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#1
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"Twisted pair" RCA Interconnects?
I'm upgrading my factory car stereo with a new headunit, speakers, and
amp/subwoofer. I'm trying to decide what RCA cables to use to go from the HU to the amp. The Streetwires Zero Noise twisted-pair style interconnects look interesting. Cany anybody tell me their experiences with this style of cable, does it seem to be adequately shielded and does it have satisfactory noise rejection? thanks, jp |
#2
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"Twisted pair" RCA Interconnects?
I'm upgrading my factory car stereo with a new headunit, speakers, and
amp/subwoofer. I'm trying to decide what RCA cables to use to go from the HU to the amp. The Streetwires Zero Noise twisted-pair style interconnects look interesting. Cany anybody tell me their experiences with this style of cable, does it seem to be adequately shielded and does it have satisfactory noise rejection? thanks, Most of the fancy RCA cables are eye candy. Twisted pair, better shielding, etc. are usually based on scientific priciples but are taken to the extreme. Kinda like damping factor and THD. I call it the Monster Cable effect. Buy RCAs that have adequate shielding, and the Radio Shack stuff is usually enough. I would never pay more than $15 for a pair, and thats if I am paying more to get a certain look to match the car or theme or whatever. In other words, though the cables you are looking at are good enough you will probably pay way to much for them. Les |
#3
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"Twisted pair" RCA Interconnects?
"Psych-O-Delic Voodoo Thunder Pig" wrote in message news:7r4Mb.20092$sv6.62600@attbi_s52... I'm upgrading my factory car stereo with a new headunit, speakers, and amp/subwoofer. I'm trying to decide what RCA cables to use to go from the HU to the amp. The Streetwires Zero Noise twisted-pair style interconnects look interesting. Cany anybody tell me their experiences with this style of cable, does it seem to be adequately shielded and does it have satisfactory noise rejection? Metal is metal. Noise is an issue with the source and amplifier, not the wires connecting them. |
#4
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"Twisted pair" RCA Interconnects?
I have made my own twisted pair cables for years. All it takes is good wire
of the proper size, an electric hand drill, RCA ends and a soldering iron. The really good thing about making your own is that you can vary the twist per foot ( how tight or how loose the twist ) and the twist direction of rotation. This can help to minimize crosstalk. You can also: 1. Choose your own colors of wire 2 Choose the type of wire jacket e.g. teflon, rubber, pvc, silicone 3. Choose the number of wire strands in the wire. For a given diameter of wire, you can use more strands of smaller dia copper wire to make your cables more flexible. 4. Choose your own end connectors ( I use Neutrik Pro-Fi ) check out www.neutrik.com Regards, John Andreen Psych-O-Delic Voodoo Thunder Pig wrote: I'm upgrading my factory car stereo with a new headunit, speakers, and amp/subwoofer. I'm trying to decide what RCA cables to use to go from the HU to the amp. The Streetwires Zero Noise twisted-pair style interconnects look interesting. Cany anybody tell me their experiences with this style of cable, does it seem to be adequately shielded and does it have satisfactory noise rejection? thanks, jp |
#5
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"Twisted pair" RCA Interconnects?
Stay as cheap as possible, wires don't mean jack, it's all a marketing
gimmick (read the other replies to your post).... just make sure they are tough enough for a car environment, this way they'll be better designed to handle the abuse. If you want a "Look", then by all means, spend away!!! I mean, cool looking cables look great covered by carpet. FHLH "Psych-O-Delic Voodoo Thunder Pig" wrote in message news:7r4Mb.20092$sv6.62600@attbi_s52... I'm upgrading my factory car stereo with a new headunit, speakers, and amp/subwoofer. I'm trying to decide what RCA cables to use to go from the HU to the amp. The Streetwires Zero Noise twisted-pair style interconnects look interesting. Cany anybody tell me their experiences with this style of cable, does it seem to be adequately shielded and does it have satisfactory noise rejection? thanks, jp |
#6
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"Twisted pair" RCA Interconnects?
I am the only one on this NG who would recommend higher end RCAs. In my
accord with my Hifonics VIII Europa I was picking up alternator whine through the RCA cables. At the time I was using radio shack generic RCAs, the shielded black ones with the gold plugs @ the ends. Drove me nuts... run the RCA within 1.5 feet of the amp and alt whine would enter. It was progressive too, the closer the RCA was located to the amp the louder the whine became. It made cable routing a pain. Upgraded to high end cables and the whine stopped completely. At the time I was an IASCA competitor, with the whine costing me about 10-12 Noise floor points. Garrett Psych-O-Delic Voodoo Thunder Pig wrote: I'm upgrading my factory car stereo with a new headunit, speakers, and amp/subwoofer. I'm trying to decide what RCA cables to use to go from the HU to the amp. The Streetwires Zero Noise twisted-pair style interconnects look interesting. Cany anybody tell me their experiences with this style of cable, does it seem to be adequately shielded and does it have satisfactory noise rejection? thanks, jp |
#7
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"Twisted pair" RCA Interconnects?
In article ,
sanitarium wrote: I am the only one on this NG who would recommend higher end RCAs. In my accord with my Hifonics VIII Europa I was picking up alternator whine through the RCA cables. At the time I was using radio shack generic RCAs, the shielded black ones with the gold plugs @ the ends. Drove me nuts... run the RCA within 1.5 feet of the amp and alt whine would enter. It was progressive too, the closer the RCA was located to the amp the louder the whine became. It made cable routing a pain. Upgraded to high end cables and the whine stopped completely. At the time I was an IASCA competitor, with the whine costing me about 10-12 Noise floor points. Garrett You can also twist the (+) and (-) power cables near the amp so their magnetic fields, which include the alternator whine, cancel after a short distance. It can reduce cable routing problems if you're unfortunate enough to have an amp with power inputs and audio inputs nearby. |
#8
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"Twisted pair" RCA Interconnects?
Maybe the RS cable was damaged. If the shield was broken it'd do that. Did
you try other RS rcas? Paul Vina "sanitarium" wrote in message ... I am the only one on this NG who would recommend higher end RCAs. In my accord with my Hifonics VIII Europa I was picking up alternator whine through the RCA cables. At the time I was using radio shack generic RCAs, the shielded black ones with the gold plugs @ the ends. Drove me nuts... run the RCA within 1.5 feet of the amp and alt whine would enter. It was progressive too, the closer the RCA was located to the amp the louder the whine became. It made cable routing a pain. Upgraded to high end cables and the whine stopped completely. At the time I was an IASCA competitor, with the whine costing me about 10-12 Noise floor points. Garrett Psych-O-Delic Voodoo Thunder Pig wrote: I'm upgrading my factory car stereo with a new headunit, speakers, and amp/subwoofer. I'm trying to decide what RCA cables to use to go from the HU to the amp. The Streetwires Zero Noise twisted-pair style interconnects look interesting. Cany anybody tell me their experiences with this style of cable, does it seem to be adequately shielded and does it have satisfactory noise rejection? thanks, jp |
#9
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"Twisted pair" RCA Interconnects?
I replaced it with my dad's phoenix gold RCAs for a couple IASCA shows
and the problem was fixed. I settled with a monster cable interlink of some sort, about a 35$ cable. Possible I got a bad cable from RS, but I took it apart and re-flow'd the solder joints to no avail. Ive been using it in my guitar rack for years and it sounds great with my high gain tube rack pictured on right... http://images.cardomain.com/member_i...68_59_full.jpg I cant figure it out, but I'm glad I found a solution... :~) Garrett Paul Vina wrote: Maybe the RS cable was damaged. If the shield was broken it'd do that. Did you try other RS rcas? Paul Vina "sanitarium" wrote in message ... I am the only one on this NG who would recommend higher end RCAs. In my accord with my Hifonics VIII Europa I was picking up alternator whine through the RCA cables. At the time I was using radio shack generic RCAs, the shielded black ones with the gold plugs @ the ends. Drove me nuts... run the RCA within 1.5 feet of the amp and alt whine would enter. It was progressive too, the closer the RCA was located to the amp the louder the whine became. It made cable routing a pain. Upgraded to high end cables and the whine stopped completely. At the time I was an IASCA competitor, with the whine costing me about 10-12 Noise floor points. Garrett Psych-O-Delic Voodoo Thunder Pig wrote: I'm upgrading my factory car stereo with a new headunit, speakers, and amp/subwoofer. I'm trying to decide what RCA cables to use to go from the HU to the amp. The Streetwires Zero Noise twisted-pair style interconnects look interesting. Cany anybody tell me their experiences with this style of cable, does it seem to be adequately shielded and does it have satisfactory noise rejection? thanks, jp |
#10
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"Twisted pair" RCA Interconnects?
I replaced it with my dad's phoenix gold RCAs for a couple IASCA shows
and the problem was fixed. I settled with a monster cable interlink of some sort, about a 35$ cable. Possible I got a bad cable from RS, but I took it apart and re-flow'd the solder joints to no avail. Ive been using it in my guitar rack for years and it sounds great with my high gain tube rack pictured on right... http://images.cardomain.com/member_i...68_59_full.jpg I cant figure it out, but I'm glad I found a solution... :~) If your amplifier was a source of noise outside the chassis, how come it's not doing anything to the signal inside the chassis? |
#11
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"Twisted pair" RCA Interconnects?
The break could have been farther down the cable, not in the end.
Paul Vina "sanitarium" wrote in message ... I replaced it with my dad's phoenix gold RCAs for a couple IASCA shows and the problem was fixed. I settled with a monster cable interlink of some sort, about a 35$ cable. Possible I got a bad cable from RS, but I took it apart and re-flow'd the solder joints to no avail. Ive been using it in my guitar rack for years and it sounds great with my high gain tube rack pictured on right... http://images.cardomain.com/member_i...68_59_full.jpg I cant figure it out, but I'm glad I found a solution... :~) Garrett Paul Vina wrote: Maybe the RS cable was damaged. If the shield was broken it'd do that. Did you try other RS rcas? Paul Vina "sanitarium" wrote in message ... I am the only one on this NG who would recommend higher end RCAs. In my accord with my Hifonics VIII Europa I was picking up alternator whine through the RCA cables. At the time I was using radio shack generic RCAs, the shielded black ones with the gold plugs @ the ends. Drove me nuts... run the RCA within 1.5 feet of the amp and alt whine would enter. It was progressive too, the closer the RCA was located to the amp the louder the whine became. It made cable routing a pain. Upgraded to high end cables and the whine stopped completely. At the time I was an IASCA competitor, with the whine costing me about 10-12 Noise floor points. Garrett Psych-O-Delic Voodoo Thunder Pig wrote: I'm upgrading my factory car stereo with a new headunit, speakers, and amp/subwoofer. I'm trying to decide what RCA cables to use to go from the HU to the amp. The Streetwires Zero Noise twisted-pair style interconnects look interesting. Cany anybody tell me their experiences with this style of cable, does it seem to be adequately shielded and does it have satisfactory noise rejection? thanks, jp |
#12
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"Twisted pair" RCA Interconnects?
I dont know??? I cant figure it out? Makes nosense to me either.
All I know is... With generic RCA cable = alt whine. Whine is progressively louder the closer the cable is routed to the amp. Whine is loudest when cable is routed on top of amp heatsink. Replace generic cable with either phoenix or monster cable and whine is completely gone regardless where cable is routed in proximity to the amp. Puzzles me to this day. Garrett Mark Zarella wrote: I replaced it with my dad's phoenix gold RCAs for a couple IASCA shows and the problem was fixed. I settled with a monster cable interlink of some sort, about a 35$ cable. Possible I got a bad cable from RS, but I took it apart and re-flow'd the solder joints to no avail. Ive been using it in my guitar rack for years and it sounds great with my high gain tube rack pictured on right... http://images.cardomain.com/member_i...68_59_full.jpg I cant figure it out, but I'm glad I found a solution... :~) If your amplifier was a source of noise outside the chassis, how come it's not doing anything to the signal inside the chassis? |
#13
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"Twisted pair" RCA Interconnects?
True... I'm just glad to have found a use for it.
Garrett Paul Vina wrote: The break could have been farther down the cable, not in the end. Paul Vina "sanitarium" wrote in message ... I replaced it with my dad's phoenix gold RCAs for a couple IASCA shows and the problem was fixed. I settled with a monster cable interlink of some sort, about a 35$ cable. Possible I got a bad cable from RS, but I took it apart and re-flow'd the solder joints to no avail. Ive been using it in my guitar rack for years and it sounds great with my high gain tube rack pictured on right... http://images.cardomain.com/member_i...68_59_full.jpg I cant figure it out, but I'm glad I found a solution... :~) Garrett Paul Vina wrote: Maybe the RS cable was damaged. If the shield was broken it'd do that. Did you try other RS rcas? Paul Vina "sanitarium" wrote in message ... I am the only one on this NG who would recommend higher end RCAs. In my accord with my Hifonics VIII Europa I was picking up alternator whine through the RCA cables. At the time I was using radio shack generic RCAs, the shielded black ones with the gold plugs @ the ends. Drove me nuts... run the RCA within 1.5 feet of the amp and alt whine would enter. It was progressive too, the closer the RCA was located to the amp the louder the whine became. It made cable routing a pain. Upgraded to high end cables and the whine stopped completely. At the time I was an IASCA competitor, with the whine costing me about 10-12 Noise floor points. Garrett Psych-O-Delic Voodoo Thunder Pig wrote: I'm upgrading my factory car stereo with a new headunit, speakers, and amp/subwoofer. I'm trying to decide what RCA cables to use to go from the HU to the amp. The Streetwires Zero Noise twisted-pair style interconnects look interesting. Cany anybody tell me their experiences with this style of cable, does it seem to be adequately shielded and does it have satisfactory noise rejection? thanks, jp |
#14
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"Twisted pair" RCA Interconnects?
Not all RCA cables are equal. They all exhibit different capacitance per
foot and inductance per foot. While the resistance per foot can be easily measured with a VOM, L and C need special meters. The upshot is that an "RF" antenna can be made with any combination of L C and R. Your alternator is a great source of RF. So, antenna + RF source = noise. You did right by choosing a different RCA cable. You can also twist your own RCA cables out of 2 colors of wire, an electric drill and a clamp or vise. 1. Take the two wire and clamp them to something. 2. Chuck up the other end of the wires in a drill. 3. hold the wires "taut" and twist them together. 4. Solder or crimp on your RCA ends. Viola! an RCA cable. BTW I use Neutrik "PRO-FI" RCA ends The good thing is, you can vary the twist per foot for each channel interconnect yourself. Different twist per foot helps to eliminate crosstalk between channels, especially in multichannel installations. Have fun! John sanitarium wrote: I dont know??? I cant figure it out? Makes nosense to me either. All I know is... With generic RCA cable = alt whine. Whine is progressively louder the closer the cable is routed to the amp. Whine is loudest when cable is routed on top of amp heatsink. Replace generic cable with either phoenix or monster cable and whine is completely gone regardless where cable is routed in proximity to the amp. Puzzles me to this day. Garrett Mark Zarella wrote: I replaced it with my dad's phoenix gold RCAs for a couple IASCA shows and the problem was fixed. I settled with a monster cable interlink of some sort, about a 35$ cable. Possible I got a bad cable from RS, but I took it apart and re-flow'd the solder joints to no avail. Ive been using it in my guitar rack for years and it sounds great with my high gain tube rack pictured on right... http://images.cardomain.com/member_images/5 web/401000-401999/401268_59_full.jpg I cant figure it out, but I'm glad I found a solution... :~) If your amplifier was a source of noise outside the chassis, how come it's not doing anything to the signal inside the chassis? |
#15
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"Twisted pair" RCA Interconnects?
Not all RCA cables are equal. They all exhibit different capacitance per
foot and inductance per foot. While the resistance per foot can be easily measured with a VOM, L and C need special meters. All you need is to run a sine sweep through a v divider. The upshot is that an "RF" antenna can be made with any combination of L C and R. Your alternator is a great source of RF. So, antenna + RF source = noise. You did right by choosing a different RCA cable. The reactance values don't differ enough for this to be an issue. |
#16
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"Twisted pair" RCA Interconnects?
I am just looking at the install done in a used car I just bought. It seems
that they used Rockford Fosgate unshielded untwisted RCA cables (just speaker wire with RCA ends). I've noticed some alternator whine. Would I be better off using a pair of shielded cables or making a set of twisted pair? (for some reason when I think of twisted pair I always think of balanced output). -Joe |
#17
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"Twisted pair" RCA Interconnects?
Or perhaps I should just twist the RF connects....
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#18
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"Twisted pair" RCA Interconnects?
I am just looking at the install done in a used car I just bought. It seems
that they used Rockford Fosgate unshielded untwisted RCA cables (just speaker wire with RCA ends). Are you sure? Some cables look like they are just merely speaker cables with RCA ends, but usually they are shielded cables. My Phoenix Gold cables look that way but they are shielded. But if they are indeed speaker wire with RCA ends I would replace them. Les |
#19
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"Twisted pair" RCA Interconnects?
Are you sure? Some cables look like they are just merely speaker cables
with RCA ends, but usually they are shielded cables. My Phoenix Gold cables look that way but they are shielded. But if they are indeed speaker wire with RCA ends I would replace them. I wouldn't. The RCAs are about the last thing to check if you've got whine. And even then, it's almost always that they're faulty. |
#20
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"Twisted pair" RCA Interconnects?
Mark Zarella wrote: Not all RCA cables are equal. They all exhibit different capacitance per foot and inductance per foot. While the resistance per foot can be easily measured with a VOM, L and C need special meters. All you need is to run a sine sweep through a v divider. Do you expect everybody to have a freq/sweep generator and know how to plot or interpret the returned values? Perhaps you should expound upon your premise and tell us all exactly how to set up this test. What should be our upper and lower frequency endpoints? What should be our driving voltage. What are the values for the two elements of the voltage divider? Should they be two capacitors, two inductors or two resistors?. As for the voltage divider, Is the proper method for finding the "unknown" value of a passive component the "nulling bridge" or is it a simple two component voltage divider? Please elucidate us. The upshot is that an "RF" antenna can be made with any combination of L C and R. Your alternator is a great source of RF. So, antenna + RF source = noise. You did right by choosing a different RCA cable. The reactance values don't differ enough for this to be an issue. Please supply us with hard data, lemma or proof that your above statement has foundation and merit. If the reactance value differentials are so minute, then might I suggest that you should always use either the cheapest RCA cables that you can find, *ANY* old cable that is lying around or even parallel speaker cable. I was merely pointing out that a poor quality, poor choice of cable type or bad cable can become an RF antenna and admit noise into an audio system. Perhaps you should focus on the positives instead of arguing minutia. If you can indeed prove me wrong that LCR combinations do not make an antenna, then I am more than willing to sit on a peer panel and review your proof or dissertation. |
#21
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"Twisted pair" RCA Interconnects?
If the reactance value differentials are so minute, then might I suggest
that you should always use either the cheapest RCA cables that you can find, *ANY* old cable that is lying around or even parallel speaker cable. Well parallel speaker cable is not shielded, and any old cable might work as long as it is still functional without breaks. You are not proving your point here, you are going to the opposite extreme looking for something to hold on to. I was merely pointing out that a poor quality, poor choice of cable type or bad cable can become an RF antenna and admit noise into an audio system. I do not think anyone is saying a bad cable won't cause issues. As far as quality goes, well, even the low end stuff from Radio Shack or Frys is good enough to not cause problems. Sure, wire can make and antenna but how often has it been a problem? In the many, many installs I have done it has never, not once, been a problem. Perhaps you should focus on the positives instead of arguing minutia. The positives are that you do not have to buy these fancy RCAs to maintain a quiet reliable system. If you can indeed prove me wrong that LCR combinations do not make an antenna, then I am more than willing to sit on a peer panel and review your proof or dissertation. I am not sure where you pulled that from. Maybe I missed it, where did someone say that LCR combinations do not make an antenna? Les |
#22
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"Twisted pair" RCA Interconnects?
I wouldn't. The RCAs are about the last thing to check if you've got whine.
And even then, it's almost always that they're faulty. True. But it takes a few seconds to make sure that they are actually RCA cables. And to me if it is actually just speaker wire, which would work, I would replace them with shielded cable. I do not like to leave leftovers from bad installs in a car I drive. Les |
#23
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"Twisted pair" RCA Interconnects?
some rca cables use a spiral copper shield under a clear jacket, they do
resemble clear jacketed speaker wire. "Soundfreak03" wrote in message ... I wouldn't. The RCAs are about the last thing to check if you've got whine. And even then, it's almost always that they're faulty. True. But it takes a few seconds to make sure that they are actually RCA cables. And to me if it is actually just speaker wire, which would work, I would replace them with shielded cable. I do not like to leave leftovers from bad installs in a car I drive. Les |
#24
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"Twisted pair" RCA Interconnects?
Thanks so much. After closer inspection they are shielded.
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#25
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"Twisted pair" RCA Interconnects?
All you need is to run a sine sweep through a v divider.
Do you expect everybody to have a freq/sweep generator and know how to plot or interpret the returned values? I think there are several people in here who know what a sine sweep is, and they have access to either a laptop to run their amplifiers directly or can burn a cd. Perhaps you should expound upon your premise and tell us all exactly how to set up this test. What should be our upper and lower frequency endpoints? What should be our driving voltage. What are the values for the two elements of the voltage divider? Should they be two capacitors, two inductors or two resistors?. Whatever is significant for the question at hand. You can run 20-20k, noting first the value of the reactance of the resistor and using that to calculate the impedance of the wire. As for the voltage divider, Is the proper method for finding the "unknown" value of a passive component the "nulling bridge" or is it a simple two component voltage divider? Please elucidate us. It depends on the accuracy that you need. I provided an example of the simplest means by which it can be done. Do you know of an easier way, that doesn't require exotic equipment or circuit building skills? It's much easier to burn a cd and read off an oscilloscope or voltmeter. The upshot is that an "RF" antenna can be made with any combination of L C and R. Your alternator is a great source of RF. So, antenna + RF source = noise. You did right by choosing a different RCA cable. The reactance values don't differ enough for this to be an issue. Please supply us with hard data, lemma or proof that your above statement has foundation and merit. I've measured the values myself. It's obviously not published. I can, however, provide a J.AES article where reactance was measured for a number of different wires, with different geometric properties, materials, and supposed build quality (exemplified by price, I suppose). http://www.geocities.com/audiotechpa...ractions. pdf My assertion is that differences in the impedance values of the cables tested in the Davis paper will not result in attenuation or phase distortion or hysteresis or any other parameter enough to exceed the corresponding psychophysical thresholds of a human observer when tested under actual conditions, especially in a car (but not necessarily so). If you want the "proofs" for the psychophysics, I could provide some other papers. You'll need to give me some time to scan them in. Or I could just give you references. Of course the psychophysics is much less consistent, but the point is still well illustrated and sound. If the reactance value differentials are so minute, then might I suggest that you should always use either the cheapest RCA cables that you can find, *ANY* old cable that is lying around or even parallel speaker cable. You could, yes. But there are other variables at play as well. Most notably, durability and flexibility. I was merely pointing out that a poor quality, poor choice of cable type or bad cable can become an RF antenna and admit noise into an audio system. Perhaps you should focus on the positives instead of arguing minutia. If you can indeed prove me wrong that LCR combinations do not make an antenna, then I am more than willing to sit on a peer panel and review your proof or dissertation. Arguing minutia? Sometimes arguing minutia is important. God is in the details. Anyway, I didn't mean to sound like I was nitpicking what you said. My post had two components: one that offered a simpler (though, admittedly, less accurate) approach to make rough measurements of a parameter. The other component was to refute your assertion that LC values are significant enough to introduce a problem. I've never run into a reproducable situation where this is the case, and I often use "cheap" cables. And it doesn't make sense that the differences in reactance would be substantial enough for the effect to be present in cable A but not cable B, and for there ALSO to be a correlation between the effect you describe and geometry/price/"quality". |
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