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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default HD Vinyl - WTF?

John Williamson wrote:

Their main claims seem to be "louder than normal vinyl" and/or longer
playing time with more uniform sound quality over the run.


"Louder than normal vinyl" is mostly a non-issue. I can already cut discs
louder than anyone can play back.

The problem is that the system is rate-limited; the stylus can only move
back and forth so fast. So the amount of excursion you can get on a low
note is MUCH wider than the amount you can get on a high note. Sure, you
can cut at half speed in order to get wider excursions at higher frequencies,
but you get discs that nobody can play back because their playback stylus
can't follow the groove accurately.

Also, looking at the stylus and groove profiles they favour, the stylus
will not be able to get past the dirt in the groove without reproducing
it along with the required signal. It'll be the same problem as the
laser pickups have.


I don't see this being particularly worse than normal playback.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Default HD Vinyl - WTF?

Scott Dorsey wrote: " I can already cut discs louder than anyone
can play back. "

Not that there'd be any point to it, or
with doing the same to CD.

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wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote: " I can already cut discs louder than anyone
can play back. "

Not that there'd be any point to it, or
with doing the same to CD.


Sure there is. Cutting with wider excursion doesn't necessarily give you
any added distortion. The thing about the LP is that, unlike with the CD,
there is no actual reference level and although there are hard limits on
excursion due to the design of the cutter, there are many other limits that
prevent you from coming near them most of the time.

In most cases it's the playback system that limits things; there is no reason
to cut a disc that can't be played back without skipping. But I would be
willing to cut a lot hotter transients on a disc intended for the audiophile
market than for one intended for playback on jukeboxes.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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geoff geoff is offline
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Default HD Vinyl - WTF?

On 17/04/2018 11:11 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote: " I can already cut discs louder than anyone
can play back. "

Not that there'd be any point to it, or
with doing the same to CD.


Sure there is. Cutting with wider excursion doesn't necessarily give you
any added distortion. The thing about the LP is that, unlike with the CD,
there is no actual reference level and although there are hard limits on
excursion due to the design of the cutter, there are many other limits that
prevent you from coming near them most of the time.

In most cases it's the playback system that limits things; there is no reason
to cut a disc that can't be played back without skipping. But I would be
willing to cut a lot hotter transients on a disc intended for the audiophile
market than for one intended for playback on jukeboxes.
--scott



Like digital works from the top down, and analogue from the bottom up.

Scott is saying that he can get 'higher up' cutting vinyl (presumably
versus the averagely good)...

Nothing to do with flat tops or average envelope levels sorry thek.

geoff


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Default HD Vinyl - WTF?

geoff, Scott:

But loudness is perceived by average
levels, not peak levels.
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geoff wrote: "Scott is saying that he can get 'higher up' cutting vinyl
(presumably versus the averagely good)...

Nothing to do with flat tops or average envelope levels sorry thek.

geoff"

Still, I'd rather have a soft recording with
tons of dynamics that sounds great on
a 100+WPChannel amp that one that
was produced 'hot' to 'help out a wimpy
10WPChannel off-brand party favor
bought in a market stall or at Target.
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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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geoff wrote:
On 17/04/2018 11:11 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote: " I can already cut discs louder than anyone
can play back. "

Not that there'd be any point to it, or
with doing the same to CD.


Sure there is. Cutting with wider excursion doesn't necessarily give you
any added distortion. The thing about the LP is that, unlike with the CD,
there is no actual reference level and although there are hard limits on
excursion due to the design of the cutter, there are many other limits that
prevent you from coming near them most of the time.

In most cases it's the playback system that limits things; there is no reason
to cut a disc that can't be played back without skipping. But I would be
willing to cut a lot hotter transients on a disc intended for the audiophile
market than for one intended for playback on jukeboxes.


Like digital works from the top down, and analogue from the bottom up.

Scott is saying that he can get 'higher up' cutting vinyl (presumably
versus the averagely good)...


Kind of.

You can think of the LP as being slew-limited. It's not like regular analogue
media. You have more headroom at low frequencies than at high ones because
the limitation isn't -total excursion- but how fast you can move the stylus.

Nothing to do with flat tops or average envelope levels sorry thek.


The cool thing with the LP is that you can have peaks that far exceed the
average level as long as you time them right so that the peaks on adjacent
grooves don't hit one another. So aggressive limiting doesn't actually make
anything any louder (although a little light limiting can make discs easier
to track).
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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In article ,
wrote:
geoff, Scott:

But loudness is perceived by average
levels, not peak levels.


Yes, but limiting peak levels down doesn't let you increase your average
levels with the LP. Because it's not total excursion that limits your
cutting levels.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Scott Dorsey wrote: "...it's not total excursion that limits your
cutting levels. "

Ok, you lost me with the above!


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Thekma wrote in message
...

Scott Dorsey wrote: "...it's not total excursion that limits your
cutting levels. "

Ok, you lost me with the above!


Uuuh ... you've been lost since you first showed up here, li'l buddy. WFKJS.
DFR.

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Mike Rivers[_2_] Mike Rivers[_2_] is offline
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On 4/17/2018 9:39 AM, wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote: "...it's not total excursion that limits your
cutting levels. "

Ok, you lost me with the above!


It's not the total amount of swing side to side that determines the
output level of the pickup, it's velocity. This is a fundamental
principle of electromagnetism - something has to move to cut across
magnetic lines of force in order to generate current, and the faster it
moves, the more current it generates. Think about the alternator in your
car - it doesn't generate any current when the engine is stopped, and as
the engine drives it faster, it generates more current (which then has
to be regulated to keep the lights and battery from blowing up).

Let's say that we have a special cutter that can swing the stylus half
an inch to either side of the center, and we want to get maximum level
from it. The stylus has to move a total of one inch between the positive
and negative peaks of the groove you're cutting. Since it needs to move
the width of the groove and back in order to cut a full cycle of
whatever frequency you're cutting, if you were cutting a 50 Hz bass
note, it would have to move two inches, fifty times in once second, or
100 inches per second (that's _velocity_). That's pretty hard to do, so
think of what kind of velocity you'd need to cut a groove that wide at
20 kHz!

Thinking back the other way, if you know the maximum velocity that the
stylus can achieve, you can figure out what's the widest groove you can
cut at the highest frequency you want to record. Try to move it any
further at that frequency and you'll get distortion, and, if you try
hard enough, smoke. On playback, the stylus will fly out of the groove
because it can't slow down fast enough to turn around at the peak of the
cycle.

You could, however, cut a wider groove at low frequencies. And to make
things more difficult, there's the RIAA equalization curve that boosts
the highs and cuts the lows when cutting, and does the opposite on
playback. That serves to keep the groove width relatively constant for a
constant level, and, as well, whacks off some high end on playback,
which makes record scratch less audible.

When you're using a laser rather than an electrical transducer, you're
not bound by the inertia and mass of the stylus and what moves it (or
what it moves). So you could cut a crazy groove with a laser and play it
back with a laser (every hear of a CD?), but a conventional phono pickup
still has the velocity and excursion limitations that only let it go so
far.


--

For a good time, call
http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com
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Mike Rivers wrote: ". So you could cut a crazy groove with a laser and play
it back with a laser (every hear of a CD?),"

Uhhh, CDs don't have grooves, they have
pits and lands. No need to worry about
'throwing' a laser read-head with those!

Thanks for the clarification on excursions
though. So it is not the total width of
excursion, it's the velocity(change in
direction) within said excursion.
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And to make
things more difficult, there's the RIAA equalization curve that boosts
the highs and cuts the lows when cutting, and does the opposite on
playback.


and that has the effect of making the system approximately displacement based rather than velocity based.
mark



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wrote:
And to make
things more difficult, there's the RIAA equalization curve that boosts
the highs and cuts the lows when cutting, and does the opposite on
playback.


and that has the effect of making the system approximately displacement based rather than velocity based.


Right, until you get to the top end and then rate limiting hits you again.
You can draw a profile curve of frequency vs amplitude and see how you are
hit by displacement limitations in one direction, rate in another direction,
and (with all but the fanciest Neumann cutters) heating in a third. Sort of
a safe operating area curve for audio.

And it wouldn't be SO bad except that the shape of the curve is different
on the inner and outer grooves!
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Mat Nieuwenhoven Mat Nieuwenhoven is offline
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On 17 Apr 2018 14:53:23 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote:

wrote:
And to make
things more difficult, there's the RIAA equalization curve that boosts
the highs and cuts the lows when cutting, and does the opposite on
playback.


and that has the effect of making the system approximately displacement based rather than velocity based.


Right, until you get to the top end and then rate limiting hits you again.
You can draw a profile curve of frequency vs amplitude and see how you are
hit by displacement limitations in one direction, rate in another direction,
and (with all but the fanciest Neumann cutters) heating in a third. Sort of
a safe operating area curve for audio.


If a cutter would work at half the speed, wouldn't that fix these
problems? Never mind that no playback cartridge could play it...

Mat Nieuwenhoven


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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Mat Nieuwenhoven wrote:
On 17 Apr 2018 14:53:23 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote:
wrote:
And to make
things more difficult, there's the RIAA equalization curve that boosts
the highs and cuts the lows when cutting, and does the opposite on
playback.

and that has the effect of making the system approximately displacement based rather than velocity based.


Right, until you get to the top end and then rate limiting hits you again.
You can draw a profile curve of frequency vs amplitude and see how you are
hit by displacement limitations in one direction, rate in another direction,
and (with all but the fanciest Neumann cutters) heating in a third. Sort of
a safe operating area curve for audio.


If a cutter would work at half the speed, wouldn't that fix these
problems? Never mind that no playback cartridge could play it...


I said precisely that earlier in this thread.
I don't have the pulleys and the EQ module for half-speed mastering, but
they exist, and folks have used them.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


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Mat Nieuwenhoven Mat Nieuwenhoven is offline
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On 20 Apr 2018 08:43:53 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote:

Mat Nieuwenhoven wrote:
On 17 Apr 2018 14:53:23 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote:
wrote:
And to make
things more difficult, there's the RIAA equalization curve that boosts
the highs and cuts the lows when cutting, and does the opposite on
playback.

and that has the effect of making the system approximately displacement based rather than velocity based.

Right, until you get to the top end and then rate limiting hits you again.
You can draw a profile curve of frequency vs amplitude and see how you are
hit by displacement limitations in one direction, rate in another direction,
and (with all but the fanciest Neumann cutters) heating in a third. Sort of
a safe operating area curve for audio.


If a cutter would work at half the speed, wouldn't that fix these
problems? Never mind that no playback cartridge could play it...


I said precisely that earlier in this thread.
I don't have the pulleys and the EQ module for half-speed mastering, but
they exist, and folks have used them.


My bad, I missed it earlier.

Mat Nieuwenhoven.




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Trevor Trevor is offline
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Default HD Vinyl - WTF?

On 20/04/2018 10:43 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Mat Nieuwenhoven wrote:
On 17 Apr 2018 14:53:23 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote:
wrote:
And to make
things more difficult, there's the RIAA equalization curve that boosts
the highs and cuts the lows when cutting, and does the opposite on
playback.

and that has the effect of making the system approximately displacement based rather than velocity based.

Right, until you get to the top end and then rate limiting hits you again.
You can draw a profile curve of frequency vs amplitude and see how you are
hit by displacement limitations in one direction, rate in another direction,
and (with all but the fanciest Neumann cutters) heating in a third. Sort of
a safe operating area curve for audio.


If a cutter would work at half the speed, wouldn't that fix these
problems? Never mind that no playback cartridge could play it...


I said precisely that earlier in this thread.
I don't have the pulleys and the EQ module for half-speed mastering, but
they exist, and folks have used them.


Yep, half speed mastering and direct metal mastering were just a couple
of techniques used to try and get vinyl to approach something resembling
true HiFi back in the day. Cartridges like the Shure V15VMR did a good
job of tracking them if you could afford them, and the regular cost of a
replacement stylus. Then we got a distribution format with far more
dynamic range, much flatter frequency response, MUCH less distortion, no
wow or flutter, no rumble, no surface noise, no pinch effect.......
Naturally some preferred the inferior format, and still do of course :-)

Trevor.

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