[Scott Dorsey]

I found this sermon absolutely rolling-on-the-floor hilarious. It's
clear the guy is actually a good musician and wants to rock out badly
but can't let himself do it.

http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slack...e_good_mu.html
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Chris Whealy]

Scott Dorsey wrote:
I found this sermon absolutely rolling-on-the-floor hilarious. It's clear the guy is actually a good musician and wants to rock out badly but can't let himself do it.

Hey, I'm a Christian, but this guy's an idiot! He has never read Bible,
and he knows nothing of what is acceptable to God and what isn't. What
he's talking about is not Christianity at all, he's simply describing
what has become culturally acceptable in his denomination. St Augustine
was once asked to summarize Christianity in one sentence. He replied
that to be a Christian meant that you should "Love God, and do what you
like". There's a lot of scope for misunderstanding that statement...

Also, its quite clear that he has alot of musical talent - sax, guitar,
piano and singing - yet he thinks that he must live by a code of does
and don't in order to stay acceptable to God. I.E. don't play certain
styles of music, or play certain beats because these are not acceptable
to God. What he really means is that these styles are not acceptable to
his denomination or his way of thinking.

This guy has obviously never seen Christianity outside the narrow
confines of his own denomination. I've been to conferences in Nigeria
where there are 20,000 Christians singing together in their own
syncopated African style, clapping off-beat rhythms, dancing around and
generally having a great time - no hint of disapproval from God either...

He should check out 1 Timothy 6:17. Just in case you haven't got a
Bible handy, it says "...nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the
living God, /who giveth us richly all things to enjoy/". Maybe this
preacher would like to have that verse deleted because it doesn't fit
his doctrine...

Like Einstein once said "If the facts don't fit the theory, then the
facts must be wrong".

:-P

Chris W

--
The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long,
But the words of the wise are quiet and few.
---

[philicorda[_3_]]

On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 14:21:44 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote:

I found this sermon absolutely rolling-on-the-floor hilarious. It's
clear the guy is actually a good musician and wants to rock out badly
but can't let himself do it.

http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slack...e_good_mu.html
--scott

I think his reaction is a good thing and should be encouraged.

I attended a Opus Dei club in my youth.
It took me years to recover after finding out that priest who took the
music class had not only been to more rock concerts that I had, but also
had a better record collection. Does no one consider what kind of effect
this could have a rebellious kid?

It's impossible to write shocking music nowadays. There are now TV advert
soundtracks that would make Pierre Schaeffer blush. Even the background
music of the local labour party political broadcast has a stinging acid
bass line and breakbeats in it.

The idea that this guy could be offended by boogie woogie piano gives me a
warm feeling that all might not be lost.

[Peter A. Stoll]

(Scott Dorsey) wrote in news:f15c3o$rol$1
@panix2.panix.com:

http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slack...e_good_mu.html
--scott

I have a problem on the opposite end of the spectrum. Once or twice a year
our church organist, who had a long career as a theatre organ player, is
away on a Sunday to play a gig. For years I've been the substitute.

The first problem is apparently that I play the piano instead of the organ.
but the bigger problem is that I play "classical" music for most of my
prelude/offertory/postlude selections.

My problem is narrowly and specifically with the choir director's wife,
who, since the director is mute as the result of a stroke a few years ago,
functions as the church music director. She has made a brief disapproving
comment, usually containing the word "classical" after most of my last few
year's substitutions. More pointedly, she has supplied me with books of
her husband's with "suitable" settings of hymn tunes for me to use instead
(the stroke took out one hand completely, so he does not play anymore).

So far as I can decipher, she views music in the church as solely a vehicle
for carrying appropriate text. So, unlike the chap in the video, she has
no problems with catchy music with any sort of beat, so long as the words
fit her expectations. But a Schubert Trio, with no words ever set to it,
just is not suitable for the Offertory. And a Scott Joplin rag
(Postlude)!! well... (I confess my own mother, who thinks I can do no
wrong musically, was pretty surprised that I played the Golliwog's Cakewalk
from Debussy's Children's Corner in church--that was a Postlude).

For my own part, I'm saddened as both a Christian and an amateur musician
that the very considerable part of the West's great music written before
the 19th century that was written for the Church is nearly vanished from
churches. So far as I can decipher, this is mostly a marketing thing.
Mainline denominations desperate for membership growth (or, more
realistically, for slower membership decline) see the musical component of
the Megachurches as a key tool and are all trooping into the same style.

A more complete marketing understanding would think about segmentation and
niches. Surely the fraction of the population to which the whole "Praise
Band" style speaks is pretty well-served. Surely there is room for a few
more styles, not all of the shipped from the Nashville commercial religious
music machine.

My problem is not with the Pastor. He was specifically happy with the
Joplin.

[Jay Kadis]

In article ,
(Scott Dorsey) wrote:

I found this sermon absolutely rolling-on-the-floor hilarious. It's
clear the guy is actually a good musician and wants to rock out badly
but can't let himself do it.

http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slack...e_good_mu.html
--scott

I'll bet he makes a better living than the average bar band does.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x---------- http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jay/ ------------x

[[email protected]]

What an interesting video! I can't help but wonder if this guy
is doing some sort of satire. He's a pretty good musician!

Scott Dorsey wrote:
: I found this sermon absolutely rolling-on-the-floor hilarious. It's
: clear the guy is actually a good musician and wants to rock out badly
: but can't let himself do it.

: http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slack...e_good_mu.html
: --scott
: --
: "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[jwvm]

On Apr 30, 5:36 pm, "Peter A. Stoll"
wrote:
(Scott Dorsey) wrote in news:f15c3o$rol$1
@panix2.panix.com:

http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slack...e_good_mu.html
--scott

I have a problem on the opposite end of the spectrum. Once or twice a year
our church organist, who had a long career as a theatre organ player, is
away on a Sunday to play a gig. For years I've been the substitute.

The first problem is apparently that I play the piano instead of the organ.
but the bigger problem is that I play "classical" music for most of my
prelude/offertory/postlude selections.

My problem is narrowly and specifically with the choir director's wife,
who, since the director is mute as the result of a stroke a few years ago,
functions as the church music director. She has made a brief disapproving
comment, usually containing the word "classical" after most of my last few
year's substitutions. More pointedly, she has supplied me with books of
her husband's with "suitable" settings of hymn tunes for me to use instead
(the stroke took out one hand completely, so he does not play anymore).

So far as I can decipher, she views music in the church as solely a vehicle
for carrying appropriate text. So, unlike the chap in the video, she has
no problems with catchy music with any sort of beat, so long as the words
fit her expectations. But a Schubert Trio, with no words ever set to it,
just is not suitable for the Offertory. And a Scott Joplin rag
(Postlude)!! well... (I confess my own mother, who thinks I can do no
wrong musically, was pretty surprised that I played the Golliwog's Cakewalk
from Debussy's Children's Corner in church--that was a Postlude).

For my own part, I'm saddened as both a Christian and an amateur musician
that the very considerable part of the West's great music written before
the 19th century that was written for the Church is nearly vanished from
churches. So far as I can decipher, this is mostly a marketing thing.
Mainline denominations desperate for membership growth (or, more
realistically, for slower membership decline) see the musical component of
the Megachurches as a key tool and are all trooping into the same style.

A more complete marketing understanding would think about segmentation and
niches. Surely the fraction of the population to which the whole "Praise
Band" style speaks is pretty well-served. Surely there is room for a few
more styles, not all of the shipped from the Nashville commercial religious
music machine.

My problem is not with the Pastor. He was specifically happy with the
Joplin.

The choir director's wife must never have heard Pachelbel's Kanon.

[jwvm]

On Apr 30, 2:21 pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
I found this sermon absolutely rolling-on-the-floor hilarious. It's
clear the guy is actually a good musician and wants to rock out badly
but can't let himself do it.

http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slack...e_good_mu.html
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I don't think I heard the preacher say that Rock and Roll and similar
genres were sinful but rather that they were not appropriate for
worship services. He seems to be very familiar with secular styles
perhaps indicating that he has played some "dance" music at one time
or another. As a minister, he can speak with some authority on what
kinds of music should be played at church services although he does
come off as somewhat of a fundamentalist. At least he is more open
about music than the Taliban.

[Les Cargill]

Jay Kadis wrote:
In article ,
(Scott Dorsey) wrote:


I found this sermon absolutely rolling-on-the-floor hilarious. It's
clear the guy is actually a good musician and wants to rock out badly
but can't let himself do it.

http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slack...e_good_mu.html
--scott


I'll bet he makes a better living than the average bar band does.

-Jay


Not if the bar band owns the bar business, building and
land it's located on.

--
Les Cargill

[[email protected]]

jwvm wrote:
On Apr 30, 2:21 pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
I found this sermon absolutely rolling-on-the-floor hilarious. It's
clear the guy is actually a good musician and wants to rock out badly
but can't let himself do it.

http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slack...e_good_mu.html
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I don't think I heard the preacher say that Rock and Roll and similar
genres were sinful but rather that they were not appropriate for
worship services. He seems to be very familiar with secular styles
perhaps indicating that he has played some "dance" music at one time
or another. As a minister, he can speak with some authority on what
kinds of music should be played at church services although he does
come off as somewhat of a fundamentalist. At least he is more open
about music than the Taliban.

Damning with faint praise?

[Scott Smith[_2_]]

"jwvm" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Apr 30, 2:21 pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
I found this sermon absolutely rolling-on-the-floor hilarious. It's
clear the guy is actually a good musician and wants to rock out badly
but can't let himself do it.

http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slack...e_good_mu.html
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I don't think I heard the preacher say that Rock and Roll and similar
genres were sinful but rather that they were not appropriate for
worship services.

He states, "You recognize one melody was suited to praising God and the
other melody, from the same instrument, played by the same person, was not
suited to praise God, and music is meant, melodies are meant, to praise
God."

[Scott Dorsey]

Jay Kadis wrote:
(Scott Dorsey) wrote:

I found this sermon absolutely rolling-on-the-floor hilarious. It's
clear the guy is actually a good musician and wants to rock out badly
but can't let himself do it.

http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slack...e_good_mu.html

I'll bet he makes a better living than the average bar band does.

From a look of it, he's a better musician than you find in the average
bar band, too. Also, of course, he gets that tax break...
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Don P.]

(Scott Dorsey) scribbled:

Jay Kadis wrote:
(Scott Dorsey) wrote:

I found this sermon absolutely rolling-on-the-floor hilarious. It's
clear the guy is actually a good musician and wants to rock out badly
but can't let himself do it.

http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slack...e_good_mu.html

I'll bet he makes a better living than the average bar band does.

From a look of it, he's a better musician than you find in the average
bar band, too. Also, of course, he gets that tax break...
--scott

Apparently, he has no idea that most of your classic hymns are actually bar
tunes with different words put to them.

[jwvm]

On Apr 30, 9:05 pm, "Scott Smith" wrote:

snip

He states, "You recognize one melody was suited to praising God and the
other melody, from the same instrument, played by the same person, was not
suited to praise God, and music is meant, melodies are meant, to praise
God."

You may be right. He is kind of cagey in the video. Most preachers of
his ilk will come right out and strongly condemn something that they
don't like as sinful, maybe even with fire and brimstone thrown in.
However, he tiptoes around the secular music issue. He does say that
"Heart and Soul" is not a good song. The lyrics of this song are
really pretty mild so he strongly leans toward a very conservative
interpretation of appropriate secular music. I wonder what he thinks
of the hand-clapping body-swaying celebrations of some fundamentalist
churches or for that matter sacred music by the likes of Bach or
Handel. He also took a swipe at, IIRC, Jimmy Swaggert for using
"dance" music. His guidelines for sacred music are certainly very
narrow and strict. With his numerous references to "dance" music, he
would probably not view dancing as an appropriate form of amusement
although marching would be fine. :-)

[Chris Hornbeck]

On 30 Apr 2007 19:31:56 -0700, jwvm wrote:

With his numerous references to "dance" music, he
would probably not view dancing as an appropriate form of amusement
although marching would be fine. :-)

In my part of the world there's an ancient joke about
Baptists never having sex while standing. Someone
might see them and assume that they were dancing.

It's Ok to tell the joke because everyone knows that
the most hardshell Baptists were the biggest Hellraisers
in their younger days, so all hardness is forgiven.

All good fortune,

Chris Hornbeck

[Ben Bradley]

On 30 Apr 2007 21:54:04 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

Jay Kadis wrote:
(Scott Dorsey) wrote:

I found this sermon absolutely rolling-on-the-floor hilarious. It's
clear the guy is actually a good musician and wants to rock out badly
but can't let himself do it.

http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slack...e_good_mu.html

I'll bet he makes a better living than the average bar band does.

From a look of it, he's a better musician than you find in the average
bar band, too. Also, of course, he gets that tax break...

I thought it was almost forgivable that the guitar was out of tune
(I immediately identified the sound as an out-of-tune 12-string,
without being able to see the individual tuning machines in the
video), as he rather blatantly admits by trying to tweak it after
having strummed a little bit (perhaps he could take some real-time
tuning lessons from old Jimi Hendrix videos). Maybe the lights heated
up the instrument and threw it out.
But then he played the piano. I'm pretty sure this was not a
psychoacoustic compression artifact - the piano was simply out of
tune. If he can afford to have video made, wear the nice suit, get the
tax breaks, I'd think he could have had the piano tuned.

An out-of-tune instrument is truly sinful.

--scott

[Peter A. Stoll]

Ben Bradley wrote in
:

But then he played the piano. I'm pretty sure this was not a
psychoacoustic compression artifact - the piano was simply out of
tune. If he can afford to have video made, wear the nice suit, get the
tax breaks, I'd think he could have had the piano tuned.

An out-of-tune instrument is truly sinful.

Yes I agree the piano in the video is wildly out-of-tune. But pretty bad
pianos and churches are not unknown companions. About 1973 I was a flunky
at Tanglewood with scheduling responsibility for the vocal music
activities. During an extra chorus rehearsal I had arranged at a non-
preferred venue (Windsor Mountain School Theater), Seiji Ozawa commented on
how bad the piano was by saying "that piano belongs in a church". I don't
think it was an anticlerical comment--just realistic.

One common problem is that the sanctuary being in use not so many hours per
week, the folks paying for the heat only want to heat when people will be
around. Huge temperature swings and piano (or pipe organ) tuning are not
friends. Movement is another problem.

[Paul Stamler]

"Peter A. Stoll" wrote in message
. 97.138...

For my own part, I'm saddened as both a Christian and an amateur musician
that the very considerable part of the West's great music written before
the 19th century that was written for the Church is nearly vanished from
churches. So far as I can decipher, this is mostly a marketing thing.
Mainline denominations desperate for membership growth (or, more
realistically, for slower membership decline) see the musical component of
the Megachurches as a key tool and are all trooping into the same style.

A more complete marketing understanding would think about segmentation and
niches. Surely the fraction of the population to which the whole "Praise
Band" style speaks is pretty well-served. Surely there is room for a few
more styles, not all of the shipped from the Nashville commercial
religious
music machine.

My problem is not with the Pastor. He was specifically happy with the
Joplin.

I'd enjoy a Christian service that ended with Scott Joplin, and I'm not even
a Christian. My rabbi is a former R&B singer who's still occasionally known
to throw a James Brown vocal lick into the Hebrew, and made Sam Cooke's "A
Change is Gonna Come" the centerpiece of his high holidays services. Pretty
fair version of it, too.

A few years ago, I attended midnight mass on Christmas Eve at the big
Catholic church at St. Louis University, and was sadly disappointed to hear
that most of the music was pablum, either written by people who thought
Peter, Paul & Mary (the singing group, I hasten to add) were okay but a
little too funky, or folks who wanted to write something that was both
atonal and accessible. The only good songs all night were written by Bach --
a Protestant.

About the only thing my ex-father-in-law (a preacher in the U.C.C.) really
agreed upon was that modern church music sucked glue. Remember, the psalmist
didn't say "Make a moderately pleasant but inoffensive noise unto the Lord."

Peace,
Paul

[Paul Stamler]

"Don P." wrote in message
...
(Scott Dorsey) scribbled:
From a look of it, he's a better musician than you find in the average
bar band, too. Also, of course, he gets that tax break...
--scott

Apparently, he has no idea that most of your classic hymns are actually
bar
tunes with different words put to them.

Unless you're in Yorkshire at Christmastime, when they sing hymns in bars.

Peace,
Paul

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Tue, 01 May 2007 06:03:49 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
wrote:

I'd enjoy a Christian service that ended with Scott Joplin, and I'm not even
a Christian. My rabbi is a former R&B singer who's still occasionally known
to throw a James Brown vocal lick into the Hebrew, and made Sam Cooke's "A
Change is Gonna Come" the centerpiece of his high holidays services. Pretty
fair version of it, too.

I'm only a two hour drive from Al Green's church in Memphis,
but haven't been.

If there is a vengeful God, mine is exactly the kind of
inane slacking off that won't be forgiven.

Much thanks, as always,

Chris Hornbeck

[studiorat]

Well, I think Christian Rock bands are the spawn of Satan.

[Tommy B.]

Can you say fascist boys and girls?
If this guy wasn't so pathetic, he'd be scary.
I waiting for his next video, where he starts burning the Beatles "records".
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tom




"Jay Kadis" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Scott Dorsey) wrote:

I found this sermon absolutely rolling-on-the-floor hilarious. It's
clear the guy is actually a good musician and wants to rock out badly
but can't let himself do it.

http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slack...e_good_mu.html
--scott

I'll bet he makes a better living than the average bar band does.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x---------- http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jay/ ------------x

[Ty Ford]

On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 14:21:44 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote
(in article ):

I found this sermon absolutely rolling-on-the-floor hilarious. It's
clear the guy is actually a good musician and wants to rock out badly
but can't let himself do it.

http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slack...e_good_mu.html
--scott


I have no sympathy for that devil.

Regards,

Ty Ford



--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZJ9MptZmU

[Scott Dorsey]

Chris Whealy wrote:

Also, its quite clear that he has alot of musical talent - sax, guitar,
piano and singing - yet he thinks that he must live by a code of does
and don't in order to stay acceptable to God. I.E. don't play certain
styles of music, or play certain beats because these are not acceptable
to God. What he really means is that these styles are not acceptable to
his denomination or his way of thinking.

Well, he is saying that those sorts of music are not appropriate for
worship. The PROBLEM is that if you take him at his word, it eliminates
dance music like Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring and music that uses certain
beats, like the Bach Magnificat.

This guy has obviously never seen Christianity outside the narrow
confines of his own denomination. I've been to conferences in Nigeria
where there are 20,000 Christians singing together in their own
syncopated African style, clapping off-beat rhythms, dancing around and
generally having a great time - no hint of disapproval from God either...

It sounds to me like he is very much concerned with keeping his body's
desire under control. He wants to groove very, very badly, but he is
concerned that he should not.

Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring is _supposed_ to groove.

He should check out 1 Timothy 6:17. Just in case you haven't got a
Bible handy, it says "...nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the
living God, /who giveth us richly all things to enjoy/". Maybe this
preacher would like to have that verse deleted because it doesn't fit
his doctrine...

He's not alone, though. What makes him unique is that he is able to
articulate his doctrine in a clear way.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Chris Whealy]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

Well, he is saying that those sorts of music are not appropriate for worship.
That's the rules and regulations of his denomination speaking. Please
do not confuse this with Christianity.
The PROBLEM is that if you take him at his word, it eliminates dance music like Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring and music that uses certain beats, like the Bach Magnificat.

Good job then I don't take him at his word. I love Baroque music not
only because of the counterpoint, but because it is very close to modern
jazz.
It sounds to me like he is very much concerned with keeping his body's desire under control. He wants to groove very, very badly, but he is concerned that he should not.

This is very apparent. But it is also apparent (to me at least), that
he does not understand the truth of Christianity. Instead he sees his
faith simply as a list of things he is /not/ permitted to do. This my
quotation from St Augustine and 1 Tim 6:17. True Christianity means you
can "Love God, and do what you like".
Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring is _supposed_ to groove.

Someone once asked Glen Gould why he didn't play jazz. His answer was
very perceptive: "Why do I need Jazz? I have Bach"
He's not alone, though. What makes him unique is that he is able to articulate his doctrine in a clear way.

True. But again, he is repeating his /doctrine/, and not the truth of
Christianity. If Jesus were on earth today, many Christians would find
Him unacceptable because he would not conform to their doctrinal rules
and regulations. You can do all the wrong things for the right reasons,
and God isn't in the slightest bit bothered about the outward
behaviour. However, if you do all the right things for the wrong
reasons, then your motives will be the problem. God looks at the heart,
and not at the outward appearance.

Frankly, God isn't much bothered about what melodies or rhythms are used
in a praise service because He looks at people's hearts.

Chris W

--
The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long,
But the words of the wise are quiet and few.
---

[Ethan Winer]

Chris,

he knows nothing of what is acceptable to God and what isn't.

But how could ANY human claim to know what is acceptable to a god?

For example, does god want you to be chaste and pure, or go forth and
multiply? There are too many contradictions and human emotions expressed in
the various bibles for me to take any of them seriously. :-)

It seems to me that anyone who claims to know what god wants is really just
showing his own prejudices and preferences.

--Ethan

[Richard Crowley]

"Ethan Winer" wrote ...
But how could ANY human claim to know what is acceptable to a god?

For example, does god want you to be chaste and pure, or go forth and
multiply?

Your lack of understanding the language does not imply that
others don't understand it.

There are too many contradictions and human emotions expressed in the
various bibles for me to take any of them seriously. :-)

It seems to me that anyone who claims to know what god wants is really
just showing his own prejudices and preferences.

Why did you think we would be interested in your personal
interperetation? Do you want to hear mine?

[Nono]

Hmmm,

[hank alrich]

"Ethan Winer" wrote:

Chris,

he knows nothing of what is acceptable to God and what isn't.

But how could ANY human claim to know what is acceptable to a god?

For example, does god want you to be chaste and pure, or go forth and
multiply? There are too many contradictions and human emotions expressed in
the various bibles for me to take any of them seriously. :-)

It seems to me that anyone who claims to know what god wants is really just
showing his own prejudices and preferences.

Obviously, if there is a god, everything is okay with her.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[hank alrich]

Richard Crowley wrote:

Your lack of understanding the language does not imply that
others don't understand it.

Right, after all, delusions are what we make of them.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[Arny Krueger]

"Chris Whealy" wrote in message

Scott Dorsey wrote:

I found this sermon absolutely rolling-on-the-floor
hilarious. It's clear the guy is actually a good
musician and wants to rock out badly but can't let
himself do it.

Hey, I'm a Christian, but this guy's an idiot!

I'll go with badly mislead. Unfortunately, he is mislead in ways I see far
too closely in my own churches life.

He has never read Bible,

I'm sure he has read the Bible, but some people perceive what they want to
perceive when they read.

and he knows nothing of what is acceptable to God and what isn't.

More to the point, he has a lot of misapprehensions. Let's call a spade a
spade - this guy is pretty deep into classical Christian legalism. He's
probably got the approval of the Pensicola Christian College (see
wikipedia).

What he's talking
about is not Christianity at all, he's simply describing
what has become culturally acceptable in his
denomination.

The span of what he is promoting is probably far narrower than a typical
denomination. For example there are three churches that are long-standing
members of the same Baptist denomination within 2 miles of my house. One of
these churches might agree with Alan Ives, one of these churches basically
does contemporary rock-based worship, and one tries to be "blended" - a sort
of potpurri of traditional songs and chicken rock.

St Augustine was once asked to summarize
Christianity in one sentence. He replied that to be a
Christian meant that you should "Love God, and do what
you like". There's a lot of scope for misunderstanding
that statement...

I've got this obsession with following Matt 28:18-20.

Also, its quite clear that he has alot of musical talent
- sax, guitar, piano and singing - yet he thinks that he
must live by a code of does and don't in order to stay
acceptable to God.

Yup, legalism.

I.E. don't play certain styles of
music, or play certain beats because these are not
acceptable to God.

It must be wonderful to know the mind of God so well, and on behalf of all
of the cultures and people groups on earth. ;-)

What he really means is that these
styles are not acceptable to his denomination or his way
of thinking.

The latter.

This guy has obviously never seen Christianity outside
the narrow confines of his own denomination.

He may have, but it probably gave him a headache. I've seen this happen up
front and personal. Take certain traditionally-oriented people to a church
that is obviously modern, agressive, and growing. They will become very
unhappy. They won't like what they see. Too many bright lights and loud
sounds. Too many people way too enthusiastic about the Lord and His Kingdom.

I've been
to conferences in Nigeria where there are 20,000
Christians singing together in their own syncopated
African style, clapping off-beat rhythms, dancing around
and generally having a great time - no hint of
disapproval from God either...

No bolts of lightening? ;-)

He should check out 1 Timothy 6:17. Just in case you
haven't got a Bible handy, it says "...nor trust in
uncertain riches, but in the living God, /who giveth us
richly all things to enjoy/". Maybe this preacher would
like to have that verse deleted because it doesn't fit
his doctrine...

I'm sure Alan Ives has got his spin on that. It probably involves straw men.

Like Einstein once said "If the facts don't fit the
theory, then the facts must be wrong".

I recently was listening to a pastor who said something like:

Some people think that God blesses only certain styles of worship (music).

This pastor then rattled off the names of about 6 well-known churches that
spanned the gamut of American Christian worship styles, all of which were
growing both numerically and spiritually.

The point is obvious - Christians should choose the worship style that is
going to grow God's kingdom best in the mission field that God has put them
into.

Alan Ives isn't promoting that idea but something far broader and more
legalistic, so AFAIK he's doing wrong. God help him!

[Arny Krueger]

"Ethan Winer" ethanw at ethanwiner dot com wrote in
message
Chris,

he knows nothing of what is acceptable to God and what
isn't.

But how could ANY human claim to know what is acceptable
to a god?
For example, does god want you to be chaste and pure, or
go forth and multiply?

Bad theology. Sex within marriage is chaste and pure.

There are too many contradictions
and human emotions expressed in the various bibles for me
to take any of them seriously. :-)

Just guessing here, but you've already got enough things wrong that I think
you need to study the subject a little more before further expressing
yourself Ethan.

It seems to me that anyone who claims to know what god
wants is really just showing his own prejudices and
preferences.

I think that it is possible for people to know what God wants *them* to do,
but many people go way beyond that and fall off the edge.

[Don Pearce]

On Wed, 2 May 2007 09:18:46 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

Bad theology. Sex within marriage is chaste and pure.

Not the way most English people do it, it isn't ;-)

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

[Ethan Winer]

Hank,

Obviously, if there is a god, everything is okay with her.

Yeah, apparently war and poverty and extreme suffering by billions of people
and animals every year are all part of her master plan...

--Ethan

[hank alrich]

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Ethan Winer" ethanw at ethanwiner dot com wrote in
message
Chris,

he knows nothing of what is acceptable to God and what
isn't.

But how could ANY human claim to know what is acceptable
to a god?
For example, does god want you to be chaste and pure, or
go forth and multiply?

Bad theology. Sex within marriage is chaste and pure.

Sex is sex.

There are too many contradictions
and human emotions expressed in the various bibles for me
to take any of them seriously. :-)

Just guessing here, but you've already got enough things wrong that I think
you need to study the subject a little more before further expressing
yourself Ethan.

Your selfdelusions are perfectly acceptable to you.

It seems to me that anyone who claims to know what god
wants is really just showing his own prejudices and
preferences.

I think that it is possible for people to know what God wants *them* to do,
but many people go way beyond that and fall off the edge.

Do you think Jesus would be hanging at Nascar races?

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[hank alrich]

"Ethan Winer" wrote:

Hank,

Obviously, if there is a god, everything is okay with her.

Yeah, apparently war and poverty and extreme suffering by billions of people
and animals every year are all part of her master plan...

Hey, don't worry, Ethan, because there is Nascar.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[Paul Stamler]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

The span of what he is promoting is probably far narrower than a typical
denomination. For example there are three churches that are long-standing
members of the same Baptist denomination within 2 miles of my house. One
of
these churches might agree with Alan Ives, one of these churches
basically
does contemporary rock-based worship, and one tries to be "blended" - a
sort
of potpurri of traditional songs and chicken rock.

Chicken rock?

Peace,
Paul

[Les Cargill]

Ethan Winer wrote:

Chris,

he knows nothing of what is acceptable to God and what isn't.


But how could ANY human claim to know what is acceptable to a god?

For example, does god want you to be chaste and pure, or go forth and
multiply?


In a culture of primogeniture, the fatherhood of children is
legal grounds for the distribution of property. Therefore,
adultery was a form of ... theft, for lack of a better term.

The Mosaic version of this is a lot earthier than the
Byzantine version, which ... doesn't make any sense to
hardly anybody.

There are too many contradictions and human emotions expressed
in the various bibles for me to take any of them seriously. :-)


Well, whaddaya expect from people?

It seems to me that anyone who claims to know what god wants is really
just showing his own prejudices and preferences.


There's a movement afoot to make religion a brain architecture thing.
They'll find out that's a dead end, and the pendulum will swing
the other way again. Religion is because the Egyptians needed a
common cultural identity beyond what tribalism could support, and a
means of synchronizing distributed agriculture.

I dunno. You might find Dr. Gene Scott entertaining - he seems to be a
pretty good linguist as well as preacher, and he does this sorta
thing.

Nothing like Dr. Gene back in the '80s after a night of depraved
musical squalor. Good times.

--Ethan

--
Les Cargill

[Les Cargill]

hank alrich wrote:

"Ethan Winer" wrote:


Hank,


Obviously, if there is a god, everything is okay with her.

Yeah, apparently war and poverty and extreme suffering by billions of people
and animals every year are all part of her master plan...


Hey, don't worry, Ethan, because there is Nascar.


Yes, but Ethan already covered that with that list of things.

--
Les Cargill

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Wed, 02 May 2007 14:14:53 GMT, (Don Pearce)
wrote:

Bad theology. Sex within marriage is chaste and pure.

Not the way most English people do it, it isn't ;-)

Or, as it's sometimes put, not if done right.

Much thanks, as always,

Chris Hornbeck
"If you're doing this as a volunteer, don't."
- Paul Stamler