"Laurence Payne" wrote in message
...
Just burnt a CD with 1k tone at 100%, then a little under. Computer
plays it OK. Sony CD player (into the same playback system) can't
cope with the 100% tone. Sounds like vinyl mistracking.

Took it next door to the crappy set-top DVD player. TV cabinet
shakes a bit with the 1k tone, but it's clean.

I guess the culprit has to be the CD player.



** Or the following amplifer input stage is overloading.




............... Phil

"Arny Krueger" ...
"Laurence Payne"

No, I think you have a player problem.


** Practically zero chance that is the case.


So what is the problem?

Probably a player problem.

So it's what Scott said? :-)

(Putting fireproof suit on)

Yup!

;-)


** This public fellatio with the arch audiophool Dorsey has to cease Arny.

People will think you have lost your interest in objectivity.




............. Phil

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:00:45 +1100, "Phil Allison"
wrote:

I guess the culprit has to be the CD player.



** Or the following amplifer input stage is overloading.

It's now a point of honour with you that it ISN'T the CD player's
fault, I take it? :-)

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

In article writes:

I wonder if there's any adjustment possible. This particular DC
player has always sounded "louder" than the original material.
Almost as if Sony thought it would sound more impressive if the signal
ran into a bit of limiting.

If that's the case, I wonder if it simply has a higher output for a
given digital level. When you play your full scale test CD through it,
even if it doesn't clip at its output (and it might, a little), it
might be putting out a hot enough signal so that it's clipping the
next thing in the chain.

Got an oscilloscope? There are a couple of freeware programs that will
make your computer with sound card work enough like one so that you
can look at clipping - as long as the level coming out of the CD
player doesn't clip the input of your sound card.

Sometimes you just need test equipment that's better than what you're
trying to test.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 06:01:14 GMT, "Paul Stamler" wrote:

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Bob wrote:

I made a test CD using computer software (CEP) to generate sine
waveforms to
test a home audio system... (the equipment you guys record for! ) BUT it
sounded
very harsh... so I changed the levels down to -3db, and then to -6db, and
now it
sounds better...

Isn't that weird?

I bet a nickel that if you look at the output with a scope, you will find
that your CD player has a linearity problem slightly below 0dBFS. This is
sadly very common with consumer players.

You want to really find nonlinearity problems in DACs...generate three tones
in CEP, at 9.6kHz, 19kHz and 19.5kHz, each at (say) -1dBFS,

WOW!! wouldn't that be an unfair test of the low pass filters?? I can imagine
the mess recording full power at 19k and 19.5k...

then mix them
down at equal levels so the composite wave totals -0.1dBFS. Play that back
through your DAC, attenuate a few dB, and record the attenuated result into
a pro-quality sound card. You'll be surprised how much gunk a lot of DACs
put out.

For DACs, this seems to be a real torture test. Oh, it's a torture test for
tweeters too, so *don't* play it back through your speakers!

Peace,
Paul

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:16:09 -0500, "Arny Krueger" wrote:

"siguy" wrote in message
roups.com

digital can never be perfect, long live the acetate ripping
needle!!!!!

Yes, I regret to admit that I just spent a lot of my winter vacation camping
in the Anza-Barrago (California) and Baja Mexico (Erindera) deserts and
failed to bring back any cactus needles.


If you drop in at my Dads, he'll proudly show you his cactus needle sharpener
kit!!

I'm still looking for a 78 cartridge so I can record his collection of old
records...

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:31:21 +0000, Laurence Payne
wrote:

Just burnt a CD with 1k tone at 100%, then a little under. Computer
plays it OK. Sony CD player (into the same playback system) can't
cope with the 100% tone. Sounds like vinyl mistracking.

Took it next door to the crappy set-top DVD player. TV cabinet
shakes a bit with the 1k tone, but it's clean.

I guess the culprit has to be the CD player.

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

I'm thinking now that I screwed up (or really CEP screwed up!!) the CD...

I ripped a CD of the soundtrack of a movie to look at a waveform that sounded
very 'loud' to me - wanted to compare, and it has a horrid looking waveform that
seems to go up to max deviation all the time, but it doesn't sound clipped at
all, so I think my Technics CD player is doing a good job... also tried the
discs on a Toshiba DVD player...

It's only the CD I made that sounds bad - CEP does make bad waves for me
sometimes... I just had to re-do a movie I edited because a sound track I did
from CEP was totally corrupted and I didn't know it... don't know why either...
now I do everything twice and don't close CEP until I've tested the wave in
WInamp!

I'll try it all again...

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 20:52:27 -0500, Bob wrote:

I'm still looking for a 78 cartridge so I can record his collection of old
records...

Maybe check with Mike (IIRC) at:

http://www.esotericsound.com/

who's make a solid gig out of helping folks do just that.

Good transfering,

Chris Hornbeck
"Happiness isn't something you experience; it's something you remember."
-Oscar Levant

"Laurence Payne"
"Phil Allison"


I guess the culprit has to be the CD player.


** Or the following amplifier input stage is overloading.

It's now a point of honour with you that it ISN'T the CD player's
fault, I take it? :-)



** Go read some CD player specs and see that the published THD figure
refers to 0 dB or 2 volt rms. No ( non faulty) CD player will have trouble
playing a full level ( 0 dB) sine wave tone without audible distortion.

Arny and Dorsey are full of it.




.................. Phil

"Bob" wrote in message

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 06:01:14 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
wrote:

You want to really find nonlinearity problems in DACs...generate
three tones in CEP, at 9.6kHz, 19kHz and 19.5kHz, each at (say)
-1dBFS,

WOW!! wouldn't that be an unfair test of the low pass filters?? I
can imagine the mess recording full power at 19k and 19.5k...

The world is full of converters that will handle this signal, no sweat.

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:06:41 -0500, "Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Bob" wrote in message

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 06:01:14 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
wrote:

You want to really find nonlinearity problems in DACs...generate
three tones in CEP, at 9.6kHz, 19kHz and 19.5kHz, each at (say)
-1dBFS,

WOW!! wouldn't that be an unfair test of the low pass filters?? I
can imagine the mess recording full power at 19k and 19.5k...

The world is full of converters that will handle this signal, no sweat.


I guess I'll have to try it! I'll call it the "Krueger" test!

"Bob" wrote in message
...
You want to really find nonlinearity problems in DACs...generate three
tones
in CEP, at 9.6kHz, 19kHz and 19.5kHz, each at (say) -1dBFS,

WOW!! wouldn't that be an unfair test of the low pass filters?? I can
imagine
the mess recording full power at 19k and 19.5k...

Yeah, but I can also imagine a hot, overcompressed cymbal crash exciting
precisely this sort of distortion.

Peace,
Paul

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Bob" wrote in message

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 06:01:14 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
wrote:

You want to really find nonlinearity problems in DACs...generate
three tones in CEP, at 9.6kHz, 19kHz and 19.5kHz, each at (say)
-1dBFS,

WOW!! wouldn't that be an unfair test of the low pass filters?? I
can imagine the mess recording full power at 19k and 19.5k...

The world is full of converters that will handle this signal, no sweat.

Right -- plus a few that can't. Makes you wonder.

Peace,
Paul

"Bob" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:06:41 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Bob" wrote in message

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 06:01:14 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
wrote:

You want to really find nonlinearity problems in DACs...generate
three tones in CEP, at 9.6kHz, 19kHz and 19.5kHz, each at (say)
-1dBFS,

WOW!! wouldn't that be an unfair test of the low pass filters?? I
can imagine the mess recording full power at 19k and 19.5k...

The world is full of converters that will handle this signal, no sweat.

I guess I'll have to try it! I'll call it the "Krueger" test!

Ahem. May I point out that I proposed it up above? Not that it's
particularly new; a similar test was suggested in an article in Audio
Amateur some fifteen years ago. It's very useful for sleuthing out problems
in DACs, ADCs and, for that matter, opamps.

Peace,
Paul

"Paul Stamler"

WOW!! wouldn't that be an unfair test of the low pass filters?? I can
imagine the mess recording full power at 19k and 19.5k...

Yeah, but I can also imagine a hot, overcompressed cymbal crash exciting
precisely this sort of distortion.



** Folk can imagine any damn thing.

Demonstrating that it exists is far more important.

CD recordings of music do not contain full levels at 19 kHz - even -20dB
at that frequency would be a rarity.





................. Phil

"Bob" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:16:09 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"siguy" wrote in message
roups.com

digital can never be perfect, long live the acetate ripping
needle!!!!!

Yes, I regret to admit that I just spent a lot of my winter vacation
camping
in the Anza-Barrago (California) and Baja Mexico (Erindera) deserts and
failed to bring back any cactus needles.


If you drop in at my Dads, he'll proudly show you his cactus needle
sharpener
kit!!

I'm still looking for a 78 cartridge so I can record his collection of old
records...

Grado makes one, and many remastering engineers (including the guys at
Smithsonian/Folkways) use a Stanton 500 with various styli.

Peace,
Paul

Bob wrote:

I'm still looking for a 78 cartridge so I can record his collection of old
records...

The Grado DJ-100 is probably a good start. It is inexpensive and has a
2.7 mil stylus available.

If you have to play worn records, or pre-electric records, or some records
from smaller labels, or you really care about sound quality, you will do a
lot better to use a cartridge with a wide variety of different stylus sizes.
But to start out with, a 2.7 mil one is an okay compromise and won't ruin
any records.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

In article writes:

I'm thinking now that I screwed up (or really CEP screwed up!!) the CD...

I ripped a CD of the soundtrack of a movie to look at a waveform that sounded
very 'loud' to me - wanted to compare, and it has a horrid looking waveform
that
seems to go up to max deviation all the time, but it doesn't sound clipped at
all, so I think my Technics CD player is doing a good job... also tried the
discs on a Toshiba DVD player...

It's only the CD I made that sounds bad - CEP does make bad waves for me
sometimes...

Well, rip that CD and look at the waveform in CEP. That should tell
you whether it's OK or not.

I suspect that there are a couple of significant differences between
the movie soundtrack CD and your test CD that are throwing off your
listening tests.

First, you're hearing the distortion in one in the context of music,
and the other in the context of a pure tone.

Second, the commercial CD may have peaks that are very close to full
scale, but if you look closely enough, are just a hair below - enough
so that the filter in the D/A converter of your CD player doesn't get
fooled. It's been "mastered" to be as close to immoral as possible
without actually getting there.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

"Bob" wrote in message

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:06:41 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Bob" wrote in message

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 06:01:14 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
wrote:

You want to really find nonlinearity problems in DACs...generate
three tones in CEP, at 9.6kHz, 19kHz and 19.5kHz, each at (say)
-1dBFS,

WOW!! wouldn't that be an unfair test of the low pass filters?? I
can imagine the mess recording full power at 19k and 19.5k...

The world is full of converters that will handle this signal, no
sweat.


I guess I'll have to try it! I'll call it the "Krueger" test!

The Krueger test is 18 KHz and 20 KHz mixed 1:1 and with peak level 1 dB
below FS. Analysis is a full-band FFT analysis with at least 65K points.
Nonlinear distortion performance can be estimated based on the peak level of
the magnitude of the largest spurious response, but is exactly measured by
the geometric sum of all spurious responses.

Of course, this is not something I made up or invented, just something I
use. So putting my name on it grants me credit that I do not deserve. But,
I'll take it anyway! ;-)

"Paul Stamler" wrote in message

"Bob" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:06:41 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Bob" wrote in message

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 06:01:14 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
wrote:

You want to really find nonlinearity problems in DACs...generate
three tones in CEP, at 9.6kHz, 19kHz and 19.5kHz, each at (say)
-1dBFS,

WOW!! wouldn't that be an unfair test of the low pass filters?? I
can imagine the mess recording full power at 19k and 19.5k...

The world is full of converters that will handle this signal, no
sweat.

I guess I'll have to try it! I'll call it the "Krueger" test!

Ahem. May I point out that I proposed it up above? Not that it's
particularly new; a similar test was suggested in an article in Audio
Amateur some fifteen years ago. It's very useful for sleuthing out
problems in DACs, ADCs and, for that matter, opamps.

Paul, it seems like a fine test, and I'm happy to see you get all the
credit.

"Paul Stamler" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Bob" wrote in message

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 06:01:14 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
wrote:

You want to really find nonlinearity problems in DACs...generate
three tones in CEP, at 9.6kHz, 19kHz and 19.5kHz, each at (say)
-1dBFS,

WOW!! wouldn't that be an unfair test of the low pass filters?? I
can imagine the mess recording full power at 19k and 19.5k...

The world is full of converters that will handle this signal, no
sweat.

Right -- plus a few that can't.

Agreed.

Makes you wonder.

Not really. There are always people who want to shave every margin that
might be safely shaved, and then a few more.

"Phil Allison" wrote in message

"Paul Stamler"

WOW!! wouldn't that be an unfair test of the low pass filters?? I
can
imagine the mess recording full power at 19k and 19.5k...

Yeah, but I can also imagine a hot, overcompressed cymbal crash
exciting precisely this sort of distortion.

** Folk can imagine any damn thing.

Bluster aside, keys jangling are generally a far more challenging test than
mere cymbals, even really hot cymbals with the bead chain added.

Demonstrating that it exists is far more important.

Agreed.

CD recordings of music do not contain full levels at 19 kHz - even
-20dB at that frequency would be a rarity.

Agreed. The keys jangling is the toughest reasonable worst case test (i.e.,
based on a natural sound) that I've been able to find and it stops well
short of FS at 20 KHz. If you want to tweak up a keys jangling signal even
more, brick wall high pass it at about 6 KHz. This creates a nice dead zone
at 4 KHz for spurious responses to fall into, and excite the ear around its
most sensitive point.

Arny Krueger wrote:



Not really. There are always people who want to shave every margin that
might be safely shaved, and then a few more.


I hate it when they do that to bridges and buildings.

"S O'Neill" wrote in message


Arny Krueger wrote:

Not really. There are always people who want to shave every margin
that might be safely shaved, and then a few more.

I hate it when they do that to bridges and buildings.

Particularly if you are standing in, on or under them. Ditto for airplanes.

Arny Krueger wrote:
"S O'Neill" wrote in message



Arny Krueger wrote:


Not really. There are always people who want to shave every margin
that might be safely shaved, and then a few more.


I hate it when they do that to bridges and buildings.


Particularly if you are standing in, on or under them. Ditto for airplanes.


And especially Fords.

"Mark" wrote in message
Some designers may not be aware of this and
design the analog section for 5vp-p

Some 'desiigner' !

geoff

Hi again:

Okay, my mental block just went away with some help from Google. The
9.6kHz/19kHz/19.5kHz test was inspired by the work of Robert Cordell. He
used 9kHz, 10.05kHz and 20kHz, to similar effect.

So rather than the Krueger or Stamler test, if the three-tone test's gonna
have someone's name attached, it should be Cordell's.

Peace,
Paul

"David Satz" wrote in message
ups.com...
Paul, I'm not sure of anything either (not having the player or the
waveform here in front of me) but I certainly have had similar
experiences. There used to be a highly-regarded brand of outboard DAC
called "Audio Alchemy" that was effusively recommended by Stereophile
and all the other magazines; after all, every audiophile knows that
separates always sound better than combined components, right?

Well, a few years ago I took one of those DACs and fed it a simple
midrange sine wave at about 1 dB below full scale (via its S-P/DIF
input), and the clipping was easily audible. If I recall correctly,
the audible distortion on sine waves began 1 - 2 dB lower than that.

You're certainly right that there can be clipping (sometimes quite
severe) in digital filters--but with such a simple waveform, I'd
consider the problem somewhat more likely to be on the analog side.
Anyway, most of this "free diagnosis over the Web" stuff is worth about
what you pay for it ...

For some digiphobes all it needs is one dodgy DAC to be enough to damn the
whole genre.


geoff

"David Satz" wrote in message
ups.com

Paul, I'm not sure of anything either (not having the player or the
waveform here in front of me) but I certainly have had similar
experiences. There used to be a highly-regarded brand of outboard DAC
called "Audio Alchemy" that was effusively recommended by Stereophile
and all the other magazines; after all, every audiophile knows that
separates always sound better than combined components, right?

Well, a few years ago I took one of those DACs and fed it a simple
midrange sine wave at about 1 dB below full scale (via its S-P/DIF
input), and the clipping was easily audible. If I recall correctly,
the audible distortion on sine waves began 1 - 2 dB lower than that.

You might find this article relevant and interesting:

http://www.audioasylum.com/images/DITBMOD.pdf

....particularly the fourth paragraph. I'd quote it, but Acrobat doesn't want
to cut/paste the text.

On 12 Jan 2005 09:25:40 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

Bob wrote:

I'm still looking for a 78 cartridge so I can record his collection of old
records...

The Grado DJ-100 is probably a good start. It is inexpensive and has a
2.7 mil stylus available.

If you have to play worn records, or pre-electric records, or some records
from smaller labels, or you really care about sound quality, you will do a
lot better to use a cartridge with a wide variety of different stylus sizes.
But to start out with, a 2.7 mil one is an okay compromise and won't ruin
any records.
--scott

OK - thanks Scott.

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:04:58 -0500, "Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Bob" wrote in message

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:06:41 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Bob" wrote in message

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 06:01:14 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
wrote:

You want to really find nonlinearity problems in DACs...generate
three tones in CEP, at 9.6kHz, 19kHz and 19.5kHz, each at (say)
-1dBFS,

WOW!! wouldn't that be an unfair test of the low pass filters?? I
can imagine the mess recording full power at 19k and 19.5k...

The world is full of converters that will handle this signal, no
sweat.


I guess I'll have to try it! I'll call it the "Krueger" test!

The Krueger test is 18 KHz and 20 KHz mixed 1:1 and with peak level 1 dB
below FS. Analysis is a full-band FFT analysis with at least 65K points.
Nonlinear distortion performance can be estimated based on the peak level of
the magnitude of the largest spurious response, but is exactly measured by
the geometric sum of all spurious responses.

Of course, this is not something I made up or invented, just something I
use. So putting my name on it grants me credit that I do not deserve. But,
I'll take it anyway! ;-)


I'll try to incorporate these on my next test CD!

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 07:07:11 GMT, "Paul Stamler" wrote:


"Bob" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:06:41 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Bob" wrote in message

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 06:01:14 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
wrote:

You want to really find nonlinearity problems in DACs...generate
three tones in CEP, at 9.6kHz, 19kHz and 19.5kHz, each at (say)
-1dBFS,

WOW!! wouldn't that be an unfair test of the low pass filters?? I
can imagine the mess recording full power at 19k and 19.5k...

The world is full of converters that will handle this signal, no sweat.

I guess I'll have to try it! I'll call it the "Krueger" test!

Ahem. May I point out that I proposed it up above? Not that it's
particularly new; a similar test was suggested in an article in Audio
Amateur some fifteen years ago. It's very useful for sleuthing out problems
in DACs, ADCs and, for that matter, opamps.

Peace,
Paul


OK - now we have the Stamler Test as well! My next CD will be full of tests!

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:02:55 GMT, "Paul Stamler" wrote:

Hi again:

Okay, my mental block just went away with some help from Google. The
9.6kHz/19kHz/19.5kHz test was inspired by the work of Robert Cordell. He
used 9kHz, 10.05kHz and 20kHz, to similar effect.

So rather than the Krueger or Stamler test, if the three-tone test's gonna
have someone's name attached, it should be Cordell's.

Peace,
Paul


.... let me write this down...

"Bob" wrote in message

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:04:58 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Bob" wrote in message

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:06:41 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Bob" wrote in message

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 06:01:14 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
wrote:

You want to really find nonlinearity problems in DACs...generate
three tones in CEP, at 9.6kHz, 19kHz and 19.5kHz, each at (say)
-1dBFS,

WOW!! wouldn't that be an unfair test of the low pass filters??
I can imagine the mess recording full power at 19k and 19.5k...

The world is full of converters that will handle this signal, no
sweat.


I guess I'll have to try it! I'll call it the "Krueger" test!

The Krueger test is 18 KHz and 20 KHz mixed 1:1 and with peak level
1 dB below FS. Analysis is a full-band FFT analysis with at least
65K points. Nonlinear distortion performance can be estimated based
on the peak level of the magnitude of the largest spurious response,
but is exactly measured by the geometric sum of all spurious
responses.

Of course, this is not something I made up or invented, just
something I use. So putting my name on it grants me credit that I do
not deserve. But, I'll take it anyway! ;-)


I'll try to incorporate these on my next test CD!

Enjoy!

You might want to check out this program:

http://audio.rightmark.org/downloads/rmaa54.exe

You can use it to generate a .wav file that you can burn onto a CD. Play it
back into a computer with a sound card, record it and then analyze the new
wav file. You can also use it to test your sound card by looping the input
to the output with a jumper. You can interpose a piece of audio gear between
the input and output of your sound card and analyze it.

"Paul Stamler" wrote in message

Hi again:

Okay, my mental block just went away with some help from Google. The
9.6kHz/19kHz/19.5kHz test was inspired by the work of Robert Cordell.
He used 9kHz, 10.05kHz and 20kHz, to similar effect.

So rather than the Krueger or Stamler test, if the three-tone test's
gonna have someone's name attached, it should be Cordell's.

I'm not sure about that. I think there is quite a bit of prior art.

On 12 Jan 2005 09:50:45 -0500, (Mike Rivers) wrote:


In article writes:

I'm thinking now that I screwed up (or really CEP screwed up!!) the CD...

I ripped a CD of the soundtrack of a movie to look at a waveform that sounded
very 'loud' to me - wanted to compare, and it has a horrid looking waveform
that
seems to go up to max deviation all the time, but it doesn't sound clipped at
all, so I think my Technics CD player is doing a good job... also tried the
discs on a Toshiba DVD player...

It's only the CD I made that sounds bad - CEP does make bad waves for me
sometimes...

Well, rip that CD and look at the waveform in CEP. That should tell
you whether it's OK or not.

Unfortunately, I tossed it... but I will try to make another... maybe -1 or 2
db. max. Plus maybe it's a good idea to include -20 as well.

I suspect that there are a couple of significant differences between
the movie soundtrack CD and your test CD that are throwing off your
listening tests.

First, you're hearing the distortion in one in the context of music,
and the other in the context of a pure tone.

Second, the commercial CD may have peaks that are very close to full
scale, but if you look closely enough, are just a hair below - enough
so that the filter in the D/A converter of your CD player doesn't get
fooled. It's been "mastered" to be as close to immoral as possible
without actually getting there.

The waveform of that clip ( City of Angels / Uninvited / Alanis Morisette ) is
so horrendous looking it scared me! It looks totally peaked out - but it sounds
ok - weird!

"Bob" wrote in message


I wonder what the psycho-acoustic differences are between jingly keys
and an expensive Zildjian cymbal or even a good tambourine?

Cymbals are easy compared to keys.

Maybe the key test is different because it already sounds bad and not
musical?

Well, if you look at a spectrogram, the keys have more high frequency
content.

Why does the modified white noise from a good cymbal sound good?

Real world cymbals aren't modified white noise.

My 20" Z. cymbal puts out frequencies from the low bass all the way
up to who knows what... anybody ever analyze this stuff...? Some
kind of comb filter maybe?

Sure its been analyzed. Thats one reason why I'm making specific technical
claims about it.

Maybe I should record my Zildjian for my test CD! (Hope my SM82's are up
to that!)

The tougher test is to just pull your keys out of your pocket and jangle
away!

"Bob" wrote in message


The waveform of that clip ( City of Angels / Uninvited / Alanis
Morisette ) is so horrendous looking it scared me! It looks totally
peaked out - but it sounds ok - weird!

Not weird. Making heavily clipped music that still sorta sounds like music
is an art unto itself.

In article writes:

I wonder what the psycho-acoustic differences are between jingly keys and an
expensive Zildjian cymbal or even a good tambourine?

Maybe the key test is different because it already sounds bad and not musical?

Jangling keys don't sound bad. Or maybe you've been listening to too
much industrial music and think they sound like bad cymbals. g

There are some psych-acoustic advantages of evaluating a microphone on
a non-musical sound (David Josephson said he has used water boiling in a
teakettle) because you don't get distracted listening for things like
"warm vocal" or "open and airy" that we apply to music. You can listen
for how the microphone changes the source without being concerned with
how the miked source sounds in context.

Why does the modified white noise from a good cymbal sound good?

For the same reason why the modified white noise from a saxophone or a
synthesizer or any other musical instrument sounds good (if it sounds
good at all). It is "modified" in ways that emphasize musically
appealing frequencies.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

The waveform of that clip ( City of Angels / Uninvited / Alanis Morisette ) is
so horrendous looking it scared me! It looks totally peaked out - but it sounds
ok - weird!

No, it sounds dreadful, but you just don't have a reference so you
don't konw how much different from the original recording the CD
sounds.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo