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honestguvnor honestguvnor is offline
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Default The usage of the word audiophile

On Mar 30, 9:24 pm, "bob" wrote:

Then you're probably looking in the wrong place. Try MySpace.


I am seeking information from those that are informed about
audiophiles but are not "subjective audiophiles". Such people are a
significant proportion of the people here but they are not in MySpace.
The problem is that such people almost always ignore everything to do
with audiophiles.

You want to define audiophile?


I am happy enough with much of what I know on that topic at least to
the point of considering rewriting the article. It is the usage of the
word where I recognise my knowledge is lacking and it needs to be
there in the first few paragraphs.

Out of curiosity, what do you see as wrong with the Wikipedia
definition as it stands now? Granted, it's a muddle, but how could it
be anything else, given the nature of the topic?


It is indeed a muddle but the article also fails to emphasise what is
remarkable about audiophiles compared with other enthusiasts for
technical equipment like cars and computers and the like. It also says
nothing about the history, origins or how the scientifically incorrect
beliefs are sustained in the face of knowledge from science, the other
audio sectors and, to a fair degree, common sense.

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Laurence Payne Laurence Payne is offline
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Default The usage of the word audiophile

On 31 Mar 2007 00:25:12 -0700, "honestguvnor"
wrote:


It is indeed a muddle but the article also fails to emphasise what is
remarkable about audiophiles compared with other enthusiasts for
technical equipment like cars and computers and the like. It also says
nothing about the history, origins or how the scientifically incorrect
beliefs are sustained in the face of knowledge from science, the other
audio sectors and, to a fair degree, common sense.


It happens in cars and computers to. Plenty of drivers spend as much
time polishing their cars as driving them. And there's a small but
robust market in such things as magic fuel-economy devices, backed up
with bad science. Some computer users decorate their cases with
pretty lights and fill their systems with utilities that merely
duplicate Windows functions. Then there's the "Macs are friendly"
myth (quite distinct from any technical differences between the
platforms.)
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Default The usage of the word audiophile

On Mar 31, 12:16 pm, Laurence Payne

It happens in cars and computers to. Plenty of drivers spend as much
time polishing their cars as driving them. And there's a small but
robust market in such things as magic fuel-economy devices, backed up
with bad science. Some computer users decorate their cases with
pretty lights and fill their systems with utilities that merely
duplicate Windows functions. Then there's the "Macs are friendly"
myth (quite distinct from any technical differences between the
platforms.)


Whatever their skewed preferences, enthusiasts in these sectors are
interested in the technical performance of the objects of their
enthusiasm. They may give excessive weight to measures of performance
like their equivalent hi-fi enthusiasts sometimes did in the 70s with
0.001% versus 0.0005% THD specifications. But these are real measures
even if they are not particularly relevant to the function of the
device.

The audiophile sector is quite different in largely suppressing the
technical performance of a technical device in favour of perceived/
promoted performance. The enthusiasts are often quite strongly opposed
to measuring technical performance.

The magic fuel-economy devices are not being promoted by the
mainstream auto press which also does not derive much of its income
from the advertising of such products. The situation was the same with
audiophile products in the 60s and early 70s in that they existed in
the small ads but were ignored by the mainstream press and not stocked
in the shops in the high street.

The audiophile sector is unusual because scientifically incorrect
beliefs are mainstream and promoted in order to sell the product. A
fairly close equivalent is alternative medicine although this is not
usually a hobby interest.

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Harry Lavo Harry Lavo is offline
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Default The usage of the word audiophile


"honestguvnor" wrote in message
ps.com...
On Mar 31, 12:16 pm, Laurence Payne

It happens in cars and computers to. Plenty of drivers spend as much
time polishing their cars as driving them. And there's a small but
robust market in such things as magic fuel-economy devices, backed up
with bad science. Some computer users decorate their cases with
pretty lights and fill their systems with utilities that merely
duplicate Windows functions. Then there's the "Macs are friendly"
myth (quite distinct from any technical differences between the
platforms.)


Whatever their skewed preferences, enthusiasts in these sectors are
interested in the technical performance of the objects of their
enthusiasm. They may give excessive weight to measures of performance
like their equivalent hi-fi enthusiasts sometimes did in the 70s with
0.001% versus 0.0005% THD specifications. But these are real measures
even if they are not particularly relevant to the function of the
device.

The audiophile sector is quite different in largely suppressing the
technical performance of a technical device in favour of perceived/
promoted performance. The enthusiasts are often quite strongly opposed
to measuring technical performance.


Not opposed to measurement for the most part; opposed to the belief that the
conventional measurements tell the whole story. There is also a
philosophical issue: whether the ultimate goal of an hi-fi system is to
accurately reproduce the source (tape, hard disk, vinyl, whatever) or
whether it is to give the most "realistic" (eg. suspension of disbelief)
rendering of the performance therein, as it squares up against remembered
live sound.


The magic fuel-economy devices are not being promoted by the
mainstream auto press which also does not derive much of its income
from the advertising of such products. The situation was the same with
audiophile products in the 60s and early 70s in that they existed in
the small ads but were ignored by the mainstream press and not stocked
in the shops in the high street.

The audiophile sector is unusual because scientifically incorrect
beliefs are mainstream and promoted in order to sell the product. A
fairly close equivalent is alternative medicine although this is not
usually a hobby interest.


Again, this is a bit of a strawman. If you look at an issue of TAS, or
Stereophile, or the UK mags....mostly what you see are ads for amps,
preamps, AV receivers, cd players, universal players....not much different
than these same mags in the '60's and '70's (I still have a fair share of
these). In the rear of these mags you find mostly small ads for
dealers..also true years ago, but not as much. The only real difference
you'll see (other than cd and universal players substituting for some tape
recorders) is some ads for cables. And frankly, cables are more a factor in
dealer profits than they are in magazine profits.

Also, I haven't heard of anybody going broke buying cables. Whether you
believe they affect sound or not, expensive cables tend to be bought by
those who can afford them...and they may have aesthetic and pride of
ownership reasons for that beyond pure sound issues.


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William Sommerwerck William Sommerwerck is offline
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Default The usage of the word audiophile

The audiophile sector is quite different in largely suppressing the
technical performance of a technical device in favour of perceived/
promoted performance. The enthusiasts are often quite strongly
opposed to measuring technical performance.


What's the point of measuring something if the measurements don't correlate
with what you hear?

To put this the other way 'round... Are you saying that an amp with 0.02%
harmonic distortion at full output will necessarily sound better than one
with 0.2%?




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William Sommerwerck William Sommerwerck is offline
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There is also a philosophical issue: whether the ultimate goal
of an hi-fi system is to accurately reproduce the source (tape,
hard disk, vinyl, whatever) or whether it is to give the most
"realistic" (eg. suspension of disbelief) rendering of the
performance therein, as it squares up against remembered
live sound.


These goals are not inconsistent or incompatible.


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honestguvnor honestguvnor is offline
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On Mar 31, 3:34 pm, "Harry Lavo" wrote:

The audiophile sector is unusual because scientifically incorrect
beliefs are mainstream and promoted in order to sell the product. A
fairly close equivalent is alternative medicine although this is not
usually a hobby interest.


Again, this is a bit of a strawman. If you look at an issue of TAS, or
Stereophile, or the UK mags....mostly what you see are ads for amps,
preamps, AV receivers, cd players, universal players....not much different
than these same mags in the '60's and '70's (I still have a fair share of
these).


I was referring to the content promoting unscientific beliefs not the
adverts.


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On Mar 31, 3:50 pm, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:
The audiophile sector is quite different in largely suppressing the
technical performance of a technical device in favour of perceived/
promoted performance. The enthusiasts are often quite strongly
opposed to measuring technical performance.


What's the point of measuring something if the measurements don't correlate
with what you hear?


An engineer or scientist takes measurements in order to reason about
what is going on. The marketing people use (some of) them in order to
promote the products. Journalists use them for a range of reasons. All
are using them to serve their purposes.

If you want to know what correlates with what you hear then that is
what should be measured. The sound impinging on the ear is easy enough
to measure and subjective impressions in controlled listening
experiments are not difficult to measure either. However, measuring
the ever changing factors influencing an individual's sound perception
outside a controlled listening environment is very difficult.

I think the problem here maybe that you are not separating the role a
device may play in influencing the sound impinging on your ears and
the role it may then play in your brain's interpretation of that sound
along with, of course, a whole bunch of other factors.

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"honestguvnor" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Mar 31, 3:50 pm, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:
The audiophile sector is quite different in largely suppressing the
technical performance of a technical device in favour of perceived/
promoted performance. The enthusiasts are often quite strongly
opposed to measuring technical performance.


What's the point of measuring something if the measurements don't
correlate
with what you hear?


An engineer or scientist takes measurements in order to reason about
what is going on. The marketing people use (some of) them in order to
promote the products. Journalists use them for a range of reasons. All
are using them to serve their purposes.

If you want to know what correlates with what you hear then that is
what should be measured. The sound impinging on the ear is easy enough
to measure and subjective impressions in controlled listening
experiments are not difficult to measure either. However, measuring
the ever changing factors influencing an individual's sound perception
outside a controlled listening environment is very difficult.

I think the problem here maybe that you are not separating the role a
device may play in influencing the sound impinging on your ears and
the role it may then play in your brain's interpretation of that sound
along with, of course, a whole bunch of other factors.


No, the problem is that audiophiles are consumers, not scientists. To do a
careful, fully controlled blind listening test suitable for the open-ended
evaluation of audio quality between two components is a difficult and
time-consuming task (it is easy to do a quick and dirty one using the wrong
test tools, simply to prove their is "no difference"). A rigorous test can
be done by scientists if they desire; it is beyond a reasonable expectation
of the audiophile purchasing equipment, or simply listening for enjoyment.
To denigrate and castigate audiophiles because they use sighted and
long-term listening as standards is just foolish.


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"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
There is also a philosophical issue: whether the ultimate goal
of an hi-fi system is to accurately reproduce the source (tape,
hard disk, vinyl, whatever) or whether it is to give the most
"realistic" (eg. suspension of disbelief) rendering of the
performance therein, as it squares up against remembered
live sound.


These goals are not inconsistent or incompatible.


Some people consider them so (I do not, personally).




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"honestguvnor" wrote in message
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On Mar 31, 3:34 pm, "Harry Lavo" wrote:

The audiophile sector is unusual because scientifically incorrect
beliefs are mainstream and promoted in order to sell the product. A
fairly close equivalent is alternative medicine although this is not
usually a hobby interest.


Again, this is a bit of a strawman. If you look at an issue of TAS, or
Stereophile, or the UK mags....mostly what you see are ads for amps,
preamps, AV receivers, cd players, universal players....not much
different
than these same mags in the '60's and '70's (I still have a fair share of
these).


I was referring to the content promoting unscientific beliefs not the
adverts.


Could you spell out what you believe those are, and why you perceive them as
unscientific?


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Laurence Payne Laurence Payne is offline
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On 31 Mar 2007 06:13:01 -0700, "honestguvnor"
wrote:

The audiophile sector is unusual because scientifically incorrect
beliefs are mainstream and promoted in order to sell the product. A
fairly close equivalent is alternative medicine although this is not
usually a hobby interest.


I know people who treat alternative theraies as a hobby :-)

Anyway. Wasn't this about editing the Wikipedia entry on Audiophiles?
Not a good idea to do this from a partisan viewpoint - someone will
just edit it back. If you want to present your manifesto why not
start a new topic? "Audiophools" perhaps?
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On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 09:34:38 -0400, "Harry Lavo"
wrote:

The audiophile sector is quite different in largely suppressing the
technical performance of a technical device in favour of perceived/
promoted performance. The enthusiasts are often quite strongly opposed
to measuring technical performance.


Not opposed to measurement for the most part; opposed to the belief that the
conventional measurements tell the whole story.


See
www.laurencepayne.co.uk/cables.html for my encounter with one
mainstream British Hi-Fi comic which completely disdains technical
measurement.
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On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 06:50:22 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

The audiophile sector is quite different in largely suppressing the
technical performance of a technical device in favour of perceived/
promoted performance. The enthusiasts are often quite strongly
opposed to measuring technical performance.


What's the point of measuring something if the measurements don't correlate
with what you hear?


Because establishing that one parameter DOESN'T make a difference gets
you one step closer to finding the parameter that DOES.
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