[Ian Iveson]

Ian Thompson-Bell wrote

How could I tell you aren't an experienced teacher?


Of course, experienced is not synonymous with effective.

Of course not, but it is a prerequisite. Certainly you
wouldn't be allowed to teach a class without it, or without
a good report from an observing inspector. There are good
reasons for that.

But I don't blame some folk for belittling the profession,
as there are many poor teachers all the same. Sadly,
experience and training are only necessary, rather than
sufficient, conditions.

Ian

[Ian Thompson-Bell]

Ian Iveson wrote:
"Ian Thompson-Bell" wrote in
message ...
Ian Iveson wrote:
Why have you edited my post?

Because the damn thing is getting unwieldy.

Because I cut out the bits I thought irrelevant.

Because I can

This is the part that, in context, I thought you might find
particularly useful:

"Nonsense. See the dangers of blind handouts, below. Let's
imagine a student who doesn't already know what you are
trying to teach, which could be someone up to 'A level'
standard in maths, but who hasn't studied any kind of
engineering or science at degree level.

Give them an equation such as y = 5x + 3. Ask them "what is
the value of y when x = 2", and they will say "13". Notice
that common usage of "when".

Such a person will certainly misconstrue what you have
written."

So which was that: unwieldy, irrelevant, or just because you
can?


Irrelevant.

Yesterday evening I had a chap in his 40s round who is studying
commercial construction and who was having trouble with a couple of
assignment questions. The problem was a much more complex version of the
'if it takes two men three weeks to build a 100ft wall, how long etc'.

He understood the question and the terminology perfectly; he had been in
the building trade for many years. He knew the maths but he could not
solve the problem. He and his class mates had together tired to tackle
the problem but got nowhere.

I know nothing of commercial building but he explained the terms to me
and I could then understand the problem. I then walked him through step
by step showing him how to apply the maths he knew to this problem.

He went away a happy man not only because he got the answer but more
importantly because he understood how the maths he knew were relevant to
his job and how they were just as useful a set of tools as the physical
ones in his toolbox and now he knows how to use those maths tools too.

That's what NFB101 aims to do in this context.

I make no claims to be a teacher - experienced, effective or otherwise,
but I am pretty certain I make a difference for the better

Cheers

Ian

[Ian Iveson]

Ian Thompson-Bell wrote:

Ian Iveson wrote:

How could I tell you aren't an experienced teacher?

Ian

And you are?? Quoted from your own web site.

'I was a philosophy student, then a production manager,
then a graduate engineer, then a project manager and
design engineer, then a single parent and a lecturer in
business computing.'


It's not a complete or up to date list, but does include
"lecturer" which, for the FE part, is teaching and requires
a teaching qualification, unlike the HE part of my work.
That, incidentally, is why I use the term "student" rather
than "pupil". You might infer that I never wanted to teach
in the first place, correctly. Even less so when the current
funding body took over, and enforced the practice of "FOFO"
(an acronym, originated by accounting teachers and now
widespread, for "**** off and find out"), and a cycle of
handouts and assignments with marking but no teaching. Less
so still when students' complaints began to be
systematically suppressed by threats of punishment, and
intolerably so when that suppression made my young women
students in the 16-19 yr age group vulnerable to abuse. FE
is a tacky business now. To some extent it always has been.
I did what I could to cause a commotion when I left.

All the same, I am an excellent teacher. Never a complaint
from a student, and not one student ever failed a course due
to failure in any of my subjects, whichever subjects I
taught. An unparalled achievement on their parts, especially
considering the general failure of education here in
Bradford. It's all about empathy. I especially like teaching
subjects I know nothing about. Shared ignorance is the best
starting point if the course is long enough to get round the
obvious pitfall.

If I were happy with my web pages I would have publicised
them. It was a first draft, not finished, and part of my
efforts to train myself in electronics and acquaint myself
with HTML. I got stuck on the philosophy part, and decided
not to publish until I'd sorted it out in my head (and taken
better pictures, ahem, not easy coz I'm colour-blind, as you
can probably tell).

I've just about sussed what I want to write on the
philosophy now, thanks, so I'll be returning to rip up and
retry in the future. I'll cut the personal stuff (which I
have so far managed to avoid bringing to the group for ten
years or so...thanks). And I will present a complete
argument, hopefully, of why a domestic audio system is a
musical instrument.

Ian

[Ian Iveson]

"Ian Thompson-Bell" wrote in
message ...
Ian Iveson wrote:
How could I tell you aren't an experienced teacher?

Ian

How could I tell you are not an experienced communicator?


Don't be silly. Everyone has experience in communication.
Everyone also knows it's a two-way process. You began your
response to my contributions snootily, and have got more
snooty as we continued, with one (rather cryptic I thought)
exception. Still I tried.

But anyway, if you wish, tell me how you could tell.

I've raised a lot of pertinent issues with helpful intent. I
don't understand why you are trying to be nasty.



Ian

Amateur

[Ian Iveson]

Ian said:

How could I tell you are not an experienced communicator?

Cheers

Ian


Whoops, that should have read 'effective' not
'experienced'

Whoops, too late...

I thought you said you were going off in a huff, anyway. I
don't think I can help you further, until you have digested
what I've already contributed, so you may as well. I'm a bit
tired of your posts for the moment, anyway.

I am effective, in that I generally achieve my objectives.
Sometimes I set out for the long haul though. Some people
are lost causes and then I regret the misjudgement I made by
trying in the first place, though I don't at present expect
you to be a basket case.

LOL

Whatever turns you on...

A got a slight kick out of the idea that some inattentive
browser might think this is all some Ian talking to himself.

Ian

[Ian Iveson]

"Ian Thompson-Bell" wrote in
message ...
Ian Iveson wrote:
"Ian Thompson-Bell" wrote in
message ...
Ian Iveson wrote:
Why have you edited my post?

Because the damn thing is getting unwieldy.

Because I cut out the bits I thought irrelevant.

Because I can

This is the part that, in context, I thought you might
find particularly useful:

"Nonsense. See the dangers of blind handouts, below.
Let's
imagine a student who doesn't already know what you are
trying to teach, which could be someone up to 'A level'
standard in maths, but who hasn't studied any kind of
engineering or science at degree level.

Give them an equation such as y = 5x + 3. Ask them "what
is
the value of y when x = 2", and they will say "13".
Notice
that common usage of "when".

Such a person will certainly misconstrue what you have
written."

So which was that: unwieldy, irrelevant, or just because
you can?


Irrelevant.

Irrelevant that such a person will certainly misconstrue?
Don't you care?

So who, exactly, are you trying to help? You said newcomers,
I thought...but my category included not only numerate
newcomers, but all numerate people who don't already know
what you are trying to explain.


Yesterday evening I had a chap in his 40s round who is
studying commercial construction and who was having
trouble with a couple of assignment questions. The problem
was a much more complex version of the 'if it takes two
men three weeks to build a 100ft wall, how long etc'.

He understood the question and the terminology perfectly;
he had been in the building trade for many years. He knew
the maths but he could not solve the problem. He and his
class mates had together tired to tackle the problem but
got nowhere.

Not a newcomer, then. Someone who already knew? That would
escape my category, yes. So are you only trying to teach
those who already know? How is that helpful?

I know nothing of commercial building but he explained the
terms to me and I could then understand the problem. I
then walked him through step by step showing him how to
apply the maths he knew to this problem.

He went away a happy man not only because he got the
answer but more importantly because he understood how the
maths he knew were relevant to his job and how they were
just as useful a set of tools as the physical ones in his
toolbox and now he knows how to use those maths tools too.

That's what NFB101 aims to do in this context.

I make no claims to be a teacher - experienced, effective
or otherwise, but I am pretty certain I make a difference
for the better

How do you think you know?

But good for you. Probably not good for him, unless he wants
to end up with a job he can't do because you aren't there to
hold his hand.

I would never, ever, for good professional reasons, help a
student through an assignment set by another teacher unless
requested by that teacher, and I would still refuse unless
he put me completely in the picture, and documented my
contribution. If I didn't stick to this essential principle,
I would expect that teacher, if he were any good, to be
bitterly upset because of the consequent invalidation of
much of the process.

It's likely that the assignment was set in part to assess
the ability to do that walking on his own, or as a prelude
to the teaching of a particular way of walking, which you
have now in part undermined. OTOH, if he's got a rubbish
teacher you might have been marginally better than
nothing...but only just. I can't see on the face of it how a
whole class could be justifiably left in miserable mystery.
The downside of your intervention in the case of an
incompetent teacher is that the teacher will get a false
impression that he's doing a good job, and the course won't
improve.

How did you know he learned from you? Did you assess your
contribution? Was that assessment approved and
cross-checked? Was it moderated and inspected? Has he shown
he can do it on his own now? Have you assessed that? As I
said at the beginning, it's easy to foster delusions of
knowledge. The question is whether they are able to pass a
similar assignment on their own. The real acid test comes if
they get a job, or get onto a higher course. If they fail at
that point, their cheating can really **** up their life.

I encourage students to help each other, and I observe that
process, and advise what is truly helpful and what is not,
and consequently I know exactly how much they understand as
individuals, and how much they have depended on others, and
how much on me. If I can't do that, I don't get the feedback
that *I* need to be effective. I also assess that process of
working together, which your victim's teacher could not do
even if working together is what you were doing.

Meddling do-gooders are counter-productive, generally.

Did you say you are an expert? Are you insured?

Ian

[Eeyore]

Ian Thompson-Bell wrote:

Ian Iveson wrote:

Shortly after Chris Hornbeck wrote a series of posts on how
to handle feedback, he left in exasperation. It's not
cynical to try to save you from the same fate.

It's not cynical if I take the trouble to relate my
experience. It wasn't cynical to try to keep your failing
thread afloat at my own expense.

It is ungrateful of you to dismiss the best intentions of an
excellent and experienced teacher. Perhaps your unprompted
mention of reverence reveals more than you intended about
your motivation. Now you can call me cynical.


That's enough. I will not engage in such a senseless debate. I have much
better things to do with my time. And I shall continue with NFB 101.

Iveson is a **** who simply likes to argue for the sake of it. He also
thinks he is never wrong despite having posted some of the most ignorant
nonsense I have ever seen.

You're 100% right to ignore him.


Graham

[Eeyore]

Ian Iveson wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

Ian Thompson-Bell wrote:

The basic feedback equation is valid at all frequencies
you just need to substitute frequency dependent
versions of Ao and ß

Nonsense.

NOT nonsense. Learn some damn basics.

You know I know the basics, silly.

Read, think, and try to grasp my point in context. If you
want a clue, just ask.

How about you STATE what you mean instead of playing silly
guessing games ?

Because your approach quite obviously didn't deserve it, and
you didn't ask anyway.

It's not for ME to ask, it's for YOU to explain what the BLOODY HELL
you mean !


You can't say I don't know the basics, and then credibly berate me for
not explaining them
to you.

I have written as much of an explanation as I wish to for
the moment. I have also said why

Well the SHUT THE **** UP and stop whining you pitiful excuse for a
human being.

Graham

[Eeyore]

Ian Thompson-Bell wrote:

Yesterday evening I had a chap in his 40s round who is studying
commercial construction and who was having trouble with a couple of
assignment questions. The problem was a much more complex version of the
'if it takes two men three weeks to build a 100ft wall, how long etc'.

He understood the question and the terminology perfectly; he had been in
the building trade for many years. He knew the maths but he could not
solve the problem. He and his class mates had together tired to tackle
the problem but got nowhere.

I know nothing of commercial building but he explained the terms to me
and I could then understand the problem. I then walked him through step
by step showing him how to apply the maths he knew to this problem.

He went away a happy man not only because he got the answer but more
importantly because he understood how the maths he knew were relevant to
his job and how they were just as useful a set of tools as the physical
ones in his toolbox and now he knows how to use those maths tools too.

That's what NFB101 aims to do in this context.

I make no claims to be a teacher - experienced, effective or otherwise,
but I am pretty certain I make a difference for the better

Cheers

Ian

I, for one will say you have done an excellent job.

Sadly this group, like many others, is infested with idiots who only ever
wish to criticise.


Graham

[Eeyore]

Ian Iveson wrote:

Everyone has experience in communication.

Doesn't mean you're any good at it.

Most of your posts consist of cryptic 'read my mind' nonsense.

Graham

[Ian Thompson-Bell[_3_]]

Eeyore wrote:

Ian Thompson-Bell wrote:

Yesterday evening I had a chap in his 40s round who is studying
commercial construction and who was having trouble with a couple of
assignment questions. The problem was a much more complex version of the
'if it takes two men three weeks to build a 100ft wall, how long etc'.

He understood the question and the terminology perfectly; he had been in
the building trade for many years. He knew the maths but he could not
solve the problem. He and his class mates had together tired to tackle
the problem but got nowhere.

I know nothing of commercial building but he explained the terms to me
and I could then understand the problem. I then walked him through step
by step showing him how to apply the maths he knew to this problem.

He went away a happy man not only because he got the answer but more
importantly because he understood how the maths he knew were relevant to
his job and how they were just as useful a set of tools as the physical
ones in his toolbox and now he knows how to use those maths tools too.

That's what NFB101 aims to do in this context.

I make no claims to be a teacher - experienced, effective or otherwise,
but I am pretty certain I make a difference for the better

Cheers

Ian

I, for one will say you have done an excellent job.

Sadly this group, like many others, is infested with idiots who only ever
wish to criticise.


Graham


Yes, and I have decided to take my own advice and ignore him.

Ian

[Ian Thompson-Bell[_3_]]

Ian Iveson wrote:
Ian said:

How could I tell you are not an experienced communicator?

Cheers

Ian

Whoops, that should have read 'effective' not
'experienced'

Whoops, too late...

I thought you said you were going off in a huff, anyway. I
don't think I can help you further, until you have digested
what I've already contributed, so you may as well. I'm a bit
tired of your posts for the moment, anyway.


No, not in a huff. It just saddens me that such negative people as you
exist and somehow think they 'contribute'.

Cheers

Ian

[Ian Thompson-Bell[_3_]]

Ian Iveson wrote:
"Ian Thompson-Bell" wrote in
message ...
Ian Iveson wrote:
"Ian Thompson-Bell" wrote in
message ...
Ian Iveson wrote:
Why have you edited my post?

Because the damn thing is getting unwieldy.

Because I cut out the bits I thought irrelevant.

Because I can
This is the part that, in context, I thought you might
find particularly useful:

"Nonsense. See the dangers of blind handouts, below.
Let's
imagine a student who doesn't already know what you are
trying to teach, which could be someone up to 'A level'
standard in maths, but who hasn't studied any kind of
engineering or science at degree level.

Give them an equation such as y = 5x + 3. Ask them "what
is
the value of y when x = 2", and they will say "13".
Notice
that common usage of "when".

Such a person will certainly misconstrue what you have
written."

So which was that: unwieldy, irrelevant, or just because
you can?

Irrelevant.

Irrelevant that such a person will certainly misconstrue?
Don't you care?

So who, exactly, are you trying to help? You said newcomers,
I thought...but my category included not only numerate
newcomers, but all numerate people who don't already know
what you are trying to explain.

Yesterday evening I had a chap in his 40s round who is
studying commercial construction and who was having
trouble with a couple of assignment questions. The problem
was a much more complex version of the 'if it takes two
men three weeks to build a 100ft wall, how long etc'.

He understood the question and the terminology perfectly;
he had been in the building trade for many years. He knew
the maths but he could not solve the problem. He and his
class mates had together tired to tackle the problem but
got nowhere.

Not a newcomer, then. Someone who already knew? That would
escape my category, yes. So are you only trying to teach
those who already know? How is that helpful?

You misunderstand the analogy. I expect newcomers to NFB in tubes to be
familiar with building tube circuits and the basic theory of tubes (just
like my friend was familiar with building and maths) .Their difficulty
is understanding NFB in that context. NFB101 seeks to bridge that gap
and give them the tools to be able to properly employ NFB in tube circuits.

Cheers

Ian

[Patrick Turner]

snip a vast amount,


I apologise if you think I have been snooty. I genuinely
want to get this right.

I'd rather you didn't apologise for what I think, thanks.

There is no way of getting it right. Trust me.

Then Iveson blurts out this utter crap......

Patrick is a case study in the pathos of the blind handout.
He says that he thinks he posts all that stuff to help
people, then he glows with pride when he is congratulated,
then when his loyal subjects reveal by their hopeless
questions that they have learned absolutely nothing, he
berates them for being feckless and stupid. It's a tragedy,
and he's a menace.

I get an average of 450 hits per day at my website.

Melbourne IT, my website hoster told me this the other day,
and congratualted me on the amount of ppl I attract.

Maybe once a fortnight someobdy has a question for me in an email
about tubecraft. I politely explain if I am able.
Quite a few guys have made amps from the schematics I have laid out.


I insist they do their own homework though, and learn to be independant.

They all realise I am not going to spoon feed them like a baby each time
thay cannot figure out something I figured out on my own with nobody to
ask,
and only a few old books to read, and no PC and no Google.

What Iveson says is utter ********.

Patrick Turner.





Ian

[Patrick Turner]

Ian Thompson-Bell wrote:

Ian Iveson wrote:
"Ian Thompson-Bell" wrote in
message ...
Ian Iveson wrote:
Why have you edited my post?

Because the damn thing is getting unwieldy.

Because I cut out the bits I thought irrelevant.

Because I can

This is the part that, in context, I thought you might find
particularly useful:

"Nonsense. See the dangers of blind handouts, below. Let's
imagine a student who doesn't already know what you are
trying to teach, which could be someone up to 'A level'
standard in maths, but who hasn't studied any kind of
engineering or science at degree level.

Give them an equation such as y = 5x + 3. Ask them "what is
the value of y when x = 2", and they will say "13". Notice
that common usage of "when".

Such a person will certainly misconstrue what you have
written."

So which was that: unwieldy, irrelevant, or just because you
can?


Irrelevant.

Yesterday evening I had a chap in his 40s round who is studying
commercial construction and who was having trouble with a couple of
assignment questions. The problem was a much more complex version of the
'if it takes two men three weeks to build a 100ft wall, how long etc'.

He understood the question and the terminology perfectly; he had been in
the building trade for many years. He knew the maths but he could not
solve the problem. He and his class mates had together tired to tackle
the problem but got nowhere.

I know nothing of commercial building but he explained the terms to me
and I could then understand the problem. I then walked him through step
by step showing him how to apply the maths he knew to this problem.

He went away a happy man not only because he got the answer but more
importantly because he understood how the maths he knew were relevant to
his job and how they were just as useful a set of tools as the physical
ones in his toolbox and now he knows how to use those maths tools too.

That's what NFB101 aims to do in this context.

I make no claims to be a teacher - experienced, effective or otherwise,
but I am pretty certain I make a difference for the better

Cheers

Ian


Sometimes two heads can work out a problem better than one.

But not always, and I'd not want to share a construction
problem solution with Iveson.

I'd spend all day blathering, and get not a brick laid.

I was in building construction between 1965 and 1992.

An older builder said to me, "Boy, if youse ain't got no problems,
youse ain't building nothin."

Another who owned the company I worked for over 10 years
said "The man who makes no mistakes makes nothing."

And one project manager who knew how green I was at 22 said

"Mate, don't speak to me in riddles, say what you mean, and mean what
you say".

I went from him thinking I mustn't ever bull**** again.

I am indebted to their concerns about me, and their guidance,
and their teaching, and forgiveness when I made a mistake and when some
work had to be
un-done, and done right a second time.

When I matured I had apprentices, labourers and sub-foremen working for
me.
And I tried to impart the same learning experience to them I had had.

We all coped better as a result.

The company, Kell and Rigby, is still going after nearly 100 years.

I was one of 75 apprentice carpenters it took on in 1965.
Maybe one or two could be still working for them.

Patrick Turner

[Ian Iveson]

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...
snip a vast amount,


I apologise if you think I have been snooty. I
genuinely
want to get this right.

I'd rather you didn't apologise for what I think, thanks.

There is no way of getting it right. Trust me.

Then Iveson blurts out this utter crap......

Patrick is a case study in the pathos of the blind
handout.
He says that he thinks he posts all that stuff to help
people, then he glows with pride when he is
congratulated,
then when his loyal subjects reveal by their hopeless
questions that they have learned absolutely nothing, he
berates them for being feckless and stupid. It's a
tragedy,
and he's a menace.

I get an average of 450 hits per day at my website.

Melbourne IT, my website hoster told me this the other
day,
and congratualted me on the amount of ppl I attract.

Yes, I got the glowing with pride part right.

Maybe once a fortnight someobdy has a question for me in
an email
about tubecraft. I politely explain if I am able.

You weren't polite to the ones who came here. I don't go to
your site, and can only report my own observations.

Quite a few guys have made amps from the schematics I have
laid out.


I insist they do their own homework though, and learn to
be independant.

Why do they need to do homework to make an amp from your
schematic?

I remember just such a guy who came here, having tried to
make one of your designs, to say he couldn't get it to work.
You told him it was his fault for not reading all your stuff
properly; for consequently not realising that the schematic
was incomplete and not fit for construction, contrary to
your presentation of it. We never heard from him again.

I don't remember you helping anyone. You just set them up
for a fall, then trample.


They all realise I am not going to spoon feed them like a
baby each time
thay cannot figure out something I figured out on my own
with nobody to
ask,
and only a few old books to read, and no PC and no Google.

What Iveson says is utter ********.

My name is Ian. Don't be rude.

Ian (see?)

Amateur

[Patrick Turner]

delete more iveson ramblings...

Maybe once a fortnight someobdy has a question for me in
an email
about tubecraft. I politely explain if I am able.

You weren't polite to the ones who came here. I don't go to
your site, and can only report my own observations.

Iv'e been polite as I need to be.

Of course you would never go to my website.

It took me a year or more to convince you to read RDH4.

Your achievements with tube craft have not been prolific.



,

Quite a few guys have made amps from the schematics I have
laid out.


I insist they do their own homework though, and learn to
be independant.

Why do they need to do homework to make an amp from your
schematic?

Because a schematic does not tell the diyer or commercial operator
all there is to know about building something.

And some ppl can't read schematics very easily.

It takes some experience to be able to.

If there is a network which achieves some outcome on the schematic.
it may not be obvious why to someone not capable of understanding
LCR networks. The schematic doersn't explain the basic, and to
understanhd basics
you must do some homework. Maybe days and weeks of ****ing home ****ing
work.




I remember just such a guy who came here, having tried to
make one of your designs, to say he couldn't get it to work.
You told him it was his fault for not reading all your stuff
properly; for consequently not realising that the schematic
was incomplete and not fit for construction, contrary to
your presentation of it. We never heard from him again.

Just who was it?

People who give up easily after accusing me of incompetent advice
can all find a door to leave right now.

Don't waste my time if you ain't keen to learn by reading, listening,
questioning what you do yourself, and using a soldering iron.

Keen means you stay, but you learn, and ignore the insults.

Please leave if you are easily offended.



I don't remember you helping anyone. You just set them up
for a fall, then trample.

Well, after much reluctance, you did get a copy of RDH4, and I then
didn't have to
correct the BS you were spraying about like priest who hadn't read a
bible.

I should tread on ideas if they have the same level of merit as a
cockroach.
But that makes a mess, so I normally pick the critters up and chuck 'em
outside.

Got foot marks on YOUR forehead have ya?

You deserved them.


They all realise I am not going to spoon feed them like a
baby each time
thay cannot figure out something I figured out on my own
with nobody to
ask,
and only a few old books to read, and no PC and no Google.

What Iveson says is utter ********.

My name is Ian. Don't be rude.

There's more than one Ian here, and for clarity,
I'll call you anything I like, ****in Iveson will do.



I ain't leaving.

Patrick Turner.

Ian (see?)

Amateur

[Iain Churches[_2_]]

"Ian Thompson-Bell" wrote in message
...

That's enough. I will not engage in such a senseless debate. I have much
better things to do with my time. And I shall continue with NFB 101.

Excellent:-)
Iain