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Default ATM 350 discontinued? Prodipe SB21 resilience to Larsen on stage?

This is about clip-on mics to use on (jazz) stage with open trumped and Harmon muted trumpet.


Important features apart good sound fidelity:

- SPL = 130 dB
- resilience to Larsen (also considering the sound of other instruments in the band, direct and from the monitor)
- enough shock absorption, enough suppression of the trumpet valves vibrations which are transmitted through the instrument metal and the mic support
- enough low noise to avoid using a processor with noise gate


Apparently the Audio-Technica ATM 350 is discontinued. Anybody knows why? Are they replacing it with a new model or just leaving the cheaper PRO 35? And what about the latter?


I'm hearing good things about a cheaper one, Prodipe SB21, any experience with it?


(((((

Just sharing, not relevant to the above questions:

My old AKG 519 is starting to wear off mechanically, and it has always been a bit hissy, I have to use a noise gate, but I'd be happy to be able to leave that at home.

I'm not planning to buy any other AKG mics at the moment, I'd prefer to explore on other brands, given a recent small disappointment from an AKG C1000S: it switched on with difficulty on batteries when brand new, 4-5 trials, it doesn't at all now apparently, phantom only, problem is I bought it 12000 km from here... Besides, I found the batteires/capsule support cracked, that might have happened while inserting batteries or more probably because of some bump on the road while the batteries were in (other equipment in the same bag had zero damage). I'd recommend not leaving batteries in during transport, because of that plastic support fragility. I simply patched the support with adhesive tape and the mic still works fine, and admittedly the sound is very nice, and even nicer considering the price. But...

)))))


Thanks for any advice.
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Default ATM 350 discontinued? Prodipe SB21 resilience to Larsen on stage?

P.S.: tried a (cheqp) Proel HCS30, surprising sound for the price despite the narrower frequency response on paper, BUT not enough shock mount, the trumpet valves noise comes in quite evident (NOT with any mic on a stand separate from the instrument, including the HCS30 itself, I mean that noise travels through the instrument brass and the mic support when clipped onto the instrument.
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Default ATM 350 discontinued? Prodipe SB21 resilience to Larsen on stage?

P.S.

I had previously tried a Proel HCS30, cheaper than the AT PRO35 or ProDipe SB21: surprising sound for the price despite the narrower frequency response on paper, BUT not enough shock mount, the trumpet valves noise comes in quite evident (NOT with any mic on a stand separate from the instrument, including the HCS30 itself, I mean that noise travels through the instrument brass and the mic support when clipped onto the instrument.
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geoff geoff is offline
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Default ATM 350 discontinued? Prodipe SB21 resilience to Larsen on stage?

On 31/01/2018 4:06 AM, wrote:
This is about clip-on mics to use on (jazz) stage with open trumped and Harmon muted trumpet.


Important features apart good sound fidelity:

- SPL = 130 dB
- resilience to Larsen (also considering the sound of other instruments in the band, direct and from the monitor)
- enough shock absorption, enough suppression of the trumpet valves vibrations which are transmitted through the instrument metal and the mic support
- enough low noise to avoid using a processor with noise gate


Apparently the Audio-Technica ATM 350 is discontinued. Anybody knows why? Are they replacing it with a new model or just leaving the cheaper PRO 35? And what about the latter?


I'm hearing good things about a cheaper one, Prodipe SB21, any experience with it?


(((((

Just sharing, not relevant to the above questions:

My old AKG 519 is starting to wear off mechanically, and it has always been a bit hissy, I have to use a noise gate, but I'd be happy to be able to leave that at home.

I'm not planning to buy any other AKG mics at the moment, I'd prefer to explore on other brands, given a recent small disappointment from an AKG C1000S: it switched on with difficulty on batteries when brand new, 4-5 trials, it doesn't at all now apparently, phantom only, problem is I bought it 12000 km from here... Besides, I found the batteires/capsule support cracked, that might have happened while inserting batteries or more probably because of some bump on the road while the batteries were in (other equipment in the same bag had zero damage). I'd recommend not leaving batteries in during transport, because of that plastic support fragility. I simply patched the support with adhesive tape and the mic still works fine, and admittedly the sound is very nice, and even nicer considering the price. But...

)))))


Thanks for any advice.


Dunno about hte ATM350 sorry.

But should have checked here first re C1000S . Batteries or phantom,
should sound like being stung by a wasp. Unless they've totally
redesigned it !

geoff
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Ty Ford[_2_] Ty Ford[_2_] is offline
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Default ATM 350 discontinued? Prodipe SB21 resilience to Larsen on stage?

AHEM!

The ATM 350 has not been discontinued.

http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wi...b0b/index.html

Regards,

Ty Ford


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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default ATM 350 discontinued? Prodipe SB21 resilience to Larsen on stage?

wrote:
This is about clip-on mics to use on (jazz) stage with open trumped and Har=
mon muted trumpet.


To be honest, I really don't like miking trumpet bells. Yeah, the
performer doesn't need to be in front of a mike, but the sound is never
as natural as a mike at a greater distance. And with something like the
RE-20, the performer can move around an awful lot without problems even
using a stand mike.

But.... if you MUST use a mike on the bell, consider the lowly Shure SM-11.
It's cheap, it gets a bad rap on the whole, but it's actually not a bad
sounding mike for the application. Not natural, but if you were looking
for natural you likely wouldn't be miking the bell. It's a good pop sound.

At festivals, I am seeing a lot of brass players coming in with mikes from
Applied Microphone Technology. You may want to look into them. They seem
well made and they aren't any worse than anything stuck down the horn to
my mind. The mounting hardware is convenient.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Default ATM 350 discontinued? Prodipe SB21 resilience to Larsen on stage?

Thanks to all who answered!
I think I owe an answer to each one although not everybody might find it interesting.

geoff wrote:
Dunno about hte ATM350 sorry.

But should have checked here first re C1000S . Batteries or phantom,
should sound like being stung by a wasp. Unless they've totally
redesigned it !

geoff


I've scrolled down to threads started in July 2015 and had no results searching for C1000S, if you have a link to that thread handy I'd be interested to read through it.
By "stung by a wasp" you mean uneven response in some frequency range or...?
Redesigned with respect to when or what other model?
(I hope for them they redesign that piece which supports the batteries and the capsule, or use a better material for it.)

From tests in a room which natural reverberation I like, I find that the trumpet bell has to stay close to the C1000S head, 3-4 cm, in order to capture the same "fat" sound I hear in the room (by "fat" I mean with good presence of mid-low frequencies).

Alternatively, without exploiting proximity, the mic can stay 20-30 cm away, but then I need to also record the sound from far away in the room, *not* pointing the mic to the trumpet, instead to the ceiling for instance (tests needed), in order to get that "fat" portion of the sound (a P170 is not too bad for that, although it gave me a very low hum noise that I don't get with the C1000S, not difficult to "notch down" anyway). By only EQing the C1000S I didn't get to an equally good result.
Mixing the two tracks is not too critical as the take from far away lacks "detail", but it might a good precaution to realign the timing of the two tracks to avoid phase distortion, e.g. by delaying the take of the closest mic, an impulsive noise at the beginning of the take can be useful.

(BTW recording _only_ from far away lacks detail to my taste. Also, bounces in the room can be very critical and give nasty results, with the trumpet more than with most other instruments IMO.)




Ty Ford wrote:
AHEM!

The ATM 350 has not been discontinued.

http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wi...b0b/index.html
[...]


Ohhh I see now, thank you! That's the replacement, ATM 350a, the ATM 350 is here, actually discontinued: http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wi...870fb398e6978/




Scott Dorsey wrote:
To be honest, I really don't like miking trumpet bells. Yeah, the
performer doesn't need to be in front of a mike, but the sound is never
as natural as a mike at a greater distance. And with something like the
RE-20, the performer can move around an awful lot without problems even
using a stand mike. [...]


Yep, the bell is supposed to vibrate freely...

I've searched the RE-20 on YouTube, found a sax take, nice sound. However:

- Wouldn't the fact that you can move around that much mean that its polar pattern is not very directional, maybe not even cardioid, thus making it more prone to Larsen problems in a live gig? (Well, I reckon that being on a fixed stand it is anyway less prone to bad surprises than a mic on the bell moving with the musician.)

- So far, I've been using the AKG 519 on the bell only with mutes of "Harmon" type. Not only this mutes usually reduce the volume quite a lot (most open types give a sound more similar to a "Straight" mute), but, also, to record the most interesting sound from them, IMO, the mic needs to stay at a rather short distance, typically 2-3 cm, around one inch. Too close can give excessive proximity and low frequencies, and the mic can even obtrude the emission and capture wind noise.

Positioning at such short distance is kind of critical, of course, because a small absolute change is a big relative one, not only with a mic on stand, but also with a mic clipped onto the bell, meaning that when moving the mic to unplug/plug the mute you need to try to repeat the same mic positioning that the sound guy in the gig has already come to handle.

The support of the AMT mic you mention in the rest of your comment (P800 is the trumpet one) might actually permit to plug/unplug the mute without moving the mic. I've checked YouTube... the few videos I found with that mic give a nice but rather "thin" sound... I guess with the same support you might place it closer to the bell and also very close to the mute. There's plenty of reverb anyway in those videos, not so easy to have a more precise idea of how the mic itself sounds. I'd be happy to try/buy one but I see that here in Argentina you can only get AMT mics on demand and the price ends up being 3-4x the price in the USA, the Z1 flute for instance (can't find the P800) is 1338 USD vs. 332, at the current change rate.

Now, admittedly, I'd really like to be able to start avoiding staying stuck to a stand mic _also_ when playing with open trumpet, which would also allow to give a look at some other musician of the band while playing... but I'd also like to avoid Larsen effects while doing so, so the mic should be rather cardioid or super/hyper cardioid.

(On the wish list I also have a lightweight not too expensive compact clean sounding processor with combined Phantom/jack input(s), reverb, EQ and compression with parameters as clearly identifiable as the ones you find in DAWs, e.g. Ableton Live, so I'll have to research on that one too, but that would be another thread in this forum anyway.)


I searched YouTube and ebay for the Shure SM-11 too, quite interesting, less then half the price of the Proel HCS30... Alas I found no trumpet takes, nor sax ones.
It lacks a support suitable for the trumpet, apparently. Is there any suitable third party support out there with good shock absorption? (As for theProel HCS30, as I wrote befo surprisingly nice sound for the price, but not enough shock absorption to avoid receiving the valves vibrations.)


But I see that Shure also makes the WB98H/C, 209 USD on ebay USA, "only" twice in Argentina and apparently it is available. I searched YouTube, hey Chris Botti endorses it, with his beautiful sound.
Not clear if the default capsule is "unidirectional (cardioid)", or the RPM108 cardioid, or the RPM110 supercardioid, I doubt it comes with more than one anyway. Also, reading questions/answers in a local seller's page, it's not clear if you can buy the mic and later decide to connect it to a wireless transmitter, it would seems as it's two different mics, strangely enough and unfortunately, well I'll have to find out.
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Default ATM 350 discontinued? Prodipe SB21 resilience to Larsen on stage?

*it would seem
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Default ATM 350 discontinued? Prodipe SB21 resilience to Larsen on stage?

On 01-02-2018 06:47, wrote:

I've scrolled down to threads started in July 2015 and had no results searching for C1000S


Scrolled, even if google are a bit shy about the existence of google
groups, basically a rip-off of usenet, but useful anyway, then they
still exist. Entering via the front door and searching yields this:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!se...0s%7Csort:date

This here silly daily thinks it must break also link-lines, so you'll
have to fix that yourself.

By "stung by a wasp" you mean uneven response in some frequency range or...?


The C1000S sounds very much like a condenser microphone. Also it is
quite blast sensitive and should never be used without a wind screen.

From tests in a room which natural reverberation I like, I find that the
trumpet bell has to stay close to the C1000S head, 3-4 cm, in order

to capture
the same "fat" sound I hear in the room (by "fat" I mean with good presence
of mid-low frequencies).


Look carefully at microphone specs, it is not always a good concept to
use a condenser microphone on brass. Some old measurements, I don't know
where the tiny green piece of paper is they were written on in the
1970'ties by a guy who had borrowed the brand new B&K peak hold meter on
the day job:

Trombone, operated by amateur, at 1 meter: 142 dB SPL PEAK HOLD

Saxophone, baritone assumed (Karsten Vogel was the player) at players
ear during a recording session: 135 dB SPL PEAK HOLD.

This means that if you want to put anything condensermicrophone on the
bell of a brass instrument and you do NOT want it to clip its internal
FET said anything should be able to handle 150 dB SPL. That also applies
for anything you put up as drumkit overhead. No, you won't hear
condensers there clip, but the transient from the drumstick hitting the
cymbal will be missing.

So when Scott suggests RE20 - I'd suggest MD421 or MD211 - that is for
three reasons: they don't clip, they gently compress and they do not
output troublesome ultrahigh frequencies that stress the mixer inputs
preamp, be it from clipping or from the cymbals.

Alternatively, without exploiting proximity, the mic can stay 20-30 cm away,
but then I need to also record the sound from far away in the room, *not*
pointing the mic to the trumpet, instead to the ceiling for instance
(tests needed), in order to get that "fat" portion of the sound
(a P170 is not too bad for that, although it gave me a very low hum noise
that I don't get with the C1000S, not difficult to "notch down" anyway).


Yes, close and less close microphone setup is a good idea if recording a
concert hall type instrument in a living room, put the stereo verb on
the distant stereo pair (!).

By only EQing the C1000S I didn't get to an equally good result.


Sorry, there is no way of saying this that does not come across as
arrogant and blunt combined: if you want to make good recordings use
good microphones. I'll take my first version chinese SC1's - came as
ADK's as well as sE's, mine are ADK - anytime over C1000S, they have
some weird notches in frequency response but actually sound open with a
sensible "421-like" upper range rise, works very well on jazz drumkit,
good on piano and are quite usable on singing wimmen of the classical
kind for oratorio recording. The were the stop-gap solution when I upped
my recording channel count, but good enough to keep after being replaced
by something else.

Mixing the two tracks is not too critical as the take from far away lacks
"detail", but it might a good precaution to realign the timing of the two
tracks to avoid phase distortion, e.g. by delaying the take of the

closest
mic, an impulsive noise at the beginning of the take can be useful.


No, that is not the trick with the "close + far setup". The trick is to
delay the mic that is 5 feet away "a wee bit" (some milliseconds, no, it
can not be specified as a "textbook example", there are too many
variables) and add reverb.

(BTW recording _only_ from far away lacks detail to my taste.


That is why I say you need better mics. I don't know what will work for
you, but uppermost on my mic wishlist right now is a pair of Neumann
TLM102's. Anyway, this is recorded from fairly far away as it is a
concert recording - no, not neumann - no lack of detail, youtube
encoding permitting, to me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJa8eDuGPcg

Sennheiser have added a large membrane mic to their repertoire, it too
may be well worth listening to, their stuff has changed in a musical way
after they purchased Neumann lock, stock, barrel and desktop design
drawer ... O;-) ... the 80x0 series certainly sounds neumanesque to me.

Also, bounces in the room can be very critical and give nasty results,
with the trumpet more than with most other instruments IMO.)


If you generate any sound for recording in any smallish room, do so
along a diagonal so that you avoid a slap back.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default ATM 350 discontinued? Prodipe SB21 resilience to Larsen on stage?

wrote:

I've scrolled down to threads started in July 2015 and had no results searc=
hing for C1000S, if you have a link to that thread handy I'd be interested =
to read through it.
By "stung by a wasp" you mean uneven response in some frequency range or...=
?
Redesigned with respect to when or what other model?


The C1000 is one of the worst-sounding microphones I have ever used. It's
not just way too bright, but the brightness is nasty and harsh. A decade or
so ago when this group was very active, C1000-bashing was a popular activity
here.

Back at that time years ago when the C1000 was a very popular microphone, I
asked an actual design engineer at the AES show why they make both the
C451B and the C1000, both with about the same price tag on them, but both
with totally different sounds. I pointed out that the C451B was such a
better sounding microphone that I didn't understand why they even tried to
sell the C1000. The man took a deep breath and tried to think of a polite
way to explain things and said, "The C1000 is specially-voiced for the
American market."

I am not sure if that means Americans want lousy sound or if the American
dealers demand higher profit margins or what, but as an American I don't
think it's very flattering.

Regarding the RE-20:

- Wouldn't the fact that you can move around that much mean that its polar =
pattern is not very directional, maybe not even cardioid, thus making it mo=
re prone to Larsen problems in a live gig? (Well, I reckon that being on a =
fixed stand it is anyway less prone to bad surprises than a mic on the bell=
moving with the musician.)


No, the RE-20 uses a trick so that the frequency response is very much the
same in all directions and at all distances. This makes it possible to move
around a lot... the amplitude may change but the tone does not and that is
very powerful.

By "Larsen" I believe you mean what in English is called "Feedback." Actually
"Feedback" is a terrible name for it... what it should really be called is
"Howling...." the feedback is a precursor to the howling. But people call it
"Feedback" anyway so we are stuck with it.

The support of the AMT mic you mention in the rest of your comment (P800 is=
the trumpet one) might actually permit to plug/unplug the mute without mov=
ing the mic. I've checked YouTube... the few videos I found with that mic g=
ive a nice but rather "thin" sound... I guess with the same support you mig=
ht place it closer to the bell and also very close to the mute. There's ple=
nty of reverb anyway in those videos, not so easy to have a more precise id=
ea of how the mic itself sounds. I'd be happy to try/buy one but I see that=
here in Argentina you can only get AMT mics on demand and the price ends u=
p being 3-4x the price in the USA, the Z1 flute for instance (can't find th=
e P800) is 1338 USD vs. 332, at the current change rate.


They are popular here. I can't say I am a huge fan of them but all the kids
are using them. My experience is that _any_ bell mikes require a lot of
equalization to sound anything like a trumpet.

I searched YouTube and ebay for the Shure SM-11 too, quite interesting, les=
s then half the price of the Proel HCS30... Alas I found no trumpet takes, =
nor sax ones.
It lacks a support suitable for the trumpet, apparently. Is there any suita=
ble third party support out there with good shock absorption? (As for thePr=
oel HCS30, as I wrote befo surprisingly nice sound for the price, but no=
t enough shock absorption to avoid receiving the valves vibrations.)


It was intended as a lapel microphone, back in the days before there were
many good electret lapel mikes. I have used it with small clips but I have
no idea where the clips came from. I have boxes of weird mike clips that
have come with various mikes or people left behind in the studio or at
festivals.

But I see that Shure also makes the WB98H/C, 209 USD on ebay USA, "only" tw=
ice in Argentina and apparently it is available. I searched YouTube, hey Ch=
ris Botti endorses it, with his beautiful sound.
Not clear if the default capsule is "unidirectional (cardioid)", or the RPM=
108 cardioid, or the RPM110 supercardioid, I doubt it comes with more than =
one anyway. Also, reading questions/answers in a local seller's page, it's =
not clear if you can buy the mic and later decide to connect it to a wirele=
ss transmitter, it would seems as it's two different mics, strangely enough=
and unfortunately, well I'll have to find out.


I don't know, but that's totally different than the dynamic mikes. I have
never used one.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Default ATM 350 discontinued? Prodipe SB21 resilience to Larsen on stage?

Peter Larsen wrote:
So when Scott suggests RE20 - I'd suggest MD421 or MD211 - that is for
three reasons: they don't clip, they gently compress and they do not
output troublesome ultrahigh frequencies that stress the mixer inputs
preamp, be it from clipping or from the cymbals.


The way I like to think of this is that they _do_ clip, but when they clip
the effect is inoffensive. Unlike that of most electret condenser designs.

Sadly the MD211 and original MD421 are discontinued today... but they ARE
great sounding microphones for the application even if they are more sensitive
to placement than the RE20. For just the reason Mr. Larson describes.

The SM-11 is in that category too... it's a dynamic microphone that doesn't
break up too much and it does remarkably well in the horn bell. Which is
an advantage if you have to mike in that close.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Ty Ford[_2_] Ty Ford[_2_] is offline
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Default ATM 350 discontinued? Prodipe SB21 resilience to Larsen on stage?

On Thursday, February 1, 2018 at 8:51:41 AM UTC-5, Scott Dorsey wrote:
wrote:

I've scrolled down to threads started in July 2015 and had no results searc=
hing for C1000S, if you have a link to that thread handy I'd be interested =
to read through it.
By "stung by a wasp" you mean uneven response in some frequency range or....=
?
Redesigned with respect to when or what other model?


The C1000 is one of the worst-sounding microphones I have ever used. It's
not just way too bright, but the brightness is nasty and harsh. A decade or
so ago when this group was very active, C1000-bashing was a popular activity
here.


Lemme' say this. I tried the C1000s and agree with the wasp sting comment for recording, BUT (and that a big BUT), I was playing at a singer-songwriter event some years back. When I walked into the venue I noticed the C1000s on acoustic guitar. My knee jerk "Oh NO!" response was quickly stopped as I listened.

Live, coming through the PA, it was not a wasp sting. It sounded fine. So the air and perhaps, compromises of the live sound system took the sting out..

In truth, something similar can be said of the SM57 and SM58. Both can be pretty nasty. I have heard them be nasty within 10-15 feet of a PA stack, but as you get further away, they sound fine.

Regards,

Ty Ford
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Default ATM 350 discontinued? Prodipe SB21 resilience to Larsen on stage?

On 01-02-2018 18:50, Tim Sprout wrote:

On 01-02-2018 06:47, wrote:


Mixing the two tracks is not too critical as the take from far away
lacks
"detail", but it might a good precaution to realign the timing of

the two
tracks to avoid phase distortion, e.g. by delaying the take of the

closest
mic, an impulsive noise at the beginning of the take can be useful.


On 1/31/2018 9:58 PM, Peter Larsen wrote:


No, that is not the trick with the "close + far setup". The trick is
to delay the mic that is 5 feet away "a wee bit" (some milliseconds,
no, it can not be specified as a "textbook example", there are too
many variables) and add reverb.


Peter, explain delaying the far mic, as this would seem to increase the
time difference between the close and far mics, and increase phase
issues. Thanks. Always appreciate your input.


There is no phase issue when the distance between the microphones is
multiple wavelengths because of the time-varying signal. It is very
dangerous to be too close in time because then the combfilter monster is
lurking ....

Also, whatever the context, the far mic supplies a fake first reflection
from an imaginary wall and thus the size of the "pretended ambient room"
is determined by the "pretended distance". Specifically a close pair and
a distant pair is a very good strategy for real guitar, especially if
you have to record it in a living room instead of a hall. But it also
works very well for church organ.

Tim Sprout


Kind regards

Peter Larsen





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Default ATM 350 discontinued? Prodipe SB21 resilience to Larsen on stage?

On 01-02-2018 14:55, Scott Dorsey wrote:

Peter Larsen wrote:
So when Scott suggests RE20 - I'd suggest MD421 or MD211 - that is for
three reasons: they don't clip, they gently compress and they do not
output troublesome ultrahigh frequencies that stress the mixer inputs
preamp, be it from clipping or from the cymbals.


The way I like to think of this is that they _do_ clip, but when they clip
the effect is inoffensive. Unlike that of most electret condenser designs.

Sadly the MD211 and original MD421 are discontinued today... but they ARE
great sounding microphones for the application even if they are more sensitive
to placement than the RE20. For just the reason Mr. Larson describes.


The MD211 - of Tom Jones fame - is an omni, intended for measurement use
and known usable for talkback, one was used as intercom during a mining
distaster recovery in Germany because it fitted into the tube drilled
down to the trapped miners. Since it actually is an omni it can hardly
be more placement sensitive than the RE20 ... O;-) ... as long as it is
close, it is happy. And if you want a jazz genre kick drum, it will make
you happy.

The SM-11 is in that category too... it's a dynamic microphone that doesn't
break up too much and it does remarkably well in the horn bell. Which is
an advantage if you have to mike in that close.


Aha, thanks!

--scott


Kind regards

Peter Larsen




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Default ATM 350 discontinued? Prodipe SB21 resilience to Larsen on stage?

On 2/02/2018 4:58 AM, Ty Ford wrote:


Lemme' say this. I tried the C1000s and agree with the wasp sting comment for recording, BUT (and that a big BUT), I was playing at a singer-songwriter event some years back. When I walked into the venue I noticed the C1000s on acoustic guitar. My knee jerk "Oh NO!" response was quickly stopped as I listened.

Live, coming through the PA, it was not a wasp sting. It sounded fine. So the air and perhaps, compromises of the live sound system took the sting out.


Dull strings on the guitar ?

;- )

geoff
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Default ATM 350 discontinued? Prodipe SB21 resilience to Larsen on stage?

Thanks again, I've noted down all mics mentioned in your answers.



Peter Larsen wrote:
Look carefully at microphone specs, it is not always a good concept to
use a condenser microphone on brass. Some old measurements [...]



Well, a friend, trumpeter, had recommended the C1000 to me after buying one..

I had searched on forums but hadn't found this group.
(((
Actually, when criticizing the batteries-capsule holder of the mic in my first post,
I expected to be flamed here by a lot of fans of that mic and... no, LOL,

Scott Dorsey later even wrote later:
C1000-bashing was a popular activity here.

)))

Well during that research I had found opinions that large diaphragm condensers tend to brighten the trumpet, not small diaphragm ones. After buying the C1000S I did realize that it was anyway much brighter than I expected. I had an SM57, also criticized here I see and the C1000S actually turned out to be rather similar to it, but it seems to give something - I guess some frequencies - that I can't hear with the SM57 (although - and you won't like this - I did like how the SM57 sounded in a club whose old owner, Jorge "Negro" Gonzalez, had bought Allen&Heath as mixer, Denon class A power amp, Nexo active speakers... they were behind the musicians - and the EQ handy for them, probably an important point - yet there wasn't any Larsen/feedback/howling/coupling, the seller had told him there was a system to prevent that but I couldn't say where it was, actually the sound processor in my wish list also does that, I doubt it exists however).

Back to the C1000S: not as rich as a mic I tried in Paris, France, in a studio where they were worshiping it and treating it like it was worth a whole lot of money (I guess it was), but I was concentrated on other things so alas I didn't take note of what that was. I heard the result in a movie theater (short film in 35 mm of their cinema school, I made the music ad honorem = for free, connected by a teacher of mine, I was a student in another school): astonishing realistic timbre (despite the sound guy/student not being a musician and having done something bad which I'm not going to point out here), so yes I understand that in order to have *that* quality level you need another class of mics than the C1000S and a P170 or a Zoom H2n.
(BTW in that studio with that mic they recorded the loud part from far away but the soft and quite part from pretty close and that was the part which most impacted me when listening.)


Interesting the measurements!


So when Scott suggests RE20 - I'd suggest MD421 or MD211 - that is for
three reasons: they don't clip, they gently compress and they do not
output troublesome ultrahigh frequencies that stress the mixer inputs
preamp, be it from clipping or from the cymbals.


I actually remember a gig where I loved the sound and the mic was a dynamic Sennheiser, I can't remember which model however, but it could have been the MD421 by the shape. I see that here they are selling MD421-ii and MD421-2 and MD421-iii (if it's not a mistake), I wonder if those are an "evolution" and if it is towards better or worse.



Yes, close and less close microphone setup is a good idea if recording a
concert hall type instrument in a living room, put the stereo verb on
the distant stereo pair (!).


[and later]

No, that is not the trick with the "close + far setup". The trick is to
delay the mic that is 5 feet away "a wee bit" (some milliseconds, no, it
can not be specified as a "textbook example", there are too many
variables) and add reverb.


Very nice trick when you want to simulate a concert hall, you later explained it for Tim Sprout too, thank you!


By only EQing the C1000S I didn't get to an equally good result.


Sorry, there is no way of saying this that does not come across as
arrogant and blunt combined: if you want to make good recordings use
good microphones.


*LOL* luckily I wrote *I* didn't get to an equally good result [as when mixing with the take from far away].
Ohh maybe it's for the word "good". By writing "A not as good as B" I really strictly meant "A worse than B", not "B good in absolute terms", otherwise I would have pointed out "for the money"... which it actually was anyway, good enough for the money, for the value of the involved equipment, although certainly subject to considerable improvement - also musically - with more time available, let alone with better mics.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJa8eDuGPcg


That sounds great. How was it recorded?

Well I guess I almost gave you a stroke _by_only_mentioning_ the C1000S, P170 and H2n LOL.

However, you hadn't a trumpet in a small room with rather strong reverberation. I listen to other trumpeters in that room almost every day and I *suspect* (literally, meaning that I'm not 100% sure) that even your superb mics might just be receiving and transducing sound that lacks some detail, from far away in *this* situation, although of course they would do a better job than a mono take with a P170 or a stereo take with a Zoom H2n (the latter to be synced to the near take by slightly "warping" it in Ableton Live LOL)


If you generate any sound for recording in any smallish room, do so
along a diagonal so that you avoid a slap back.


Oh thanks, this confirms that what I had kind of figured out by ear with some uncertainty is actually a known and sensible paradigm.







geoff wrote:
You'll find mention in much older threads I'm sure, but the only thread
I'm referring to is experience.

Harsh grainy screechy painful upper mids and treble. Redesigned wrt the
original C1000 (if there was one that wasn't an 'S').


Yes of course you guys here have a lot of experience with plenty of mics and in a whole lot of different situations... that's why I came to ask here




Scott Dorsey wrote:
C451B


noted, thanks


[...] the RE-20 uses a trick so that the frequency response is very much the
same in all directions and at all distances. This makes it possible to move
around a lot... the amplitude may change but the tone does not and that is
very powerful.


Trumpets however are often projecting rather directionally an important part of the sound, and changing the trumpet axis vs. the mic position might produce some important change in tone I suspect. From what you say I get that if the trumpeter would move laterally vs. the mic but the trumpet axis vs mic position is consistent (e.g. right into it or just aside), than the tone would not change, yes that's an interesting feature.


My experience is that _any_ bell mikes require a lot of
equalization to sound anything like a trumpet.


Today I've ended up ordering a Shure Beta 98H/C (XLR-console type, not the Shure-wireless type), I should retire it next Tuesday and try it out in a gig on Wednesday, I'll see how that goes ( twice the USA price :/ ). I have a problem with the sound guy who alas most often is in that club (two other sound engineers pop up instead of him once in a while, and I'm really happy with both of them as well as with most sound engineers in other places, but alas not with that one, too different concept of how a trumpet should sound, plus he doesn't know how to use the console compressor... well instead of just suffer the situation I'm trying to "move", I'm switching to this mic and researching for a portable sound processor with Phantom power, good compressor, EQ, possibly some effects like pitch shift and delay... one of my teachers did so long ago not avoid fighting with sound engineers... unless you move enough business to be able to hire your trusted sound engineer.... important groups I went to see in Paris used to bring in their own sound engineer for the final touch).


It was intended as a lapel microphone, back in the days before there were
many good electret lapel mikes. I have used it with small clips but I have
no idea where the clips came from. I have boxes of weird mike clips that
have come with various mikes or people left behind in the studio or at
festivals.


I see. I have no idea how to build a decent support with enough shock absorption, otherwise I'd be trying out this Proel HCS30 which I bought too quickly, or I'd be wanting to try out a Shure SM-11.

The way I like to think of this is that they _do_ clip, but when they clip
the effect is inoffensive. Unlike that of most electret condenser designs.


The AKG 519 sounds really bad when clipping.

Sadly the MD211 and original MD421 are discontinued today... but they ARE
great sounding microphones for the application even if they are more sensitive
to placement than the RE20. For just the reason Mr. Larson describes.

The SM-11 is in that category too... it's a dynamic microphone that doesn't
break up too much and it does remarkably well in the horn bell. Which is
an advantage if you have to mike in that close.


A pity the support LOL (as I wrote above, I've ordered today the Shure Beta 98H/C, twice the USA price, and almost 4x the EU price of the SM-11).


Best regards!
Nicola
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Default ATM 350 discontinued? Prodipe SB21 resilience to Larsen on stage?

not avoid fighting with sound engineers = to avoid fighting with sound engineers
(sorry)
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Default ATM 350 discontinued? Prodipe SB21 resilience to Larsen on stage?

On 02-02-2018 06:47, wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJa8eDuGPcg

That sounds great. How was it recorded?


The visible pair of small membrane condensers on a stick and mastered
with youtube and flatscreen televisions in mind.

Nicola


Kind regards

Peter Larsen




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Default ATM 350 discontinued? Prodipe SB21 resilience to Larsen on stage?

On 7/02/2018 6:00 AM, Peter Larsen wrote:
On 02-02-2018 06:47, wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJa8eDuGPcg

That sounds great. How was it recorded?


The visible pair of small membrane condensers on a stick and mastered
with youtube and flatscreen televisions in mind.

Nicola


Â*Â* Kind regards

Â*Â* Peter Larsen



I could see the click-track bleeding through ;-)

geoff
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Default ATM 350 discontinued? Prodipe SB21 resilience to Larsen on stage?


On February 6th, Peter Larsen wrote:

The visible pair of small membrane condensers on a stick and
mastered with youtube and flatscreen televisions in mind.


Did you build those membrane condenser mics yourself?!?!



How about 'updated' ? ATM350A

Check this , new promo out today.

http://www.audio-technica.com/email-..._absolute.html


Thanks, Ty Ford had pointed me to the ATM350A in his post of January 31st, which I understood was a replacement, an upgrade, of the discontinued ATM350.
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Default ATM 350 discontinued? Prodipe SB21 resilience to Larsen on stage?

Sorry I forgot to quote that Geoff what the one who wrote:

How about 'updated' ? ATM350
[...]


I should subscribe to the group I guess, so I would be able to edit posts and have the platform quote for me.
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Default ATM 350 discontinued? Prodipe SB21 resilience to Larsen on stage?

On March 2nd 2018 John Williamson wrote:

You seem to be posting on usenet via Google Groups. If you get a free
news server account from one of the many suppliers and a newsreader
program for your computer, the world is your oyster. No subscription to
the group is necessary, as it is not moderated. The interface is better
than Google Groups, too.


Thank you. Could you please suggest a few options for a viable free news server account?
(I found a client for this Linux Ubuntu PC, then searched for a server but couldn't pinpoint a viable working option.)


On March 3rd 2018 Peter Larsen wrote:

It has become a superstition that the equipment makes the recording. It
doesn't. The operator does.


Yet, on February 1st 2018 Peter Larsen had written:

if you want to make good recordings use good microphones


Well, I understand that a good operator can get better results than a bad one with any equipment, and can get better results with a better equipment than with a worse one

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Default ATM 350 discontinued? Prodipe SB21 resilience to Larsen on stage?

On 05/04/2018 05:15, wrote:
On March 2nd 2018 John Williamson wrote:

You seem to be posting on usenet via Google Groups. If you get a free
news server account from one of the many suppliers and a newsreader
program for your computer, the world is your oyster. No subscription to
the group is necessary, as it is not moderated. The interface is better
than Google Groups, too.


Thank you. Could you please suggest a few options for a viable free news server account?
(I found a client for this Linux Ubuntu PC, then searched for a server but couldn't pinpoint a viable working option.)

A popular one is Eternal September, which is run on a "pay what you
want" basis. It's a server in a guy's workshop, with a decent
connection, run more or less as a hobby. It goes down from time to time,
but you get what you pay for.

https://www.eternal-september.org/

I also have a dormant account with news,tornevall.net, but I've not
logged in for a long time now, so it may be dead.

There are a few others listed here.

https://greycoder.com/best-free-usenet-servers/

I pay news.individual.net (That's the entire address) 10 Euros a year
for a fast and very reliable service, but if you aren't German, it may
not be possible to open a new account due to money laundering rules.
It's run by the Freie Universtiaet Berlin.


--
Tciao for Now!

John.
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Default ATM 350 discontinued? Prodipe SB21 resilience to Larsen on stage?

On 04/05/2018 04:00 AM, John Williamson wrote:
On 05/04/2018 05:15, wrote:
On March 2nd 2018 John Williamson wrote:

You seem to be posting on usenet via Google Groups. If you get a free
news server account [...]

(I found a client for this Linux Ubuntu PC, then searched for a server
but couldn't pinpoint a viable working option.)

A popular one is Eternal September [...]


Thank you!

Here I am...

(((

.... through Mozilla Thunderbird on Linux Ubuntu, and eternal-september
(it took me a while to find out that their reader80 server is the one
which allows me to actually see groups and subscribe...

As for the client... I had quickly and superficially tried out sabnzbd
after searching best usenet reader for Linux and reading some blog about
it, but it appeared to be more a binaries grabber requiring some
peculiar file format as input, so I tried trn4 and tin... but I dare say
the docs writers and interface programmers should get some guy like me
who never used their software, and see which basic informations are not
so evident.

Then I remembered that almost 15 years ago I used to access the usenet
through some GUI client, and voilĂ* Thunderbird.

)))


The little preamp/compressor, ART TUBE MP/C, has been working very fine
so far for what I need.

In a live situation, however, I'd prefer a two-pole LOW CUT with corner
at 100 Hz (which would be I think -6 dB @ 100 Hz and -12 dB/octave), as
in the few Allen & Heath mixers I've seen so far, instead of its low cut
providing -3 dB @ 70 Hz, 6dB/Octave. But I had no problem with it
either, and adding the 100 Hz one on the Allen & Heath mixer was not
indispensable.

ART support never answered, maybe my long mail reporting docs
discrepancies and suggesting modifications to them, with colors
highlighting key text, frightened them.

So I still don't know if I could connect the balanced
transformer-isolated ouput of this preamp to a mixing console with
Phantom enabled, or not.

Maybe I could prepare a modified XLR3 cable where the plug which goes
into the preamp output has pin 1 interrupted, which would interrupt the
Phantom circuit (and the ground-to-ground connection), while the audio
signal circuit uses pins 2 and 3, and see what happens.

Anyways, I'd generally pass through another piece of gear which gives me
EQ and Lexicon reverb (so the sound guy can just EQ for the specific
ambient), and its balanced output is designed to be Phantom compatible.
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Default ATM 350 discontinued? Prodipe SB21 resilience to Larsen on stage?

On 08/04/2018 02:04, Nicola B. Bernardelli wrote:

Then I remembered that almost 15 years ago I used to access the usenet
through some GUI client, and voilĂ* Thunderbird.

I also use Thunderbird, but if I were using another e-mail program, then
I'd use Pan as a newsreader, as it has much more sophisticated filtering
rules, and is easy to use either with or without a mouse.

Both are available on all versions of Linux and Windows, but not for
Apple systems.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.


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Default ATM 350 discontinued? Prodipe SB21 resilience to Larsen onstage?

On Sun, 08 Apr 2018 07:35:52 +0100, John Williamson wrote:

On 08/04/2018 02:04, Nicola B. Bernardelli wrote:

Then I remembered that almost 15 years ago I used to access the usenet
through some GUI client, and voilĂ* Thunderbird.

I also use Thunderbird, but if I were using another e-mail program, then
I'd use Pan as a newsreader, as it has much more sophisticated filtering
rules, and is easy to use either with or without a mouse.

Both are available on all versions of Linux and Windows, but not for
Apple systems.


Here I am trying out Pan... saw some of the filters... thank you!


Actually, I'm not using Thunderbird for mail, I've been using web based
mail during the past 13+ years

(I have tons of mails in a crappy Apple portable computer which let me
down, not worth repairing, Apple makes a lot of fault prone hardware
according to my personal and professional experience, and to what I read
here and there over the web... but I wouldn't want to start a fans war
here... anyway, I'm glad I foresaw that, after seeing their top top
machines full of problems at work, and switched to web based mail.)


Thunderbird proposed to create a free e-mail account on the first
startup, and I was/am very tempted... I have by now a pretty bad opinion
of Google, Yahoo and Microsoft (too, besides Apple LOL, but for different
reasons).
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