Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
#1
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Why Arnie K.'s "-20 db" argument doesn't hold any water
Rating stereo sources at 0 dB is unrealistic, techno-BS.
Real music is dynamic, and is not a steady level. Some sounds can be at -50dB, while others can be at +5dB, at the same time. What you see with regular meters is average levels. With peak meters you see the loudest levels. High frequencies are very low in level in the mix of instruments, when playing live. If a high frequency instrument, such as high percussion were reproduced at 0dB, it would drown out an entire orchestra. So much for rating tape decks and CD players at at "0 dB"- it's not real world. Since music is dynamic and high frequencies are low in level in real life, the decision was made to rate cassette decks at -20dB, to show full frequency response. If cassette decks were rated at 0dB, the high frequency limit would be anywhere between 10kHz - 16kHz, depending on the heads and design. Although some Tandbergs are rated at 0 dB. |
#2
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Why Arnie K.'s "-20 db" argument doesn't hold any water
On Mar 30, 9:37 pm, "duty-honor-country"
wrote: ........ Plonk. |
#3
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Why Arnie K.'s "-20 db" argument doesn't hold any water
On Mar 30, 9:11 pm, wrote:
On Mar 30, 9:37 pm, "duty-honor-country" Plonk. translation: dig hole in sand, insert head |
#4
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Why Arnie K.'s "-20 db" argument doesn't hold any water
"duty-honor-country" wrote
Real music is dynamic, and is not a steady level. Some sounds can be at -50dB, while others can be at +5dB, at the same time. Sure, but you won't hear the stuff at -50 while the +5 is playing due to masking. Try it for yourself in an audio editor program and you'll see. Take an entire song you know well, and reduce its level to -56 dB below digital full scale. Then take another song you know and set the level to peak at -1 dB. This puts them 55 dB apart (your example). Now mix the two together and play the result. How much of the -56 dB song do you hear? --Ethan |
#5
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Why Charlie Nudo's head doesn't hold any water
End stage syphillis.
|
#6
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Why Arnie K.'s "-20 db" argument doesn't hold any water
"duty-honor-country" wrote in message oups.com... Rating stereo sources at 0 dB is unrealistic, techno-BS. Real music is dynamic, and is not a steady level. Some sounds can be at -50dB, while others can be at +5dB, at the same time. What you see with regular meters is average levels. With peak meters you see the loudest levels. High frequencies are very low in level in the mix of instruments, when playing live. If a high frequency instrument, such as high percussion were reproduced at 0dB, it would drown out an entire orchestra. arnii is truely one of the biggest morons who posts and I have no idea what he has poste dto this thread as I killfiled him years ago but your talking out you ass as well but I can clearly see you already know everything, and I already have enough going on so post what you will |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Why Arnie K.'s "-20 db" argument doesn't hold any water
"duty-honor-country" wrote
in message oups.com Thesis: Rating stereo sources at 0 dB is unrealistic, techno-BS. Real music is dynamic, and is not a steady level. Some sounds can be at -50dB, while others can be at +5dB, at the same time. What you see with regular meters is average levels. What's a *regular meter*? There are no general rules about this. Looking at the modern equipment that I used at my last gig, a 21st century *regular meter* portrays both peak and average levels concurrently. With peak meters you see the loudest levels. But a lot of modern equipment has both peak and average meters that display concurrently. There's a problem with music - there are few rules about what someone might want to have an accurate recording of. Audio production equipment isn't designed to handle just average situations, but any situation that has even a very slight real-world probability to it. People have found that there isn't a market for recorders that only work well with average music played by an average symphony orchestra. People want recording equipment that will accurately record just about anything that they are likely to encounter, no matter how slight the probability. High frequencies are very low in level in the mix of instruments, when playing live. Not all the time. If a high frequency instrument, such as high percussion were reproduced at 0dB, it would drown out an entire orchestra. Sometimes the only instrument playing is a high percussion instrument. Sometimes that instrument is played very loud. High-pitched sounds can be deceptive - since the ear's sensitivity decreases rapidly above 4 KHz, instruments with significant output at high frequencies sound less loud then they really are from the standpoint of the dynamic range of equipment. So much for rating tape decks and CD players at at "0 dB"- it's not real world. Actually, just about every modern piece of equipment is rated at some level in the range between 0 dB and -3 dB. -3 dB doesn't help the situation with cassette recorders to speak of. Since music is dynamic and high frequencies are low in level in real life, the decision was made to rate cassette decks at -20dB, to show full frequency response. Nahh, the decision was made to rate cassette recorder FR at -20 dB so that the really scary results that one usually obtains at -10 or 0 wouldn't be exposed to the sensitive eyes of consumers. Just a friendly reminder - I still have that CD with musical sounds that you can try to record/play on the cassette machine of your choice, and re-record with your CD recorder. There's no doubt in my mind that the best cassette machine you can find will cause audible dulling of at least some of the tracks. There are several problems with this theory. If cassette decks were rated at 0dB, the high frequency limit would be anywhere between 10kHz - 16kHz, depending on the heads and design. Although some Tandbergs are rated at 0 dB. |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Why Arnie K.'s "-20 db" argument doesn't hold any water
On Mar 31, 9:24 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
High-pitched sounds can be deceptive - since the ear's sensitivity decreases rapidly above 4 KHz, instruments with significant output at high frequencies sound less loud then they really are from the standpoint of the dynamic range of equipment. Also, high frequencies dissipate faster than low frequencies when traveling through the air. So in the days of recording an orchestra from the best seat in the house, the balance between lows and highs that hits the ear (or the microphone) is different from what occurs on stage. It's the conductor's job to tell the triangle player how loud to play so that the balance is correct for the audience several hundred wavelengths away. While dooby-honoryour-country might be correct that there isn't a lot of high frequency energy 'way out there, and a 2-track recorder might be able to get away with skimpy performance at high frequencies at high levels, with today's recording techniques of close miking and desire to record close to the maximum permissible level (for whatever reason), being able to record high frequencies at full level becomes a requirement. Dolby HX (which was developed long after the Elcassette went into the Sony Museum of Product Failures) helps this somewhat and is found in some high end cassette recorders today. Granted that not a lot of cassette recorders are being used today for multitrack recordings to be mixed later, those that are would fail badly. This is why digital "multitrackers" for amateur hobbyists became so popular so quickly. For this kind of work, they sounded better than the cassettes that preceded them, and cost much less than wider track higher speed multitrack recorders that have adequate high frequency headroom. And even at the 2-track end of the scale, there are many forms of modern music that have extended high frequency range that requires more high frequency headroom. |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
Why Arnie K.'s "-20 db" argument doesn't hold any water
In article . com,
duty-honor-country wrote: meaningless stuff about decibels without respect to a reference level You might want to actually get an elementary audio textbook and learn what a decibel is. This will prevent you from making so much of a fool of yourself in the future. Basic hint: a decibel is not a unit. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
Reply |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
PART TWO "SET dogma maximizes distortion" -- Arnie Krueger Lie No 51291 | Audio Opinions | |||
PART TWO "SET dogma maximizes distortion" -- Arnie Krueger Lie No 51291 | Vacuum Tubes | |||
"AKAI", "KURZWEIL", "ROLAND", DVDs and CDs | Audio Opinions | |||
"SET dogma maximizes distortion" -- Arnie Krueger Lie No 51291 | Vacuum Tubes | |||
"SET dogma maximizes distortion" -- Arnie Krueger Lie No 51291 | Audio Opinions |