Greg, I worked for a guy who owns a small stereo shop in Alabama. Truth
be told, it was always ultimately him who decided what kind of deal to
give people and he got a LOT of return business this way (the shop over
in LaGrange, Georgia, carrying most JL and was REALLY high priced).

Of course, we sold a lot of generic brands (most people wanted CHEAP
CHEAP!). But definitely *he knew how to help out local business people
because they'd help him out too * as well as give breaks to *return
customers*. I learned a lot from that.

So I'm saying I totally understand your anger. I started buying new
equipment from eBay when I found out that retail people didn't want my
business and especially after I found out I could easily save $100-200
per item, with only a few minor problems.

More power to you! The market will ultimately decide who wins. If
you're not treated right, take your money elsewhere-the world needs
less ****y store owners.

I respect a quality stereo shop, but sticking it to you isn't really
necessary.
Maybe somebody will try to be a *little* more reasonable...it really
matters who you deal with...


Happy eBayer in Georgia.
Marty


--
MartyMcLeod
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I have a 87 Corvette with the Bose radio in it and i am wanting to
rip it out and put in something that sounds better and has more
features than the Bose unit. I have been looking at JL audio speakers
to go in it, the VR525CSI or VR600CSI for the front and VR600CXI for
the rear and 2 10W3v2 subs with a JBL GTO655.6.11 amp to run the
systems.

I am a car guy and i work on car for a living and i own my own shop,
our parts mark up is mostly %15-%20, i can get theses speakers and the
amp online for about 1/2 of what i can get i can get them for
locally, i even offered several shops 30% + what ever the shipping was
so i could buy them locally. i had no takers on this.

I have been here at this location for almost 15 years working on
mostly European stuff and most of our business come from referrals
from other shops and have helped one of theses local car audio shops
out with problems they have had with code issues on a couple of cars
for no charge!! and i have bought my last two systems from them at
FULL retail!! I really do not want some one else other than myself or
the guys that work for me doing anything that requires any type of
wiring or tear down on this Corvette.

Am i missing something here other than greed? why the hell should i
pay 100% + mark up on this stuff just so i can buy it locally and have
a warranty of questionable usefulness?

about the only thing i need help on is setting up the front and rear
speakers in the old Bose enclosures and fine tuning the setup which is
the reason i wanted to buy the stuff here in Atlanta.

Sorry for ranting, but i do not see how these shops stay in business
charging double for the SAME product that i can buy elsewhere.

Angry in Georgia. Greg Nettles

Sorry for ranting, but i do not see how these shops stay in business
charging double for the SAME product that i can buy elsewhere.

Angry in Georgia. Greg Nettles

I always purchase higher dollar components on the web, then just pay for
installation locally. My last system, I even designed the boxes and just
paid for the carpentry work. I know I'm no good with 1" MDF myself. All
shops I've been to have had no problems doing intsalls with new or even used
components purchased elsewhere.
Yes, there is a pretty good markup at local shops, but there not selling
stuff every 10 seconds like a grocery store or some other high volume store
where a 1.5-3% markup means good profits. Everybody's gotta eat!

i understand that everyone has to eat, but what i can figure out is
that they would rather lose a sale and make 30% + plus shipping and it
is not 1.5-3% and lose a customer, who buy the way has sent them a
lot of business over the years.

i have came up with a design for the sub enclosure that i am going to
build, i will send pics of it after i am done if any one is
interested.
On Thu, 12 May 2005 14:21:29 GMT, "SniffinPopRocks"
wrote:



Sorry for ranting, but i do not see how these shops stay in business
charging double for the SAME product that i can buy elsewhere.

Angry in Georgia. Greg Nettles

I always purchase higher dollar components on the web, then just pay for
installation locally. My last system, I even designed the boxes and just
paid for the carpentry work. I know I'm no good with 1" MDF myself. All
shops I've been to have had no problems doing intsalls with new or even used
components purchased elsewhere.
Yes, there is a pretty good markup at local shops, but there not selling
stuff every 10 seconds like a grocery store or some other high volume store
where a 1.5-3% markup means good profits. Everybody's gotta eat!

Greed?
Shops drop outa biz like flies every year, its tough to make
any money at all in the car audio biz... I can tell ya cause I
been in the biz more then 30 years...

I dont know of any shops that have a GREED problem.
If car audio shops could get by with greed, there would be
alot more zillionaire shop owners and not so many going
belly up every year...

Trust me, on this side of the fence its a tough job..

Eddie Runner
River Oaks Car Stereo

Greg wrote:

Am i missing something here other than greed? why the hell should i
pay 100% + mark up on this stuff just so i can buy it locally and have
a warranty of questionable usefulness?
Sorry for ranting, but i do not see how these shops stay in business
charging double for the SAME product that i can buy elsewhere.

Angry in Georgia. Greg Nettles

Eddie i do understand that is tough to make a living, i own a small
auto repair shop and we make about 20% MAX on parts less than that on
labor. i was just shocked that they were getting that amount of mark
up.

We do mostly made in Europe and if i had a Jag or Volvo customer show
up and offer to let me make 30% on parts by just ordering them, i
would be all over it. Especially if they told me they were going to do
three cars and i was going to get the labor on two of them!

i do understand about shops going belly up, we have had a lot of shops
close there doors here in the past year, some for doing shoddy work
and some for trying to charge more than the market will bear, or not
taking care of there customer base.

Maybe it does take 100% + mark up to stay in business in the car
audio field.

But Eddie i do thank you for your input, maybe i am just to cheap to
spend an extra grand or more if i do not have to on just the Corvette.

Greg Nettles
Greg's Garage

On Thu, 12 May 2005 18:04:45 GMT, Eddie Runner
wrote:

Greed?
Shops drop outa biz like flies every year, its tough to make
any money at all in the car audio biz... I can tell ya cause I
been in the biz more then 30 years...

I dont know of any shops that have a GREED problem.
If car audio shops could get by with greed, there would be
alot more zillionaire shop owners and not so many going
belly up every year...

Trust me, on this side of the fence its a tough job..

Eddie Runner
River Oaks Car Stereo

Greg wrote:

Am i missing something here other than greed? why the hell should i
pay 100% + mark up on this stuff just so i can buy it locally and have
a warranty of questionable usefulness?
Sorry for ranting, but i do not see how these shops stay in business
charging double for the SAME product that i can buy elsewhere.

Angry in Georgia. Greg Nettles

Greg wrote:

Eddie i do understand that is tough to make a living, i own a small
auto repair shop and we make about 20% MAX on parts less than that on
labor. i was just shocked that they were getting that amount of mark
up.

markup can be confusing.
Generally retail (including car audio retail) that I am experienced
with try to average 30-40% margin, if you set run your biz right you can
survive on that. BUT, some products dont have 3% (competitive
stuff like XM and some brands of car audio) and some have 500%
some cables and connectors (usually low priced items)

Marking something up DOUBLE (or 100%) is called a Keystone
markup and is reasonable in most business, however its 100%
markup but its only 50% profit....

Manufacturers like JLAUDIO and most big name car stereo
manufacturers try to prevent internet and unauthorized sales to
protect themselves... If the REAL dealers have to compete
against internet (cost) sales, the REAL dealers sometimes drop
the line and look for something they CAN make money on, the
manufacturers dont like it when dealers dont want thier products..
The manufacturer may go out of biz if the dealers think it is
not a profitable line...

One particular amplifier we carried in our store years ago had
a dealer cost to us ( buying one at a time) of $608, the amp
had a published retail price of about $1100...(but of course
we might sell a little below the retail as we usually do) but anyway
after we had some in stock in the store we realized ANYONE
could buy the same amp on the internet for as low as $612...

CRAP!!
Now tell me,
is it a good investment for me as a businessman to invest $608
to make a measly $4...??? Any businessman that would invest
money for such a low return would be a MORON! Probably
make a higher percentage on his money letting it sit in the bank!

Needless to say we dropped that line of gear like a hot potato..!

Im not blaming customers for buying at the lowest price.
But as a businessman we have to find items profitable enough for
us to make a living and pay our sales folks and installers... If not
we will have to close our stores..

There is always money in Jewelry (markup on that stuff is huge!)
;-)
Eddie

In article ,
Greg wrote:

I have a 87 Corvette with the Bose radio in it and i am wanting to
rip it out and put in something that sounds better and has more
features than the Bose unit. I have been looking at JL audio speakers
to go in it, the VR525CSI or VR600CSI for the front and VR600CXI for
the rear and 2 10W3v2 subs with a JBL GTO655.6.11 amp to run the
systems.

I am a car guy and i work on car for a living and i own my own shop,
our parts mark up is mostly %15-%20, i can get theses speakers and the
amp online for about 1/2 of what i can get i can get them for
locally, i even offered several shops 30% + what ever the shipping was
so i could buy them locally. i had no takers on this.

I have been here at this location for almost 15 years working on
mostly European stuff and most of our business come from referrals
from other shops and have helped one of theses local car audio shops
out with problems they have had with code issues on a couple of cars
for no charge!! and i have bought my last two systems from them at
FULL retail!! I really do not want some one else other than myself or
the guys that work for me doing anything that requires any type of
wiring or tear down on this Corvette.

Am i missing something here other than greed? why the hell should i
pay 100% + mark up on this stuff just so i can buy it locally and have
a warranty of questionable usefulness?

about the only thing i need help on is setting up the front and rear
speakers in the old Bose enclosures and fine tuning the setup which is
the reason i wanted to buy the stuff here in Atlanta.

Sorry for ranting, but i do not see how these shops stay in business
charging double for the SAME product that i can buy elsewhere.

Angry in Georgia. Greg Nettles

Don't go with JL?

The only way to vote in america is with your money.

--
Cyrus

*coughcasaucedoprodigynetcough*

Here is a list of expenses (real bills) that stores
have over internet sites.

RENT (retail space, not a basement or garage)
in store DISPLAYS (inventory hanging on the wall)
Insurance (talking Commercial policies, not home owners)
Workman's Comp Payments
FICA matching payments
Property Taxes
General Upkeep of a retail stores looks
PAYROLL (real employees)
Health Insurance (small business pays for most in this country)
Uniforms
REAL advertising (radio, cable, outdoor signage)
(not just a domain and a google listing)


The bills above represent some of the expense it takes to
keep a store front operating. Its very simple. More bills?
Charge more money!

It's not like we mark products up for no reason. Higher priced
items cost more to purchase. They are a gamble. We spend
green cash to buy an amp or speaker set, then have them sit
on a shelf or display for weeks? months? before someone buys
it. Internet sites very rarely have deep inventory. They buy it
when its ordered, cause there DISPLAYS ARE PICTURES.
In a store people want to come in and touch the real thing.

We don't mark it up so we can put it in our pockets and go home
thinking....."wooohhoo, we ripped off some people today!!!"

I own three stores in Maryland and have run them for over 12 years.
I wish (DREAM) I could operate those three stores on the budgets
of three websites. Then I could give a "wooohooo"

"Greg" wrote ...

I am a car guy and i work on car for a living and i own my own shop,
our parts mark up is mostly %15-%20, i can get theses speakers and the
amp online for about 1/2 of what i can get i can get them for
locally, i even offered several shops 30% + what ever the shipping was
so i could buy them locally. i had no takers on this.

I'm not flaming you Greg, this is simply a perspective. By agreeing to sell
to you at a specific markup, they'd have to tell you what they are paying
for the merchandise. That's taboo at a small shop. It's very, very difficult
to compete with the big boys in Atlanta with the number of HiFi Buys, CC,
Best Buy, and well-established locals like Sound Sensations, American Radio,
etc.
They can't buy in volume like those guys, or internet businesses, and have
to make up for it with personal service and effective salesmen. They're more
likely to discuss end-result pricing instead of markup.
In addition, once they agreed to this type of sale, they'd have to tell you
what they're paying for anything else you purchased in the future. It's not
good practice for a retail establishment to reveal their product costs.

I really do not want some one else other than myself or
the guys that work for me doing anything that requires any type of
wiring or tear down on this Corvette.

Again, this is perspective.
-Shops make money on labor. Sometimes more than on the merchandise.
-Shops don't like to be told they're not competent to work on a car.
Corvettes are a pain, but chances are they've seen many in their day and
don't want anyone to make them feel like they're not qualified to do what
they do everyday.
-When product is sold to a DIY installer (which you are from their
perspective), it means they will have to spend plenty of time after the sale
talking you through the installation for free. This is not appealing.


Am i missing something here other than greed? why the hell should i
pay 100% + mark up on this stuff just so i can buy it locally and have
a warranty of questionable usefulness?

Internet warranty is more questionable than that of a local, unless it is
from a Mfr or large retailer's site. Small shops can offer excellent
warranty services.

about the only thing i need help on is setting up the front and rear
speakers in the old Bose enclosures and fine tuning the setup which is
the reason i wanted to buy the stuff here in Atlanta.

This part of the install can be very time consuming, and sometimes
aggravating. Small shops can't set aside a paying job to talk to someone for
free. Most installers are likely to work on commission. The salesmen or
managers are not going to commit their installers to helping you unless you
are willing to pay them for their time.

Sorry for ranting, but i do not see how these shops stay in business
charging double for the SAME product that i can buy elsewhere.

It costs a fortune to stay in business. Even if they got the product for
FREE, all the expenses associated with a retail business would make it a
challenge to stay afloat. Internet business doesn't share many of those
expenses, and can't offer a person to walk over and take a look at your car,
either.
Local shops are not scared of internet competition. Many buyers will end up
back in their shop after failing to get the installation done, and will just
buy from them next time to start with.

I'm in an entirely different business now, but my competition (walking
distance from me) charges up to 50% less for similar products. My store
consistenly produces more revenue with fewer clients because of our
excellent service. It's worth it to some consumers. Price shoppers are
welcome to go elsewhere and get what they pay for.

Angry in Georgia. Greg Nettles

Think about what they see... You walk in, tell them what you've decided
would be best for the car, what markup they can charge, and they'll need to
help you need in the end. Not an attractive proposal.

Tell the manager this car is your pet project, and you simply want to do
all the work as a hobby. These people consider themselves experts in their
field, respect that and ask their advice on what to buy. Spend a little time
to work out a system, and guide them into the choices you want.
Try explaining that you have, and will continue to offer your help when
they need it. Maybe think of other situations where you could exchange your
expertise for theirs. Maybe offer to keep some business cards on your desk,
give them a bit of advertising, show off the System a little when it's done
and give them the credit.
When they tally it up, make your counter-offer in dollars and don't get mad
if they don't go for it. They just want to eat, too.

Also in GA (Macon)
Tim

Well stated.

The "real" store has many conditions not faced by drop ship sellers,
etc. Yet, you can't blame the customer for shopping for the best deal
they can get.

Bigger and bigger stores (like Wallymart) have led to lower personal
service. No more store where you walk in and they know you by name
(unless you are super wealthy or famous). The internet is even less
personal. Still, I think it will reach a point where people start
wanting that personalized service and the real stores will return.
Perhaps not as many as there once were, but they'll be back.


On Fri, 13 May 2005 09:26:53 -0400, "Masterson"
wrote:

Here is a list of expenses (real bills) that stores
have over internet sites.

RENT (retail space, not a basement or garage)
in store DISPLAYS (inventory hanging on the wall)
Insurance (talking Commercial policies, not home owners)
Workman's Comp Payments
FICA matching payments
Property Taxes
General Upkeep of a retail stores looks
PAYROLL (real employees)
Health Insurance (small business pays for most in this country)
Uniforms
REAL advertising (radio, cable, outdoor signage)
(not just a domain and a google listing)


The bills above represent some of the expense it takes to
keep a store front operating. Its very simple. More bills?
Charge more money!

It's not like we mark products up for no reason. Higher priced
items cost more to purchase. They are a gamble. We spend
green cash to buy an amp or speaker set, then have them sit
on a shelf or display for weeks? months? before someone buys
it. Internet sites very rarely have deep inventory. They buy it
when its ordered, cause there DISPLAYS ARE PICTURES.
In a store people want to come in and touch the real thing.

We don't mark it up so we can put it in our pockets and go home
thinking....."wooohhoo, we ripped off some people today!!!"

I own three stores in Maryland and have run them for over 12 years.
I wish (DREAM) I could operate those three stores on the budgets
of three websites. Then I could give a "wooohooo"


Hey! Spikey Likes IT!
1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok
Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior
Vintage 40 Wheels 16X8"
w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A Radial 225/50ZR16

Hi Tim, thanks for not flaming me, i do thank you for that, i have
been gone for a couple of days but i will try to give you my take on
what you have said.

On Fri, 13 May 2005 10:29:28 -0400, "Tim Smith"
wrote:


"Greg" wrote ...

I am a car guy and i work on car for a living and i own my own shop,
our parts mark up is mostly %15-%20, i can get theses speakers and the
amp online for about 1/2 of what i can get i can get them for
locally, i even offered several shops 30% + what ever the shipping was
so i could buy them locally. i had no takers on this.



I'm not flaming you Greg, this is simply a perspective. By agreeing to sell
to you at a specific markup, they'd have to tell you what they are paying
for the merchandise. That's taboo at a small shop. It's very, very difficult
to compete with the big boys in Atlanta with the number of HiFi Buys, CC,
Best Buy, and well-established locals like Sound Sensations, American Radio,
etc.
They can't buy in volume like those guys, or internet businesses, and have
to make up for it with personal service and effective salesmen. They're more
likely to discuss end-result pricing instead of markup.
In addition, once they agreed to this type of sale, they'd have to tell you
what they're paying for anything else you purchased in the future. It's not
good practice for a retail establishment to reveal their product costs.


Tim, i was not asking them what the pay for the products, i was just
stating that i could get a certain product for x number of $.
I told them where i could get them from and how much i get then for,
if they decide that they do not want to make %30 + shipping over what
i could get the same products for, they have the right not to.

Like i have stated before, i do run a small shop and the repair work
we do is mostly made Europe, i sell my parts to the customer for
EXACTLY what they can buy the same parts for. If some one wants to
supply there own parts, as long as the parts meet my quality standards
i will install them. but i do tell them up front that there will be a
surcharge for customer supplied parts, and there will be no warranty.

i would never ask what they paid for there product.



I really do not want some one else other than myself or
the guys that work for me doing anything that requires any type of
wiring or tear down on this Corvette.

Again, this is perspective.
-Shops make money on labor. Sometimes more than on the merchandise.
-Shops don't like to be told they're not competent to work on a car.
Corvettes are a pain, but chances are they've seen many in their day and
don't want anyone to make them feel like they're not qualified to do what
they do everyday.
-When product is sold to a DIY installer (which you are from their
perspective), it means they will have to spend plenty of time after the sale
talking you through the installation for free. This is not appealing.


We see at least one car every couple of months that need MAJOR repair
due to aftermarket radios installation.
We had a VW Passat 4-motion (think A4 Audi Qatro) in here a few
weeks ago that required several thousand $ of work because of a radio
install by one of the major chains in Atlanta.
I told the folks with the VW that i would not be a party to any
litigation on there part before i laid a tool to it.

I have been doing this type of work for over 35 years, and it is
very hard to find some one who really does understand electrical work
on cars. i have just seen to much to blindly let some one tear into my
car, if i do not know them and the quality of there work.


Am i missing something here other than greed? why the hell should i
pay 100% + mark up on this stuff just so i can buy it locally and have
a warranty of questionable usefulness?

Internet warranty is more questionable than that of a local, unless it is
from a Mfr or large retailer's site. Small shops can offer excellent
warranty services.

I was very specific about not requiring a warranty

about the only thing i need help on is setting up the front and rear
speakers in the old Bose enclosures and fine tuning the setup which is
the reason i wanted to buy the stuff here in Atlanta.

This part of the install can be very time consuming, and sometimes
aggravating. Small shops can't set aside a paying job to talk to someone for
free. Most installers are likely to work on commission. The salesmen or
managers are not going to commit their installers to helping you unless you
are willing to pay them for their time.

i understand that they have to make money on they time they spend, and
i have no problems paying for it.

Sorry for ranting, but i do not see how these shops stay in business
charging double for the SAME product that i can buy elsewhere.

It costs a fortune to stay in business. Even if they got the product for
FREE, all the expenses associated with a retail business would make it a
challenge to stay afloat. Internet business doesn't share many of those
expenses, and can't offer a person to walk over and take a look at your car,
either.
Local shops are not scared of internet competition. Many buyers will end up
back in their shop after failing to get the installation done, and will just
buy from them next time to start with.

I'm in an entirely different business now, but my competition (walking
distance from me) charges up to 50% less for similar products. My store
consistenly produces more revenue with fewer clients because of our
excellent service. It's worth it to some consumers. Price shoppers are
welcome to go elsewhere and get what they pay for.


I agree that it does cost more than most even begin to have a clue
about what it cost to stay in business. I have had people come int my
shop and say "man you must of paid 2 or three thousand for that tool
box" i just don't tell them what it is worth.

when i get a call over the phone for a price quote, before i even look
up labor times or parts, i tell them we are not the cheapest around,
and we are not.

Angry in Georgia. Greg Nettles

Think about what they see... You walk in, tell them what you've decided
would be best for the car, what markup they can charge, and they'll need to
help you need in the end. Not an attractive proposal.

You do have a VERY VALID POINT!!!!

i pretty much have decided what is best for MY car, and i have
decided what i will pay for a specific product.

if they do not want to make %30 percent + shipping that is up to them,
me i would jump all over it, i am doing three cars and we will more
than likely have four to five thousand dollars in parts in them, at
say four thousand, lets see what is 30% of that, that is $1,200 for
just spending a little time with me and picking up the phone and
ordering them from the same place that i have all ready gotten prices
from, if they want to walk away from that, fine.

I understand that if they have to help me i will have to pay for it,
i just inquired with my Snap-On guy and he told me that a guy who used
to come to my shop to wait on the tool guy had been an installer for
the first place i went to for several years, i talked to the guy a lot
when he was here waiting, but i never inquired as to what he did
before he was working where he is at now. I called him on the phone
and he is more than happy to help me, if need be. so i guess the
problem is solved




Tell the manager this car is your pet project, and you simply want to do
all the work as a hobby. These people consider themselves experts in their
field, respect that and ask their advice on what to buy. Spend a little time
to work out a system, and guide them into the choices you want.
Try explaining that you have, and will continue to offer your help when
they need it. Maybe think of other situations where you could exchange your
expertise for theirs. Maybe offer to keep some business cards on your desk,
give them a bit of advertising, show off the System a little when it's done
and give them the credit.
When they tally it up, make your counter-offer in dollars and don't get mad
if they don't go for it. They just want to eat, too.

The places i went to, i believe i did some of the things that you have
suggested. I even offered to help the owner if they ever got stuck on
some thing made in Europe and they did not have the right equipment to
diagnose a problem, i said if you have some one with a MB or a Volvo
or BMW that come in and says " hey my check engine light was not on
before you guys worked on it" i told him i would use my shop to look
at them for free, just because he spent some time with me, this was
when i was leaving. i try to never be an ass hole to any one that does
not deserve it, and to just walk away from the ones that do. way to
many people carry (concealed weapons carry) in Georgia to be rude to
anyone.

Greg

Also in GA (Macon)
Tim