Hi all,
One of the remaining tender spots in my knowledge is snare top &
bottom. First off: why? I think I may know already - let me see if I
can BS my way thru it.

1) snare top is hit with stick (unless drummer is from Green Day. He
might hit it from the bottom.)
2) top mic picks up snare top head which initially moves *away* from
mic as it begins to vibrate/oscillate
3) bottom mic picks up snare bottom which initially moves *toward*
bottom mic
4) flip phase of bottom mic
a) putting both mics in same phase relative to head motion
b) canceling (at least partially) room and other surrounding sounds
giving better isolation
c) thus reinforcing snare signal
5) bottom mic also available as reverb send

Do I win a kewpie doll or go ask mom to buy me more tickets?

My real question, tho, regards postion of mics. Assume you're the
(right-handed) drummer looking at the kit. Snare top mic is probably
around 10-12 o'clock position looking at snare to fit it over the kick
and to our right of the hat.
Should the bottom mic mirror this position? That is, exactly directly
under the top mic? At the same relative angle? I'd think this would be
best for 4b & 4c, but does it really matter much? Also, given the
different quality of top & bottom head sounds due to bottom having
snare wires and top not having them - matched pair of mics relevant or
not?

Whew - I hereby publicly admit my powerlessness and humbly beseech thee
to drink from the endless font of RAP knowledge...

Thanks for playing,

Mikey Wozniak
Nova Music Productions
this sig is haiku (in relative phase)

In article om writes:

First off: why? I think I may know already - let me see if I
can BS my way thru it.

1) snare top is hit with stick (unless drummer is from Green Day. He
might hit it from the bottom.)
2) top mic picks up snare top head which initially moves *away* from
mic as it begins to vibrate/oscillate
3) bottom mic picks up snare bottom which initially moves *toward*
bottom mic
4) flip phase of bottom mic
a) putting both mics in same phase relative to head motion
b) canceling (at least partially) room and other surrounding sounds
giving better isolation
c) thus reinforcing snare signal
5) bottom mic also available as reverb send

Do I win a kewpie doll or go ask mom to buy me more tickets?

You win a coupon for a box of popcorn.

Your observations of the head movement are correct. One thing you have
to understand is that there's some travel time from when the top head
compresses the air inside the drum and the compressed air moves the
bottom head. Given the frequencies of interest in a snare drum, you'd
expect that inverting the polarity of the mic on the bottom head
wouldn't be necessary, but in practice it usually just sounds better
that way. But sometimes not. Listening while changing the polarity is
something to do, not a given thruth that inverting polarity of the
mic on the bottom head is the way to do it all the time.

I suspect that one reason why inverting the polarity works as often as
it does is that there's a fair amount of energy transferrred from the
top to the bottom head through the wood or metal shell of the drum.
The speed of sound is much faster through solid material than it is
through air, so there is less time difference in these sounds than
what's carried through the air inside the drum shell.

You don't really gain any leakage cancellation because the two mics
are too far apart to pick up enough of the same thing, which is
necessary for cancellation.

The more important reason for putting a mic on the bottom head is
because it's a different sound than the top head. Whem mics are placed
close to the drums and you don't get much projected sound (which is a
mix of the top and bottom head sound) it helps to have some of that
bottom head sound to supplement the sound of the stick on the top
head.

My real question, tho, regards postion of mics. Assume you're the
(right-handed) drummer looking at the kit. Snare top mic is probably
around 10-12 o'clock position looking at snare to fit it over the kick
and to our right of the hat.
Should the bottom mic mirror this position?

Not necessarily. The position of the top mic is often a compromise
between where it sounds the way you like it and where the drummer
won't hit it. You don't have that constraint on the bottom head, so
it's reasonable to play around with its position a little more. It's
not worth spending hours on, but it's worth a couple of minutes to try
to find a sound that combines nicely with the top head - or to decide
that you really don't need it for the sound that you're trying to get.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

novamusic wrote:
One of the remaining tender spots in my knowledge is snare top &
bottom. First off: why? I think I may know already - let me see if I
can BS my way thru it.

1) snare top is hit with stick (unless drummer is from Green Day. He
might hit it from the bottom.)
2) top mic picks up snare top head which initially moves *away* from
mic as it begins to vibrate/oscillate
3) bottom mic picks up snare bottom which initially moves *toward*
bottom mic
4) flip phase of bottom mic
a) putting both mics in same phase relative to head motion
b) canceling (at least partially) room and other surrounding sounds
giving better isolation
c) thus reinforcing snare signal
5) bottom mic also available as reverb send

Hey, I'm BSing too, but what about:

6) bottom head of snare has, well, that big metal beady strip thing
(called a "snare") on it, so the bottom mic picks up more of the sound
of the snare smacking and rattling against the drum head.

Maybe it's just so obvious you didn't include it, but I thought
I might throw it in too.

- Logan

In article writes:

Hey, I'm BSing too, but what about:

6) bottom head of snare has, well, that big metal beady strip thing
(called a "snare") on it

Oh, so THAT'S why they call it a "snare drum." g


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Maximizing the wide equalization bandwidth from drum overheads is often
a quandary due to the verity that in most drum kit recordings, the
overheads are out of phase amid the snare and toms. Adding more low
frequency content to the snare or removing low frequency content with
high-pass filtering from the overheads, will only exacerbate the
dilemma.
In mixing, some engineers will enhance the low-end of the snare through
low frequency gain,
utilizing a "Q" factor between 3-5. This will obviously create the
misapprehension that the snare sounds fuller, except, when the
over-heads are added into the mix, the effect is shattered. This
phenomena occurs due to the fact that the long wavelength of
frequencies between 70-140hz will be out of phase with each other when
they are combined together when 3-4ms apart.

Solution

Reverse the phase ON BOTH overheads.

Try going back to some of your older recording and try this and while
checking for phase problems, monitor all drum kit elements in mono. If
the snare is too loud in the overheads, insert linked compressors keyed
to a gated and limited snare trigger send. Use quick attack and release
times. You most likely not generate half-cycle distortion from a quick
release time

This process is used often and can be illustated in The song "Black
Velvet" by Alannah Myles. You will notice that the
snare sounds full and present, but by all means not great. What does
sound suitable is the fullness and sustain of the crashes on the
downbeats.

Kevin Doyle

original question...

My real question, tho, regards postion of mics. Assume you're the
(right-handed) drummer looking at the kit. Snare top mic is probably
around 10-12 o'clock position looking at snare to fit it over the
kick
and to our right of the hat.
Should the bottom mic mirror this position? That is, exactly directly
under the top mic? At the same relative angle? I'd think this would be
best for 4b & 4c, but does it really matter much? Also, given the
different quality of top & bottom head sounds due to bottom having
snare wires and top not having them - matched pair of mics relevant or
not?

kevin's answer

Maximizing the wide equalization bandwidth from drum overheads i

okay where should he put the ****ing two mics around the snare???
diatribes are nice for teaching in a class room
writing a book requires much in rewriting on a topic
what was your thesis project kevin??

wrote:
Solution

Reverse the phase ON BOTH overheads.

Kevin Doyle

Hmm, that is the exact same text that was posted in reply to
another article a couple of minutes ago.

Kevin, if you want to participate in this newsgroup and not
seriously annoy others, I would like to make a suggestion:
DO NOT USE CUT AND PASTE AT ALL. Just type up what you want to
say right there in the window that you're using to compose
your post.

If you already have an article that you've written previously,
and you think it is relevant to question someone asked and may
contain the information they're looking for, then write something
like this:

I read your question about micing the snare and thought
an article I wrote several months might be helpful. I've
posted it at http://whatever.whatever.whatever/whatever.html

You might find the part about compression to be relevant
because [reason why it's relevant].

Kevin Doyle

However, in this case, I'm not sure the article you posted really
is relevant or helpful. It's just barely tangentially related.
The original question is about micing the top head of the snare
vs. micing the bottom, and the interactions between the two.
It's not about how the snare mics fit in with the overall picture
of micing the whole kit.

It's obvious you have some experience in the studio (more than
I do, for sure, which is not saying much since I have very little
experience in the studio...) and some insight to offer, but if
you post the same stuff over and over without being asked and
without even making it clear that you're quoting yourself, you
make yourself look like you believe you have all the answers
and everyone here is just waiting for you to reveal the secret
knowledge that only you have.

- Logan

wrote in message
oups.com...

much snippage

I meant to reply to the OP's post, but forgot to at the time, and now I
can't find the beginning of the thread, so apologies in advance if I cover
anything that someone's already said.

Your main questions were in regard to placement, mic matching, and phasing
IIRC:

a.) With regard to mic matching... no, it doesn't have to be the same kind
of mic - you're not going for a stereo top/bottom image, so mic matching
isn't necessary, although it's certainly not a no-no, either. Furthermore,
the bottom head is going to have a very different sound from the top head
for any number of reasons such as:
1.) Normally the top & bottom heads are of different surface material.
2.) You've got snares on the bottom head, but not on the top
3.) The top head is being struck, while the bottom head is simply
reacting to the air in the snare (over there, mon frere').
4.) The floor - 'nuff said.
It's almost as if you're micing a whole different instrument, really; and
while phase-flipping one of two identical mics will give you better
cancellation, there's so much else going on that's different, that matching
mics contribute less to the amount of cancellation that do all these other
factors combined.

b.) With regard to mic distance & corresponding angle from the bottom
head... no it doesn't have to be the same distance as that of the top head
mic, but it doesn't hurt to start out that way; the few times I've used a
bottom snare mic (I really don't like doing so for various reasons, so this
post is admittedly biased), I've found it very helpful to solo this mic
often if I need to try different positions - that way you can see how it's
reacting with the waves emanating from the floor, as well... which are
considerable. It's best to try & find the angle that gives you the most
"floor rejection", IMO - that angle will obviously will vary with the pickup
pattern of the mic you choose. You know you're going to get a ton of floor,
and depending on the other mics on the kit, this is where (again, IMO) you
have to be most careful with regard to phase... for example, in most
instances, if you're using a single-mic'ed snare, your main concern with
phase with regard to the snare itself is going to be making sure the
overheads are equidistant from the snare - or at least at distances, if
different, do not cause phase problems - and also do not have phase issues
with the top-head snare mic itself (and what THAT mic is picking up from the
floor vs. what the OH's are), but once you throw that bottom mic on the
snare, then you can open up a big can of whup-ass worms, because now you've
got three sets of distances (translated: "potential causes for phase
issues") to deal with, and they do not always work in your favor.

c.) More on phase... OK, so let's say you've got the capsule of your top
snare mic sitting at 28" above the floor, 1" from the top head, and the
capsule of your bottom snare mic sitting at 20" from the floor, 1" from the
bottom head (assuming a 6" snare); what kind of phase issues does that get
you with regard to floor reflections interacting with both mics, and
considering that you're flipping the phase on your bottom mic? Relatively
nothing in the big picture, because you find out that the drummer happens to
be one of those guys who likes to stuff the snare in his crotch & you have
to place the bottom snare mic about 12" from the rear kick head & you've
already got a killer tone on your main kick mic, which is placed about the
same distance from that head inside the kick... yet your bottom snare mic is
flipped out-of-phase with both the top snare mic, and now the kick mic, as
well... see what I'm getting at? Ideally in this circumstance, the bottom
snare mic should be IN phase with the kick mic so that the excursion of the
head on the inside of the kick matches in the time domain the incursion of
the head on the outside - otherwise, MAJOR phase issues will ensue.

OK, so it's not always as complicated as all that, but I guess what I'm
trying to say is that if you don't stuff the top snare mic right up the
snare's nose (alright, you caught me, snares don't have noses, but you know
what I'm saying), then you can get a good strike tone, along with a good
snare tone off the floor and from the shell, and avoid all this crap. My
suggestion is to back off the top snare mic a bit & give it some room to
breathe & see what you come up with without having to go with a bottom snare
mic.

Having said that, try it & see if you like it... what the **** have you got
to lose?

Neil Henderson
Hater of bottom-snare micing

wrote:

often a quandary

Indeed. Hence, get the Quantagy, if only for the alliteration.

--
ha

hank alrich wrote:

wrote:


often a quandary


Indeed. Hence, get the Quantagy, if only for the alliteration.

Yes, but these days where to get a large quantity of Quantegy is
certainly a quandary.

- Logan

Neil Henderson wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

much snippage

I meant to reply to the OP's post, but forgot to at the time, and now
I
can't find the beginning of the thread, so apologies in advance if I
cover
anything that someone's already said.

Your main questions were in regard to placement, mic matching, and
phasing
IIRC:

a.) With regard to mic matching... no, it doesn't have to be the same
kind
of mic - you're not going for a stereo top/bottom image, so mic
matching
isn't necessary, although it's certainly not a no-no, either.
Furthermore,
the bottom head is going to have a very different sound from the top
head
for any number of reasons such as:
1.) Normally the top & bottom heads are of different surface
material.
2.) You've got snares on the bottom head, but not on the top
3.) The top head is being struck, while the bottom head is
simply
reacting to the air in the snare (over there, mon frere').
4.) The floor - 'nuff said.
It's almost as if you're micing a whole different instrument, really;
and
while phase-flipping one of two identical mics will give you better
cancellation, there's so much else going on that's different, that
matching
mics contribute less to the amount of cancellation that do all these
other
factors combined.

b.) With regard to mic distance & corresponding angle from the bottom

head... no it doesn't have to be the same distance as that of the top
head
mic, but it doesn't hurt to start out that way; the few times I've
used a
bottom snare mic (I really don't like doing so for various reasons,
so this
post is admittedly biased), I've found it very helpful to solo this
mic
often if I need to try different positions - that way you can see how
it's
reacting with the waves emanating from the floor, as well... which
are
considerable. It's best to try & find the angle that gives you the
most
"floor rejection", IMO - that angle will obviously will vary with the
pickup
pattern of the mic you choose. You know you're going to get a ton of
floor,
and depending on the other mics on the kit, this is where (again,
IMO) you
have to be most careful with regard to phase... for example, in most
instances, if you're using a single-mic'ed snare, your main concern
with
phase with regard to the snare itself is going to be making sure the
overheads are equidistant from the snare - or at least at distances,
if
different, do not cause phase problems - and also do not have phase
issues
with the top-head snare mic itself (and what THAT mic is picking up
from the
floor vs. what the OH's are), but once you throw that bottom mic on
the
snare, then you can open up a big can of whup-ass worms, because now
you've
got three sets of distances (translated: "potential causes for phase
issues") to deal with, and they do not always work in your favor.

c.) More on phase... OK, so let's say you've got the capsule of your
top
snare mic sitting at 28" above the floor, 1" from the top head, and
the
capsule of your bottom snare mic sitting at 20" from the floor, 1"
from the
bottom head (assuming a 6" snare); what kind of phase issues does
that get
you with regard to floor reflections interacting with both mics, and
considering that you're flipping the phase on your bottom mic?
Relatively
nothing in the big picture, because you find out that the drummer
happens to
be one of those guys who likes to stuff the snare in his crotch & you
have
to place the bottom snare mic about 12" from the rear kick head &
you've
already got a killer tone on your main kick mic, which is placed
about the
same distance from that head inside the kick... yet your bottom snare
mic is
flipped out-of-phase with both the top snare mic, and now the kick
mic, as
well... see what I'm getting at? Ideally in this circumstance, the
bottom
snare mic should be IN phase with the kick mic so that the excursion
of the
head on the inside of the kick matches in the time domain the
incursion of
the head on the outside - otherwise, MAJOR phase issues will ensue.

OK, so it's not always as complicated as all that, but I guess what
I'm
trying to say is that if you don't stuff the top snare mic right up
the
snare's nose (alright, you caught me, snares don't have noses, but
you know
what I'm saying), then you can get a good strike tone, along with a
good
snare tone off the floor and from the shell, and avoid all this crap.
My
suggestion is to back off the top snare mic a bit & give it some room
to
breathe & see what you come up with without having to go with a
bottom snare
mic.

Having said that, try it & see if you like it... what the **** have
you got
to lose?

Neil Henderson
Hater of bottom-snare micing


Whew, thanks Neil, for being a) on-topic, and b) thorough. For a minute
there, I thought you'd been reading all that Kevin Doyle stuff (you
missed, I ducked my head).

I hadn't hought of this, below...

well... see what I'm getting at? Ideally in this circumstance, the
bottom
snare mic should be IN phase with the kick mic so that the excursion
of the
head on the inside of the kick matches in the time domain the
incursion of
the head on the outside - otherwise, MAJOR phase issues will ensue.

"outside" refers to outer kick head? Is it a non-issue if there is no
outer kick head? I'm not clear on what you're referring to. BTW, I'm
not a snare-bottom addict, my general philosophy is "doesn't hurt to
record it to a separate track, we may or may not use it". I didn't
think matched pair would be an issue, but now ya got me thinking about
floor reflections & that's a good thing. I'll try aiming the bottom mic
toward the drummers crotch (seriously), which is probably a bit more
absorbent that the rest of the kit. Maybe I can get the drummer to wear
pampers or depends... no, I think not. But maybe I'll try something
absorbent or some sort of barrier between the bottom and the kick.

Thanks All,

Mikey Wozniak
Nova Music Productions
this sig is haiku

"novamusic" wrote in message
oups.com...
Whew, thanks Neil, for being a) on-topic, and b) thorough. For a minute
there, I thought you'd been reading all that Kevin Doyle stuff (you
missed, I ducked my head).

I hadn't hought of this, below...

well... see what I'm getting at? Ideally in this circumstance, the
bottom
snare mic should be IN phase with the kick mic so that the excursion
of the
head on the inside of the kick matches in the time domain the
incursion of
the head on the outside - otherwise, MAJOR phase issues will ensue.

"outside" refers to outer kick head?

No, in that case, I meant the outside of the back head, the "batter head" of
the kick drum, the head the the beater whacks upon... sorry if I wasn't
clear there.

Is it a non-issue if there is no outer kick head?

No, hell, everything's an issue with drum micing - that's why engineers take
so much pride in a well-mic'ed kit. But nonetheless, I was not referring to
an outer kick head in this case, I was referring to the excursion of the
main/inner head impacted by the kick beater as experienced by a kick mic
inside the kick vs the incursion experienced by a bottom snare mic that
happens to be fairly close to that same (beater/batter/inner) head of the
kick.

I'm not clear on what you're referring to.

That stuff above should have made it clear if I was remiss in doing so
before.

BTW, I'm not a snare-bottom addict, my general philosophy is "doesn't hurt
to
record it to a separate track, we may or may not use it".

Yer right, it can never hurt to try it, as long as you leave yourself an
"out".

I didn't think matched pair would be an issue, but now ya got me thinking
about
floor reflections & that's a good thing. I'll try aiming the bottom mic
toward the drummers crotch (seriously), which is probably a bit more
absorbent that the rest of the kit. Maybe I can get the drummer to wear
pampers or depends... no, I think not. But maybe I'll try something
absorbent or some sort of barrier between the bottom and the kick.

Well, instead of pondering where to aim the front end of the mic, I'd worry
more about getting minimal reflection from the floor by making sure the
back-end of the pickup pattern isn't giving you a hard time... IOW, with ANY
cardioid, you probably don't want to be 90 degrees perpendicular with the
floor, as your max rejection is going to be at some obtuse angle from that -
again, this is going to depend on which mic you choose, so just play with it
until you find something that works. Different drummers set up their kit in
different ways, and every room is different, so these things are going to
factor into your decision as to how much (if any) of that bottom snare mic
to use.

Neil Henderson
(Still a Hater of bottom-mic'ed snares )

novamusic wrote:
Hi all,
One of the remaining tender spots in my knowledge is snare top &
bottom. First off: why? I think I may know already - let me see if I
can BS my way thru it.

1) snare top is hit with stick (unless drummer is from Green Day. He
might hit it from the bottom.)
2) top mic picks up snare top head which initially moves *away* from
mic as it begins to vibrate/oscillate
3) bottom mic picks up snare bottom which initially moves *toward*
bottom mic
4) flip phase of bottom mic
a) putting both mics in same phase relative to head motion
b) canceling (at least partially) room and other surrounding
sounds
giving better isolation
c) thus reinforcing snare signal
5) bottom mic also available as reverb send

Do I win a kewpie doll or go ask mom to buy me more tickets?

You win the right to continue playing, next 3 tosses are free.
"It is still your turn"

My real question, tho, regards postion of mics. Assume you're the
(right-handed) drummer looking at the kit. Snare top mic is probably
around 10-12 o'clock position looking at snare to fit it over the
kick
and to our right of the hat.
Should the bottom mic mirror this position? That is, exactly directly
under the top mic? At the same relative angle? I'd think this would
be
best for 4b & 4c, but does it really matter much?

Not as much as you might think.

Also, given the
different quality of top & bottom head sounds due to bottom having
snare wires and top not having them - matched pair of mics relevant
or
not?

Not at all, mix and match to taste.

Whew - I hereby publicly admit my powerlessness and humbly beseech
thee
to drink from the endless font of RAP knowledge...

With all the controversy in various threads about
technique I am hesitant, but here goes ...
[DISCLAIMER - I often try unorthodox techniques in a
conscious effort to obtain unique and distinctive sound]
Usually it turns to crap and I revert to 'standard'
practice. Sometimes I stumble across something worth
using, in this case quite literally by accident.
Rock band live show outside, using 3 drum mics:
EV PL20 in the kick
CAD small condensor overhead
EV PL9 omni (RE55) side near the hat/snare.
At some point near the beginning of the show
the side (omni) mic fell onto the carpeted
drum riser but I didn't notice it. I did notice
the difference in sound. The snare was a lot
brighter than normal and a little hollow.
The 'floor' mic became the bottom snare mic
to counter the overhead top. I think by chance
the 2 were near the same distance from the snare.
Later I inverted the bottom mic and the sound
started to jell. I liked it.
Anyway, just an idea - YMMV and most likely will.


Thanks for playing,

Mikey Wozniak
Nova Music Productions
this sig is haiku (in relative phase)

rd
practitioner of unorthodoxy