always mathematically possible to time align the signal of the secondaries (mic2, 3 ...) to that of elected master, mic1. I think the flaw in Scott's reasoning is his "The third mike is 20 mS ahead of the master mike, but it may only 20mS away from the second mike as wel.". Please correct me if I misinterpret, but it seems from that second phrase that he's thinking in terms of the travel distance, and thus time, between mic2 and mic3? But that is of no relevance - the sound is not being relayed via mic2 to mic3 or vice versa. The only tiimes that matter are source - mic1, source - mic2, source - mic3 etc., not mic2 - mic3. All academic of course, as the above is merely compensation for a single sound source, not, say, a full orchestra. And only mathematically at that, with no consideration for all the psychoacoustic factors. Frank Stearns makes a lot of good ponts there. -- Tom McCreadie Live at The London Palindrome - ABBA |
#16
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Good simple delay for track alignment
"geoff":
Doesn't Cubase calculate all that and apply it automatically? Sheesh ! Cubase does have "latency delay compensation" for plug-ins. Can't you just click-and-slide tracks manually to near sample resolution? If not, try a different DAW ! Cubase also offers this function, just like any other serious DAW. |
#17
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Good simple delay for track alignment
Mark wrote:
There is a scaler value of time delay from the source to each mic and if additional delay is added so that the total for each is the same then they are aligned for that source at that location. What am I missing? You got three mikes, A, B, and C. The time AB is the time delay between one pair. The time AC is the time delay between another pair. But... what is the time difference BC? It's not necessarily AB-AC. Note, I don't think any of this really matters that much in practice but it is an interesting academic discussion. I think it can help explain some of the diminishing returns when you start trying to line everything up on the mark perfectly. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#18
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Good simple delay for track alignment
What am I missing? You got three mikes, A, B, and C. The time AB is the time delay between one pair. The time AC is the time delay between another pair. But... what is the time difference BC? *It's not necessarily AB-AC. See Tom's post... the delay between the mics doesn't matter it is the delay from the source to each mic that matters. Mark |
#19
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Good simple delay for track alignment
"Mark" wrote in message ... "Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... What am I missing? You got three mikes, A, B, and C. The time AB is the time delay between one pair. The time AC is the time delay between another pair. But... what is the time difference BC? It's not necessarily AB-AC. }See Tom's post... }the delay between the mics doesn't matter }it is the delay from the source to each mic that matters. I wonder what signal he would use to line the two mics up with each other and not the sound source even if it did matter? I guess that's why he says it can't be done properly :-) Trevor. |
#20
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Good simple delay for track alignment
Mark wrote:
the delay between the mics doesn't matter it is the delay from the source to each mic that matters. But it does, because in the real world you have an individual source at each mike. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#21
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Good simple delay for track alignment
Mark wrote in
: If there is only one sound source and the source doesn't move, then I don't see what difference it makes if the 3 mics are in a line or in a plane or whatever. What no one has explicitly said is that there is never a single point source. You either have several instruments scattered across a stage or a large group (orchestra, chorus). |
#22
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Good simple delay for track alignment
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#23
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Good simple delay for track alignment
On Fri, 16 Dec 2011 14:29:42 GMT, Carey Carlan wrote:
Mark wrote in : If there is only one sound source and the source doesn't move, then I don't see what difference it makes if the 3 mics are in a line or in a plane or whatever. What no one has explicitly said is that there is never a single point source. You either have several instruments scattered across a stage or a large group (orchestra, chorus). Well I did explicitly say: "All academic of course, as the above is merely compensation for a single sound source, not, say, a full orchestra. And only mathematically at that, with no consideration for all the psychoacoustic factors". -- Tom McCreadie What's brown and looks good on a banker?..a Rottweiler |
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